Question

[gracesteacher]

My husband was at co-op with our daughter and they told him to not let her get to far in math and english as we will have nothing to do for HS credit if we let her advance to algebra or where she ends up because those are highschool classes.

She is 6.5 and doing doing multiplication and division and flying thru it saying it is easy. We are in the process of looking for a more challenging program. Do I wait till she is 13/14 to do algebra to make sure it counts for HS or do i just keep going at her pace and cross highschool when we get there?

 

Thanks

[Dmmetler]

I'm trying not to worry about High school until we get there. I've gotten a similar message from the cover school-that if she does Algebra early, (They seem much less concerned about working at a higher level in other subjects, even though she's been using high school and college level textbooks for Latin and Greek for awhile, and is using college level materials for a herpetology class this year). She might "run out" of approved high school classes that she can take, but will still need four math credits to graduate. I figure it's better off to let her work at her pace now, and figure out what to do later-AOPS has some good looking math classes outside the normal high school sequence, and DD enjoys competitions, so if she keeps that interest, I suspect she can keep herself busy through the high school years just working towards those goals. I'm not terribly worried about her passing the Gateway exams-if they're even still around when she gets to high school, and from what I've seen, PS really only cares about having the right number of units on the transcript and those end of course exams, even for their enrolled students.

[boscopup]

With AoPS, I figured out that I can do Algebra as early as 5th grade and still push calculus to 11th or 12th, and if we do it in 11th, we can do Dual Enrollment for math in 12th (that is offered to a select few in public high schools here).

 

Most states assume that if you're taking Algebra II and higher courses, that you have already met the Algebra requirement. There may be some states that do require Algebra in high school, but I couldn't tell you which ones they would be.

 

Remember there is more to math than just the traditional sequence. There are other courses outside the norm that you can use to pad your sequence.

[EmilyGF]

When I was in high school, I finished HS math in 10th grade, then just went to JC. Another guy at our school finished HS math in 8th grade and then went to UC Berkeley.

 

It worked out fine for us.

 

Things also worked out fine for my husband: he wasn't accelerated, took Calculus in 12th grade, and is a theoretical astrophysics prof at a top-10 university.

 

Emily

[Donna]

I'm not worrying about doing Algebra early. There are lots of subjects we can use for math in high school or she can dual enroll in the local college. I know a private school dd's friend attends where bright students do Algebra 1 in 6th, Geometry in 7th, and Algebra 2 in 8th grade...the kids then try to gain acceptance to a STEM high school. So following that sequence dd is really only doing Algebra a year early. (I don't know what the sequence is in high school...I should ask.)

[Butter]

I have a 6 year old doing 5th grade math. It is easy for him and he loves math. He's so into math he's even writing a research report currently on a mathemagician, Art Benjamin (who he met last spring and is in awe of). No way am I going to slow him down. There is plenty of math out there for him to go as long and far as he wants. He doesn't have to stop just because he reached the max of what is usually taught in high school. So basically... ignore the people at co-op. Let her do math and figure out what her official high school math courses are when you get there.

[gracesteacher]

Thank you for the insight.

I never made it past algebra and geometry and hubby got to Calculus. But I thought with her we would just kinda go with the flow. We apparently from her are boring her from recent conversations with her.

Hubby got scared with the conversation with the other parents this morning but agreed to listen to parents with kids that are in similar situations.

Thank you for the reassurance to just continue to be open and follow her lead with confidence and not worry about the future requirements.

[8filltheheart]

I think there are 2 completely separate issues that need to be considered.

 

First, the comment about her running out of approved math is just ridiculuous, so that I would simply ignore. However, a valid concern "might" be the possibility that a student may advance too quickly from concrete concepts to abstract ones and might struggle with higher level math. We have never had a child experience this, though I have heard others that have. So this one I cannot actually address from personal experience.

 

The other is how to meet the needs of taking upper level math courses so the student is able to actually have 4 yrs of math credit during high school. That can be complicated by 2 issues:

 

Perhaps the student does not really like math and the idea of pursuing 200 and 300 level math courses simply bc they need 4 yrs of math to graduate from high school could become an issue. (I do actually have a child like this. She is a very strong math student, but she really doesn't like math. Even at a very relaxed pace she is completing geometry as an 8th grader. I'm not sure how she is going to feel about calculus in 11th, but that is the path she is going to have to take.)

 

The other concern would be does the student have access to classes. Community colleges very rarely offer math beyond cal 2 or 3 (and some not even beyond cal 1) and if they do offer them, they may not offer them every semester or may force dual enrolled students to be the last to enroll which may mean there is no space. Access to university courses makes this one a lot easier.

 

FWIW, here is how this has played out in our family. Our current 11th grader taught himself multiplication through observation when he was 6. He would look at patterns and tell me things like, "mom, did you know that if you have 4 rows of 5 cookies that makes 20 cookies." He would find patterns in everything and topics like multiplication and division didn't even require me teaching him other than to explain to him that, yes, other people had observed the same thing and we call it multiplication. ;)

 

By 8th grade he had completed alg 1 (2 times using a simpler alg text followed by a harder alg text that was very heavy in word problems), geometry, alg 2, alg 3, and a counting and probability course. This yr as an 11th grader he has taken/is taking math at a local university. Last semester he took multivariable cal and this semester he is taking differential equations. (he had the highest grade at the end of the semester last yr in a class of over 90 students.) Next yr as a high school senior he will take linear algebra and another upper level math course (he is actually meeting with the dean of his intended college major at his top choice university to discuss what courses the dean thinks would be in his best interests to take.)

 

The above would not interest my dd at all. In fact, she would hate it. For perspective on what those math courses actually are, my dh and oldest ds are both engineers. By the end of this semester, our 11th grader will have completed all college math required for a chemical engineering degree. Hence, it can possibly be a drawback to accelerate too quickly b/c the option is upper level math courses like these.

 

However, our ds loves all things math and he would have wilted in boredom if we had attempted to restrict his progress. His acceleration in math has also allowed him to accelerate in science, his other passion. Upper level sciences are math dependent. He was able to alg-based physics in 8th grade w/zero problems. He was able to take university cal physics starting last semester even though cal 1 and 2 were pre-requisites at his institution (at some schools they are only co-reqs) b/c he had completed that course work in 10th grade.

 

Anyway, the idea that must not accelerate b/c there won't be math for them to take in order to have math credits on their high school transcript is just ridiculous. They may not be the standard high school credits, but that really is not a serious concern. However, the other issues definitely are. If we didn't have access to university classes, it would be more difficult. EPGY does offer online college classes, so online options exist. But for these levels of math, I am personally glad that ds is in a classroom with a professor (even though he has never needed any assistance, it makes ME happier that a young kid has someone who can help him IRL if he just might need it.)

 

HTH

[mschickie]

Dd will be taking high school Algebra in 6th grade. If she stays on course we will be doing Calculus her freshman year of high school and I am fine with that. I plan on making Calculus a two year program and then after that she can take classes at our local community college.

[regentrude]

My husband was at co-op with our daughter and they told him to not let her get to far in math and english as we will have nothing to do for HS credit if we let her advance to algebra or where she ends up because those are highschool classes.

She is 6.5 and doing doing multiplication and division and flying thru it saying it is easy. We are in the process of looking for a more challenging program. Do I wait till she is 13/14 to do algebra to make sure it counts for HS or do i just keep going at her pace and cross highschool when we get there?

 

What an utter nonsense, the bolded! It makes me really angry to hear that people give such stupid advice.

There is PLENTY of math after algebra, and getting to algebra early would allow time for subjects that are not usually covered in the typical high school sequence: number theory, probability, topology...

 

Let your child advance at her pace and worry about high school when she is older.

 

Just to give you some idea how things can work out: my DD took both algebra 1 and 2 at age 12, started college physics classes at 13, is dually enrolled in calculus based physics at the university at age 15, will do multivariable calculus and differential equations in her senior year. She will graduate one year early.

My DS took algebra in 6th grade, spent one year with the most challenging program, took a semester of probability (which is usually not taught as a separate high school course), finished algebra 2 in 8th grade. He, too, will have plenty of math left to study and graduate at the regular age.

 

The comment about English is even more ridiculous - it is impossible to "run out" of literature.

[regentrude]

Perhaps the student does not really like math and the idea of pursuing 200 and 300 level math courses simply bc they need 4 yrs of math to graduate from high school could become an issue. (I do actually have a child like this. She is a very strong math student, but she really doesn't like math. Even at a very relaxed pace she is completing geometry as an 8th grader. I'm not sure how she is going to feel about calculus in 11th, but that is the path she is going to have to take.)

 

8FillTheHeart, why does she have to take calculus in 11th grade if she does not want to??? She could take a detour through some other fields of math not part of the traditional sequence.

[ccolopy]

I agree with the other posters, there is plenty of math to fill out four years of high school, whether you add in extra topics, go beyond calculus or both. They'll count for high school credit because you decide what counts. For instance, here in Ohio, the high school graduation requirements state that students must have four years of math, including algebra II. But, homeschoolers don't have to meet those requirements. They're a nice guideline, and we'll meet them in every other subject, but for math, they just don't make sense for my DS.

 

The other is how to meet the needs of taking upper level math courses so the student is able to actually have 4 yrs of math credit during high school. That can be complicated by 2 issues:

 

Perhaps the student does not really like math and the idea of pursuing 200 and 300 level math courses simply bc they need 4 yrs of math to graduate from high school could become an issue. (I do actually have a child like this. She is a very strong math student, but she really doesn't like math. Even at a very relaxed pace she is completing geometry as an 8th grader. I'm not sure how she is going to feel about calculus in 11th, but that is the path she is going to have to take.)

I was a little hesitant to post, because I'm afraid we'll be running into this issue in a few years. DS was very, very interested in math when he was 8, 9 and 10 and he still enjoys it, but his main interests have changed. He's now talking about majors and careers that won't even require calculus. Even using AoPS and taking detours into number theory and probability, he'll be starting calculus in 10th. Maybe 11th, but that would be stretching it.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I am by no means a math expert, but doesn't common sense tell us to teach the child standing before us right now, whoever he or she may be and whatever his or her peculiar need?

 

Teach today's child today.

[8filltheheart]

 

 

8FillTheHeart, why does she have to take calculus in 11th grade if she does not want to??? She could take a detour through some other fields of math not part of the traditional sequence.

 

 

It really wouldn't matter what the math is. She has zero problems with math. She just doesn't enjoy spending time doing it and resents that she can't add a 4th or 5th foreign language to her already foreign language heavy schedule b/c of the requirement of other subjects. ;) Right now she is on a foreign language high and will be going to Concordia this summer--that is about all she cares about. :) But, she also has a long love with ornithology and it wouldn't surprise me if one day down the road she completely shifts gears and ends up wanting to major in biology or an environmental science as an undergrad with the goal of graduate studies in ornithology.

 

She'll take AP stats her sr yr vs. moving forward with the cal series. FWIW, it would have been a non-win-win situation any way we had chosen to go. She is incredibly bright (definitely her brother's equal except without dyslexia and is accelerated across all subjects.) She would have been bored to tears w/o acceleration when she was younger and I really don't think that non-standard math courses would really make her want to spend time doing math any more than standard ones. It is just where her interests lie. Give her anything language related (including difficult English literature like Paradise Lost) and she will spend the same number of hrs tackling it that ds is willing to do with math and science.)

[FairProspects]

What if you are not near a major university? Suggestions then? I know AoPS has online classes, how far can those take you?

[8filltheheart]

What if you are not near a major university? Suggestions then? I know AoPS has online classes, how far can those take you?

 

 

AoPS only goes regularly through cal (they do have some higher level courses offered intermittently, but they are things like group theory or tapas.)

 

EPGY is the best source that I am aware of. http://epgy.stanford.edu/courses/math/univ.html

[quark]

What if you are not near a major university? Suggestions then? I know AoPS has online classes, how far can those take you?

 

 

You could take the EPGY route that 8 suggests. You could try MIT OpenCourseware (I'm sure I've seen Diff Eq there). Who knows what else Coursera and edX will come up with in the next few years? Or if you look hard enough, you might by then be able to find a mentor/ tutor you can afford to provide the interaction/ discussion.

 

DS is currently juggling geometry, some algebra review and basic precalc so he might hit calculus before he is 12yo. We are lucky that DS's tutor offers Diff Eq, Linear Alg, and Real Analysis. In fact, in an effort to stretch him a bit further, his tutor is introducing other geometry concepts simultaneously with high school geometry so that DS is now working on two geometry texts, one high school level and one apparently more advanced (and loving it, crazy kid). Maybe by the time he's done the first time through calculus (I plan to have him work on more calc after that if he is okay with it), he might console his mom's heart by redoing some of his high school math using AoPS (currently, we are unschooling the AoPS intro texts and not very consistently) just for the lovely challenge that AoPS presents.

 

Today, I think it's a matter of too many math choices. Not the lack of it. :laugh:

[regentrude]

What if you are not near a major university? Suggestions then? I know AoPS has online classes, how far can those take you?

 

 

AoPS goes through single-variable calculus.

But Open Courseware offers almost endless possibilities for the math interested student!

http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/index.htm#mathematics

[carriede]

Some math topics outside of calc:

Statistics and Probability

Sets and Logic

Physics (algebra based)

Physics (calc based)

 

Of course I took all those in college. Like some previous posters said, look into the open courseware.

 

And, likely, there will be even MORE higher learning options when your DD reaches high school age. That's still 7 years away.

[regentrude]

Some math topics outside of calc:

Statistics and Probability

Sets and Logic

Physics (algebra based)

Physics (calc based)

 

Sorry, but I have to be contrary and point out that physics is not math.

Physics uses and applies math as a tool, but it is something entirely different (and btw will not count as a high school math course, for precisely this reason).

[EKS]

A few things.

 

First, as you mentioned, getting the most challenging arithmetic program you can live with and supplementing with things like CWP or IP or Challenge Math, or Hands On Equations or whatever can help slow down a younger student. Also, it does get harder, and frequently kids will slow down somewhat when then get to the harder problems involving fractions and decimals.

 

Also, with a younger child in algebra and beyond it is nice to have the extra time to go more slowly. My older son started algebra at age 10. We took two years to get through Algebra I. Then we mucked about trying to find a geometry text that worked for both of us, so by the time he was done with geometry it had been another two years. Algebra II only took a year. Halfway through precalculus, we decided to put him in school where he did "Integrated Math" which translated means that he didn't learn much new. A year later, he is being homeschooled again and finishing precalculus. He is 16yo and in 10th grade, so he is a year ahead. He will be going beyond calculus as a dual enrolled student at the local community college.

 

So my point with that long winded story is that I wouldn't worry about getting to algebra early.