Ancient Greek or Koine Greek ?s

[....]

My daughter wants to teach herself Ancient Greek or Koine Greek (is that the Biblical Greek ?). I have N O clue where to begin. Does anyone have any suggestions? She would need a program that she could use on her own. I'm looking at the Hey Andrew series, but it seems like we would have to buy a new level every month.

 

Thank-you for any advice!

[mumto2]

To be really basic about ancient greek there are two types, attic and koine. Attic is for reading literature like Homer and koine is for the Bible.

 

For Biblical greek we have been using the Elementary Greek series and like it. Will probably follow up with the books by Mounce. Bluedorn also has a curriculum. Memoria Press is developing one not sure about release date.

 

For Attic two popular choices are Galore Park, which has great samples at their webste, and Athenaze.

 

It all depends on what your daughter wants to use it for.

[Dolphin]

One big difference between the 2 that I am finding is that Koine has a lot more programs out there :)

 

We are using Hey Andrew this year. As we are also doing Latin we are just doing 2 lessons a week. We bought the 1 and 2 bundle. He is just about done with book 2. I don't know a huge amount about it, but, ds has done this entirely on his own, and he wants to keep going. (He came to me the end of last year announcing that he wanted to learn Greek.)

 

Look at the first 2 years as an extensive alphabet book. Lots of places have alphabet books. I just know that Hey Andrew has gotten my son more excited about Greek and not driven him off.

 

Now that he has finished almost 2 books we have been sitting and looking at other programs. He is helping to pick what he wants to use next (and Hey Andrew is still on the table).

 

This is one that we are looking at

http://classicalacademicpress.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=75

 

We were really hoping MP First form Greek would be available, but it is not yet.

 

As a side note, I love GP products, but I believe there is only one level of their Greek program available.

[....]

OK, thank-you! I did notice that there is more out there for Koine Greek. If I bought Hey Andrew, what do I need to buy? Also, could she start at Level 2? Some of the online reviews said that older kids could start with Level 2, because it went over everything from Level 1. How long do you spend on each level? Thanks again!

[Jayne J]

Just an FYI--Memoria Press is saying that their First Form Greek will be available fall 2013.

[SarahW]

If you learn Attic, you can read Koine no problem. If you learn Koine, Attic will be a bit of a mystery.

 

For example. in my Attic class we read parts of the Book of Acts for our second year literature selection. But I have seen people who only know Koine complain that the Book of Hebrews is written in "bad Greek." Which is a really stupid thing to say, since Hebrews just uses some forms that are more common in Attic than in Koine.

 

There are more types of Greek (Ionic, Homeric, etc) but they are generally only learned after learning Attic. Though I did see a Greek program once that insisted that the best way to learn Greek was by way of Homeric. I forget the name of it now. It's an interesting idea. If your kid is really, really, really interested in Homer it could be worth tracking down just for fun.

 

The Teacher's Manual for Athenaze is VERY thorough. My college prof often complained that it was written for Greek teachers who didn't know Greek. So if you're worried about guiding/grading that might be a good selling point for you. It's a good book for younger students, I think. It has a semi-interesting story and some fine illustrations.

 

There is also the books called "Reading Greek" by the Joint Association of Classical Teachers' Greek Course and published by Cambridge. It comes with an Independent Study Guide and Workbook and Textbook (so you have to buy three separate books which are used concurrently, which is how a lot of European language books are set up, but it might take some getting used to). It is, as far as I can see (I have it sitting on my shelf, but haven't actually used it) VERY thorough. It is for independent learners, so there is a lot of hand-holding and review. The story line isn't quite as (unintentionally?) humorous as Athenaze from what I can see, but it also has some good easy quality selections and good illustrations.

[mumto2]

Thanks for this suggestion. I haven't seen it before and will research it soon.

 

 

There is also the books called "Reading Greek" by the Joint Association of Classical Teachers' Greek Course and published by Cambridge. It comes with an Independent Study Guide and Workbook and Textbook (so you have to buy three separate books which are used concurrently, which is how a lot of European language books are set up, but it might take some getting used to). It is, as far as I can see (I have it sitting on my shelf, but haven't actually used it) VERY thorough. It is for independent learners, so there is a lot of hand-holding and review. The story line isn't quite as (unintentionally?) humorous as Athenaze from what I can see, but it also has some good easy quality selections and good illustrations.

 

[Molly]

SarahW, what age did you start using Athenaze?

[Embassy]

I started out with Hey Andrew and then moved to Athenaze. If you are looking at her doing something independently I might go with Elementary Greek. I use Athenaze with both of my boys. They enjoy the story aspect, but I don't think it is something they will be able to do independently until close to high school age.

[Embassy]

OK, thank-you! I did notice that there is more out there for Koine Greek. If I bought Hey Andrew, what do I need to buy? Also, could she start at Level 2? Some of the online reviews said that older kids could start with Level 2, because it went over everything from Level 1. How long do you spend on each level? Thanks again!

 

 

I think you at least need the workbook for level 2. I started with level 1, but with young kids. I think an older child can start with level 2. I made our own flashcards with pages in the back of the workbook. You will need the teacher's book starting at level 3. I also purchased the reader with the audio and it helped my kids learn the alphabet.

 

I think an older child could go through 2 levels a year at least at first. I jumped ship in level 3 so I haven't seen the upper levels.

[SarahW]

SarahW, what age did you start using Athenaze?

 

It was my college textbook, but since I was dual enrollment I was 16 at the time.

 

There is another thread here where a member says she is planning on using Athenaze in Upper Elementary, but she has a background in Greek, so that puts a different spin on things.

 

For younger students I think just doing a slow pace would bring it down to a manageable level. Each chapter has two parts, so you could take it as slowly as a part a week and just spread out the exercises and review them thoroughly from the Teacher's manual. Up to lesson 10 the lessons are pretty simple.

 

Here's a link I found of teachers discussing how they teach Greek at secondary schools, with some good tips in there of adapting a textbook to a lower level: http://people.umass.edu/glawall/greeksc1.html

 

Didn't I read somewhere that one of the Classical publishers was coming out with a Classical Greek textbook for lower level? Details are escaping me right now.

 

I don't want to sound all anti-Koine, but many of the Koine textbooks I've paged through seem to simplify so much that they become confusing, if that makes any sense. Plus, many limit their texts/exercises to just the NT text, which limits the storyline and the type of vocabulary and structure they offer. I mean, in the initial exercises they have to use very simple examples, but if you are limited to phrases from the Bible, that means you'll have to change the text to make it fit the grammar you're drilling, and that means changing the text of the Bible, which usually makes the authors uncomfortable, so then things just get weird. And then you get things like at the end of the chapter a number that tells you the percentage of the Bible you can read, which is just odd.

 

Maybe there's a good Koine book out there that I haven't seen yet. It's possible. Just saying that most of what I've seen looks problematic.

[SarahW]

Thanks for this suggestion. I haven't seen it before and will research it soon.

 

Some teachers in the link I posted in my previous post say they like Athenaze more than Reading Greek.

 

The difference between them, in my rather on-the-fly opinion, is that in Athenaze grammar is presented more inductively, while in Reading Greek the grammar is presented in a more explicative fashion. Students who have an "ear" for language and have a good understanding of grammar will do fine with Athenaze. But those needing more explanation on these things would find Athenaze confusing sometimes, and might be better off with Reading Greek.

[Bocky]

A good place for your dd to start might be Classical Academic Press Alphabet Code Cracker to learn the Greek alphabet. Both Athenaze and Reading Greek are good programs, typically taught in college. Galore Park is for school-aged students, as is Hey Andrew. Is your dd too young for an online class like Lukeion?

[Mom in High Heels]

We're currently using GP and it's going fairly well. Indy is in 5th grade and really couldn't do it on his own. I have to go through and explain things (which means I'm working a chapter or two ahead so that *I* know what I'm talking about). Greek is HARD.

 

ETA: We did the Greek Code Cracker last year and he loved it.

 

ETA2: I'm thinking of using Athenaze, but I keep seeing conflicting info when I look the books up on Amazon. Some reviews say there is no answer key, others say there is, some say edition 1 is better, some say edition 2 is better. Thoughts from those who have used it?

[SarahW]

 

ETA2: I'm thinking of using Athenaze, but I keep seeing conflicting info when I look the books up on Amazon. Some reviews say there is no answer key, others say there is, some say edition 1 is better, some say edition 2 is better. Thoughts from those who have used it?

 

 

The answers are in the Teacher's Edition. Maybe the reviews were thinking that there would be answers in the back of the textbook???

 

I don't know very much about the difference between the editions. I used the 1st. It looks like the 2nd they have a separate workbook? Didn't realize that they were so (apparently?) different. So anyone taking my advice above, I'm thinking of the 1st edition! I have seen 1st edition Athenaze at public libraries over the years, so it's worth seeing if you can get your hands on it and page through it.

 

Most Greek textbooks are "college" textbooks because that is when Greek is normally only taught these days.

 

I haven't seen anyone here mention Latin, but if you're worried about struggling with Greek a year with a kids-level Latin book would pave most of the grammar. While I did Greek before Latin, I see the logic of doing things the other way around. When I did Latin I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what the ablative case was there for, since Greek constructs that case completely differently. If I knew the ablative case first, both the Latin and Greek forms would have been easier for me.

[Embassy]

 

ETA2: I'm thinking of using Athenaze, but I keep seeing conflicting info when I look the books up on Amazon. Some reviews say there is no answer key, others say there is, some say edition 1 is better, some say edition 2 is better. Thoughts from those who have used it?

 

I am using edition 2. The answer key/teacher's handbook is available for purchase at Rainbow Resources. I have the text, a workbook, a teacher's handbook, and the audio cd.

[Dolphin]

OK, thank-you! I did notice that there is more out there for Koine Greek. If I bought Hey Andrew, what do I need to buy? Also, could she start at Level 2? Some of the online reviews said that older kids could start with Level 2, because it went over everything from Level 1. How long do you spend on each level? Thanks again!

 

 

So, He is using the workbooks and the cd. You could start with level 2, I went with level 1 as he was doing it on his own. I figured the repetition would be good. For the most part Level 1 teaches the alphabet. Yes level 2 goes over it, but I think that the learning 2 letters a week was fast enough for him.

 

If you really want her to do it on her own, I would have her go slow. Once all her work is done, if she WANTS to do more, great. DS came up with the idea to do this one his own (thank you Percy Jackson) and the first 2 Hey Andrew books have been great. There are other alphabet books out there, I have just had experience with Hey Andrew. I like that he was easily able to do the work with no help from me. The second book introduces more words so that the student can see how they work together, and he has found that he can read them. Taking the time over the alphabet seems to have made him comfortable with it.

 

I do not feel that doing Hey Andrew 1 and 2 has made it so that we have to stay with Koine. I am thrilled with the introduction it has done. It also was not too much money from what I remember, and he now knows that he really does want to continue with Greek. After 1 and 2 I feel that he can start a more rigorous Greek program and is set up for success. We are going to look at Koine and Attic, Online and DVD courses. He still wants to do it by himself, so we won't do one where I need to figure out how to teach it. He is looking through everything with me, and after the first 2 Hey Andrew books, he knows what he likes and doesn't like.

 

Best of luck.

[fluffybunny]

DS came up with the idea to do this one his own (thank you Percy Jackson)

 

LOL, my ds became interested in Greek because of Percy Jackson as well! Great novels; they got my ds reading independently :)

[....]

A good place for your dd to start might be Classical Academic Press Alphabet Code Cracker to learn the Greek alphabet. Both Athenaze and Reading Greek are good programs, typically taught in college. Galore Park is for school-aged students, as is Hey Andrew. Is your dd too young for an online class like Lukeion?

 

 

Hmmm... I didn't realize that most of the Greek resources were aimed at college kids. I don't know anything about the Lukeion classes. I need to check those out.

 

She and I talked about this thread yesterday and she said that she wants to learn Greek, because she wants to read stories/plays/myths in the original language. :confused1: So....Attic Greek then?

[SarahW]

 

 

Hmmm... I didn't realize that most of the Greek resources were aimed at college kids. I don't know anything about the Lukeion classes. I need to check those out.

 

She and I talked about this thread yesterday and she said that she wants to learn Greek, because she wants to read stories/plays/myths in the original language. :confused1: So....Attic Greek then?

 

Like I said above, most Greek courses are written for college classes because that's where the vast majority of Greek classes are offered these days.

 

An introductory language course is an introductory language course, imo. Both Athenaze and Reading Greek are laid out with enough illustrations/white space/sidebar notes to make them non-intimidating for younger students.

 

Attic will be helpful for reading the classic Athenian plays, Sophocles and the rest. Homer is in Homeric, which is its own creature and would need its own manual to learn. The classic Histories by Thucydides are Attic, and the second half of Athenaze I begins to introduce these (I am only familiar with the 1st edition!). Some poetry and plays are in Ionic or Doric. These dialects are similar enough to Attic that they are usually read by people who know Attic and then use a "crib sheet" to get used to the differences. Bryn Mawr publishes various Greek texts with "helps" for the eccentric things, and these are a great resource when branching out from a textbook.

[Mom in High Heels]

GP Intro to Classical Greek is not aimed at college students.

[Dolphin]

GP Intro to Classical Greek is not aimed at college students.

 

 

Are they going to bring out more levels? I know there was talk of Greek Prep in the way of Latin Prep, but I thought that was planned for Fall 2012. What are you going to do after the one book? I am hijacking a little as we are trying to plan where to go next. My son LOVES Latin Prep, so it would be great if they were going to do that with Greek.

 

Is it Attic Greek that the course teaches?

[SarahW]

 

 

Are they going to bring out more levels? I know there was talk of Greek Prep in the way of Latin Prep, but I thought that was planned for Fall 2012. What are you going to do after the one book? I am hijacking a little as we are trying to plan where to go next. My son LOVES Latin Prep, so it would be great if they were going to do that with Greek.

 

Is it Attic Greek that the course teaches?

 

 

Yes, it looks like it is Attic.

 

I just looked at GP's Greek sample on their website, and I'm sort of scratching my head with it.

 

From the sample pages, it looks really slow and easy. And it has puzzles! No pictures though. Where are the pictures? I need to admire some Greeks when I'm translating!

 

But then I looked at the TOC and, wow, after Ch. 2 it looks like the pace is super fast. The book is only 160 pages, and according to the TOC on p. 66 you start chapter seven, which looks really heavy. Weak aorist active, plus imperfect and future of eimi, and the present infinitive, and more weak aorist actives and vocabulary, all in eight pages! Maybe someone who has used this book can comment on how that chapter pans out with a 13yo student learning Greek for the first time. To me, it looks more like an exam-prep book than a textbook, the super-simple ch. 1 notwithstanding.

[SarahW]

Just wanted to comment that I actually have no dog in this fight. My kid is 6, and I'm planning on doing SSL1 with him this Fall, and we'll take it from there. I just find this interesting.

 

I looked on the MP site, and it looks like for their Greek book they're assuming the student has two years of Latin under their belts already (http://www.memoriapress.com/onlineacademy/classes/latin-and-greek/first-form-greek). So whenever they do make it public it still may not be a good choice for a student who hasn't done Latin.

[Cleopatra]

I haven't completely read all the posts so please excuse me if I'm going over old information. I would really recommend Elementary Greek over Hey Andrew. http://www.rainbowresource.com/searchspring.php?q=elementary+greek We started with Hey Andrew and I really felt that it was perhaps a good program if the child is beginning very young, but for an older child it did not move fast enough. I felt my dd wasted a year using it (she studied it for two). I also didn't like how they moved from the inductive method of teaching to the deductive method, (I think it was about book 4 that this switch happened) It was somewhat confusing, especially for the student.

 

We switched to Elementary Greek and it has been an excellent program. My daughter will move to Athenaze, probably later next year.

 

The Greek Code Cracker is an excellent way to get the child familiar with the Greek alphabet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJpbXU0eTQU My

 

My dd loved it!

[Corraleno]

Hmmm... I didn't realize that most of the Greek resources were aimed at college kids. I don't know anything about the Lukeion classes. I need to check those out.

 

She and I talked about this thread yesterday and she said that she wants to learn Greek, because she wants to read stories/plays/myths in the original language. :confused1: So....Attic Greek then?

 

Athenaze is also used in high schools (although HS Greek courses are not very common in the US). DS rates it easier and much more engaging than Wheelock's Latin, for example. There is a continuous narrative story that flows through both volumes, which is focused on an ancient Greek family at the time of the Peloponnesian War, and which incorporates many myths and stories (e.g. parts of the Odyssey). I recommend the 2nd edition, as it includes additional passages of original Classical and NT Greek, and it has more explicit grammar instruction than the 1st edition.

 

I also highly recommend the Lukeion classes! Regan Barr is a wonderful teacher and the Greek classes are extremely well done. DS took Greek 1 last year in 7th grade, and he was far from the youngest in the class, so it is certainly possible for a motivated middle schooler or an even younger gifted child (I think the youngest student last year was 9). He is in Greek 2 this year and definitely plans to continue through Greek 4 — it is his absolute favorite subject. FWIW, his motivation is the same as your daughter's: he wants to read Greek literature in the original language. And the more he learns about Greek the more he sees how difficult it is to truly translate the beauty and meaning of Greek into English, which only increases his determination to read the real thing.

 

Jackie

[Allearia]

 

 

Athenaze is also used in high schools (although HS Greek courses are not very common in the US). DS rates it easier and much more engaging than Wheelock's Latin, for example. There is a continuous narrative story that flows through both volumes, which is focused on an ancient Greek family at the time of the Peloponnesian War, and which incorporates many myths and stories (e.g. parts of the Odyssey). I recommend the 2nd edition, as it includes additional passages of original Classical and NT Greek, and it has more explicit grammar instruction than the 1st edition.

 

I also highly recommend the Lukeion classes! Regan Barr is a wonderful teacher and the Greek classes are extremely well done. DS took Greek 1 last year in 7th grade, and he was far from the youngest in the class, so it is certainly possible for a motivated middle schooler or an even younger gifted child (I think the youngest student last year was 9). He is in Greek 2 this year and definitely plans to continue through Greek 4 — it is his absolute favorite subject. FWIW, his motivation is the same as your daughter's: he wants to read Greek literature in the original language. And the more he learns about Greek the more he sees how difficult it is to truly translate the beauty and meaning of Greek into English, which only increases his determination to read the real thing.

 

Jackie

 

My son was the younger one in the class and I agree with Jackie. It is hard for me to imagine having gotten very far without the Lukeion class. It is very rigorous and time consuming however. One thing to think about if your child is not ready for the class or you want to dabble first, is to dabble in some Greek while doing Latin. There are a lot more latin programs out there and the background my son had in Latin was a huge help. He hadn't even gotten that far in Latin but was really glad he knew a bit.

 

Also, the Reading Greek book has an audio CD that goes with it, we got just the main book and the cd to listen to for fun. It is a dramatic reading with sound effects of the story in Greek. From what I understand the actors' accents make it a bit less useful, but there is hardly any audio of Ancient Greek out there so it is worthwhile for that.

[....]

One thing to think about if your child is not ready for the class or you want to dabble first, is to dabble in some Greek while doing Latin. There are a lot more latin programs out there and the background my son had in Latin was a huge help. He hadn't even gotten that far in Latin but was really glad he knew a bit.

 

 

She's had about two years of Latin. She also studied German for about a year and she knows a ton of Korean vocab. So, she's like a stamp collector, but with languages. :tongue_smilie:

 

Thank-you all for your suggestions and advice!

[Laura Corin]

 

 

But then I looked at the TOC and, wow, after Ch. 2 it looks like the pace is super fast. The book is only 160 pages, and according to the TOC on p. 66 you start chapter seven, which looks really heavy. Weak aorist active, plus imperfect and future of eimi, and the present infinitive, and more weak aorist actives and vocabulary, all in eight pages! Maybe someone who has used this book can comment on how that chapter pans out with a 13yo student learning Greek for the first time. To me, it looks more like an exam-prep book than a textbook, the super-simple ch. 1 notwithstanding.

 

I used the predecessor to this book, which was the basis for part 1. We did it over the course of a year (so you could easily spread the new book over two years) when Hobbes was about ten, so even if the new book is beefed up, it should be okay for a 13yo. Hobbes had learned other languages before. It is designed as a text book, although it works to an existing exam syllabus.

 

I have contacted the publisher to see if there will be another book after this, or what he recommends as a follow up.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[Laura Corin]

I heard back from the publisher at Galore Park. They have no plans for a further Greek book. He says that most people go on from the GP text to this book, but there are no printed answers available for it. The author will provide hand-written answers, however, if you contact him via his publisher.

 

Laura

[Mom in High Heels]

I heard back from the publisher at Galore Park. They have no plans for a further Greek book. He says that most people go on from the GP text to this book, but there are no printed answers available for it. The author will provide hand-written answers, however, if you contact him via his publisher.

 

Laura

 

 

Laura,

 

Do you know how to contact him? I've sent several emails to his publisher, but gotten no response. I had planned to use this after GP (actually we used the first 2 chapters before GP's came out), and while I can reasonably figure out the early stuff, I really think I need the answers for later chapters. TIA!

[Laura Corin]

 

 

Laura,

 

Do you know how to contact him? I've sent several emails to his publisher, but gotten no response. I had planned to use this after GP (actually we used the first 2 chapters before GP's came out), and while I can reasonably figure out the early stuff, I really think I need the answers for later chapters. TIA!

 

I'll PM you.

 

Laura