Can we have a civil conversation about Catholicism?

[Moxie]

Watching the news and reading online, I keep seeing comments from people hoping that the new Pope will "make changes" in the Church. If they are only talking about birth control and women in the Priesthood, they are just showing their lack of education. The Catholic church WILL NEVER change those two things. A quick scan of the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains it pretty clearly. Like it or lump it, those things are here to stay, period.

 

So, is that it? Is there something else people want to see changed??

 

Please be civil in your comments.

[Catwoman]

In answer to your question, the answer is that no, we probably can't have a civil conversation about Catholicism. ;)

[fairfarmhand]

just in answer to your title question..

 

 

 

Probably not.

 

(yes. I am a smart aleck)

[ktgrok]

There are so many things that have changed, and could change. The celibacy of priests is an example of something that hasn't always been, and might change in the future. I hope to see it change in my lifetime, as I think it is needed to help with the priest shortage.

 

Other changes involve the political structure of the church...making things more transparant, etc.

 

Basicaly Dogma cannot change, but Doctrine can, and will, and should.

[DianeW88]

Probably not. LOL I think some of my Catholic relatives are hoping the new pope will allow priests to marry. They are woefully short on priests in their diocese, and there are many married men who would love to serve as a priest, but are forbidden at the moment.

[milovany]

When/how did it change that priests couldn't be married? I've wondered that ever since we converted to Orthodoxy (in the early church, priests could be married and in the Eastern church they still can, so I'm just curious how the change came about in the western part of the church).

 

I would think the conversation can be civil! Here's hoping ....

[Guest inoubliable]

First? Probably not. If you wanted that, you should have taken advantage of the CTT thread. ;)

 

 

Second, women's rights and birth control are a small part of what most people want to see changed. Gay marriage, sex abuse and cover ups, responsibility for past wrongs, and letting priests get married are big things that Catholics and non-Catholics are talking about. I think most Catholics understand that these things will most likely never come to pass. And most non-Catholics get this, too. So...business as usual.

[Spy Car]

The Church position on married priests has already shifted. Currently the Church allows Anglican/Episcopal Priests (who were not raised Roman Catholic) who are married a pathway to become married Roman Catholic Preists. The tradition of a celebrate non-married priesthood can (and I believe will) change.

 

And it is not Catholic bashing to hope future Vatican leadership will do a better job handling the worldwide sexual abuse scandals than we've seen thus far.

 

Bill

[Catwoman]

And it is not Catholic bashing to hope future Vatican leadership will do a better job handling the worldwide sexual abuse scandals than we've seen thus far.

 

Bill

 

 

:iagree:

[Parrothead]

We may one day have married priests again. Priestly celibacy is tradition not dogma.

 

We will not have women priests. As much as it bugs my feminism side, I can't behind women priests. Girl alter servers? Yes. Women priests, no.

 

Birth control won't change. Ever.

 

I can't see the church's stance on Gay Marriage ever changing.

 

We may go back to the TLM and start phasing out the NO if the new pope is a traditionalist. Personally I'd like to see a merging of the two. I like mass in the vernacular. I miss the parts of the TLM that are missing. I miss Georgian chant. And several other things that should be brought back.

[Parrothead]

Clerical celibacy

 

Studies by some Catholic scholars, such as the Ukrainian Roman Cholij,^[2] have argued for the theory that, in early Christian practice, married men who became priests—they were often older men, "elders"—were expected to live in complete continence, refraining permanently from sexual relations with their wives.^[3][4] When at a later stage it was clear that not all did refrain, the Western Church limited ordination to unmarried men and required a commitment to lifelong celibacy, while the Eastern Churches relaxed the rule, so that Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches now require their married clergy to abstain from sexual relations only for a limited period before celebrating the Eucharist. The Church in Persia, which in the fifth century became separated from the Church described as Orthodox or Catholic, decided at the end of that century to abolish the rule of continence and allow priests to marry, but recognized that it was abrogating an ancient tradition. The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, whose separation, along with the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, came slightly later, allows deacons (who are ordained when they are boys) to marry after ordination, but not priests: any future priests who wish to marry must do so before becoming priests. The Armenian Apostolic Church, which also belongs to Oriental Orthodoxy, while technically prohibiting, like the Eastern Orthodox Church, marriage after ordination to the sub-diaconate, has generally let this rule fall into disuse and allows deacons to marry up to the point of their priestly ordination, thus continuing to maintain the traditional exclusion of marriage by those who are priests.^[5] This theory would explain why all the ancient Christian Churches of both East and West, with the one exception mentioned, exclude marriage after priestly ordination, and why all reserve the episcopate (seen as a fuller form of priesthood than the presbyterate) for the celibate.

[FaithManor]

Are widowers allowed to become priests? Obviously they've not lived celibate adult lives and many will have children. But, they could live a celibate life instead of choosing to remarry. I'm just wondering if this is acceptable.

 

Faith

[*Michelle*]

Yes, they can. Deacons may be married also, but if they are widowed they become celibate priests. They can't remarry within the diaconate.

[Parrothead]

Are widowers allowed to become priests? Obviously they've not lived celibate adult lives and many will have children. But, they could live a celibate life instead of choosing to remarry. I'm just wondering if this is acceptable.

 

Faith

 

 

Yes, widowers can become priests. I'm sure there have been times when young man has done the dirty deed at one time or another then gone on to become a priest.

 

In the same way a widow can go on to become a nun.

[*Michelle*]

Yes, widowers can become priests. I'm sure there have been times when young man has done the dirty deed at one time or another then gone on to become a priest.

 

In the same way a widow can go on to become a nun.

 

 

Look at St. Augustine!

[FaithManor]

 

Look at St. Augustine!

 

 

I was aware of St. Augustine. I just wasn't certain if that policy had changed since then.

 

Thanks Chucki!

 

Faith

[DianeW88]

I also hope the church can handle the sexual abuse problems more aggressively. I am a graduate of Catholic schools (K-12), and in my all-girls Catholic high school, our guidance counselor (who was a priest) was arrested in an x-rated drive-in theatre with two 13 year old boys, doing unspeakable things. He ADMITTED his guilt, but never served a day in prison. He was reassigned to another Catholic school in another state. http://www.bishop-ac..._31_Hermley.pdf Why??? In our school, we were grateful that we were all girls, so he didn't have an unlimited pool of victims to choose from. It breaks my heart that the church chose to blindly look the other way when children were hurt and broken from the behavior of someone in a position of authority over them, and not only that, but someone who was supposed to represent God. I went into my high school principal the next day to ask that a letter of recommendation that this priest had written for me for an academic award be returned. My principal refused saying that "nobody would ever know about this, so don't worry." Yeah. :glare:

[Parrothead]

I also hope the church can handle the sexual abuse problems more aggressively. I am a graduate of Catholic schools (K-12), and in my all-girls Catholic high school, our guidance counselor (who was a priest) was arrested in an x-rated drive-in theatre with two 13 year old boys, doing unspeakable things. He ADMITTED his guilt, but never served a day in prison. He was reassigned to another Catholic school in another state. http://www.bishop-ac..._31_Hermley.pdf Why??? In our school, we were grateful that we were all girls, so he didn't have an unlimited pool of victims to choose from. It breaks my heart that the church chose to blindly look the other way when children were hurt and broken from the behavior of someone in a position of authority over them, and not only that, but someone who was supposed to represent God. I went into my high school principal the next day to ask that a letter of recommendation that this priest had written for me for an academic award to be returned. My principal refused saying that "nobody would ever know about this, so don't worry." Yeah. :glare:

 

 

Honestly, and this isn't a popular opinion, I think a lot of the past issues from the 50s, 60s and 70s happened because of the times and the mentality that went along with those times. I'm not saying that what was done was right, far from it.

 

But today things have changed. The mentality had changed across the board. We won't accept the cover ups the way our parents and grand parents would. The bishops are getting their acts together and not following along with the mentality of covering things up.

 

So, yeah, I think the new pope will have to stand up and put a foot down.

[Ellie]

Probably not. LOL I think some of my Catholic relatives are hoping the new pope will allow priests to marry. They are woefully short on priests in their diocese, and there are many married men who would love to serve as a priest, but are forbidden at the moment.

 

 

Priests are allowed to be married. It is just mighty uncommon.

 

And I don't believe the Pope himself has the authority to make changes like that. Surely there would be a council involving all the cardinals?

[milovany]

Clerical celibacy

 

 

Thanks Chucki! That was helpful and I appreciate it. That's has been our experience (that Orthodox men can marry and still become priests, but may not become priests once married, and that the bishops are not married and have never been). I was just curious as to how the change came that Catholic priests could not marry at all, and that helped me understand it. Thanks again.

[Parrothead]

 

Thanks Chucki! That was helpful and I appreciate it. That's has been our experience (that Orthodox men can marry and still become priests, but may not become priests once married, and that the bishops are not married and have never been). I was just curious as to how the change came that Catholic priests could not marry at all, and that helped me understand it. Thanks again.

 

 

I'm glad it helped. :grouphug:

[PrairieSong]

 

 

I hope so. I want to believe this isn't as widespread as it seems, but that is very difficult.

 

 

It is beyond horrible, but at the same time there are good, holy priests who are trying to live their vocation out in a worthy manner. They just don't make the headlines the way the abusers do.

 

[PrairieSong]

 

 

I know that's true. None of the priests I encountered ever did anything to make me not trust them. But wow, I can just imagine how damaging that is if a person you trust in that position does something like that. There should just be some people in your life you can count on. This isn't a little mistake. KWIM?

 

No, it certainly isn't. It's evil. Even one instance of it is one too many. And yes, it's particularly sad when someone you should be able to trust does something so horrible, whether that person is a parent, teacher, or priest.

[Jen in NY]

nm

[albeto]

Honestly, and this isn't a popular opinion, I think a lot of the past issues from the 50s, 60s and 70s happened because of the times and the mentality that went along with those times. I'm not saying that what was done was right, far from it.

 

But today things have changed. The mentality had changed across the board. We won't accept the cover ups the way our parents and grand parents would. The bishops are getting their acts together and not following along with the mentality of covering things up.

 

So, yeah, I think the new pope will have to stand up and put a foot down.

 

 

I would not agree. The church has changed its response to sexual abuse not because those in authority changed with the times, but because their crimes were publicized. The public unleashed a global cry of disapproval and demand for justice. If they had not been exposed, there's no reason to expect they would have changed their response.

[armymomma]

I am not exactly sure who they are interviewing. I read and hear the same stuff. But in my own circles, the only people I hear expressing such opinions are non Catholics. I for one would like to see more married priests. My last parish had two former Anglican priests who were married and it was just fine.

[Alenee]

 

Thanks Chucki! That was helpful and I appreciate it. That's has been our experience (that Orthodox men can marry and still become priests, but may not become priests once married, and that the bishops are not married and have never been). I was just curious as to how the change came that Catholic priests could not marry at all, and that helped me understand it. Thanks again.

 

Did you intend to word it this way? My understanding is that Orthodox men *must* be married before becoming priests. They are not allowed to be unmarried, unless they are widowed *after* becoming a priest...in that case, they can continue as priests. And if they divorce, they are de-frocked. This was specifically talked about in my catechism class last year.

[Little Nyssa]

I think some of us can have a civil conversation about it, and some can't. ;)

 

Now I'm speaking as someone in an anomalous position, because I am a former Catholic, yet I am well-disposed toward the RCC. Like many of us, I was brought up in the 1970s and the catechism was abysmal. I had no idea what the faith was about. None at all. At our church there were 2 priests who were later shown to have severe problems (not p*dophila, but owning illegal weapons, and drug addiction). Monsignor was the one who bravely turned them in. Anyway, that is why the mass seemed so dull-- those folks were just trying to make it through the day. :( I left at age 18 and spent a long time exploring evangelical churches before I landed in the EO 18 years ago, and I am quite happy where I am. ( So I will just admire from a distance.)

Ironically it was only from outside that I began to appreciate the RCC.

And, I truly believe that if I had received good teaching, I would have stayed RC, and I wouldn't have looked for anything else, and I wouldn't be writing to you right now, because I would have gone out to join Mother Teresa. :)

Here's what I love about it: Tradition, Strong doctrine, appreciation for the scope of Christians in history (saints & martyrs), stability, Devotion to Pro-Life issues, charitable works and agencies (hospitals, schools, Catholic Charities), monasticism.

Here's what I think can improve: Teaching and catechism, because there are Catholics who would say, like my grandmother, who went to church every week of her life: "I'm a Catholic but I don't believe in God" and this seems quite normal to them. And, accountability for priests' behavior. [i've seen EO priests receive consequences for much more minor behavior than I've read about occurring-though I'm not claiming EO is perfect in this regard either.] I also am happy to see some movement toward relationships with the EO and other Christians. I'm not always partial to Catholic architecture in the U.S. either. (sorry!)

[Little Nyssa]

Just to correct some misconceptions about clergy marriage in the EO:

 

No, EO priests do not have to be married. They CAN marry, but they must do so before they are ordained. After ordination, no marrying is allowed. You can imagine, this creates some stress on the seminarians who are single and do not feel a call to celibacy but have not met the right lady yet.

 

Priests and Deacons can not marry after they are ordained. Subdeacons, however, can. That is why sometimes seminarians are ordained subdeacon, so they can start participating in the subdeacon role in the services, but they are still free to marry.

[Avila]

The Hive can't manage a civil conversation about K-cups or crockpots, let alone anything important.

 

How about a civil conversation on gay marriage? Or obesity? Or abortion? Or politics? Oh wait ... That is against board rules.

 

 

[mommaduck]

Very much agree with Nyssa.

Yes, I believe milovany mixed up a couple of things unintentionally....happens to the best of us when or minds work faster than our fingers can type. They may may marry and then become a priest. They may not marry once ordained.

[mommaduck]

Very much agree with Nyssa.

Yes, I believe milovany mixed up a couple of things unintentionally....happens to the best of us when or minds work faster than our fingers can type. They may may marry and then become a priest. They may not marry once ordained.

[anabelneri]

We just had a Vatican II symposium in our parish, and one of the speakers (a retired Archbishop) talked about the possibility of changing the way that the papacy operates into something closer to what the Orthodox have. He talked about the way it is being run as the Pope operating as a bishop of a worldwide diocese. Another viable option would be to have local patriarchs for various regions, so that each region could be dealt with as appropriate to that region. The issues we face in the U.S. and Canada are completely different than those faced by the church in China, Africa, India, or South America; a patriarchy type system would be a pastorally responsible option. I think that would be something that would benefit the Church overall, that a new Pope might be able to accomplish.

 

And while, yes, generally big changes happen at Councils, it is often the Pope who calls a Council. So while the new guy might not be able to accomplish anything significant alone, he does have the ability to make things happen that other individuals don't have. Beyond that, even the kind of encyclicals a Pope writes impacts the whole Church... just look at the impact that Humanae Vitae has had.

 

And on some of the hot-button issues, my take on the situation is that they could change, but probably not in my lifetime. Ordaining women is a huge issue here & in Europe, but in India (and elsewhere) they're still fighting for the lives of girls to be valued. Developed-world "needs" are very different than the needs of the developing world, and this Church of over a billion people will quite naturally reflect that. Things are changing in India; things will change in the Church too. When the needs of the world change, the Church's response will change, but it may take a couple centuries. I take it as promising that there have been bishops speaking out for the need to have condoms available in Africa. It's not a church-wide change, it's precedent.

 

And actually the theology is being formed around how we talk about some of these issues... we can't change the practice of the church without an undergirding theology. Time alone can tell where we'll go as a Church. I have faith that Love will win in the end.

 

:)

[mommaduck]

Annabel, then that begs the question of why not just join back with the Orthodox as the Roman Patriarch.

[anabelneri]

Annabel, then that begs the question of why not just join back with the Orthodox as the Roman Patriarch.

 

 

True 'nuff. That is a good question. But I think we haven't gotten past our filioque hangup yet, so we're not too likely to go there.

 

Besides, I'm not sure that would solve the whole problem. The Pope becoming the Roman Patriarch would solve some issues, but it doesn't address the need for a North American Patriarch, etc.

 

:)

[*Michelle*]

Annabel, then that begs the question of why not just join back with the Orthodox as the Roman Patriarch.

 

 

Who knows what may happen? I think that discussion is ongoing. We already reconciled with the Lutherans on justification. ;)

[I.Dup.]

The Hive can't manage a civil conversation about K-cups or crockpots, let alone anything important.

 

 

 

LOL, so true!

[DianeW88]

 

Priests are allowed to be married. It is just mighty uncommon.

 

And I don't believe the Pope himself has the authority to make changes like that. Surely there would be a council involving all the cardinals?

 

I don't think you were directing your question to me, but just in case you were, I'll answer. I have no clue. LOL I left the Catholic church over 29 years ago (even though I'm only 32 years old ;) ), and have no idea how the church hierarchy works. I went to Catholic school for 12 years, but that sort of "technical stuff" was never taught in our theology classes.

[milovany]

Very much agree with Nyssa.

Yes, I believe milovany mixed up a couple of things unintentionally....happens to the best of us when or minds work faster than our fingers can type. They may may marry and then become a priest. They may not marry once ordained.

 

 

Eek! How did I mess that up? I was probably thinking of the unique situation 25 years ago when there was a mass conversion of both pastors and laity to the Orthodox Church; numerous of the pastors were already married and yet they were still ordained as priests. Very unique situation and not the standard.

[Whereneverever]

 

 

Who knows what may happen? I think that discussion is ongoing. We already reconciled with the Lutherans on justification. ;)

 

 

With a certain branch of Lutheranism, yes, but not Lutherans in general.

[Laura Corin]

The Church position on married priests has already shifted. Currently the Church allows Anglican/Episcopal Priests (who were not raised Roman Catholic) who are married a pathway to become married Roman Catholic Preists. The tradition of a celebrate non-married priesthood can (and I believe will) change.

 

 

 

I heard a short item about this on the BBC. Where married priests have been put into parishes, there has been a lot of grumbling. This is apparently not theological, but because local people feel that marriage and family makes a priest less available to the flock, and there isn't a traditional 'vicar's wife' role to spread the load. Instead, the traditional female parish helpers feel pushed out by the wife. It's a social revolution.

 

Laura

[Laura Corin]

That's weird thinking to me. I'd prefer a married priest because I would prefer someone who is kinda part of the real world that I can relate to (family, spouse, etc.).

 

 

It's all a matter of what you are used to.

 

A C of E friend of mine could not initially imagine female vicars because she thought that a parish would be best served by the traditional male-vicar-non-working-helper-wife combo. She later changed her mind, but it was a structure that she was used to and she couldn't see how a new one would work.

 

Laura

[*Michelle*]

That's weird thinking to me. I'd prefer a married priest because I would prefer someone who is kinda part of the real world that I can relate to (family, spouse, etc.).

 

 

See, I prefer the unmarried priest who listens and advises objectively without their own marriage filtering their view. I want a neutral party.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

 

See, I prefer the unmarried priest who listens and advises objectively without their own marriage filtering their view. I want a neutral party.

 

For me, I'd rather have someone with experience, who knows what he's actually talking about. But I'm not Catholic. I also prefer pediatricians who are parents.

[Little Nyssa]

I think both married and celibate priests can have good advice to offer.

[mommaduck]

I've had married priests and currently have a single priest...both can be awesome in their own way.

[mommaduck]

There is no automatic trust and respect. I've been hurt by a priest and his wife due to their failings, but they are human and truly had no understanding. Each priest is individual with their strengths and weaknesses.

[*Michelle*]

I suppose it's because I need spiritual advice from a priest. That advice should be same whether or not the adviser is married. I think there can be more clarity when you don't have a dog in the fight, so to speak.

 

Maybe I'm just an oddball, though. I prefer male OBs too. :p

[Guest inoubliable]

 

I'm sure!

 

But imagine if I said to you, "I don't have kids, but what I'd do...." You would probably not take me as seriously. Why the automatic trust and respect because a person is a priest?

 

 

Because they have the biggest self-help book ever to go on...

[delaney]

 

I'm sure!

 

But imagine if I said to you, "I don't have kids, but what I'd do...." You would probably not take me as seriously. Why the automatic trust and respect because a person is a priest?

 

I don't get even having a clue about how a marriage works unless you have been in one. Sex, intimacy, the day to day nuances of a relationship.....they have no idea. It would be like giving advice on Math Mammoth when you have only read reviews but never used it.