kbb Posted March 17, 2013 Posted March 17, 2013 Have a rising senior, who needs British Literature to graduate. The student in question writes well and is currently taking composition classes at a local community college. He is self-directed. Doesn't care for literature. This is going to be one of those get it done courses. Looking for suggestions... have been thinking perhaps there may be an open course online. All suggestions are much appreciated! Quote
3andme Posted March 17, 2013 Posted March 17, 2013 In the just get it done category, there's Smarr, LLATL gold, Lightning Lit, Sonlight, LIFEPAC, or EIL. There's also the TC's Classics of Brit. Lit.. Quote
cbollin Posted March 17, 2013 Posted March 17, 2013 My cover school wants to see us do "some Brit Lit" in 12th grade too even though we covered a lot of Brit Lit in 10th grade. If you have a non lit liking student, who needs to "get it done".one more option might be. Perfection Learning's British Literature parallel text http://www.perfectionlearning.com/parallel-text-brit-lit I know MFW sells it on their WHL page (they use it with other stuff) https://www.mfwbooks.com/products/M50/50/10/0/1 (yes, go ahead and get the teacher book with it. makes it easier to check the review questions) since I already used that book in 10th grade, I'm consider LLATL Gold (mentioned in other post by 3andme). It picks up in time frames where the Perfect Publishing Brit Lit anthology left off. Quote
swimmermom3 Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 Have a rising senior, who needs British Literature to graduate. The student in question writes well and is currently taking composition classes at a local community college. He is self-directed. Doesn't care for literature. This is going to be one of those get it done courses. Looking for suggestions... have been thinking perhaps there may be an open course online. All suggestions are much appreciated! There are very bright students who don't like literature, and for those students the last thing you want to do is throw a lukewarm lit program at them. What kind of things does your student like to read? Do they have a sense of humor? Does the work need to be simple or sophisticated? How much help do you need as the teacher? Are you willing to discuss the books with your student, which means you should be willing to read the book or at least look at Cliff Notes or Pink Monkey? What kind of literature classes have they taken in the past? All of that information helps us give you a better answer. Quote
Harriet Vane Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 There are very bright students who don't like literature, and for those students the last thing you want to do is throw a lukewarm lit program at them. What kind of things does your student like to read? Do they have a sense of humor? Does the work need to be simple or sophisticated? How much help do you need as the teacher? Are you willing to discuss the books with your student, which means you should be willing to read the book or at least look at Cliff Notes or Pink Monkey? What kind of literature classes have they taken in the past? All of that information helps us give you a better answer. :iagree: A lukewarm lit program will kill any enjoyment even more. Tell us more about your student and perhaps we can come up with some more specific answers. Quote
jhschool Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 What about just reading some great books? And for every book write 3-5 literary essays (3-5 pages). You can get topics for essays from the web or just make the topics up (compare & contrast, how does the author's background influence such and such, explore the motives of such and such a character, talk about the symbolism in the book, talk about the history of the book, etc.) For a year-long course, you could do: Beowulf Le Morte D'Arthur The Tempest Henry V Robinson Crusoe Pride & Prejudice Oliver Twist Jane Eyre or Wuthering Heights A Study In Scarlet Maybe this is too much? Anyway, all these are free online. Quote
cbollin Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 so,(curious here)....What are the defining characteristics of "lukewarm" program? what does that mean to those using that term? Quote
swimmermom3 Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 so,(curious here)....What are the defining characteristics of "lukewarm" program? what does that mean to those using that term? For me, a "lukewarm" program can be at both ends of the spectrum. There are programs/teachers that flog a work to death. These use those pre-reading questions like: "What do you know now about the Iliad?" "What would you like to know about the Iliad?" The student annotates the heck out of each page, sucking all metaphors and similes dry. There are comprehension (regurgitation) questions for every book/chapter. These programs are guaranteed to make sure the student would rather poke his eyes out than even so much as touch that book again.They usually trivialize a Great Book which is problematic because Great Books tend to be written around Great Ideas that are central to the human experience. There are also programs that are something along the lines of "British Literature Survey - lite." The student moves rapidly through a simplistic text (often parallel) that is an anthology, which will also have a brief author autobiography and maybe one aspect of the "literary lens" to focus on. They are definitely "just get it over with" courses, where the student gets a bit of everything, but little of substance. Quote
cbollin Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 There are also programs that are something along the lines of "British Literature Survey - lite." The student moves rapidly through a simplistic text (often parallel) that is an anthology, which will also have a brief author autobiography and maybe one aspect of the "literary lens" to focus on. They are definitely "just get it over with" courses, where the student gets a bit of everything, but little of substance. thanks for explaining. I hadn't heard that term applied to this before. yep, the book I suggested falls in that category as anthology with parallel text for the medieval/renaissance stuff. This is separate from the original question..... MFW uses the longer texts and full novels when possible, and uses the specific book I mentioned as a breather between some of the longer novels so that it doesn't get to the level of the other way it can be lukewarm. I probably should be embarrassed, but I actually like the survey anthology books for me. (all things in moderation, right?) Didn't feel like nothing of substance, maybe not as heavy as a full course. but then again I didn't like AP English as a student either. LOL. Quote
bobbeym Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 For me, a "lukewarm" program can be at both ends of the spectrum. There are programs/teachers that flog a work to death. These use those pre-reading questions like: "What do you know now about the Iliad?" "What would you like to know about the Iliad?" The student annotates the heck out of each page, sucking all metaphors and similes dry. There are comprehension (regurgitation) questions for every book/chapter. These programs are guaranteed to make sure the student would rather poke his eyes out than even so much as touch that book again.They usually trivialize a Great Book which is problematic because Great Books tend to be written around Great Ideas that are central to the human experience. Forgive me for asking what might be considered a stupid question on the boards, but why would a program like this be considered "lukewarm" rather than in depth? Even if you never wanted to read it again, wouldn't it at least result in an in depth knowledge of the book? If you don't go the route of eyeball gouging questions, how would you do an in depth lit program? Quote
Sebastian (a lady) Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 My cover school wants to see us do "some Brit Lit" in 12th grade too even though we covered a lot of Brit Lit in 10th grade. If you have a non lit liking student, who needs to "get it done".one more option might be. Perfection Learning's British Literature parallel text http://www.perfectio...l-text-brit-lit I know MFW sells it on their WHL page (they use it with other stuff) https://www.mfwbooks...s/M50/50/10/0/1 (yes, go ahead and get the teacher book with it. makes it easier to check the review questions) since I already used that book in 10th grade, I'm consider LLATL Gold (mentioned in other post by 3andme). It picks up in time frames where the Perfect Publishing Brit Lit anthology left off. Feel free to assign whatever labels you like to this comment, but I have deep, deep reservations about using a parallel text for anything more recent than Shakespeare. Even with Shakespeare, I'd rather see a student read a retelling and watch the original or read an original with heavy glossing. I think the parallel text versions very quickly become the crutch, with the student only glancing at the original, rather than using the paraphrase as a help. There are lots of shorter pieces that you could do, without having to resort to a paraphrase. Look at shorter poems, short stories, diary entries and essays. Read sections of a work (such as Gulliver among the Lilliputians). I know that some major homeschool curriculum vendors sell parallel Shakespeare texts. I just don't think that most students need them. ETA: I was going to come back and say that I was generally ok with the idea of a parallel text for things like Beowulf and Canterbury Tales, because they were written in what is considered an old enough version of English to actually be a different language (Old English and Middle English). But that isn't what the linked book does. It has a translation of Beowulf that is pretty readable as is, and then a retelling in a more prose version that (to my ears, at least) doesn't seem to do much other than strip the left hand side translation of its meter. So I can see that there would be students who would struggle with what was going on in the story. I don't see that the parallel text is going to be that helpful for them. And I really object to the idea of parallel texting poetry that generally uses modern language. What do you gain from a parallel text of To Lucasta on Going to the Wars or A Modest Proposal? (Having been woo'd with Lovelace, I don't want to know how "I could not love you, dear, so much/Loved I not honor more." would become. Quote
Sebastian (a lady) Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 Forgive me for asking what might be considered a stupid question on the boards, but why would a program like this be considered "lukewarm" rather than in depth? Even if you never wanted to read it again, wouldn't it at least result in an in depth knowledge of the book? If you don't go the route of eyeball gouging questions, how would you do an in depth lit program? You can read a book and consider some of the aspects of the story and technique that provide its depth without dissecting every, single metaphor and symbol and allusion on every single page. You talk about themes and maybe symbolism with one story and characterization with another and conflict/plot with yet another. That might let you leave the books as a living work that the student might come back to someday, with different eyes. Quote
cbollin Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 Feel free to assign whatever labels you like to this comment, but I have deep, deep reservations about using a parallel text for anything more recent than Shakespeare. I just want to make sure that the negative feelings that people have for the general use of parallel text isn't somehow transferred to mfw curriculum because they use it as one tool in the midst of full works. It is not the only thing they use. ;) I agree that my brilliant genius bright oldest didn't necessarily need it, but she still enjoyed the anthology feel as a breather from other stuff. Quote
swimmermom3 Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 You can read a book and consider some of the aspects of the story and technique that provide its depth without dissecting every, single metaphor and symbol and allusion on every single page. You talk about themes and maybe symbolism with one story and characterization with another and conflict/plot with yet another. That might let you leave the books as a living work that the student might come back to someday, with different eyes. Thanks, Sebastian. This is how we approach most of our reading for high school with the part in bold as one of the goals to keep in mind. When I wrote the comments about the two extremes of "lukewarm" literary analysis, I was thinking about my two older kids. My dd had a class her sophomore year where she did the "flog it to death"method. For bright kids that like literature, this can feel condescending and stifling. I think dd had to have something like 5 carpe notes for every page. "Mom, not every page is worth 5 carpe notes!" She actually ended up taking a small pad of sticky notes and making the same five or six generic comments - one on each page. Then if a page fell short of "real" notes, she'd slap the extra notes in place. She wasn't checked on the quality of her annotations, just the quantity. Exercises like this or comprehension questions are often used to see if the student did the work, not necessarily if the student gets the work. It's relatively easy to teach kids to identify literary elements; it's not so easy sometimes to get them to really think about a book in a big way. The best curriculum I have ever found that consistently delivers in-depth results is the read-it-with- them and talk about it method. What I am looking for from our literary choices at this age is that moment in a long car ride where you think the kid is listening to his music and he pipes up with, "Mom, you know in the Iliad where Hera is trying to seduce Zeus and he in turn is being really stupid? Well, I've been thinking that the reason that scene is in there is..." I almost never ask a kid that horrid question of "How does this book relate to your own life?" But if you talk enough about a book, your kid might tell you that Achilles' eventual disillusionment with glory through war looks a bit like a young family friend who has served in the military for three years and returned from overseas duty recently. Ds the elder is the one who did British Lit Lite. He did it through our state's virtual school and they used this anthology from Perfection Learning. If pressed, I might use this text for a 9th grader, but probably never for the upper grades. The parts that have a parallel text are poorly done and I agree with another of Sebastian's posts that these often end up being a crutch. The parallel that bothered me the most was the one for Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal. Swift's style of writing and word choice is what gives this work its obscene charm. Remove those elements and you remove what is compelling about A Modest Proposal. And I have yet to meet a teen who needs written prompts to discuss the implications of this piece. Teens are far from dumb and often understand way more about life and literature than we give them credit for. Quote
swimmermom3 Posted March 18, 2013 Posted March 18, 2013 I just want to make sure that the negative feelings that people have for the general use of parallel text isn't somehow transferred to mfw curriculum because they use it as one tool in the midst of full works. It is not the only thing they use. ;) I agree that my brilliant genius bright oldest didn't necessarily need it, but she still enjoyed the anthology feel as a breather from other stuff. The use of an anthology in this case makes perfect sense. Also, if I knew that a student struggled with reading and had never listened to or read for themselves more challenging work, I might use a parallel text, but that's a big might. I should add that if it looks like I have a prejudice against Perfection Learning texts, I do and part of that is due to the very poor design of the class my ds took that utilized the text. I find anthologies to be most helpful when I can't decide if a student will be interested in a text. I let my youngest ds read a short passage from The Inferno and he liked it so much that he chose to get a copy of the book and read it. It is one of his all-time favorites and this boy does not read willingly. Quote
cbollin Posted March 19, 2013 Posted March 19, 2013 Lisa, your dd's sophomore class sounds like my own experience in 10th grade. no wonder I hated literature by 12th grade AP. LOL. and looks like 2 different books we're talking about with Perfection. I'm sorry my suggestion brought back such bad memories of a poorly designed class. oh DWTS is on... who cares on literature discussions. knowing my oldest? she'll end up reading a bunch of Sherlock Holmes and HG Wells to meet her brit lit supplement requirement..... to the original poster.... this is kinda normal around here where we all get in side track talking to each other on topics. sorry for totally hijacking. Quote
Sebastian (a lady) Posted March 19, 2013 Posted March 19, 2013 I do like anthologies for lit, especially Brit Lit, where so many incredible pieces are poems that might fit on a page or two. I might do a couple stories from Canterbury Tales, a Shakespere, some Romantic poets, A Christmas Carol, maybe some Stevenson like Jekyll & Hyde, Sherlock Holmes, a section of Gulliver's Travels and maybe a bit of Agatha Christie and 1984 to finish. You could do a lot more of course but I think that would give a smattering and yet not overwhelm. If you could get away with it I'd add a Jane Austin and Frankenstein. Quote
Julie in MN Posted March 19, 2013 Posted March 19, 2013 You can read a book and consider some of the aspects of the story and technique that provide its depth without dissecting every, single metaphor and symbol and allusion on every single page. You talk about themes and maybe symbolism with one story and characterization with another and conflict/plot with yet another. That might let you leave the books as a living work that the student might come back to someday, with different eyes. :iagree: Sure, some folks benefit from the original, maybe they learn Greek in order to read Homer or the New Testament, not trusting a translator. Others seek translators even for some forms of American English , trusting the translator to give them what they need. But if the student doesn't care for literature, then British literature might have more appeal to a high school boy if "translated." For some kids, more educational ground will be covered if there aren't language distractions. When I read originals to my son, I get all excited about how cool it is to hear a voice from the past, but I assure you that he doesn't :sleep: On the other hand, when he starts talking about car engines or weightlifting routines or functions in math or national debt statistics, I might be caught yawning. We all don't have to know every jot, thank goodness. Of course, I am the teacher and so I choose to give him some exposure, especially when meter is important (poetry, Shakespeare), or when I am just crazy about the beauty of the language, or when I want to step up his reading comprehension. But if I want my son to examine the content, to be well educated about what things say, then modern English is very helpful at our house. If I don't have something in modern English, I sometimes find myself doing the translating as I read (e.g. when we recently read the Narrative of Mary Rowlandson, which he thought could have been summed up in a couple of sentences), and I'm just not as good at it as a professional translator might have been. Julie Quote
Sebastian (a lady) Posted March 19, 2013 Posted March 19, 2013 I do like anthologies for lit, especially Brit Lit, where so many incredible pieces are poems that might fit on a page or two. I might do a couple stories from Canterbury Tales, a Shakespere, some Romantic poets, A Christmas Carol, maybe some Stevenson like Jekyll & Hyde, Sherlock Holmes, a section of Gulliver's Travels and maybe a bit of Agatha Christie and 1984 to finish. You could do a lot more of course but I think that would give a smattering and yet not overwhelm. If you could get away with it I'd add a Jane Austin and Frankenstein. I like the old editions of Adventures in English Literature as an anthology. I found a site with most of the selections as links. http://everything2.com/title/Adventures+in+English+Literature Quote
Sebastian (a lady) Posted March 19, 2013 Posted March 19, 2013 I like the old editions of Adventures in English Literature as an anthology. I found a site with most of the selections as links. http://everything2.com/title/Adventures+in+English+Literature I also found this reader which seems to have pretty good contents. Excerpts of long works. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0195077296/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1363699010&sr=8-9&pi=SL75 Quote
bobbeym Posted March 19, 2013 Posted March 19, 2013 You can read a book and consider some of the aspects of the story and technique that provide its depth without dissecting every, single metaphor and symbol and allusion on every single page. You talk about themes and maybe symbolism with one story and characterization with another and conflict/plot with yet another. That might let you leave the books as a living work that the student might come back to someday, with different eyes. Ahhh, okay, that makes sense. I definiately need to go back through DD's British Lit curric and cut stuff from her study guides then. It was my first attempt at creating my own curric and while she said it was fine, I've always had my doubts about it being too much. ETA her readings for this year: Beowolf Canterbury Tales Sir Gawain and the Green Knight Macbeth The Time Machine Paradise Lost Pride and Prejudice Frankenstein Quote
Nicole M Posted March 19, 2013 Posted March 19, 2013 Just want to pipe in here with two other thoughts. Sometimes a student who doesn't like literature will totally get into an audio version. My younger son is quite conversant about all of Jane Austen's works because we've listened to them during the summer, read by some "meh" readers (on Librivox) and some read by professionals, quite good. We didn't "study" those works, per se, but he gets references and allusions for having heard them. Hearing British literature read by an actual Brit can liven things up for some students. Like Lisa, I find anthologies helpful, and for the same reason. I can read a bit of something to my son, see if it hooks him, and then we rustle up the text in its entirety (if only an excerpt is provided — the anthology we're using now is HUGE, ten pounds, so not comfy for snuggling up). Another benefit that I'm finding with an anthology is that sometimes a works written in different times and cultures are closely related, informed, inspired, etc., and the folks compiling the text will put interesting pieces next to each other. So, for instance, in our world literature course we read a translation of a Spanish poem about Lot's wife, right after reading some Biblical texts. That led to some great conversation. (Including but not limited to, "Mother. Have you noticed that many of the women in the Bible aren't named, or are not given name?" Mmm-Hmm. "Pillar of salt... What a way to go!") Now I'm all excited about a year of British Literature. ETA: Looking through the anthologies that Sebastian linked reminded me of something else. Some of you may be too young to remember card catalogues, but, gosh, how fun they were! Not only did they smell lovely, but you could flip through and see which authors, which topic, which works were related, and I sure learned a lot that way. I think the same is true of anthologies. If we read one great work at a time, even if we do all that research about what was going on at the same time, it's still useful to read the actual works that were around at the same time. Of course, my bias is that I'm trying to help my children establish habits of inquiry, and I use any means available to me. (Why can't I find a "wink" emoticon?) Quote
Nicole M Posted March 19, 2013 Posted March 19, 2013 One other quick thought. This year I decided to take it downtown every time my son tried his obstreperous resistance to literature. So I let him hate it, and dig in, explain why. Why does this annoy you? And with our anthology, a standard high school world literature text, we are delighting in ripping it to shreds. "Ah. Academic vocabulary! Honey, do you know what a 'thicket' is?" "Mother, please. Stop. You're hurting me." What I'm trying to do here is get him to move past the disdain and attitude that prevent him from engaging, and use that energy to help him engage. Does that make sense? I guess I'm saying that it's sometimes helpful to know why a student does "like" a subject. Quote
Sebastian (a lady) Posted March 19, 2013 Posted March 19, 2013 One other quick thought. This year I decided to take it downtown every time my son tried his obstreperous resistance to literature. So I let him hate it, and dig in, explain why. Why does this annoy you? And with our anthology, a standard high school world literature text, we are delighting in ripping it to shreds. "Ah. Academic vocabulary! Honey, do you know what a 'thicket' is?" "Mother, please. Stop. You're hurting me." What I'm trying to do here is get him to move past the disdain and attitude that prevent him from engaging, and use that energy to help him engage. Does that make sense? I guess I'm saying that it's sometimes helpful to know why a student does "like" a subject. It can also help to show a student that they can use tools of literary criticsm to demonstrate why a book just doesn't work. Maybe the characters are shallowly drawn, maybe it relies too much on plot contrivances or over tweaking of heartstrings, maybe it ignores plot conventions like Checkov's Gun (Downton Abbey conclusion anyone? Not that I'm bitter, but ...) Maybe it has horribly mixed metaphors or trite similes (assuming it isn't Shakespeare, which often seems trite because it is so often quoted). On and on. Use the tools of literary critique as a means to dissect a work that isn't immediately pleasing. Quote
Julie in MN Posted March 19, 2013 Posted March 19, 2013 maybe it ignores plot conventions like Checkov's Gun (Downton Abbey conclusion anyone? Not that I'm bitter, but ...) LOL Quote
swimmermom3 Posted March 19, 2013 Posted March 19, 2013 This year I decided to take it downtown every time my son tried his obstreperous resistance to literature. So I let him hate it, and dig in, explain why. Why does this annoy you? And with our anthology, a standard high school world literature text, we are delighting in ripping it to shreds. "Ah. Academic vocabulary! Honey, do you know what a 'thicket' is?" "Mother, please. Stop. You're hurting me." What I'm trying to do here is get him to move past the disdain and attitude that prevent him from engaging, and use that energy to help him engage. Does that make sense? I guess I'm saying that it's sometimes helpful to know why a student does "like" a subject. I just can't picture that charming, compliant younger son of yours doing any of this. Surely you jest? :svengo: No? Actually, I can picture it all too easily. :D Thanks for the laugh. I don't suppose he would like to discuss REd Badge of Courage with my youngest? That book wins the "Most Loathed" award with all three of my kids - for different reasons. Quote
Sebastian (a lady) Posted March 19, 2013 Posted March 19, 2013 I just can't picture that charming, compliant younger son of yours doing any of this. Surely you jest? :svengo: No? Actually, I can picture it all too easily. :D Thanks for the laugh. I don't suppose he would like to discuss REd Badge of Courage with my youngest? That book wins the "Most Loathed" award with all three of my kids - for different reasons. We did a big Civil War study over the summer and fall. One day I told my son he had to read Red Badge of Courage. He gave me a puzzled look and asked what on earth it had to do with the Civil War. Then I looked puzzled. Finally I realized that he thought it was some kind of Chinese revolutionary agitprop. Quote
swimmermom3 Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 Ahhh, okay, that makes sense. I definiately need to go back through DD's British Lit curric and cut stuff from her study guides then. It was my first attempt at creating my own curric and while she said it was fine, I've always had my doubts about it being too much. ETA her readings for this year: Beowolf Canterbury Tales Sir Gawain and the Green Knight Macbeth The Time Machine Paradise Lost Pride and Prejudice Frankenstein This looks like a good year. You can also weave some poetry and essays between major works. If you are interested, somewhere I have a cool mini-study that ties Beowulf, a famous painting, and contemporary British poet, U. S. Fanthorpe together. For Beowulf, you both might enjoy listening to Seamus Heaney read his translation. Do it on a crummy night by the fire in candlelight if possible. Remember that it was a performance piece. Make the works breathe when you can, and great discussions follow. Have a blast. Quote
kbb Posted March 22, 2013 Author Posted March 22, 2013 Thank you, Ladies! Your input is much appreciated. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.