Asynchrony and beginning/starting an instrument

[Uff Da!]

In math, we treat addition/subtraction facts separately from the concepts. Is there a way to do this with learning an instrument, specifically violin? My DD gets out her music on her own and claps her way through it. At one point, she tried to play her way through the entire Suzuki book one even though she just started to learn how to read music. She couldn't do it but she attempted every song and refused outside input. The slow pace of acquiring technique is frustrating to her and she is becoming a non-compliant student. Dh says she's being a brat. I think she's bored with the repetition. Any suggestions are welcomed. Thanks in advance.

[Dmmetler]

Drop Suzuki-I know many love it, but when you've got a kid who hates repetition, a program that expects you to start at zero every...single...time and avoids giving you the skills you need to move ahead on your own (via de-emphasizing reading in the first years) is torturous. That's why I didn't choose Suzuki for my DD, even though at the time I was working for one of the largest Suzuki teacher training programs in the SE USA. She's the anti-Suzuki kid. Many, many GT kids thrive in Suzuki-but I'm guessing your DD isn't one of them.

 

What's worked for my DD is to move ahead in theory much, much faster than her performance skills develop, and encourage composition. She also has carte Blanche to go through my library and through various online sites and pick additional pieces when she gets bored-and only a small number of her pieces are selected to continue and refine-most of the rest are play for a week or two and move on. It's a different path, and her teacher and I are constantly reevaluating and changing as needed. But she's learning, she's thriving, and she loves piano and is making connections and conceptual jumps on the theory/composition side almost weekly.

[Donna]

My dd started fiddling to give her new notes to learn while doing her Suzuki violin lessons at the pace her teacher wanted her to go to develop her technique. She could actually play through Books 1-4 while still in mid-Book 1...not by reading music but because she had a good ear but she did not have the technique necessary to play those pieces well.

 

So, my suggestion would be to find a kind of music she's interested in and buy her a book around her level to let her learn those pieces on her own. With violin playing, the technique is absolutely necessary and only repetition will improve it. Not sure how old your dd is but mine was very young when she started to it was relatively easy to make things fun. My other suggestion is to find ways to make the repetition/technique fun...play pieces with different rhythms or in different keys, play them in different places (in front of a mirror, outside in the yard, in different rooms of the house), play them for different audiences (family, stuffed animals, dolls, etc...), make cards with each piece on one set and each technical problem on another then have her pick one of each kind of card and you have to try to guess which technique she is concentrating on....in other words, be creative!

[Uff Da!]

Thank you for the responses. DD's relationship with her teach that is failing. She adores her teacher, is very comfortable with her and doesn't listen to her now. I think I am going to send DD's teacher information later this week and if anyone has more suggestions, links to articles, blog posts and so forth to add to that e-mail- please let me know. I can do creative stuff, fiddling, composition and so forth with her but if it can come from her instructor, it will be better. I think I need to explain DD's asynchrony better as well in that e-mail.

[garddwr]

She might prefer a reading based method that would give her more freedom to move ahead. My dd is using Sassmannshaus alongside Suzuki and is enjoying it. She could probably work through the first book quickly, but the second gets more interesting.

[MASHomeschooler]

How old is she, and how long has she been taking lessons? Does she attend group lessons in addition to her private lessons? Our group lessons have naturally added more variety and motivation, in addition to other benefits.

 

Somewhat of an aside, but one reason we have our kids do violin is that it is something that they do have to put in the time and effort to progress, and I think perseverance is a skill that gifted kids don't get much practice with. We do still mix it up and have fun with it as pp mentioned, and I did let them "play" (appropriately) with it how they wanted to on their own, but during the actual lesson and practice times, they do have to practice the skills they need to be working on.

[Donna]

Somewhat of an aside, but one reason we have our kids do violin is that it is something that they do have to put in the time and effort to progress, and I think perseverance is a skill that gifted kids don't get much practice with. We do still mix it up and have fun with it as pp mentioned, and I did let them "play" (appropriately) with it how they wanted to on their own, but during the actual lesson and practice times, they do have to practice the skills they need to be working on.

 

:iagree:

 

 

Playing the notes of a piece is the easy part, at least around here, but playing it well in tune and musically requires work and repetition. Sometimes it is boring when dd has to practice one shift or one phrase 100 times in a week. Sometimes dd is mad at her teacher for pointing out yet another thing that needs work on a piece. Sometimes she thinks all her teacher does is pick out what is wrong and needs to be reminded that if it is right, her teacher doesn't need to help her work on it.

 

What seems to help for my dd is for her teacher to explain why something needs to be done over and over. If she knows what the point of the exercise is, she is happy to do it. When her teacher first asked her to do something 100 times in a week, she balked...but after seeing over and over that once she's done something correctly that many times the section or shift is now easy to play correctly, she will now pick out things herself and do them 100 times.

[Greenmama2]

My other suggestion is to find ways to make the repetition/technique fun...play pieces with different rhythms or in different keys, play them in different places (in front of a mirror, outside in the yard, in different rooms of the house), play them for different audiences (family, stuffed animals, dolls, etc...), make cards with each piece on one set and each technical problem on another then have her pick one of each kind of card and you have to try to guess which technique she is concentrating on....in other words, be creative!

DD's teacher (Suzuki) is a master of making repetition fun. One of DD's favourites is playing on her back on the floor - with legs flat, legs on the wall, feet on the chair, legs crossed in the air, feet on the dog etc.

That said, DD actually loathed the silliness to start with. She wanted to learn to play & I her words she didn't want to play games. Now she is a little older she sees the point behind the "games".

[Uff Da!]

She might prefer a reading based method that would give her more freedom to move ahead. My dd is using Sassmannshaus alongside Suzuki and is enjoying it. She could probably work through the first book quickly, but the second gets more interesting.

 

We have Sassmannshaus and DD loves it and gets it out on her own to play the songs and clap through. Her teacher has looked through the book for a minute at the end of the lesson but it's not part of the curriculum she has planned to teach. This is part of the reason I think I need to send more information to her teacher about the special needs part of gifted kids. DD can play some songs, her technique is improving but in the Suzuki book she hasn't played twinkle yet. Her teacher isn't a strictly adhering to Suzuki methods (we do sight reading/rhythm/pitch on sight), however the technique first before progressing is traditional Suzuki I think.

 

How old is she, and how long has she been taking lessons? Does she attend group lessons in addition to her private lessons? Our group lessons have naturally added more variety and motivation, in addition to other benefits.

 

She is five and has been taking lessons since October. She does both group and private lessons.

 

Somewhat of an aside, but one reason we have our kids do violin is that it is something that they do have to put in the time and effort to progress, and I think perseverance is a skill that gifted kids don't get much practice with. We do still mix it up and have fun with it as pp mentioned, and I did let them "play" (appropriately) with it how they wanted to on their own, but during the actual lesson and practice times, they do have to practice the skills they need to be working on.

 

I completely agree with this. It's a hard lesson to teach a five year old.

[Tracy]

I wanted to do Suzuki with my dd7 when she was younger, but I couldn't find a teacher close enough. I spent a year looking for a piano teacher, and it was time well spent. I found a teacher that just gets her and lets her follow her interests. She does a lot of theory with her, because she gets so excited about it. She helps her to make connections between music vocabulary and her Latin studies. When she attempts a piece that is way over her head, the teacher just goes with it. And I am finding that she is actually mastering some of those pieces that I thought were way over her head. The teacher constantly brings her new material according to her interests. And dd really wants to learn how to read music, but it is not her strength at all. This teacher just keeps patiently working with her on it but does not focus on it because it can be so discouraging to dd at times. Whatever philosophy the teacher subscribes to, you really need one that can help your dc have fun with it.

[garddwr]

We have Sassmannshaus and DD loves it and gets it out on her own to play the songs and clap through. Her teacher has looked through the book for a minute at the end of the lesson but it's not part of the curriculum she has planned to teach. This is part of the reason I think I need to send more information to her teacher about the special needs part of gifted kids. DD can play some songs, her technique is improving but in the Suzuki book she hasn't played twinkle yet. Her teacher isn't a strictly adhering to Suzuki methods (we do sight reading/rhythm/pitch on sight), however the technique first before progressing is traditional Suzuki I think.

 

 

 

She is five and has been taking lessons since October. She does both group and private lessons.

 

 

How much musical background do you have? Would you be comfortable helping her learn songs outside of her lesson work? Jumping Spider (ds7) has been taking Suzuki cello lessons for the past year. He also was getting frustrated and becoming non-compliant at lessons as the teacher worked through the slow get-the-technique-right methods of early Suzuki instruction. He wanted to play music! I started teaching him myself at home, teaching him the music--and letting him play what he wanted. We kept taking lessons with his teacher because I am a violinist not a cellist and did need her help to teach him proper technique--but we didn't limit ourselves to what she was teaching (and I didn't stress about the technique part at home). Actually, the most progress he made was when we took two months off from lessons when Firefly was born. He practiced on his own, sounding out songs from the Suzuki repertoire and lots of Christmas music. He made the jump to really playing during those two months, feeling comfortable on the instrument and enjoying it. He was still using a modified early bowhold (thumb on the outside of the frog) because the regular bowhold had been frustratingly difficult for him. It didn't matter. He was playing and enjoying it. He was able to play with me and his older sister as part of our Church Christmas program. He plays with a proper bowhold now, and his technique continues to improve.

 

With some children, there really is a need to follow their lead. Their inspiration comes from within and it is deadening to ignore that. I would let your daughter make what progress she can, let her play ahead all she wants. Especially, encourage her to sound out and play other songs she is familiar with. Nursery rhymes, Christmas songs, Sunday School songs, Happy Birthday--whatever she knows and likes. Let her play to the music inside her. Yes, she will likely do some things "wrong". The Suzuki methods seeks to teach correct posture, bowing, and technique from the beginning so the child doesn't learn wrong patterns. I understand the reasoning behind this, but I don't entirely agree. Actually, I think that insisting everything be done right every time goes against Shinichi Suzuki's own thesis that children will learn to play music just as they learn to speak. Do any of us correct our toddlers and insist that they not talk unless they can say every word properly? I can't image not allowing my two-year-old to talk about elephants because he says the word "e'efan". He will learn and correct himself in time. My son played for months with the "wrong" bowhold, and sounded out songs without any reference to bowings etc.. That does not prevent him from later learning better ways of playing. In fact, now that he has many hours of playing under his belt, he is better able to focus on specific things his teacher wants him to do because the instrument and the music are familiar and comfortable.

 

All that to say--follow your instincts regarding what you child needs. I would sometimes call my son's cello teacher during the week to share progress he was making and things he got excited about, and to express my intuition and ideas about what would inspire and motivate him. I think she was glad to listen to any ideas I had because he was so non-compliant at lessons; we really needed to work together to help move him forward.

[garddwr]

One more thought, the true genius in Suzuki does lie in repetition--this is what develops fluency in playing and a one-ness between the student and the instrument. I do think this is critical, so while I encourage you to let your daughter play music as she wants, I believe that at least some of that music needs to be repeated over and over until the music plays itself. I have used incentives to encourage this repetition. My older daughter used to have practice charts to check off and when the chart was full we would go out for icecream together. Jumping Spider needed immediate rewards, especially at the beginning. I would get out a bag of mini marshmallows and he would earn a certain number for each time he play a song on his practice list (fewer for the easy songs, more for newer, more difficult songs). Repetition is boring, but it is also critical--so find whatever works to motivate your child and make it palatable.

[Uff Da!]

Thank you thegardener and everyone else for the thoughtful replies.

 

 

How much musical background do you have? Would you be comfortable helping her learn songs outside of her lesson work?

 

I play violin and Dh is a former middle school music teacher. Between the two of us we can help her. The danger is that everything turns into a "lesson" when we help.

 

With some children, there really is a need to follow their lead. Their inspiration comes from within and it is deadening to ignore that. I would let your daughter make what progress she can, let her play ahead all she wants. Especially, encourage her to sound out and play other songs she is familiar with. Nursery rhymes, Christmas songs, Sunday School songs, Happy Birthday--whatever she knows and likes. Let her play to the music inside her. Yes, she will likely do some things "wrong". The Suzuki methods seeks to teach correct posture, bowing, and technique from the beginning so the child doesn't learn wrong patterns. I understand the reasoning behind this, but I don't entirely agree. Actually, I think that insisting everything be done right every time goes against Shinichi Suzuki's own thesis that children will learn to play music just as they learn to speak. Do any of us correct our toddlers and insist that they not talk unless they can say every word properly? I can't image not allowing my two-year-old to talk about elephants because he says the word "e'efan". He will learn and correct himself in time. My son played for months with the "wrong" bowhold, and sounded out songs without any reference to bowings etc.. That does not prevent him from later learning better ways of playing. In fact, now that he has many hours of playing under his belt, he is better able to focus on specific things his teacher wants him to do because the instrument and the music are familiar and comfortable.

I've never thought of it that way. It's the route DD seems to want to take.

 

One more thought, the true genius in Suzuki does lie in repetition--this is what develops fluency in playing and a one-ness between the student and the instrument. I do think this is critical, so while I encourage you to let your daughter play music as she wants, I believe that at least some of that music needs to be repeated over and over until the music plays itself. I have used incentives to encourage this repetition. My older daughter used to have practice charts to check off and when the chart was full we would go out for icecream together. Jumping Spider needed immediate rewards, especially at the beginning. I would get out a bag of mini marshmallows and he would earn a certain number for each time he play a song on his practice list (fewer for the easy songs, more for newer, more difficult songs). Repetition is boring, but it is also critical--so find whatever works to motivate your child and make it palatable.

 

I have a love hate relationship with incentives and am hunting for a sustainable incentive as stickers and special treats don't work for her. I am thinking that a fancy chess set and giving her a piece at a time might work- or horsback riding....

[Targhee]

Switch to piano

I am not trying to be flippant. DS does both, and is very musically talented. He has perfect pitch, and can replay most anything he hears. However, violin is really frustrating him right now. The technique (wrist, shoulder, bow hand, etc.) is so much more slow to in coming than the actual music is for him that he gets discouraged and sets his instrument down. Then he goes over to the piano and starts playing his violin pieces, with improvised left hand accompaniment. He's been doing violin for almost two years now, and piano for bout 6 months. He's sailing through piano method books and pretty much playing anything Hs teacher puts in front of him. He still plays violin nicely, but his enthusiasm for it is almost gone because his musical ability and his physical technique are so far apart.

[Uff Da!]

Thank you everyone for the help. I forwarded all of your replies to her teacher and she found them helpful, educational and inspiring, even the ones that said "drop violin, drop Suzuki". DD's last lesson went really well as her teacher started with a quick review of what she had already done and ended the lesson with letting DD pizzicato through some Sassmannhaus pieces. I had a decent bribe waiting for DD after her lesson as well.