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I'm looking for theoretical advice as well as practical advice in structure and expectations for my bright students.

 

I have 3 bright students, products of two bright parents. We were bored in public school, did the minimum to get by and generally feel we could/should have been challenged or pressed to greater success in a better educational system, one where we weren't beaten down with relentless repetition designed to accommodate the wide spectrum of student abilities. To that end (and others), we've chosen to home school and we feel successful in that task over the last 5 years. One specific example we strive to avoid in our own schooling is forcing students to produce copious work that is of no benefit, for instance, 50 math practice problems when 5 will do. Beating the trained horse, so to speak.

 

Today, I found myself fighting with my 8 year old, who has control issues. He tries to manipulate every situation to his advantage. Ironically, he works quite hard to win the right to be lazy. One of the assignments today that caused the kerfuffle was in his spelling book. Three sentences were presented with several errors each - misspelled spelling words, capitalization and punctuation. The directions read "Rewrite the sentences, correcting the errors..." There were only 3 short sentences, I didn't see the point in modifying the directions, but he insisted on taking short cuts. I saw it coming and told him that if he didn't follow the instructions, the questions would be counted wrong. Still, he wrote a capital letter on the line below the first word of the sentence, wrote a correctly spelled word under the misspelled one and wrote a period at the end of the line below. He blatantly ignored my instructions to write the whole sentence and commenced arguing that he corrected all the mistakes. I marked them with an x and suffered 15 minutes of struggle to produce the work I'd asked for.

 

We experienced something similar in math, when I asked him to "show his work," which amounted to writing a simple addition fact in full, rather than just the one digit answer. Again, arguing that ended in him slamming his notebook closed and running from the room. Then a further stand-off while I waited for him to write the math fact.

 

In the aftermath, I find myself wondering how little is enough? I believe this is a control/discipline issue more than anything, but am I choosing my battles poorly? Am I failing in my principle of removing the frustration of schooling by demanding that his work be more than the bare minimum to prove his learning? It's certainly not frustration-free! There is some value in writing a complete sentence correctly, even if the intended exercise is to spot problems in a poorly written sentence. It was only 3 sentences, not 30! We switched math curricula because I was constantly assigning such a small percentage of the practice available that we were wasting pages and pages of the workbooks.

 

So, how do I find the balance in not frustrating my child with endless busy work and instilling a bit of diligence while letting him know that he doesn't get to call all the shots? How do I express to him that I don't want him to do any more work than is necessary, that I do have an eye for his frustration level, but ultimately, he is not the one who decides what is beneficial work and what is not?

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I have a 6yo who is bright and accelerated, and currently in a public school which sometimes send him home with homework that causes grrrrrrr-inducing sounds from me.

 

With him I've found it's sometimes best if I let him work On. His. Own., which he will insist on if I am too close by and he is getting frustrated. Except sometimes, when he is frustrated and I am too far away and I should be Right. There. :willy_nilly:

 

Course, he's still at the age where he depends on me to tell him, "okay, this is what your teacher wants you to do tonight."

 

My husband is the one with psychological training, so he knows this better than me, but I think the key thing when you find yourself in a power struggle is to remove yourself from it. Make your expectations clear, and then walk away. This is assuming, of course, that you're completely confident the kid can accomplish what you told him without your help. If you're not, make sure they know they can ask for help if they don't understand something. If what they do isn't up to snuff, repeat your expectations and hand it back to them.

 

Your kid might be totally different from mine, of course, but it's possible that your kid doesn't do well with constant pressure (the instructions, your presence, your evaluation) and will respond with just being stubborn. I can understand, that's the way I was as a kid. :D

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I think it's worth the fight with an eight year old to instill the habits you expect later. Following specific directions - not huge for an eight year old - huge for an eighth grade lab. Showing your work in math - again not a bg deal at six - huge at 12. Letting it slide now does not mean they will suddenly want to work harder or cleaner later, especially if they havent had to yet.

 

For me, I considered the task habit teaching at that age and the assignments were tools toward that end, so the hills you mention are ones I would fight on (not really fight - but stand firm in my training). Math - whatever - listenig and following directions - that was the leason. I still remind myself that schoolwork is a tool to teach character and not the end goal. HTH.

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My husband is the one with psychological training, so he knows this better than me, but I think the key thing when you find yourself in a power struggle is to remove yourself from it. Make your expectations clear, and then walk away. This is assuming, of course, that you're completely confident the kid can accomplish what you told him without your help. If you're not, make sure they know they can ask for help if they don't understand something. If what they do isn't up to snuff, repeat your expectations and hand it back to them.

 

Your kid might be totally different from mine, of course, but it's possible that your kid doesn't do well with constant pressure (the instructions, your presence, your evaluation) and will respond with just being stubborn. I can understand, that's the way I was as a kid. :D

 

Of course, your advice is right on. I can't tell if I'm making excuses because I'm so frustrated at the inconvenience of it or if there really is a good reason for me not to just walk away. In other situations, walking away makes him believe I'm not serious about making him do whatever. So, I return, expecting the task to be complete and now I've got to come up with some sort of consequence, which I feel woefully inadequate at. We've deliberately not lavished our children with privileges to take away and you can imagine how a power struggle over completing one task goes when you heap on another task.

 

In school, the situation seems more complicated. He definitely resents the constant supervision. He does well on his independent assignments (though he frequently takes short cuts, too), but we struggle with these brief assignments as part of a larger lesson, where there is more instruction after the practice. I have two students at this level, so he and his sister are completing the work at the same time. On a good day, they both comply, we get our work done and move on with life. (These are the days, btw, when little brother decides to refuse to do his work. They take turns being the school disruptor.) This assignment should take 5 minutes or less. If I got up and walked away at the first sign of his refusal, my daughter would fall into la-la land and never get her work done - she needs me there. If I sent him to another table to complete his work without me, I'd lose another 5 minutes over getting him to and from the next table. What I really want to do is smack him on the side of the head and say, "shut up and do the work that is assigned and we'll be done in a matter of minutes." The good mommy in me won't let me do that, so I end up saying, "You will not argue your way out of this. Write in complete sentences." Whether I engage him further or not, dd and I still sit there waiting for him to comply. Moving on without him throws him into a fit of tears (another control tactic) that nobody can work through. I typically end up removing him from the room and now I've sentenced him and myself to another battle later in the afternoon or after dad comes home so he can complete the work he missed out on in school. I HATE that he has that much control over me and my schedule, that his arguing and fits disrupt our day so much and that I have to present lessons twice when he chooses not to comply the first time.

 

I've tried logical consequences in this case, but they just end up punishing everyone. "Since I had to teach school twice today, I don't have time to cook a proper dinner. We're stuck with peanut butter sandwiches again." And since my kids will literally eat anything, I'm really only punishing dh and myself.

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I think it's worth the fight with an eight year old to instill the habits you expect later. Following specific directions - not huge for an eight year old - huge for an eighth grade lab. Showing your work in math - again not a bg deal at six - huge at 12. Letting it slide now does not mean they will suddenly want to work harder or cleaner later, especially if they havent had to yet.

 

For me, I considered the task habit teaching at that age and the assignments were tools toward that end, so the hills you mention are ones I would fight on (not really fight - but stand firm in my training). Math - whatever - listenig and following directions - that was the leason. I still remind myself that schoolwork is a tool to teach character and not the end goal. HTH.

 

I agree with you. Maybe I need to do more to express this to my "tell me why I should listen to you" 8 year old.

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Hugs to you Op, I agree with kayaking mom. I have a dd who is like the op 's son. I is not really a question of the work but a question of waning to do what she wants, when she wants. We do butt heads a bit but I do believe it is better to work on it now than wait 5 yrs down the road. For us, it is not just school work. Sometimes it is "use the yellow towel to dry your face" can I use the red me instead? I really have to bit my tongue sometimes instead of saying just do what you are asked. I think it is a nice trait in that they will tend not to just follow the crowd but their are situations when you just need to obey.

 

Hugs again

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I agree with you. Maybe I need to do more to express this to my "tell me why I should listen to you" 8 year old.

 

I don't think that "because I am the teacher and this is your assignment" is a bad or unreasonable explanation. I believe in discussions and talking things over with my kids - but at a point they need to learn to be quiet and do what is asked of them. In the workplace - they'll need to learn the same thing. Learning it now from mom is not controlling and authoritarian - it's a useful life lesson. Being bright is no reason to be manipulative or lazy about their work (guess how many times I've said that to my kids! LOL). I think sometimes reminding ourselves of what would and would not be acceptable "in school" is a helpful guideline for how much slack we should give. Would your child be allowed to debate these same items in a school setting? Because they are home does not mean they are adults and entitled to debate and bloviate on every assignment/book/lesson/expectation. Sometimes work is work and "do it or they'll be more of if so you can practice doing it when I ask" is, IMHO, fair life training. [And in my experience, after a couple days of double, or more, math/LA/piano practice/whatever - the whining and debating ends... for a while... and then you'll have to do it again... such is parenting! LOL!! ]

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Pick your battles.

I have gifted children, and one of them most definitely abhors anything resembling busywork. He needs to be convinced that there is an actual point to the assignment.

I would see no need to make the child write out the entire sentence again if the objective of the exercise is to find and correct spelling mistakes, and I would not choose this as a battle to fight "just because I said so". OTOH, I have very strong reasons why I need work shown in math, and I will insist on it - but will give the student work that is challenging enough so that work needs to be shown; if he can do the problem in his head, he is not challenged enough.

 

So, I would recommend that you think over the learning objectives of each task and modify to make each assignment meaningful. Most prefabricated assignments I have seen contain large amounts of busy work that are designed to keep the student working for a certain amount of time without translating into actual learning - exactly what happens in school and the reason I withdrew my kids. Training a child to do what he is told without questioning the order is not something I aim to accomplish.

 

I reserve the energy for battles for issues that are very important to me. Unquestioning obedience is not.

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I would suggest making the consequences for wasting time be more meaningful than eating sandwiches for dinner. My son has a DS, so we haven't had to use this, but I do remember another poster saying that for any wasted time (i.e. reteaching lessons), the child just sits for that long during their free time. Maybe that would help provide the motivation you need for them to just complete the work? For us, no screens unless school is complete by noon. We are regularly done by 11 because the kids are motivated to get it done so they can do their own thing. (FYI: This doesn't mean they get to watch tv and play video games for the rest of the day, just that they get them at all).

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its hard to know where to go. My 9 yo is by far the most stubborn of my kids. We did time4learning for a year and a half, because he wouldnt argue with the computer the way he would with me, and together we just did supplemental stuff, like living math reading and regular reading.

 

he is also several years ahead in math and several behind in LA. Just last year, 8 yo, using a 2nd grade LA book, he would roll on the floor crying if asked to write 5 sentences which were formulaic, just copying the sample and changing 2 words.

 

for me, i've decided to give him as much space as I can. LA is the only subect we really fight over, but he is 2 years behind and he's got to get there somehow! But i like to have faith that my kids will mature . . that this stubborn one is the one who will take control of his own education, know what he wants and go for it - because that kind of self-directedness is infuriating in a young one but so useful in an adult.

 

but i believe some of this is simply your personal values, and your style of parenting. i lean towards the laid-back liberal end of things (but without going in to unschooling, imo lol)

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Weederberries - it sounds like a difficult situation.

 

With my kid I really don't want to crush his spirit and start down the You Must Bend to My Will path. But sometimes he does have to obey. So, yes, balance, but keeping it is so hard!

 

In my house Dad is the enforcer. If kid gets really bad then Pappa steps in and does a stiff "talking to" - "This is NOT acceptable. You WILL listen to your mother. I do NOT want to see you act that way EVER again. Do you understand me?" I usually run away and hide during this conversation... There's hugs all around afterwards, and we do try to let him have his own time to do whatever he chooses.

 

Plus, it's becoming clear that kid is an introvert. Not surprising, since both Dad and I are (I am a very major introvert). Introverts, ime, have issues with self-expression, so they try to grab control in unusual/unexpected ways. It's probably why I was so stubborn as a kid, logic and reason had no sway with me once I decided on something. Trying to override that control is emotionally distressing. So with my kid, if I see his argument is emotional, and walking away won't solve it, I just ease up and soften my tone and then give him a series of options which I find acceptable. So for sentence writing you could say "okay, maybe instead of copying the exact sentence you could write a new sentence with the corrections!" (so if the sentence has "boy" he could write "girl" instead and so on). Invite him to brainstorm with you, then let him choose the solution. Yes, this can be exhausting!

 

You said he has few "privileges" so taking something away could be extra distressing. You don't want to take away a summer camp that he looks forward to all year just because of a few sentences! It's your call if making him do something extra, like helping you make dinner, would work. Setting a "goal time" to be done is a good idea in any case, I think. Just remind him (and your daughter) how much time they have left at frequent intervals.

 

And when they do do well, heap on praise. I try not to fall into the trap of praising a kid for something he should do anyways, but in an area they struggle with I make an exception. With my kid the major issue is eating, so when he finishes eating, even if it is two hours later than the time he first started the meal, I thank him for eating. Slowly (very slowly) it's becoming less of an issue.

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Today, I found myself fighting with my 8 year old, who has control issues. He tries to manipulate every situation to his advantage. Ironically, he works quite hard to win the right to be lazy. One of the assignments today that caused the kerfuffle was in his spelling book. Three sentences were presented with several errors each - misspelled spelling words, capitalization and punctuation. The directions read "Rewrite the sentences, correcting the errors..." There were only 3 short sentences, I didn't see the point in modifying the directions, but he insisted on taking short cuts. I saw it coming and told him that if he didn't follow the instructions, the questions would be counted wrong. Still, he wrote a capital letter on the line below the first word of the sentence, wrote a correctly spelled word under the misspelled one and wrote a period at the end of the line below. He blatantly ignored my instructions to write the whole sentence and commenced arguing that he corrected all the mistakes. I marked them with an x and suffered 15 minutes of struggle to produce the work I'd asked for.

 

We experienced something similar in math, when I asked him to "show his work," which amounted to writing a simple addition fact in full, rather than just the one digit answer. Again, arguing that ended in him slamming his notebook closed and running from the room. Then a further stand-off while I waited for him to write the math fact.

 

I think you are characterizing your son's motives unfairly as manipulation, laziness and control issues, while putting a positive spin on your own motivations. On the one hand, you say you want to remove meaningless busy work, and OTOH you basically say "well, it was only 3 sentences of meaningless busywork, not 30, so he should have done them just because I said so." Claiming that they aren't busywork because "there's some value in writing correct sentences" is a rationalization — does he not have ample opportunity to write correct sentences in meaningful contexts, like reports, letters, emails to Grandma, or whatever? Making him recopy boring workbook sentences to correct a few errors is certainly pointless busywork IMHO.

 

I agree that showing work in math is important, but a "simple addition fact with a single-digit answer" does not require any work! Forcing an 8 year old to write out 3+2=5, instead of just 5, has nothing to do with "showing his work" and everything to do with making him do what you tell him to do whether it's meaningful or not.

 

In the aftermath, I find myself wondering how little is enough? I believe this is a control/discipline issue more than anything, but am I choosing my battles poorly? Am I failing in my principle of removing the frustration of schooling by demanding that his work be more than the bare minimum to prove his learning?

 

Recopying a sentence, when he has already demonstrated that he understands the errors, and writing out a simple single-digit addition problem, when he has demonstrated that he knows the answer, have nothing to do with "proving his learning." Forcing him to do those tasks is a way of proving, to both your son and yourself, that you control his school work.

 

A gifted child definitely needs "more than the bare minimum" but that work needs to be challenging and meaningful, not busywork.

 

Jackie

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Claiming that they aren't busywork because "there's some value in writing correct sentences" is a rationalization — does he not have ample opportunity to write correct sentences in meaningful contexts, like reports, letters, emails to Grandma, or whatever? Making him recopy boring workbook sentences to correct a few errors is certainly pointless busywork IMHO.

 

I sometimes use copying sentences in grammar as a sneaky way to get my 8 year old to write. Why? Because he was freaking out at any original writing (including letters to people), and he definitely wasn't anywhere near ready to write reports! He needed to do *copywork*. But copywork is boring, and he would mentally check out when doing it. So I started using R&S English, which has him writing, sometimes just writing a word here and there, but sometimes copying sentences and correcting them. And you know what? His original writing is becoming sooooo much easier because he has had more time to practice just the physical act of writing. So in some cases, it is not busywork. There really is a point to it. My son knows that I won't give him 10 sentences to write from his grammar book. I'll usually do 1 or 2 sentences. So he appreciates that and has gotten used to it. For a while there, I had limited his writing so much that if he was supposed to write "noun" and "verb", he would say, "Can I just write N or V?" He was trying to get around the physical act of writing, but that was *exactly* what he needed more practice in! I told him they were 4-letter words. He can write them out. :tongue_smilie: If it's longer words, I'll sometimes be nice and let him use abbreviations. In math word problems, I let him use just the first letter of a name when showing his work, but for "English", he needs to actually be doing some writing, and the more writing I have him do, the easier it is getting. I do think we homeschoolers have to be careful not to reduce the writing so much that our children physically just can't do it. Writing requires muscles, and building muscle requires practice.

 

I agree that showing work in math is important, but a "simple addition fact with a single-digit answer" does not require any work! Forcing an 8 year old to write out 3+2=5, instead of just 5, has nothing to do with "showing his work" and everything to do with making him do what you tell him to do whether it's meaningful or not.

 

Completely agree about the math. I require showing work if it's a 2-step or more problem, or if it's just not obvious what the answer is. If the question is "Mary has 3 apples and Bob gives her 2 more. How many apples does Mary have now?", I won't require him to show his work. I don't think we really got much into problems requiring showing work until about grade 4 math. My son now is very good about showing work... most of the time. :)

 

A gifted child definitely needs "more than the bare minimum" but that work needs to be challenging and meaningful, not busywork.

 

Agreed, and sometimes it is hard to find the right amount of work. I've had to find that level where my son was comfortable, then gently push a bit past that level. I know what he needs in order to learn the material. Sometimes I give him a little more practice to give him the experience of doing something monotonous (which he'll have to do in his adult work at some point), but not so much that it really is horribly boring. It's a fine line. If he needs 5 problems to get a concept, he might be given 6 or 7 or 8... but not 30 or 50. ;)

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Pick your battles.

I have gifted children, and one of them most definitely abhors anything resembling busywork. He needs to be convinced that there is an actual point to the assignment.

I would see no need to make the child write out the entire sentence again if the objective of the exercise is to find and correct spelling mistakes, and I would not choose this as a battle to fight "just because I said so". OTOH, I have very strong reasons why I need work shown in math, and I will insist on it - but will give the student work that is challenging enough so that work needs to be shown; if he can do the problem in his head, he is not challenged enough.

 

So, I would recommend that you think over the learning objectives of each task and modify to make each assignment meaningful. Most prefabricated assignments I have seen contain large amounts of busy work that are designed to keep the student working for a certain amount of time without translating into actual learning - exactly what happens in school and the reason I withdrew my kids. Training a child to do what he is told without questioning the order is not something I aim to accomplish.

 

I reserve the energy for battles for issues that are very important to me. Unquestioning obedience is not.

 

:iagree: with all of this.

 

Jackie

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His original writing is becoming sooooo much easier because he has had more time to practice just the physical act of writing. So in some cases, it is not busywork. There really is a point to it. My son knows that I won't give him 10 sentences to write from his grammar book. I'll usually do 1 or 2 sentences. So he appreciates that and has gotten used to it.

 

This makes perfect sense, and it would be easy to explain this to a child who needs the writing practice. But to me, that's very different from what the OP is talking about: she said the directions in the spelling workbook say to recopy the sentences and she "didn't see any reason to modify the instructions." IOW, she didn't have any reason for requiring the writing other than the workbook said to do it.

 

Not surprisingly, her son was questioning the point of rewriting entire sentences when correcting them in situ (which in fact is what a real editor would do) would demonstrate the required knowledge. And she had no answer for that other than "because I said so." At that point, it's really about obedience and control (on the parent's part), not about working on important skills. I've never met a gifted kid — or adult — who considered "because I said so" to be an effective answer. ;)

 

Jackie

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Of course, your advice is right on. I can't tell if I'm making excuses because I'm so frustrated at the inconvenience of it or if there really is a good reason for me not to just walk away. In other situations, walking away makes him believe I'm not serious about making him do whatever. So, I return, expecting the task to be complete and now I've got to come up with some sort of consequence, which I feel woefully inadequate at. We've deliberately not lavished our children with privileges to take away and you can imagine how a power struggle over completing one task goes when you heap on another task.

 

In school, the situation seems more complicated. He definitely resents the constant supervision. He does well on his independent assignments (though he frequently takes short cuts, too), but we struggle with these brief assignments as part of a larger lesson, where there is more instruction after the practice. I have two students at this level, so he and his sister are completing the work at the same time. On a good day, they both comply, we get our work done and move on with life. (These are the days, btw, when little brother decides to refuse to do his work. They take turns being the school disruptor.) This assignment should take 5 minutes or less. If I got up and walked away at the first sign of his refusal, my daughter would fall into la-la land and never get her work done - she needs me there. If I sent him to another table to complete his work without me, I'd lose another 5 minutes over getting him to and from the next table. What I really want to do is smack him on the side of the head and say, "shut up and do the work that is assigned and we'll be done in a matter of minutes." The good mommy in me won't let me do that, so I end up saying, "You will not argue your way out of this. Write in complete sentences." Whether I engage him further or not, dd and I still sit there waiting for him to comply. Moving on without him throws him into a fit of tears (another control tactic) that nobody can work through. I typically end up removing him from the room and now I've sentenced him and myself to another battle later in the afternoon or after dad comes home so he can complete the work he missed out on in school. I HATE that he has that much control over me and my schedule, that his arguing and fits disrupt our day so much and that I have to present lessons twice when he chooses not to comply the first time.

 

I've tried logical consequences in this case, but they just end up punishing everyone. "Since I had to teach school twice today, I don't have time to cook a proper dinner. We're stuck with peanut butter sandwiches again." And since my kids will literally eat anything, I'm really only punishing dh and myself.

 

Ok, I'll bite here. I'll warn you I'm headachy, so hopefully it will come out as kindly as I mean it. :) I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions. As you answer them, maybe some things will come out to help you find solutions.

 

-Why are a boy and girl of different ages labeled the same grade? Was this a convenience move on your part, or does the boy have a dramatically higher IQ than the girl? I can't imagine my dd at 12 keeping up with who my dd now at 13, and that's the same gender. While you can sometimes combine kids for content subjects, for skills some separation may be helpful. And even with content subjects, I would expect their interests and bents to play out very different ways.

 

-Do you feel the older dc in this situation is being taught to her challenge/max? There are instructional levels where the kid can glide, be happily challenged, or be pushed to frustration. Where is the older in that spectrum with her current set-up of work?

 

-Why are you working them in the same room? They seem to have very different working styles.

 

-Why can your dd *not* work alone at all, and why is it an assumption on your part that it's realistic to cater to that?

 

-Why is your BOY doing the same work as your GIRL?

 

-How long have you been homeschooling? I caught you pulled them out of school, but is this your first year?

 

-Why, when you're so willing to remove them from the unpleasantness of school, are you NOT bending over backward to capture what can be a very pleasant situation at home?

 

-Are you currently using a form of schedule that shows each child, their track, and what Mother is doing with each dc at a given point?

 

-Have you considered breaking them up and working with your ds first? He sounds like he's more high need emotionally and maybe needs time together, one-on-one, to be stable and ready to do things on his own.

 

-Does each dc have an explicit checklist of their work? Kids age 8 and 9 ABSOLUTELY can work from a checklist or other form of structure.

 

-What would it take, if you really sat back and opened your soul and pondered, to get your ds HAPPY in his schooling situation? What if you were willing to dump EVERYTHING and just mentally free yourself for a second, what would that look like for him? What if you opened your mind to that, something radical? This is an exercise I try to do myself each year with my dd, to make sure I haven't locked into assumptions about how things have to be.

 

-Have you sat down and had private feedback sessions with each dc, preferably in a situation where they are comfortable like a long walk or an ice cream shop, so they can give you their feedback on school and how they feel it's going, what's going well, what isn't working, and what they'd like to change or see happen? Have you written those things down so you can make those changes?

 

 

There are different ways to work with kids. Right now, it *sounds* like you're working very top down. You can do that with some kids, but once you get really bright kids (or throw in a dab of SN), it gets trickier. You can get that top down method you want to work, but it's going to come at a COST. It sounds like what you want, deep in your soul, is for that homeschooling dream, that he becomes engaged and happy and opens up and does his work with relish. Well you CAN get there, but you have to think about what you're willing to give up and change to get it there. Not all kids can do top down education and be happy. It just is how it is. They might need STRUCTURE, but structure isn't the same thing as top down. (Yes, that's supposed to swizzle your brain for a minute or a week or a month till you really GET it and can see the difference.)

 

I think most people will feel like they have a well-run, peaceful home if they have structure. Structure means clear expectations, and implicit in it is the idea that it's *appropriate* expectations. Top down is more loaded. Top down means you're telling them what to be interested in, when, how, and it loses the reciprocity that is so POSSIBLE with gifted or bright kids. You can act with them in a respectful, meaningful way and get the interaction and type of day you want. I think you probably need more structure, more feedback from them, and maybe just a *couple* changes with give and take. Sometimes you change one or two small things and it sets the ball rolling. They see something will change, they're encouraged, they start talking, and the whole thing improves.

 

So open yourself to change. Guess that's what I'm saying. :)

 

PS. On the editing and copywork, I would have allowed it the way your ds did it. He's clearly saying the text is disinteresting to copywork. No problem. He edits, and you find something more interesting to copywork like Lord of the Rings. ;)

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Right now, it *sounds* like you're working very top down. You can do that with some kids, but once you get really bright kids (or throw in a dab of SN), it gets trickier. You can get that top down method you want to work, but it's going to come at a COST. It sounds like what you want, deep in your soul, is for that homeschooling dream, that he becomes engaged and happy and opens up and does his work with relish. Well you CAN get there, but you have to think about what you're willing to give up and change to get it there. Not all kids can do top down education and be happy...

 

... Top down means you're telling them what to be interested in, when, how, and it loses the reciprocity that is so POSSIBLE with gifted or bright kids. You can act with them in a respectful, meaningful way and get the interaction and type of day you want. I think you probably need more structure, more feedback from them, and maybe just a *couple* changes with give and take. Sometimes you change one or two small things and it sets the ball rolling. They see something will change, they're encouraged, they start talking, and the whole thing improves.

 

BINGO

 

Jackie

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BINGO

 

Jackie

 

 

I know, lol. :lol: Dh came home a couple days ago and asked ds4 if he DID HIS SCHOOLWORK and I told dh I'd HAVE HIS HIDE if he did that again before I said he could! Right now ds thinks all this is his idea and that he does it because HE wants to. He does exactly what I want, but he concludes he wants to. There's a peaceful way to interact with bright or extremely opinionated kids. (My ds is at least the latter, lol.)

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I am with those who say choose your battles and make them count. I do not require my children to show me their math work if they can get the correct answer in their head. If I want them to show their work, I make sure the problem is challenging enough that they need to write it down. When my older daughter finally got to work that was this difficult on a regular basis (pre-algebra), it did require some reminders that it was OK not to do these in her head, and some modeling of how I wanted the problems written, but she picked it up quickly and with minimal complaint. So just because a child doesn't show their work when they are younger doesn't mean they will be unable to do so when they are older.

 

I sometimes use copying sentences in grammar as a sneaky way to get my 8 year old to write. Why? Because he was freaking out at any original writing (including letters to people), and he definitely wasn't anywhere near ready to write reports! He needed to do *copywork*. But copywork is boring, and he would mentally check out when doing it.

 

In this case, if I wanted copywork done, I would seek some that my child did not consider boring. That might mean finding material that is funny, or material on a topic they love, or finding material with challenging vocabulary - depending on the child and what would be of interest.

 

ETA: And I totally get where you are coming from in your original post. I've BTDT with the battles of will. Just had one today, in fact. I use it as a chance to evaluate what is going on and to make adjustments that work better for us. It's a chance for me to evaluate what my expectations are and whether they are reasonable and necessary, and to evaluate what my child's complaints are and whether they might have a point. Today, for example, we agreed that she can doodle during our lessons, so long as she is participating in the discussions and so long as she doesn't interrupt the lesson to discuss what she's doodling.

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-How long have you been homeschooling? I caught you pulled them out of school, but is this your first year?

 

-Why, when you're so willing to remove them from the unpleasantness of school, are you NOT bending over backward to capture what can be a very pleasant situation at home?

 

-Are you currently using a form of schedule that shows each child, their track, and what Mother is doing with each dc at a given point?

 

-Have you considered breaking them up and working with your ds first? He sounds like he's more high need emotionally and maybe needs time together, one-on-one, to be stable and ready to do things on his own.

 

-Does each dc have an explicit checklist of their work? Kids age 8 and 9 ABSOLUTELY can work from a checklist or other form of structure.

 

I didn't pull them from school. You may have been confused with what I was explaining from dh and my experiences in school. We've been schooling for 5 years, since my daughter started Kindergarten in the room that used to be our nursery.

 

I have provided what I think they would agree to be a pleasant learning experience most of the time. I seem to struggle with one child per day. Somebody doesn't want to cooperate and the mood spreads. It isn't always the same child and he has plenty of days that he just goes with the flow. Attitude is the crucial factor in determining whether we cooperate and have a grand old time or whether we all leave the room fuming. Yesterday, the attitude was "I don't want to" and not just in school, across the board. I think the situation yesterday (and other days like it) is indicative of my level of frustration. What is perfectly pleasant to one child today is completely vile the next and they don't even have the courtesy to coordinate their days, so every day is somebody's vile day. ;) I lose patience with the constant struggle from someone and "put my foot down" in a battle of wills and it's probably more frequently with ds8 because of his style of protest.

 

We work from a schedule that they "control." I have a tiny pocket chart with a card for each subject. They get to choose the order of attack and arrange as such. I surprise them by hiding the "break/snack" card behind another card, because they like the surprise of finding it when they turn a finished subject card over. Frankly, they've settled into a routine they like as far as order and they don't rearrange the cards much any more. The schedule has times with mom based on subject - Bible, FLL, History narration, several of ds6's subjects, and certain days of older kids' subjects - they only need me on Monday, Thursdays and Fridays for spelling, for instance. When Mom is working with someone else, the others are to be working on their Independent Work Contract, which isn't explicitly on the schedule as it is the tandem to certain other subjects.

 

All 3 children have a check list of assignments that I call their "Independent Work Contract." They generally work on those with little fuss, though not without event, as I'll explain later.

 

The struggles come in lessons where I present new information or instructions (like yesterday's spelling review that I called out, followed by 3 sentences to correct, followed by "circle the words related to those your teacher calls." It should have been a simple 15 minute exercise that turned into a battle of wills. If I'd known it was going to produce the battle, I would have assigned the sentences after the next part that needed me. Silly me, I thought I'd get away with not complicating the order or adding to their Independent Work Contract.

 

We have tried schooling all three separately. It lengthens the time we spend on school as a family by at least an hour and it doesn't necessarily prevent the problems...he and I had similar scuffles when we are alone. I might be able to walk away from the argument, but the work still isn't complete when I return. There isn't enough independent work to keep everyone working during that time, so I end up with mischief or worse, refusal to come to the school room when it is their turn and everyone else is free to do something else.

 

-Why are a boy and girl of different ages labeled the same grade? Was this a convenience move on your part, or does the boy have a dramatically higher IQ than the girl? I can't imagine my dd at 12 keeping up with who my dd now at 13, and that's the same gender. While you can sometimes combine kids for content subjects, for skills some separation may be helpful. And even with content subjects, I would expect their interests and bents to play out very different ways.

 

-Do you feel the older dc in this situation is being taught to her challenge/max? There are instructional levels where the kid can glide, be happily challenged, or be pushed to frustration. Where is the older in that spectrum with her current set-up of work?

 

There are a few reasons for this. Early on, as we progressed in levels that didn't correspond with traditional school age and grade, dh and I decided that for society's sake, we'd label our kids' grade level as the number of years they'd been in school after Kindergarten. Just so the kids could have a grade to answer when someone asked. I teach each of my students to their potentials, regardless of the number on the front of the book. They both function above that grade level in reading and math, so the grade roughly fits their skill levels anyway. Since dd9 and ds8 began studying together, they're labeled together.

 

The second reason is because the goal of Kindergarten in our house is to learn to read. When dd9 (then 4) asked to read, I began some school with her. She picked up reading within a month and has stayed 2-3 grade levels ahead of her "grade" ever since. Her Kindergarten began as reading lessons and then I slowly added other skills and topics. Ds8 (then 3) really wanted to take part. I patted his head and said, "sure you can! here's a coloring page for the letter A." I should have seen from that moment on that he would demand control over his school. He insisted on doing exactly what sister was doing. It took 2 months for him to learn to read (at age 3) and a few more months for his handwriting to surpass hers, but he did everything she did, with every bit of skill. We have never encountered a topic or concept that eluded him. He functions at least at her level and beyond.

 

Further, I've never actually said it before, but yes, he's "brighter" than his older sister, who is only 11 months his senior. She's above average, but he truly excels. He's gifted in many areas (she has her strengths, too) and surpasses her in a few. We combine content subjects, naturally. I differentiate all of our studies for each student in what they produce. Our math curriculum naturally lends itself to this, as I design the practice problems per student based on their record of success. They are nearly identical in abilities so I easily introduce a new concept to both and practice with them. Their individual practice varies in the number and frequency for each skill/concept. Though our spelling curriculum wasn't designed with this in mind, I individualize their lists. We pretest on Monday and I compose a list based on their success on that. For instance, if the word 'cherry' is spelled correctly on the pretest, I'll make the list-word for study and practice "cherries." Frequently, their lists are identical. Their independent spelling work is specialized for them and they can practice root words together in games and activities. In assignments like narrations, I focus dd on proper spacing and ds on not beginning every sentence with "then."

 

So, I believe they are both being challenged to grow. Writing is each of their weakest area, as was mine in school. They both need practice in the mechanics of it (thus, correcting 3 sentences in full didn't seem like such a bad plan) and in composing their thoughts. We've made great strides this year in this area, but we still have a lot of work to do.

 

-Why are you working them in the same room? They seem to have very different working styles.

There are 3 of them and one of me. :) I do present many lessons to two or three at a time, so I need them together for that. They are free (and I encourage them) to find their own space for independent work, but I need them with me for direct instruction. We have a group work table, 3 independent tables in the school room and they are free to go to their rooms (if they actually work there...we have that problem sometimes). Dd9 and ds8 also have some "independent" work to complete together. They practice facts, poems, and listen to audio versions of some lessons together. My youngest is a very independent worker for his age, but just likes to be in the same room with me. He works through almost anything and is mostly a joy.

 

Ds8 has an independent work contract. He knows what is to be done, but he goes to extra effort to find the "short cut." If there isn't a way to circumvent the system (like he did the spelling corrections), he'll just write sloppily in protest. I'm tempted to say he's creating ways to start a fight over school work. He knows that I'll make him redo it if it is illegible or incomplete, but he insists on pushing the limits.

 

-Why can your dd *not* work alone at all, and why is it an assumption on your part that it's realistic to cater to that?

She is a daydreamer and needs redirection. When she works independently in her room or elsewhere, she does pretty well, though I have "caught" her playing with something instead of doing the work she went in to do. Without a gentle nudge to focus, a single assignment can take f-o-r-e-v-e-r. If I were to walk away, leaving her with an angry, argumentative brother, his efforts turn to her.

 

-Why is your BOY doing the same work as your GIRL?

I've never thought of grammar stage work as something gender specific. We tend to suffer from "the grass is greener" attitudes here and what someone else is doing is obviously better than whatever boring old thing you're making me do. In general, it's worked in our favor. They encourage each other to explore everything. In the content areas, they all want to do everything together. Neither of them have ever shied away from anything as "boyish" or "girly." They just do everything together. That's likely because they are so close in age and that's all little brother has ever been around.

 

-What would it take, if you really sat back and opened your soul and pondered, to get your ds HAPPY in his schooling situation? What if you were willing to dump EVERYTHING and just mentally free yourself for a second, what would that look like for him? What if you opened your mind to that, something radical? This is an exercise I try to do myself each year with my dd, to make sure I haven't locked into assumptions about how things have to be.

 

-Have you sat down and had private feedback sessions with each dc, preferably in a situation where they are comfortable like a long walk or an ice cream shop, so they can give you their feedback on school and how they feel it's going, what's going well, what isn't working, and what they'd like to change or see happen? Have you written those things down so you can make those changes?

 

We've had discussions before about this kind of thing. I've turned our world upside down before, changing from afternoon school to morning school because it suits them better, but Mommy is a walking zombie (probably feeding our butting heads problem). He'll say he likes this and that. He likes this particular curriculum or the things we study and do in history. He likes math because it is fun and easy. But, what he really doesn't ever want to have to do is write...anything...ever. I gave him the choice of learning cursive (because it is not important to me) and he chose to learn to type instead. So, he is working on typing. I imagine that if we can make some progress in typing, some of these written assignments would be more palatable for him. Still, there are certain things, like diagramming sentences that you just can't avoid writing out...rather, I'm unwilling to allow him the time to construct the frame on the computer while I read through the lesson.

 

I see a good future for him with independent learning, but I feel like he doesn't have the work ethic to complete the tasks right now. I over-manage because he doesn't have the skills necessary to manage himself.

 

 

 

So open yourself to change. Guess that's what I'm saying. :)

 

I'm open to change. I feel stalled out in getting to our goals. I feel like I can't give him any more power over the work he does because he doesn't show me he can handle the independent work I give him.

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Put that kid on contract. Daily list done to quality standard = school over. If he doesn't need handwriting practice, don't force the busywork. It's not essential at this age whether he circles or underlines, but it is essential that he understand the grammar concept and learn to 'show what he knows' to the teacher.

 

You hold office hours at a certain time, where he can get help or request testing out or show his project progress or negotiate the expectations on his next project.

 

He definitely has an Independent Work Contract. The example above was just a middle part of a larger lesson, that admittedly blew up in my face. ;)

 

Tell me more about office hours. I like the sound of it.

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I would suggest making the consequences for wasting time be more meaningful than eating sandwiches for dinner. My son has a DS, so we haven't had to use this, but I do remember another poster saying that for any wasted time (i.e. reteaching lessons), the child just sits for that long during their free time. Maybe that would help provide the motivation you need for them to just complete the work? For us, no screens unless school is complete by noon. We are regularly done by 11 because the kids are motivated to get it done so they can do their own thing. (FYI: This doesn't mean they get to watch tv and play video games for the rest of the day, just that they get them at all).

 

We already had to abolish screen time during the week because it generally puts all of my children in a sour mood. We finish school by noon or 1pm. After lunch, we complete our afternoon chores. We have activities/practice that I consider part of school (gymnastics, piano), so I really try not to use them as a consequence. We usually have about 60-90 minutes before dinner prep needs to happen. That's my consequence window, but if we've struggled in school, usually that time has already been taken up and I'm without a stinger.

 

I'm definitely going to try sitting and doing nothing during days when we do have a bit of time left.

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I think you are characterizing your son's motives unfairly as manipulation, laziness and control issues, while putting a positive spin on your own motivations. On the one hand, you say you want to remove meaningless busy work, and OTOH you basically say "well, it was only 3 sentences of meaningless busywork, not 30, so he should have done them just because I said so." Claiming that they aren't busywork because "there's some value in writing correct sentences" is a rationalization — does he not have ample opportunity to write correct sentences in meaningful contexts, like reports, letters, emails to Grandma, or whatever? Making him recopy boring workbook sentences to correct a few errors is certainly pointless busywork IMHO.

 

 

I don't think you and I disagree. ;)

 

I agree that the sentences were contextually void. The brief reasoning I did in the moment was that we weren't doing a lot of writing (which he needs practice in) that day and the three sentences seemed a reasonably short way to practice while utilizing his spelling words. Ironically, the words and sentences in this spelling book are taken from readings at the beginning of each week, but because we read so many other quality pieces, I'd deemed reading these selections "busy work" and omitted. :)

 

He is a reluctant writer in general. His mechanics/penmanship are not the problem. It's the effort put forth in moving his thoughts from his mind to the paper that he dislikes. I really try to put a reasonable limit on the writing he does each day and this assignment brought his total from 2 sentences to 5. Perhaps I should express this to him. I really do have an eye to minimize his frustration. There are another half dozen writing assignments every day that I omit, simplify or do orally in sensitivity to his frustration level. Maybe he'll appreciate hearing that I'm on his side.

 

I've concluded that to prepare for a similar situation, I need to coach him in asking for special dispensations. This affords us both the respect I was hoping to instill by enforcing the directions in the first place. He'll need coaching in accepting my answer, too. ;) Just the act of asking will give me enough time to think through the purpose and make a better decision that is not fueled by my needing to defend my right to assign what I see fit.

 

I'm gonna stick by my guns on his motives being laziness and control though, because... it takes one to know one. :lol:

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All of this reminds me of the discovery I made about a year ago. Of course, I had always had a lesson plan printed out, but he'd never seen it before. I think our day finally became complicated enough with the addition of his brother, that I relied on it more heavily to make sure I wasn't missing anything and he finally noticed it.

 

The first time he saw it, he asked about the details and said, "So, we have to do all the things listed there and then we're done?" "Yup," I said, half afraid that the list was too long for his taste and I was in for battle. "Why didn't you make a list before?"

 

I think he truly believed that I'd been winging it for the years prior and had been just heaping on whatever I could think of next. :lol: He was much more cooperative once he figured out that I had the group work equivalent of his Independent Work Contract. That's when we went to the list of subjects on the wall for him to see.

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I don't think you and I disagree. ;)

 

I agree that the sentences were contextually void. The brief reasoning I did in the moment was that we weren't doing a lot of writing (which he needs practice in) that day and the three sentences seemed a reasonably short way to practice while utilizing his spelling words. Ironically, the words and sentences in this spelling book are taken from readings at the beginning of each week, but because we read so many other quality pieces, I'd deemed reading these selections "busy work" and omitted. :)

 

He is a reluctant writer in general. His mechanics/penmanship are not the problem. It's the effort put forth in moving his thoughts from his mind to the paper that he dislikes. I really try to put a reasonable limit on the writing he does each day and this assignment brought his total from 2 sentences to 5. Perhaps I should express this to him. I really do have an eye to minimize his frustration. There are another half dozen writing assignments every day that I omit, simplify or do orally in sensitivity to his frustration level. Maybe he'll appreciate hearing that I'm on his side.

 

I've concluded that to prepare for a similar situation, I need to coach him in asking for special dispensations. This affords us both the respect I was hoping to instill by enforcing the directions in the first place. He'll need coaching in accepting my answer, too. ;) Just the act of asking will give me enough time to think through the purpose and make a better decision that is not fueled by my needing to defend my right to assign what I see fit.

 

I'm gonna stick by my guns on his motives being laziness and control though, because... it takes one to know one. :lol:

 

 

Yes to the coaching on how to ASK for things. That's HUGE.

 

You know there's actually a book "The Myth of Laziness"...

 

On the writing issue, SWB has a famous "nibbled to death by ducks" thread from years ago. Google and it will show up. I would suggest you may actually need to do MORE, not less. But make sure it's MEANINGFUL and interesting. I stopped almost all copywork and went to dictation around 1st because dd begged and pleaded. Kids are really individual. I was serious about the LotR thing. And you might try doing the diagramming on a whiteboard. That's what worked for us.

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Yes to the coaching on how to ASK for things. That's HUGE.

 

You know there's actually a book "The Myth of Laziness"...

 

On the writing issue, SWB has a famous "nibbled to death by ducks" thread from years ago. Google and it will show up. I would suggest you may actually need to do MORE, not less. But make sure it's MEANINGFUL and interesting. I stopped almost all copywork and went to dictation around 1st because dd begged and pleaded. Kids are really individual. I was serious about the LotR thing. And you might try doing the diagramming on a whiteboard. That's what worked for us.

 

 

I have the Myth book coming in the mail tomorrow (my library doesn't have it). I saw it in another thread recently and looked it up. Being self-proclaimed lazy, I'm interested to see what his take and solutions are. I read the a first paragraph on Amazon and <_< I was intrigued enough to read it, but I'm not sure I'll agree.

 

We abandoned separate copywork (WWE) as a practice a while ago, because I could never sell him on it. We've been dictating/copying our history narrations for a long time because it takes the scariness, but not the whining, away. He's now progressed to being able to compose his own narration if we note the key words together first. Huge progress! Furthermore, (in favor of setting the kid free) I was sick one day last week and experimented with having the kids read the SOTW chapter on their own and then work together to write a summary. He and dd were able to write a pretty decent narration (with some grammar issues) working together, but without me. My pushing on writing has really been in the area of these narrations. I don't back down on those. I modify and truncate the rest, but they write the narrations.

 

Dad is reading The Hobbit aloud now, I wonder if I can slip in some copywork. I doubt he'll bite. Copying something that is already printed wreaks of busywork, no matter how interesting it is.

 

Again, the balance is of importance. I want to flood him with writing to improve his skills, but a reluctant writer coupled with a busywork protestor is a recipe for many a battle.

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Well you don't have to agree with everything in the Myth of Laziness. It's just a start. The Eides (docs out west) have some research on their blogs showing a delayed EF development curve in the profoundly gifted. At some point your questions will be best answered by eval by someone with experience rather than just guessing.

 

And isn't there anything ELSE the dc wants to write? It's not like there's only SWB's way to get these skills done. He can start a blog or write movie reviews or review lego kits or whatever really floats his boat. My dd was exceptionally writing phobic at that age (as in we ended up doing OT for it), but she did go through a stage where she liked copying recipes. Sometimes weird things strike their fancy.

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Recipes! I wonder if he'd compile my recipes for me. ;-) He might actually like that.

 

He really got in on the act when my 6 year old wanted to make a video review of a Junie B Jones book. We outlined and wrote first, then practiced, then filmed. He was eager to jump in the "writing" process, which I was doing on my computer. His thoughts are forming nicely, now is the time to get over the hump of physically writing it down.

 

The EF thing sounds totally like me and all 3 of my kids. Dh is getting better.

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One other thought . . . if you think your son needs practice in following directions, try cooking together by following a recipe, or try doing science experiments together, especially chemistry where the steps need to be followed carefully (we've enjoyed the book Fizz, Bubble, Flash! which has a ton of experiments to do with mostly everyday stuff from around the house, with simple instructions that kids can follow).

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