At my wit's end with DS12. Any advice welcome. UPDATE at #149

[*Lulu*]

It sounds like you need to attack on three fronts.

 

1st- medical:

Continue to pursue whatever the root of this is. Even if you feel as if no one is listening, keep pushing. Hopefully at some point you will find a medical professional who can help you unlock what is going on with your son.

 

2nd- catching up skills to grade level:

If I were in your shoes I would sit down and make a list of the top three academic skills that are in need of remediation. Then I would make a list of the bare minimum we need to cover each day to start making headway. Now cut that amount by at least 1/3rd. What you are left with is your "hard core" schooling; all forms of fun and any special privilages your ds12 enjoys are now contingent upon the completion of each day's portion of the list. Remove yourself emotionally from this part, if you are giving him the scaffolding and tools needed to complete the work everything else is on him, good or bad.

 

3rd- igniting a fire:

Look at where his interests lie, even if it seems marginal to you. I would approach these areas as a hard core unschooler; strew quality materials related to these interests, find ways to allow him to go deeper and learn without being beat over the head with the fact he is learning, and let him go as deep or shallow as he pleases. Rejoice in his successes and increased interests, but quietly. ("You do an eclectic celebration of the dance! You do Fosse, Fosse, Fosse! You do Martha Graham, Martha Graham, Martha Graham! Or Twyla, Twyla, Twyla! Or Michael Kidd, Michael Kidd, Michael Kidd, Michael Kidd! Or Madonna, Madonna, Madonna!... but you keep it all inside." :p)

 

Hopefully something one of us posts will give you a spark of inspiration in how to deal with this. Even if nothing resonates, know that you are not a bad mom. Did you hear that, YOU ARE A GOOD MOTHER! It is obvious you care deeply and are doing everything you know to do for your kiddos, all of them. (((Hugs)))

 

 

 

 

ETA- I forgot to add critical info about front #2. I would not tie school in a punitive way to fun stuff, but in a incentive way. For example- every assignment you complete earns a sticker, and every day that you earn three stickers you are entitled to sleep in an extra 30 minutes the following morning. At the end of the week if you have more than 10 stickers you can play video games for an extra hour. As meeting the goal becomes easy you very slowly increase the requirements.

[dbmamaz]

do you need a referral for your insurance? make sure you really need one, cuz the county services are rarely as good as private.

 

and yes, if he failed the state tests, you could be put on probation and need to show a plan for remediation. Have you looked in to using an evaluator instead? that option is custom-made for special needs kids, which he is, whether he's labeled or not.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

 

I'm terrified to try. I *think* I can get K12 online free through Virginia. I'm pretty certain, though, that he'd just mess around on the computer and do no work at all. I could try going all Khan Academy for a little while to see how he handles that, maybe?

 

 

 

 

I'd go with maybe something even easier like Time4Learning, supposedly it goes through 6th(?) grade. So he could use it to catch up. He might hate it, but you can subscribe just for one month and see. It would be a way to see if online works for him. If it does, there are quite a few options out there for online learning.

[elegantlion]

Have you consider a sleep study? If he's going to bed at 9 and still exhausted at 11am, unmedicated, I would consider that abnormal, unless during the occasional growth spurt.

[Mnemosyne]

Have you looked at vitamin/mineral deficiencies? There could very well be something else going on, but it may be worth getting a lab done to see if he's deficient in anything. I had pretty bad depression due to a Vit. D. deficiency back in middle school. I started supplementing and it made a world's of difference for me.

[Catwoman]

 

 

3rd- igniting a fire:

Look at where his interests lie, even if it seems marginal to you. I would approach these areas as a hard core unschooler; strew quality materials related to these interests, find ways to allow him to go deeper and learn without being beat over the head with the fact he is learning, and let him go as deep or shallow as he pleases. Rejoice in his successes and increased interests, but quietly. ("You do an eclectic celebration of the dance! You do Fosse, Fosse, Fosse! You do Martha Graham, Martha Graham, Martha Graham! Or Twyla, Twyla, Twyla! Or Michael Kidd, Michael Kidd, Michael Kidd, Michael Kidd! Or Madonna, Madonna, Madonna!... but you keep it all inside." :p)

 

 

 

Totally O/T, but I loved The Birdcage. :001_wub:

[Guest inoubliable]

I'm reading through as quickly as I can, writing some things down, and thinking over some things before I move on to the next post. Thank you everyone for your input. Please feel free to keep adding. I need to take a few minutes, dry my tears, and then start on dinner. I will be back this evening to check for more ideas. Again, thank you so much. This has been weighing so heavily on me for years and today I just feel like something snapped and I got suddenly SO AFRAID. Thank you.

[~Amanda~]

First off, huge hugs. You have gotten some amazing advice, and I don't know if what I have to say could add any benefit to the conversation. My heart goes out to you; I'm dealing with similar issues with my DS11, although not nearly the degree you are. I have completely revamped his curriculum, and downgraded him a grade level in work. So far, it seems to be helping...

 

In your instance, take with a grain of salt because I live in Texas so I don't have to report to anyone, I would consider months to decompress/deschool. No expectations, no pressure...I wouldn't let him sit and watch tv and play video games though. Leave out easter eggs, or rabbit trails, or whatever they are called...books grouped around in different places of things he might be interested in. Yoga, cooking, guitar... you have some great starts. But don't push; anything that seems like your idea he's not going to be interested in. I almost want to suggest tomato-staking-esque, but at the same time, I think you need to focus on the other kids, as well, not spend all your time on the one, so maybe give him a bit of space. Have him help you cook dinner. try to foster that interest. maybe look into classes around town that he could take for the cooking. there are a few here.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

My answer won't be popular ..... But I have to say it.... My son is 8 and can be quite the handful and we have to prod him about 60% of the time to do his work. He has ADHD and is VERY energetic. His issues are not as bad as your sons, but he's not a "normal" child either. He is getting better every year though- we make sure he gets plentybof exercise, my husband is always around and is a very strong role model for him and we are pretty consistent and NEVER him get away with stuff.... All of that has helped.

 

All that to say that DH and I have already decided that if he ever got as bad as what you are talking about (honestly, well before that) he will be going to military school. A good one, not some place that takes the place of juvie.

 

Dh and I are both Army vets, we have seen the army/military take PIA non-motivated boys and turn them into men, REAL, honorable men. Sometimes, they just need to be away from their parents.... The physical requirements of military academies burns off energy and controls all those hormones and they are able to focus.... They are torn down, yes, but they are built back up. And usually come out better....

 

So yeah, if my son was behaving that way, he would be in military school faster than he could say, "I don't wanna."

[elegantlion]

I would also try to find, later on not now, stories of unconventional people who were successful. My ds kind of hooked onto Einstein at that age because Einstein was quirky and didn't do things like "normal" people.

 

Mythbusters guys - making science fun

Monty Python - irreverent but well-educated

Alton Brown - cool cooking guy

Who's that dude that travel the world? Anthony Bourdain?

Those fun guys at a Japanese Steak House

[bettyandbob]

Besides the mental health route, I think I'd find an activity that he would enjoy and let him participate in it no strings attached. It sounds like he's not connected to anything now and he needs a connections to something. Such an activity would not be something more socially isolating like computer games in his room alone.

 

Youth group

Scouts

sports program

rock climbing

TKD

Rock Band music lesson program

Junior ranger volunteer group at a park

Parkour

 

You may have to try a few things and to find the "thing". Let him look at the choices you can afford based on time, distance and cost. Find as much variety as you can. Let him review it all. Set up times to visit different facilities and let him choose what he wants.

 

He has no goals and no interests now. If he doesn't get involved in something he won't have a chance to develop goals and interests. If he finds something that makes him happy, he won't necessarily pick up a normal school pace, but being connected to something will help you interact with him better. And once you find that interest, it can help you with building a curriculum plan for him.

 

I'm not a professional, but I think school won't come until he's got a hook to something.

[mumto2]

Since you asked for suggestions I will offer a couple that have helped with ds12. His sister is basically the "perfect" student for me to teach thinks the same way I do so easy. This causes much resentment which is honestly the basis for many of my struggles with ds(the fact that he is hungry and sleepy all the time doesn't help). He is also gifted.

He likes my attention. He loves my doing school with him. Lately history is youtube and discussion about the basic timeline. I am amazed at how effective. Logic is Fallacy Detective and discussion. Foreign language is quite basic maintenance (did a lot when younger) with flashcards and totally me envolved. Not getting much writing done. He shuts down. Just started WWS1 while I cook dinner-- when he is done dinner is ready. Only completed week one but I have high hopes. Math is LOF and attempting to move forward with abeka.

 

I know this hasn't addressed many/ most of your issues but after a stalled year we are moving forward some finally and this is how. I thought I would share so.....be kind. When all my son can think about is his next meal or sleep progress is rough. Plenty of exercise--he likes that!

 

[bettyandbob]

Besides what I suggested above. I did go down the route of mental health evals. When I did that I made sure what was going into ds's body was clean (we maintained the feingold diet restrictions and were gluten free) and I made sure he was exercising (not as much as I liked). I think it gave my ds a good baseline of optimal performance so we could get a clear eval of mental health.

 

But I do think it may be important for your ds to have something that may look like fun to you, but is a not strings attached activity. I know I said that already.

[texasmama]

Depression? Anxiety? ADHD? Aspergers? Undiagnosed learning disabilities? Several of those combined? It is not unusual for 12 year old boys to be resistant to schoolwork, but you describe a pattern that has been going on since kindergarten/first grade, which is unusual. I think there is more going on than laziness and resistance. I don't know what it could be. I'm sorry for your frustration because it sounds like you have really done a lot to work with him and try to figure out what is going on. Someone out there can help you (some professional), but I am at a loss to say which one. You might start with a therapist who specializes in kids. :grouphug:

[Parrothead]

 

I haven't heard of that book, but I'll check into it. Thanks for the recommendation.

 

No ADHD meds. He doesn't have it. He's been tested for it. He was on something for depression/anxiety and something for bi-polar disorder and another medication to make him sleep at night. It's been years since he was on them. He was put on those right after he attempted suicide. He was 9. :crying: Things have NEVER gotten that bad again since that incident, thankfully.

 

No "deschooling" other than the summer break. This sounds interesting to me. Unschooling doesn't usually appeal to me, but maybe kiddo needs some time to decompress. I will look into this further, too.

 

Wait? What? He attempted suicide and the doctor's don't think he is suffering from depression?

[Catwoman]

Wait? What? He attempted suicide and the doctor's don't think he is suffering from depression?

 

 

I was wondering about that, too! :eek:

 

I think it's awful that KK is doing everything she possibly can to help her ds, yet the doctors don't seem to want to take her seriously. It's so unfair.

[Parrothead]

 

No idea. His pediatrician here saw him in September and refused to give us a referral to a child psychologist. He told DS12 to "get with the program" and then told me that DS12 needed a good kick in the butt. Other doctors before him have said as much. They say he's not depressed. One said that he was "willfully defiant".

 

You need to find a different doctor. Both of these are unacceptable in a physician.

[Deee]

I have a son with similar tendencies towards procrastination and work aviodance. He has mild dyspraxia, so writing is a chore, but there is nothing else going on except that he is lazy. He struggled to make lasting friends until very recently. The change has been remarkable. But he's still lazy! I sit with him through most of his school work. He simply isn't ready for independent work yet, and I think working with him is half the joy of homeschool, even when he's being vile. But I'm lucky: I only have one kid to worry about.

 

I know a lot of natural learners from our homeschool group (we are Steiner homeschoolers who are becoming progressively more classical as DS12 gets older). While natural learning is not for us, it may work for your situation. I think Khan academy would work well for maths: let him do the online questions. If you want a "proper" maths program, try year 7 of MEP (its designed for kids who haven't used MEP before). Start with the interactive tutorials. They're pretty easy and you get lots of positive reinforcement. MEP turned maths around for us - it used to be a battleground. Ditch writing for a while. Get him to draw cartoons or make lego movies of what he learns instead. Read ANYTHING, even if its complete dross. Join the lego club and read the lego magazine with him. Buy him a guitar and get him lessons, preferably with a male teacher so he someone else to bond with. Do TaeKwanDo. Make him exercise (this works wonders for mental health - I see it in my husband who controls his depression with exercise). Turn around the way you see him: he can be your helper with the younger kids, not the hindrance. Get him to teach them and read to them. Its a great way to revise and suss out where his knowledge is weak. If it works, pay him to tutor them. No you aren't rewarding crappy behaviour, you're giving him an incentive to come good. Most adults don't work for free.

 

He's old enough to discuss this change to his school work with him. He knows he's a pain in the a#$@ - its become his raison d'etre, a nasty self-fulfilling prophecy that he can't stop and you must. The language around him has to change. You need a support group. This may well be the hardest thing you have ever done, but it will also be one of the most worthwhile.

Hugs

D

[Catwoman]

Turn around the way you see him: he can be your helper with the younger kids, not the hindrance. Get him to teach them and read to them. Its a great way to revise and suss out where his knowledge is weak. If it works, pay him to tutor them. No you aren't rewarding crappy behaviour, you're giving him an incentive to come good. Most adults don't work for free.

 

 

I hadn't thought of that, but what an interesting idea! :thumbup: It would be a good way for KK's ds to feel like the "older, smarter one," and by teaching the other kids, he'd also be reviewing and refreshing his own skills. It might also help his attitude if he thought the little kids were looking up to him.

[Lady Florida.]

How can that be? It sounds like he is extremely depressed and that he has a severe inferiority complex and that he is resigned to being a failure, for the rest of his life.

 

The doctors are wrong, something is going on.

 

 

After reading other posts and your responses, I agree that depression very well could be an issue. If you can, get him re-evaluated. Maybe he really didn't exhibit the "right" symptoms of depression last time you had him tested, or maybe it was the fault of the doctor.

 

No idea. His pediatrician here saw him in September and refused to give us a referral to a child psychologist. He told DS12 to "get with the program" and then told me that DS12 needed a good kick in the butt. Other doctors before him have said as much. They say he's not depressed. One said that he was "willfully defiant".

 

 

I'd "fire" that doctor PDQ. A doctor once told my mother that my brother was faking symptoms just to get out of going to school (he hated school). The following night he was in ER with such a bad kidney infection that his kidneys almost shut down. I hate when a doctor has such a lack of respect for kids that any acting out behavior just means the kid is a brat.

 

<edited out the part about ADHD meds, as I missed your response about it.>

 

Someone upthread mentioned deschooling. Here are some links to deschooling articles. NOTE: If you are not comfortable with unschooling, avoid any links that mention Sandra Dodd.

http://homeschooling...tm#.US_RnTBvOmy

 

Cooking sounds like something that might engage his interest. If you want to turn it into something sort of schoolish, try The Inquisitive Cook (Accidental Scientist). Also, are there any kids' cooking classes in your area? That would get him out of the house and interacting with other kids.

 

More :grouphug: :grouphug:

[EKS]

I would do his schoolwork with him, all of it, until he stops shutting down. Then I'd gradually start having him take some responsibility for bits of it.

 

What I mean by doing the schoolwork with him is that you sit with him and read *everything* aloud. Have him do everything orally with you scribing. Have everything be a conversation.

 

In addition, I'd move all schoolwork up to his input level. If he is gifted (as you mentioned in your OP), he needs a higher level on the input side to stay interested. This might be why the Story of Science is going well. I'd use other materials that have worked well with gifted kids. MCT for grammar, Singapore for math, that sort of thing.

 

I also recommend that you google the terms "stealth dyslexia" and "twice exceptional." If there are signs of giftedness, it is very likely that an LD is being masked (and the rest of the giftedness is being masked as well).

[UmMusa]

Vitamin D. It's good stuff :)

[Parrothead]

 

I'll check out the website.

 

He was almost manic on those meds. Which is why they then gave him a medication to make him sleep at night. It was awful. He spent six months on it. The whole time he was either uncontrollable at the public school or a zombie at home.

 

Vegan here. We try for a raw/whole food diet. Occasionally something from takeout, occasionally beef. (Not for me, but DH and the kids will eat it if we're pinched for time or out with friends.) I haven't noticed a huge difference in behavior. He does get an upset stomach the day after he eats meat, and sometimes within hours of having dairy. He doesn't sleep well. On most nights, he's in bed by 9 pm. If I don't wake him, he won't roll out of bed until 11 the next morning. He's nasty in the mornings. Cranky, tired, whiny. He'll sneak off to go back to sleep. He'll fall asleep at the table or at the couch and claim that he got no sleep. We've tried a new bed, new configuration of furniture, new lighting, moving the guinea pigs in, moving them out. He's tried chamomile tea. I'll try anything at this point!

 

This all screams sleep apnea to me.

[Whereneverever]

 

This all screams sleep apnea to me.

 

 

Ditto.

[starwarsmomma]

I'm assuming he has had an intelligence test?

I have a cousin who is insanely intellingent, yet flatly refused any schooling. He would never voice it (until he was in his 30's) but to him, it was too easy to BOTHER doing the work. He felt the questions were so stupid, to bother answering. The material too dumbed down to bother.

 

My aunt bought him college textbooks and started her own "curriculum". He went from doing nothing to doing only things that were challenging. He would refuse to write a paragraph about his summer but would write huge papers on a complex solar system thing.... (way over my head)

 

I have heard of other kids like this. They are extremely brilliant but shut down when the material is too easy...

My kids are not like this, but I hug you for your efforts!

[Night Elf]

You've been given lots of good ideas. I'd like to reiterate the cooking advice. Give that boy a cookbook! Better yet, take him to the bookstore and look at books together to choose one. Then give him time in the kitchen, probably with your supervision. What a great one-on-one activity. Have him help with grocery shopping, especially for meals he helps plan out. Sometimes recipes need to be altered which means needing to know simple fractions. Tell him you'll work together to make meal plans though because you don't want him making poor choices like too much junk food. If he wants to try a dessert, let that be a special time on the weekend. If you cook together, show him how you wash up at the same time to keep the dishes from piling up. He may find he doesn't mind kitchen duty.

 

:grouphug:

[Parrothead]

Okay, I'm going to add my 2 cents. It sounds like your kiddo has multiple problems and his doctors' have been a bunch of asses or clueless.

 

Attempted suicide at 9? He needs professional help. Sounds like your kid is screaming for help and you are the only one to hear him.

 

First thing I'd do is find a new doctor. Then I'd find a mental health professional for him, without a referral if necessary.

 

I'd make it a priority to get him evaluated for LDs and giftedness. From what you've said he may very well be 2e. Get his eyesight checked, get his hearing checked and if you think it is necessary have him tested for allergies.

 

As for school the poor kid has been given up on by so many teachers it has to have affected his sense of worth. I'd stop all school for a few weeks. Just spend time with him. Play basketball, or Lego or take him for a drive or walk and talk about nothing. Also let him know you are not going to give up on him and that he is worth everything to you. You may have to change how you look at school and your outlook on life in general in order to reach him.

 

When you have had time to catch your breath and regroup start school again. But start slowly and from the beginning. Let your ds know you don't think he is stupid, but you think the previous teachers missed things with him and you want to fill in those gaps. Make sure he can do basic math in his head, i.e., know his math facts Make sure he can read phonetically and understand what he is reading. The staring at the page an not being able to answer questions about his reading means he has comprehension issues. These may be further aggravated if he can't see well. You read a paragraph, have him read a paragraph. Also talk about each paragraph.

 

I'm not sure what grade he is in, but if you get him reading and doing basic math by the time he is 14 he can catch up in history and science and foreign language.

 

And you'll have to sit with him when he is doing school. 12 is just the beginning of when most kids can start working independently.

[*Lulu*]

It sounds like you need to attack on three fronts.

 

1st- medical:

Continue to pursue whatever the root of this is. Even if you feel as if no one is listening, keep pushing. Hopefully at some point you will find a medical professional who can help you unlock what is going on with your son.

 

2nd- catching up skills to grade level:

If I were in your shoes I would sit down and make a list of the top three academic skills that are in need of remediation. Then I would make a list of the bare minimum we need to cover each day to start making headway. Now cut that amount by at least 1/3rd. What you are left with is your "hard core" schooling; all forms of fun and any special privilages your ds12 enjoys are now contingent upon the completion of each day's portion of the list. Remove yourself emotionally from this part, if you are giving him the scaffolding and tools needed to complete the work everything else is on him, good or bad.

 

3rd- igniting a fire:

Look at where his interests lie, even if it seems marginal to you. I would approach these areas as a hard core unschooler; strew quality materials related to these interests, find ways to allow him to go deeper and learn without being beat over the head with the fact he is learning, and let him go as deep or shallow as he pleases. Rejoice in his successes and increased interests, but quietly. ("You do an eclectic celebration of the dance! You do Fosse, Fosse, Fosse! You do Martha Graham, Martha Graham, Martha Graham! Or Twyla, Twyla, Twyla! Or Michael Kidd, Michael Kidd, Michael Kidd, Michael Kidd! Or Madonna, Madonna, Madonna!... but you keep it all inside." :p)

 

Hopefully something one of us posts will give you a spark of inspiration in how to deal with this. Even if nothing resonates, know that you are not a bad mom. Did you hear that, YOU ARE A GOOD MOTHER! It is obvious you care deeply and are doing everything you know to do for your kiddos, all of them. (((Hugs)))

 

 

 

 

ETA- I forgot to add critical info about front #2. I would not tie school in a punitive way to fun stuff, but in a incentive way. For example- every assignment you complete earns a sticker, and every day that you earn three stickers you are entitled to sleep in an extra 30 minutes the following morning. At the end of the week if you have more than 10 stickers you can play video games for an extra hour. As meeting the goal becomes easy you very slowly increase the requirements.

 

 

I just wanted to come back and modify my post because I left out a critical component!

 

The above is part of what we have done with Punk. At this time last year I felt like every completed assignment was a three legged race in which I had dragged his body the length of the field. Since we finally started getting answers, medically, things have gotten better by degrees, but it is slow going. I look around at others here and IRL who are measuring their homeschool race in miles and realize with Punk I am measuring in inches. I know feeling as though the state is breathing down your neck adds another layer to your situation.

 

Let me encourage you to stand your ground where the system is concerned. You have to met this kid where he is, not where some state standard wants him to be. You have years in the system to back up that this issue is larger than where he is receiving his education, do not feel intimidated by the bureaucracy that surrounds the school system. Do what you need to for him and take the other stuff as it comes. (If it comes because, IME with the system and based on what my educator mother tells me, the schools here routinely push kids into the state virtual academy if they are afraid their behavioral issues will impact scores for the school. I've also seen several cases lately where the school has funneled students with mental health issues into the area's hospital/home bound program then into the virtual academy.)

 

Hope any of this was clear and/or helpful. Posting while the kids torment each other makes it difficult to string together a coherent thought!

[Izzy]

I just read the first page but wanted to go ahead and respond. I would be super positive with him and buy him a guitar with lessons plus cooking lessons. Do you have homeschool cooking lessons where you live?

 

He definitely sounds depressed and possibly ADD. I'd get him into a psychiatrist and on a trial of antidepressants. You have nothing to lose and so much to gain from trying the AD's.

 

This probably sounds strange coming from me but I'd try CLE or ACE pacs for LA and math. Drop everything else. The rest is gravy right now. The small workbooks might break it up better and not be so overwhelming.

 

Try to be 150% positive with him right now and relax until you can get into a psychiatrist. I truly don't think he's doing any of this on purpose.

 

(((Hugs))) and lots of PVJ&T!!

[Jenny in Florida]

In addition, I'd move all schoolwork up to his input level. If he is gifted (as you mentioned in your OP), he needs a higher level on the input side to stay interested. This might be why the Story of Science is going well. I'd use other materials that have worked well with gifted kids. MCT for grammar, Singapore for math, that sort of thing.

 

I also recommend that you google the terms "stealth dyslexia" and "twice exceptional." If there are signs of giftedness, it is very likely that an LD is being masked (and the rest of the giftedness is being masked as well).

 

Okay, as someone who has spent the last couple of years struggling with my own son, I can say this. I know we all have a tendency to "see" what we know about when reading about someone else's problems. But I keep noticing things in what you are writing that sound an awful lot like giftedness to me. Yes, it's possible there are some undiagnosed, stealth LDs, too, but this honestly sounds like a bright kid. And if he is unusually smart, but struggling for some reason with the mechanics of doing the expected output, I can absolutely see how he could be incredibly frustrated and bored and just hate life and school.

 

In that case, he could, indeed, be depressed, but only because his situation is depressing.

 

When my kids were younger, we decided not to hold back input for output. We separated the two ideas completely. So, for example, my daughter was ready to learn to count and do simple addition and subtraction far before she had managed to learn to write her numbers legibly. We did all of her math workbooks together, with her telling me the answers to write down for her. Then, at a different time, we worked on writing. I read aloud any book I thought she'd like and, mostly, didn't make her write about it. Instead, she did a simple grammar and writing workbook that allowed her to learn and practice those skills.

 

All of that is to say that I think EKS might well be onto something.

[LucyStoner]

I can't claim to be offering any magic solutions or the solutions your son needs but here is my main thought:

 

That doctor was either incompetent, an ass or both. Find a new doctor. Keep going until you find a responsive one. So many things need to be checked here.

 

- Find a counselor. Call family services and ask for a list of recommendations for counselors for preteens. He may not say much at first but in time, he will open up if the counselor is decent.

 

-Give him some routine to his day. He likes to cook? Why not have him be in charge of making lunch for the family or dinner at least some of the time? Let him watch cooking shows or read cookbooks and write the menus, make a shopping list and such. It's a chore to and gives him a sense of responsibility.

 

-Get him into some sort of social setting be it yoga class, group music lessons, volunteering at a food bank, whatever.

 

-do not make the productive fun stuff a reward for doing academic stuff. Guitar is a productive thing. Get him lessons. Confidence with music could give him confidence with academics. Playing the cello was very good for me as a middle schooler and I was most certainly depressed, living in the wake of trauma and miserable. Music can be a lifeline. If you incentivize school work, make it something he earns daily/weekly. A guitar for a lot of work is too distant and abstract. Think more like movie rental or something small he can earn quickly.

 

-if you continue with academics or when you restart academics, you need to be 100% hands on until he shows you otherwise. You can't expect to get him started and walk off. It's frustrating but it is crucial. When you need to get up to change the laundry over or start the dishwasher, have him come with you and help. Then return with him to his work. Read aloud, talk a lot and scribe if need be.

 

-diet. What is he eating and how consistently. Consider seeing a nutritionist for him. Is he also vegan? Not everyone does well on this diet (I had to start eating meat again after a long stretch of veganism and it almost immediately changed my life for the better. I can do do e without dairy but not w/o animal protein)

 

-I third (fourth?) the sleep study. Lack of sleep is a huge issue.

 

Beyond that, I am just so sorry that your son is having such a hard time and causing so much stress for all involved. Lots of hugs and support to your whole family.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MooCow]

*deleted because I felt it was too personal.

[MooCow]

deleted because I quoted

[briansmama]

 

 

I'll check out the website.

 

He was almost manic on those meds. Which is why they then gave him a medication to make him sleep at night. It was awful. He spent six months on it. The whole time he was either uncontrollable at the public school or a zombie at home.

 

Vegan here. We try for a raw/whole food diet. Occasionally something from takeout, occasionally beef. (Not for me, but DH and the kids will eat it if we're pinched for time or out with friends.) I haven't noticed a huge difference in behavior. He does get an upset stomach the day after he eats meat, and sometimes within hours of having dairy. He doesn't sleep well. On most nights, he's in bed by 9 pm. If I don't wake him, he won't roll out of bed until 11 the next morning. He's nasty in the mornings. Cranky, tired, whiny. He'll sneak off to go back to sleep. He'll fall asleep at the table or at the couch and claim that he got no sleep. We've tried a new bed, new configuration of furniture, new lighting, moving the guinea pigs in, moving them out. He's tried chamomile tea. I'll try anything at this point!

 

6 months of anti-anxiety meds could cause deficiencies that could make a real difference in this situation- I'd order labwork for him immediately. You could be looking at supplementation with magnesium and have his sleep improve greatly, which could help his overall health.

 

I'd also have them look at his iron levels and vit D. Sounds simple but addressing deficiencies can improve quality of life quickly. Ask me how I know :)

 

I'd start with his overall health and work from there. I agree with getting him his guitar lessons. While I would only assign reading (historical fiction, literature, and science) for now, I would keep him on a routine/schedule if that's part of your family culture. By this I mean set expectations for waking, mealtimes, bedtimes, if you haven't already. Keep him moving with chores, limit screen time (again, if that's your family culture, as this is just how I would handle this situation).

 

You can totally do this for him- 12 is still young!

[rosetyler]

It sounds like he could have tourettes syndrome. I have a TS son and he sounds a lot like him. I would try a nuerologist they can dx TS and possibly anything else that is going on.

[Sisyphus]

I have no advice, just wanted to send you a hug and tell you you aren't alone. I have two special needs kids, a variety of diagnoses, and whoever said it's like a three legged race where you drag the other person- SPOTON!

 

Ps didn't work, they just shuffled my oldest on down the line. Hs is better, I know that, but it's literally painful some days.

 

Some days I just want the home schooled kids who learn easily, find joy in learning, are advanced, or even on grade level. Or I want the ps to deal with them. But that isn't the hand life dealt me, I guess.

 

I hope you get answers, and I hope your son, and mine, succeed against the odds someday. Until then, keep swimming, I'll be right beside you!

[Orthodox6]

It sounds like he could have tourettes syndrome. I have a TS son and he sounds a lot like him. I would try a nuerologist they can dx TS and possibly anything else that is going on.

 

I did not notice her citing tics. Did I miss it?

[Guest inoubliable]

Back, and I've apparently run out of "likes" for the day. Again.

 

This is my plan so far:

• eye doc appt
  
• ped appt to request some bloodwork done and discuss a multivitamin
  
• keeping his set bedtime, start a set wake time
  
• pick up a guitar somewhere and try to find affordable lessons
  
• look into swim lessons
  
• "deschool" for a while - have some discussions on goal setting and see what his thoughts are, if any at this point
  
• keep to a schedule of wake time, personal hygiene, chores, "deschool" time. I'll try to keep his interests up in anything I can spot a spark in - Legos, science DVDs, maybe an online class in website coding
  
• when we do start school - the three Rs, back to a level he feels comfortable with, at the dining room table, 100% involved at all times with him
  
• look into sleep study
  
• encourage the cooking (I've started that tonight in telling him that the new mini-food processor is actually for me AND him. He seemed surprised but pleased at this and asked if he could watch a new video that a favorite vegan food blogger just put out.)
  
• pay more attention to artificial colors/flavors in our food.
  

Still reading through responses and adding to my list of things to talk with DH about when he gets home. I quietly picked up my teacher's manual and DS's school books right before dinner and put them away - in the same place that I keep our books from other school years. He raised an eyebrow at this but didn't say a word. He just sat their very quietly and looked like he was thinking. DS8 came over and gave me a hug and said, "I'm sorry you cried today." :crying: I was hoping they hadn't noticed. DS12 saw/heard that, too. He didn't say anything but he came into the kitchen and wordlessly started helping. I don't know if it's too early to hope, but I'm going to take that small bit as progress. I need it.

[Catwoman]

I think you've got a good game plan.

 

Do you think your ds might be interested in an online game design course? My ds is taking one that we purchased through the Homeschool Buyers Co-op, and it looks pretty cool. He hasn't spent a lot of time on it yet, so I don't have a detailed review for you, but if your ds is into gaming, he might like it. The same developer also offers an app design course.

 

Here's a link to the Game Design 1 course:

 

https://www.homescho...e-design-1/?c=1

 

It may not be of any interest to your ds, but I figured I'd let you know about it, just in case.

 

FWIW, it sounds like your ds is a really good kid who is having some problems, as opposed to being a kid who's just looking for trouble and trying to torment you or who is intentionally being difficult. Just the fact that he came out to help in the kitchen (when your other ds mentioned that you'd been crying) says a lot about his character.

[Izzy]

:grouphug: You have an excellent plan. It sounds like you've already seen progress. :)

[Guest inoubliable]

I think you've got a good game plan.

 

Do you think your ds might be interested in an online game design course? My ds is taking one that we purchased through the Homeschool Buyers Co-op, and it looks pretty cool. He hasn't spent a lot of time on it yet, so I don't have a detailed review for you, but if your ds is into gaming, he might like it. The same developer also offers an app design course.

 

Here's a link to the Game Design 1 course:

 

https://www.homescho...e-design-1/?c=1

 

It may not be of any interest to your ds, but I figured I'd let you know about it, just in case.

 

FWIW, it sounds like your ds is a really good kid who is having some problems, as opposed to being a kid who's just looking for trouble and trying to torment you or who is intentionally being difficult. Just the fact that he came out to help in the kitchen (when your other ds mentioned that you'd been crying) says a lot about his character.

 

Oh my, yes! Just tonight he was talking to DS8 about how if wasn't such a screwup that he'd work somewhere designing video games! I was going to tell DH that tonight and try to figure out a way to channel that interest without just putting him in front of a bunch of video games for hours.

Looking into that course right now. Thank you!

 

He is a good kid. Which is what makes this all so awful. I feel like he's desperately trying to tell me something but I have no idea what language he's using. :(

[Guest inoubliable]

(WHY?! Why it that I can "like" posts sometimes, and other times it tells me that I've hit my max??)

[Catwoman]

Oh my, yes! Just tonight he was talking to DS8 about how if wasn't such a screwup that he'd work somewhere designing video games! I was going to tell DH that tonight and try to figure out a way to channel that interest without just putting him in front of a bunch of video games for hours.

Looking into that course right now. Thank you!

 

He is a good kid. Which is what makes this all so awful. I feel like he's desperately trying to tell me something but I have no idea what language he's using. :(

 

 

Here's a link to the developer's website, in case the Co-op site doesn't have enough details:

 

http://www.youthdigi...e-design-1.html

 

I emailed them with questions two times since my ds signed up for the course, and both times, they responded almost immediately. I was pretty impressed with that.

 

It looks like the kids design a fairly basic game, so you'd probably want your ds to look at some samples before you paid for the course, but the nice thing is that everything seems to be taught step-by-step-by-step, and they don't assume any prior knowledge of game design. It's definitely geared toward kids, so it's not like your ds would be in over his head.

[redsquirrel]

Wait, what? You have a kid who attempted suicide at NINE? and you get told by a ped that this child doesn't have issues with depression? With a suicide attempt at NINE?

 

first off, you need a new doctor. Preferably one who can read a medial chart.

 

This is screaming mental health issues to me. Just the fact that you initially had a bi-polar diagnosis for him at a younger age suggests that he has manifested some symptoms of a mental health issue for some time. And with children, things change and a diagnosis that seemed right may no longer fit, but that doesn't change the fact that the child still needs help and support.

 

And you might see if your library has the book "the myth of laziness"

[tex-mex]

 

I did wonder one thing, in all of the testing/evaluating that was done did they rule out all LDs?

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

I will make a note later... but do not want to label anything.

[Lanny]

BiPolar…… Sleep Apnea does sound like a possibility. Two of my friends (both men) have that. I was going to suggest to you the possibility of using Time4Learning, but 2 posters did, starting with post #53. If he can just work on the basics, starting with the grade level he is truly at now and work up from there, that would help him. I believe it is about $15 or $20 per month.

 

Regarding how to find a doctor who can/will help him. I am not very familiar with where you live (Roanoke?), I have been on I-81 in VA (very pretty there!), and it may be that the help he needs is not available there. Or, that the help he needs, to get diagnosed properly, is not available there. It could be that you will need to take him to a large city, with a Teaching Hospital, to get him diagnosed properly.

 

I lived in a small city in Texas and when I went looking for a professional who knew about P.T.S.D., the one I went to there was a dud. I think I went to him 2 or 3 times and it was a complete waste of my time and money.

 

I called one of the local hospitals and asked for the person who helps patients find doctors. She was clueless, at that time, about P.T.S.D., or doctors with experience in treating patients with P.T.S.D. Then, months later, she called me, and she told me that she had married a man with P.T.S.D. and she gave me the name of his shrink. That worked! I drove about one hour each way to see him, but he was “an expert†(my description, not his…) with P.T.S.D. and very helpful.

 

Once you can get your DS diagnosed properly, then, you can try to find doctor(s) who can/will help him.

 

And, once you have the correct diagnosis, possibly you can connect with other families who have DC with the same problem(s) and find out who their doctor(s) are.

 

You had mentioned K-12 via the state. I believe that would be a terrible disaster for your DS. Just about every post I have ever read about people using K-12 or Connections Academy, paid for by their state, says the workload is intense. And, frequently, the support is poor or not available. And, depending on the laws in VA, you could end up in trouble, because of his lack of achievement, etc.

 

My DD (12) is a Distance Learning student and she is pretty much on her own, but she does not have the issues that your DS has. I believe K-12, paid for by the state, would be even more intensive than what my DD is doing.

 

There is a group called “Big Brothers/Big Sistersâ€. If they have a branch in your city, that might be a way to get him someone else to look up to, in addition to your DH.

[elegantlion]

check out code.org for programming ideas.

[~Amanda~]

(WHY?! Why it that I can "like" posts sometimes, and other times it tells me that I've hit my max??)

 

on other boards, you aren't allowed to give one specific person so much love without spreading it around a bit. Maybe thats it?

[Guest inoubliable]

Wait, what? You have a kid who attempted suicide at NINE? and you get told by a ped that this child doesn't have issues with depression? With a suicide attempt at NINE?

 

first off, you need a new doctor. Preferably one who can read a medial chart.

 

This is screaming mental health issues to me. Just the fact that you initially had a bi-polar diagnosis for him at a younger age suggests that he has manifested some symptoms of a mental health issue for some time. And with children, things change and a diagnosis that seemed right may no longer fit, but that doesn't change the fact that the child still needs help and support.

 

And you might see if your library has the book "the myth of laziness"

 

Ack! I forgot to address that! Yes. He was nine and the ped that he had THEN was concerned enough that we drove an hour to an emergency psych hold. He's been through a few different docs between then and now, due to moving around so much. We've been here for 2.5 years and he's had the same ped since we got here, who was his ped as an infant, too. In September I asked the ped about DS's seeming moodiness and sort of laughingly asked if it was just pre-teen hormones or if I should be concerned about depression because of a family history of it. He took one look at DS12 and said that basically it WAS pre-teen mood issues and that it would pass with time. :confused1: Honestly, I didn't think to question it. His suicide attempt was five years ago during a time of major upheaval and turmoil in our lives. I honestly thought it was something isolated and in the past. :(

 

The bi-polar diagnosis actually came out of that suicide attempt. He was put on one medication for the depression part, but he was manic at night and couldn't sleep. So we got a prescription for a sleeping aid. He spent six months on that and it was awful for him being drugged all the time. We moved AGAIN and the next ped took him off. About that time he started having pains in his legs. This had been an off-and-on occurrence for a few years. Awful pain that made him collapse, no warning that it was coming, passed out a few times from it. That ped did some blood draws over a few months and said "lupus. Not bad enough to send him to a specialist. Keep him unstressed and out of the sun." He stays out of the sun now, as much as possible, because of what that doctor said and he's convinced himself that this is the only reason he hasn't had a flare. I don't know what to believe because when we got HERE again, the ped said the lupus thing was crap.

 

Very confusing, right? I think a lot of the confusion is because we've had quite a few moves and quite a few doctors involved with his care. Every one of them seems determined to call the last one a quack, too.

 

I'm thinking that I'll start calling around for a brand new ped and get someone with fresh eyes.

[Orthodox6]

. . . and I thought that we had endured lousy professional "help" for our children! . . .