WHY is there such a focus on copy work and dictation?

[mysticmomma]

My dd is a reluctant writer and we have let writing go. She is a rising third grader and narrates well, reads, spells, etc. We hated fll 1 and have heard 2 and up are better although I don't see me adding it back soon. Can someone chime in on the whys?

[tinkbaby]

If the copy-work & dictation seems to be too much for your daughter, you could always skip some of the lessons, or combine 2 lessons into 1 (it's pretty common I think, esp. when using FLL w/ WWE).

[mysticmomma]

But why do we do it?

[Rosie_0801]

Oh goodness. There's a mega-thread about that. I hope somebody can find and link it.

[Rosie_0801]

Found it: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/255841-crosspost-why-you-should-work-on-twtm-skills-narration-dictation-outlining-etc/page__hl__+nan%20+mass%20+copywork#entry2554897

[mysticmomma]

Thank you! I've been googling my ears out.

[SilverMoon]

There's a pretty good explanation from SWB in TWTM, and it's even further fleshed out in the hardback WWE instructor text.

[fourisenough]

Because it works. Without filling out endless worksheets (which are of limited effectiveness at best), your child can see how proper grammar looks and sounds. It is, IMHO, the simplest way to introduce the 'rules of the game' of the English language, by having them closely study, copy, and write well-crafted sentences.

[Arboreal TJ]

This audio lecture explains it well.

 

http://peacehillpress.com/elementary-grades-mp3.html

[boscopup]

This audio lecture explains it well.

 

http://peacehillpres...grades-mp3.html

 

Ditto.

 

You're taking the different parts of writing and working on them by themselves, so the child isn't haven't to put it ALL together at once. Think about what it takes to write... You have to first think of something to say, then form it into an intelligible sentence. Next, you hold that thought in your head while you begin to write - thinking about how the words are spelled, how to form the letters, how to hold your paper, and how to hold your pencil. Now all of this is second nature to YOU, so you don't have to think about any of it anymore. But your child is having to think about all of those things at once, and it is difficult to put it all together. So narration, copywork, and dictation all work on different parts of the skills necessary to write. Narration helps the child think of what to say and form it into intelligible sentences. You do the writing at first, so they can focus on just that thinking part. Dictation helps them hold that thought in their head while writing, but they aren't having to think of the thought yet. Copywork has them working on the physical act of forming the letters and words without having to hold a thought in their head yet. So you work each step individually, then gradually start to put them together (copywork/dictation of one or two sentences of their own narration, eventually moving to writing down their narration). At the end, the kid can put it all together and sit down to write a paragraph.

 

Now I have a child for whom copywork didn't really engage him. He did better doing written grammar exercises from a textbook, where he had to write a sentence and change something or fill something in. It still ends up being mostly copywork, but he had to think during it. That has helped him get over some of the writing reluctance (and learning how to spell helped a lot too - he could spell great in spelling time, but had a hard time during original writing... now that's coming together). Sometimes I let him choose his own copywork from a book he was reading, though I had to watch that - he'd often pick the shortest sentences. One time, he picked some short sentences from a Magic School Bus, then changed the wording a bit to make it better. :lol: I've also sometimes made up sentences for copywork, and that helped too. 8FillTheHeart gave me a Star Wars sentence example that she made up on the fly, and that was a fun copywork day! :D So you might have to play with *how* you do copywork, mixing it up some, making up fun sentences, using stuff she's reading and/or interested in, etc.

[Hunter]

I still haven't replaced my printer, and my students come and go so erratically that textbooks that don't get returned and workbooks that never get finished get expensive.

 

I have my core books I teach from. I prepare handwritten copywork lessons before I teach them. Or I read aloud or dictate from my books. Whatever they write in their notebooks is what they are responsible for, and I review from their personal notebooks.

 

I don't think my methods are necessarily "better" in general. They are just thrifty and efficient for ME, and it's comfy for ME to do it this way.

[8filltheheart]

Using copywork to teach the basic elements of writing works. It is as simple as that. :)

[Crimson Wife]

If a student really struggles with dictation, that can be a sign of a hidden learning disability like CAPD and/or working memory issues.

[Hunter]

I believe it works, but if it isn't working for your child I see nothing wrong with finding something else. No one thing works for everyone. That's what is great about homeschooling. You can find what works and discard what doesn't.

 

 

:iagree:

 

It's not the ONLY way. It's a GOOD way that works for ME right NOW, so I use it. I can see myself using other methods in other situations with other students.

[Sahamamama]

My dd is a reluctant writer and we have let writing go. She is a rising third grader and narrates well, reads, spells, etc. We hated fll 1 and have heard 2 and up are better although I don't see me adding it back soon. Can someone chime in on the whys?

 

What were you using for writing? For a reluctant writer, you can't beat WWE. IMO, the reluctant writer is most in need of WWE (or narration + copywork + dictation) and most helped by it. WWE incrementally teaches the student who does not "naturally" write to focus on one component at a time. It breaks the process down into manageable steps that are practiced to mastery.

 

But only if you actually practice. If you "let the writing go," as you say, then this lack of explicit instruction and practice will probably not get your student writing competently and comfortably. The goal by the end of WWE is to be writing with ease (not discomfort, struggle). How comfortable is your daughter with writing? Consistent, steady practice every week will build up her writing stamina, which is needed for the writing challenges of 5th grade and beyond.

 

Copywork and dictation teach the student that the details do matter -- this is the spelling of the words, these are the capital letters (and why are they there?), these are the punctuation marks (and why are they there?), this is what a perfect written model looks like. The teacher pays attention to the student during copywork or dictation, gently and immediately correcting any errors. "No, that's not quite it. Take a look at (or listen to) the model again. What is missing?"

 

I do think that at a certain point, WWE's (over)emphasis on perfection can take a toll on a perfectionistic young writer. That's where something like IEW can come in, freeing up the writing process with the idea that it's OK to write in pen, cross out (!), :) start with a rough draft, get initial thoughts down in any format, make corrections as part of a continuum, and so on. Also, IEW (or something similar) gets the student writing her own thoughts, from her own brain, instead of copying a perfect model perfectly. I think there needs to be a balance of approaches. But a student who can't get thoughts on paper easily will struggle forever with writing!

 

FWIW, we disliked certain aspects of FLL 1, too. It was too repetitive, too scattered (for us), and we didn't care for some assignments. We skipped them. ;) We do FLL 1 in Kindergarten (orally), FLL 2 in 1st (mostly orally), and FLL 3 in 2nd (plenty of writing). But, we only do the grammar material. No picture narrations (picture books are better), copywork (that's in WWE), or poetry memorization (we choose our own poems). For us, working through ONLY the grammar material for FLL made it a better program. We weren't skipping around from grammar to picture narration to copywork to memorization. Just grammar. Whew! Much more enjoyable for us that way.

 

If you think that approach might help, I have a list of the FLL lessons that focus on grammar. Let me know if you want me to post it here. HTH.

[serendipitous journey]

Sahama mama, if I could like your post twice, I'd do it :).

 

yes, thank you -- and you may have rescued FLL for me!

 

To the OP: I myself wasn't satisfied with Button's writing development, in first grade, using WWE -- he was very reluctant, and he needed something different. I started by making sure his handwriting was progressing, and then we started using Winning With Writing and Evan Moor spelling (which requires writing, and also has dictated sentences -- very simple ones). We write all year round, and so recently he finished year 2 of both WWW and Evan Moor spelling, and I've added Galore Park's Junior English and IEW's SWI-A to the mix. Now he is writing a LOT -- perhaps too much, we may scale back; esp. since I'd like to reincorporate WWE.

 

I don't think that particular path is likely to be much use to another mama of a different child, but it's just to give an example of the idea several PPs have mentioned, that WWE is one path. You could use a different writing strategy for the child -- 8FilltheHeart has these posts, 33 and 34, with what she does, which is structured but free of any program.

[mathnmusic]

This audio lecture explains it well.

 

http://peacehillpres...grades-mp3.html

 

Just in case there are people out there like me who are trying not to spend more money and can't buy the $4 lecture, here's a website where SWB summarizes her writing recommendations for elementary and later years:

 

http://creation.com/learning-to-write-a-conversation-with-susan-bauer

 

Since I never heard the audio lecture, not sure if the content is as just as good, but I'm guessing, and can't beat free...

[Sahamamama]

 

yes, thank you -- and you may have rescued FLL for me!

 

To the OP: I myself wasn't satisfied with Button's writing development, in first grade, using WWE -- he was very reluctant, and he needed something different. I started by making sure his handwriting was progressing, and then we started using Winning With Writing and Evan Moor spelling (which requires writing, and also has dictated sentences -- very simple ones). We write all year round, and so recently he finished year 2 of both WWW and Evan Moor spelling, and I've added Galore Park's Junior English and IEW's SWI-A to the mix. Now he is writing a LOT -- perhaps too much, we may scale back; esp. since I'd like to reincorporate WWE.

 

I don't think that particular path is likely to be much use to another mama of a different child, but it's just to give an example of the idea several PPs have mentioned, that WWE is one path. You could use a different writing strategy for the child -- 8FilltheHeart has these posts, 33 and 34, with what she does, which is structured but free of any program.

 

I'm glad you mentioned these, SJ, because Eight's posts on writing have helped to shape a lot of what I'm aiming at here. WWE is one path, but as I said above, I can see how there are some cons to the perfectionism it can foster in young writers, especially those that are teacher-pleasers to begin with. My oldest doesn't want to make mistakes, she doesn't want to rewrite a corrected draft, she wants to keep her narrations short and to the point. Okay, she's good at getting to the point, I'll give her that much, LOL. ;) She's figured out the "system" of WWE. She has it nailed, truth be told. Her narrations are better than mine. :)

 

However... there is an aspect to writing that IS about slapping ideas down on paper willy-nilly, coming back and organizing those ideas, writing from the basic outline, filling in the details, confirming data, correcting and editing, and -- yes -- rewriting. A friend from here loaned me IEW's TWSS (the DVDs for the parents to watch) and those gave me plenty of ideas to work on for the next several years. We're not going to actually use IEW/TWSS/SWI-A/Themed Units (most likely not), but between those ideas and Eight's posts, I feel like I have what I need to teach out of the box for some of the time.

 

We will continue to plod on through WWE up to a point. It is great at skill-building, but only a certain narrow band of skills, KWIM? When she hits the middle of Level 3, I'm going to pull my graying hair out from the roots if we don't move on. I was so glad when Eight posted about going off the beaten path with writing. If you do a search, you can come up with her posts on writing.

 

Here, with this kid, we will first teach typing. Yeah, we will. I'm not going to die on that hill, anyway, but her penmanship is beautiful, in manuscript and cursive. It would be discouraging FOR ME to have to write and write and revise and rewrite by hand -- pencil on paper -- over and over to reach perfection. Blah. Why should a kid have to do it? A word processor is going to keep away the discouragement, I think. ;) More incentive to write, too.

 

OP -- if your daughter can narrate well, then just keep moving along with that skill in her subject areas. You could do WTM-style narrations, or Charlotte Mason-style narrations. WTM/WWE/FLL-style is basically moving towards succinctly summarizing the main point ("Tell me in two or three sentences the main point of this passage."). CM-style is basically moving towards free expression of content recall (e.g., "Tell back in your own words what you learned from the reading or observation."). We do both, and both build skills in telling back. ;)

 

If your daughter still struggles with copying -- as manifested by disliking or resisting it, perhaps? -- then my experience has me convinced she would be well-served by consistent practice with copywork. Same with dictation. Here it's worth noting that there is more than one way to do dictation. The WWE way is not the only way.

 

As for grammar, could you pull out the FLL lessons on grammar only? That really streamlines it. At Level 3, we've been interspersing some of the dictionary lessons in with the grammar. She loves the dictionary lessons, LOL. I'll gladly post the lists for Levels 2 and 3, if anyone wants these.

 

HTH.

[*Michelle*]

Sahamamama, please do post the list. We're going to start FLL1 and WWE1 in a couple months and I wondered at the overlap.

[Sahamamama]

Below are listed the Grammar Lessons in First Language Lessons, Level 1.

 

I did these with oldest in Kindergarten (orally), and again this year with my K'er twins. We're not exactly going lesson-by-lesson this time through. Instead, I'm able to glance at the list of topics and teach the content more efficiently. If I remember correctly, it comes out to 74 lessons that deal with grammar concepts, so about 2x/week gets it done.

 

Here they are:

 

KINDERGARTEN

 

1 Introducing Nouns

3 Common Nouns: Family Relationships

4 Proper Nouns: First Names

6 Proper Nouns: First Names

7 Common & Proper Nouns: Other Names

8 Common & Proper Nouns: Other Names

10 Writing the Child’s Proper Name

11 Writing First Names

13 Proper Nouns: Family Names

14 Proper Nouns: Middle Names

16 Proper Nouns: Full Names

17 Common Nouns: Places

18 Proper Nouns: Places

19 Proper Nouns: Places

20 Proper Nouns: States

21 Proper Nouns: Your Address

23 Common Nouns: Things

25 Proper Nouns: Names

26 Proper Nouns: Names

28 Noun Review

29 Proper Nouns: Introducing Zip Code

30 Common & Proper Nouns

31 Common Nouns: Living Things

32 Common & Proper Nouns: Family & Other Living Things

34 Proper Nouns: Days of the Week

37 Identifying Nouns in a Story

38 Days of the Week

39 Addresses: Aunts & Uncles

40 Proper Nouns: Months of the Year

41 Proper Nouns: Months of the Year

44 Nouns: Ideas

45 Noun Review

46 Pronouns: I, Me, My, Mine

47 Pronouns: You, Your, Yours

48 Pronouns: He, She, Him, Her, It, His, Hers, Its

49 Pronouns: We, Us, Our, Ours

50 Pronouns: They, Them, Their, Theirs

52 Verbs: Action Verbs

53 Pronouns; Action Verbs

54 Telephone Numbers

55 Nouns; Pronouns; Action Verbs

58 Pronouns: Action Verbs

59 Days of the Week; Action Verbs

60 Initials

61 Initials; Identifying Pronouns in a Story

63 Days & Months

64 Seasons: Winter

65 Abbreviations

66 Initials; Abbreviations

67 Seasons: Spring; Noun Review

68 Action Verbs

69 Pronouns; Seasons: Summer

70 Seasons: Fall

71 Seasons; Holidays

72 Pronouns; Capitalization of “Iâ€

75 Nouns; Verbs; Pronouns

76 Initials; Months of the Year; Days of the Week; Pronouns

77 Abbreviations; Addresses

78 Titles of Respect

79 Titles of Respect

82 Capitalization in Poetry

83 Pronouns

85 Abbreviations: Initials & Addresses

86 Capitalization & Punctuation in Poetry

88 Writing Dates

89 Dates

90 Seasons

92 Sentences

93 Sentence Types: Statements

94 Sentence Types: Commands

95 Sentence Types: Questions

96 Sentence Types: Exclamations

97 Four Sentence Types

98 Nouns; Sentences; Verbs

[Sahamamama]

Below are listed the Grammar Lessons in First Language Lessons, Level 2.

 

I did these with oldest in First Grade (mostly orally), and will again next year (2013-2014) with my rising First Grade twins. Again, we probably will not move along lesson-by-lesson, but will use the list to ensure that the students know the content. If they already know the days of the week (they do) or the seasons (they do), then we will briefly review these lessons and move on. We might also take the time to expand the lesson a bit -- learn to spell the days or the seasons, for example. It's a tool for the teacher that the student doesn't really see. At this level, they do use a composition book for whatever written work there may be. I think this was something like 72 lessons on grammar.

 

Here they are:

 

FIRST GRADE

 

101 Noun Review

103 Action Verbs; Capitalizing “Iâ€

104 Pronouns

105 State of Being Verbs

106 State of Being Verbs

107 Linking Verbs

108 Linking Verbs

110 Linking Verbs

112 Four Types of Sentences; Seasons

113 Commas in Dates & Addresses

114 Commas in a Series

115 Helping Verbs

116 Noun & Verb Review

117 Capitalization Review

119 Contractions

120 Contractions

121 Contractions Using “Notâ€

123 Adjectives

124 Predicate Adjectives

125 Nouns, Pronouns, Verbs, Adjectives

126 Helping Verbs

128 Contractions

129 Verb Review

130 Adjectives

132 Interjections, Four Types of Sentences

133 Adjectives, Commas in a Series

134 Conjunctions

135 Interjections, Conjunctions

136 Thank You Letter

137 Address an Envelope

138 Direct Quotations

141 Indirect Quotations

142 Titles of Respect, Adjectives, Quotation Marks

143 Sentences

144/145 Quotations, Sentences, Parts of Speech, Conjunctions

147 Adverbs

148 Adverbs

149 Addresses, Postcards

150 Postcards, Nouns, Adjectives

151 Dates, Months, Seasons, Days

152 Verbs, Linking Verbs

153 Adverbs, Adjectives

154/155 Find Adverbs & Adjectives in a Story

156 Articles

157 Articles, Capitalization Review

158 Prepositions

159 Prepositions with Table Setting Practice

160 Story Narration for Prepositions

161 Prepositions

162 Prepositions

163 Prepositions

164 Articles, Commas in a Series, Conjunctions, Prepositions

165 Prepositions, Adverbs

166 Prepositions, Verbs

167 Prepositions

168 Prepositions

170 Friendly Letter, Prepositions

171 Address an Envelope

172 Prepositions

174 Synonyms

175 Antonyms

176 Story Narration for Synonyms & Antonyms

177 Sentences

178 Verbs

179 Adverbs, Adjectives

180 Interjections, Prepositions

181 Quotations

182 Nouns, Pronouns

183 Contractions

189 Prepositions

190 Synonyms & Antonyms

191 Parts of Speech Review

[*Michelle*]

Thanks! Looking it over, I think we may leave in the picture narration, but leave the others out. Our history program has memory work and I think that will be plenty for first grade.

[Sahamamama]

In First Language Lessons, Level 3, the lessons dealing with just grammar are easier to find. There are separate sections for Grammar, Dictionary, Oral Usage, and Writing Skills. I am using the grammar content only this year with my 2nd grader, plus a few lessons in dictionary and oral usage.

 

We do plenty of narration, copywork, and dictation through WWE (all three), read alouds (narration), Latin (copywork), and All About Spelling (dictation). She doesn't need to triple up on these skills! FLL works for us best as grammar only.

 

Below, the numbers refer to grammar lessons, while DS refers to lessons in Dictionary Skills. I think this totals up to 90 lessons, so we do it 3x/week (grammar) or 2x/week (DS/OU). HTH.

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

10

11

13

14

DS 1

DS 2

15

16

17

19

20

21

22

23

24

DS 3 (lesson)

DS 3 (more practice)

26

27

28

29

30

32

33

34

35

DS 4 (lesson)

DS 4 (more practice)

37

38

39

40

41

42

44

45

47

DS 5 (lesson)

DS 5 (more practice)

48

49

50

51

52

53

55

56

57

DS 6 (lesson)

DS 6 (more practice)

59

60

61

62

63

64

67

68

69

Oral Usage 1

Oral Usage 2

70

72

73

74

75

76

78

79

80

Oral Usage 3

Oral Usage 4

81

82

83

84

85

86

87

88

Oral Usage 5

Oral Usage 6

 

Done! :)

[Sahamamama]

Maggie Annie, this is great! And I love your blog post about whether or not we can use "echolocate" as a verb. LOL! Your kids sound like a fun pack of hilarious little clowns. :)

[...................]

We used WWE this year. The chosen passages are delightful. I think it really improved my dd's ability to write from memory, and to summarize succinctly.

 

I found copywork helps better with spelling so my dd's spelling improved more using PLL last year.

 

I am not continuing with WWE, however. My dd has so much creativity. We will enjoy Calvert 4th. I think she would really hate another year of copywork and dictation.

 

As for FLL, it's fun and it works, for auditory leathers. I think a strong visual learner would have a hard time. FLL is really effective, and again- the chosen passages are delightful. It's really well done and my dd still enjoys it even with all the repetition.

 

In short, copywork and dictation is good for early Elemebtary but I don't see the need after 4th grade. It builds beautiful Languafe and proper mechanics in the mind of the child, and causes them to work hard and be very focused and attention detailed.

 

:)

[mysticmomma]

I think I'm leaning towards writing strands.

[jetzmama]

Would you use fll for a child with mild dysgraphia (9yo)? Or for a child that can compose thought provoking essays and diagram sentences backwards and upside down, but doesn't seem to grasp proper punctuation(12yo)?

[carriewillard]

Just wanted to add that dictation and narration have had a MAJOR impact on my 12 year old reluctant READER'S ability to comprehend and enjoy reading. This is the first year we've done it and it's been wonderful for him (although difficult at first).

[...................]

FLL or any oral grammar didn't work with my son who has/had mild dysgraphia. He did much better with Easy Grammar and the best with Abeka. Abeka is very visual and systematic with tons of review. All of those clear visuals and kinesthetic exercises makes it all sink in for him, over time.

 

YMMV of course.

[Sahamamama]

Would you use fll for a child with mild dysgraphia (9yo)? Or for a child that can compose thought provoking essays and diagram sentences backwards and upside down, but doesn't seem to grasp proper punctuation(12yo)?

FLL or any oral grammar didn't work with my son who has/had mild dysgraphia. He did much better with Easy Grammar and the best with Abeka. Abeka is very visual and systematic with tons of review. All of those clear visuals and kinesthetic exercises makes it all sink in for him, over time.

 

YMMV of course.

 

Hmmm... I don't know. I don't think FLL 1 or 2 would work very well for them, since it's so oral. At those ages, you could simply start with FLL 3, or the best level of another program. I used to tutor kids with English struggles, and I wouldn't use FLL with a student who needs more visual reinforcement. Even at Level 3, FLL doesn't really reinforce/review enough (IMO). Abeka or Voyages in English for your 9 year old, maybe? VOE, Abeka, or Saxon/Hake grammar for the 12 year old?