Cover/Umbrella Schools?

[Matryoshka]

So, as I mentioned in another post, my high schoolers are making noise about wanting to come home, which terrifies me a bit as they have big dreams and I barely managed to juggle everything in middle school. And the $$$!

 

But, I think it would be wise to work on Plan B so if they really get insistent, I can do well by them. If they come out, I think it would be extremely difficult to get them back in without losing credits or year(s), so I would want a comprehensive plan in place before jumping off that cliff.

 

We live in MA, where many state universities and certainly the flagship won't accept a homeschool diploma and want you to get a GED. True, they may not go there, but I'm panicked enough about affording college at all without eliminating the state school backup plan, and I'd rather not deal with a GED. And, one of my dd's currently has her sights set on trying to attend college in a country where homeschooling is illegal. :glare:

 

So... I'm thinking it would behoove me to figure out some cover/umbrella school options. Anyone have a suggestion for a good choice that would look impressive to the above persnickety institutions but not charge me an arm and a leg, or try to impose too many requirements on me? My guess is I'd do self-made courses mixed with a healthy dose of outsourcing, but I'm not really interested in the cover offering courses, just transcript services and an official-looking diploma.

 

Ideas???

[Pam L in Mid Tenn]

Home schooling is not illegal.

I would contact some support groups in MA and learn what others are doing.

I would also contact someone in admissions and someone in financial aid at a state school. Make an appointment to meet to ask questions and get advise.

Above all, don't panic. I am sure that other homeschoolers have gone to state universities in MA.

[Matryoshka]

Home schooling is not illegal.

 

It is in Germany; that is what I was referring to. I'm thinking they would have no idea what to do with a homeschool diploma.

 

I would contact some support groups in MA and learn what others are doing.

I would also contact someone in admissions and someone in financial aid at a state school. Make an appointment to meet to ask questions and get advise.

Above all, don't panic. I am sure that other homeschoolers have gone to state universities in MA.

 

I've asked on the state list too. I know people have sent their kids without a GED, but this is a recent thing that they're demanding it. There has been a lot of discussion about this on the local boards (and on this one, actually). The smaller state schools are apparently easier to deal with, but the flagship has been a pain lately, and I know some people have chosen just to not bother with them, and others have given up and gotten their GEDs, or they use a cover. They seem increasingly reluctant to just take a homemade transcript. :glare:

[Pam L in Mid Tenn]

It is not illegal in the US.

I am misunderstanding, I think. I originally read "county".

Your dd wants to go to college in Germany and you need an accredited diploma?

[Matryoshka]

It is not illegal in the US.

I am misunderstanding, I think. I originally read "county".

Your dd wants to go to college in Germany and you need an accredited diploma?

 

 

Yes, I know it's legal in the US. I've been doing it for 15 years. ;)

 

And yes, that is currently her wish - to go go university in Germany. Don't know if it will happen (she's till just a freshman), but I don't want to tell her she can't do it because I didn't do the right paperwork...

 

I seriously doubt a German university would accept a mommy diploma.

[Arcadia]

It is in Germany; that is what I was referring to. I'm thinking they would have no idea what to do with a homeschool diploma.

 

 

I'll check what is the requirement for the university your daughter is interested.

 

For example, the university back home in my case does not take SAT. It takes "3 or more AP subjects with grade 4 or better in all subjects" for non-citizens. Since my kids are citizens, they would need to take the Cambridge 'A' levels exams or IB to get in. Our intention is to let them take the Cambridge exams as private candidates as a backup since it open up choices to university applications in the countries where we have close relatives.

[Matryoshka]

 

I'll check what is the requirement for the university your daughter is interested.

 

For example, the university back home in my case does not take SAT. It takes "3 or more AP subjects with grade 4 or better in all subjects" for non-citizens. Since my kids are citizens, they would need to take the Cambridge 'A' levels exams or IB to get in. Our intention is to let them take the Cambridge exams as private candidates as a backup since it open up choices to university applications in the countries where we have close relatives.

 

 

I've been looking this up. For American applicants, German universities require a diploma accredited by the state (or some government institution) as well as four APs in specific courses with good grades. And a language test, but she's already working toward that.

[rdj2027]

Does she intend to go through an exchange program or do it on her own?

[regentrude]

Totally different suggestion, Matryoshka:

have you looked into taking the Abitur as a self-study student (Nichtschuelerabitur)?

That would eliminate the entire problem of a diploma.

[Matryoshka]

Does she intend to go through an exchange program or do it on her own?

 

She wants to do it on her own, and really attend and get a diploma, not just visit. I have suggested an exchange year as a backup plan if she doesn't end up getting in straight away.

 

I'm hoping she comes back someday!!

[Matryoshka]

Totally different suggestion, Matryoshka:

have you looked into taking the Abitur as a self-study student (Nichtschuelerabitur)?

That would eliminate the entire problem of a diploma.

 

I think that might be even more work. :tongue_smilie: I've toyed with the idea of sending her to Gymnasium in Germany for a 13th year, but I was wondering if that might be overwhelming - I know the Abitur is really intense. But I think perhaps less overwhelming than self-studying?? Do you think a year of Gymnasium and Abitur could be a good idea, though? Our exchange student next year is from a German Gymnasium, it could be possible to work something out.

 

At any rate, I was thinking she should go over there for 6 mos at least before actually attending to really, really get fluent. (I know there's test fluent and really fluent - I went to Gymnasium for a year myself :) ). There's also a German International School in Boston that offers the Abitur, but I think she'd have to be enrolled. Also, there's separate entrance criteria if you have an Abitur - I think you're lumped in with the German applicants even if you're not German. Not sure if that would be a plus or a minus, based on number of qualified applicants for each slice of the quota pie.

 

She's got this idea in her head largely from it being talked about as a good option quite a bit at Saturday School, where perhaps a majority are German expatriates. They talk about how it's a great way to get a university education for less $$. And she's been to Germany three times now, and attended school there for a few weeks at a time, and thinks everything is so much more awesome over there.

[rdj2027]

http://www.daad.de/deutschland/nach-deutschland/voraussetzungen/de/6017-hochschulzugang-und-zulassung/

 

This link ( if you haven't seen it yet) gives a little more specific information. If you go down the page to where the red C is you can select USA in the box (looks rather like an advertisement) and then follow the questions. In the end it will tell you what options you have.

[Arcadia]

Also, there's separate entrance criteria if you have an Abitur - I think you're lumped in with the German applicants even if you're not German. Not sure if that would be a plus or a minus, based on number of qualified applicants for each slice of the quota pie.

 

She's got this idea in her head largely from it being talked about as a good option quite a bit at Saturday School, where perhaps a majority are German expatriates. They talk about how it's a great way to get a university education for less $$. And she's been to Germany three times now, and attended school there for a few weeks at a time, and thinks everything is so much more awesome over there.

 

 

My boys german school also promote german universities. If I am not wrong, the students will be taking the Deutsche Internationale Abiturprüfung (DIAP) and will be competing for a different slice of the quota pie. We are near GISSV which was the first school to offer the DIAP.

 

I went to the DAAD link and the criteria is different for my children due to their citizenship. However they would need a student visa while an american won't need one.

[Matryoshka]

http://www.daad.de/d...nd-zulassung/��

 

This link ( if you haven't seen it yet) gives a little more specific information. If you go down the page to where the red C is you can select USA in the box (looks rather like an advertisement) and then follow the questions. In the end it will tell you what options you have.

 

 

Yep, just looked at that this morning. High School Diploma is the big thing. And "no GED" is mentioned specifically. They don't mention homeschoolers, but I'm pretty darn sure that's because Germany doesn't consider homeschooling a valid educational choice. This is why I'm trying to figure out if there's a cover school option that would "fool" them. :tongue_smilie:

 

The APs are for a more specific course of study. I was looking all over for more specifics, dd finally showed me where she found it; it was on, of all places, the College Board's website - it tells you specifically which APs you need, with which scores, for which course of study in a particular country. There's a whole page just for Germany. But APs aren't the problem - those I know how to get while homeschooling.

[Matryoshka]

My boys german school also promote german universities. If I am not wrong, the students will be taking the Deutsche Internationale Abiturprüfung (DIAP) and will be competing for a different slice of the quota pie. We are near GISSV which was the first school to offer the DIAP.

 

I went to the DAAD link and the criteria is different for my children due to their citizenship. However they would need a student visa while an american won't need one.

 

 

The DIAP I think is probably what the German International School offers - it's a full weekly school. My girls just attend a Saturday School, which offers the Deutsche Sprachdiplom II (DSDII) - that just fulfills the language test portion of the requirement.

[regentrude]

I think that might be even more work. :tongue_smilie: I've toyed with the idea of sending her to Gymnasium in Germany for a 13th year, but I was wondering if that might be overwhelming - I know the Abitur is really intense. But I think perhaps less overwhelming than self-studying?? Do you think a year of Gymnasium and Abitur could be a good idea, though? Our exchange student next year is from a German Gymnasium, it could be possible to work something out.

 

 

I am not sure whether the student would be allowed to take the Abitur exam with the class at the schoolif she only attends for one school year - the new system involves somehow points that are accumulated over the last two years (I am not informed about the details, it depends on the Bundesland). You should have your exchange student explain the current situation.

 

At any rate, I was thinking she should go over there for 6 mos at least before actually attending to really, really get fluent. (I know there's test fluent and really fluent - I went to Gymnasium for a year myself :) ). There's also a German International School in Boston that offers the Abitur, but I think she'd have to be enrolled. Also, there's separate entrance criteria if you have an Abitur - I think you're lumped in with the German applicants even if you're not German. Not sure if that would be a plus or a minus, based on number of qualified applicants for each slice of the quota pie.

 

 

What does she want to study? Is it a restricted subject at all? Most subjects have no limit on the number of students, you simply register with the school and show up; having passed the Abitur is the only qualification that is needed.

Now if it is a restricted (numerus clausus) subject, she may be better off as an international applicant, if they have a separate quota.

 

She's got this idea in her head largely from it being talked about as a good option quite a bit at Saturday School, where perhaps a majority are German expatriates. They talk about how it's a great way to get a university education for less $$. And she's been to Germany three times now, and attended school there for a few weeks at a time, and thinks everything is so much more awesome over there.

 

 

I understand the financial aspect. Other than that, we are not very happy with the state of universities in Germany (in fact, they are the reason we never tried to go back home). The new idiotic restructuring of schools to satisfy the Bologna requirements has removed every strength the system used to have and left it with even more negatives.

[regentrude]

The APs are for a more specific course of study. I was looking all over for more specifics, dd finally showed me where she found it; it was on, of all places, the College Board's website - it tells you specifically which APs you need, with which scores, for which course of study in a particular country. There's a whole page just for Germany. But APs aren't the problem - those I know how to get while homeschooling.

 

 

And from the DAAD database, it looks as if with sufficiently high SAT scores, you might not need AP scores at all.

[Matryoshka]

I am not sure whether the student would be allowed to take the Abitur exam with the class at the schoolif she only attends for one school year - the new system involves somehow points that are accumulated over the last two years (I am not informed about the details, it depends on the Bundesland). You should have your exchange student explain the current situation.

 

Good idea.

 

What does she want to study? Is it a restricted subject at all? Most subjects have no limit on the number of students, you simply register with the school and show up; having passed the Abitur is the only qualification that is needed.

Now if it is a restricted (numerus clausus) subject, she may be better off as an international applicant, if they have a separate quota.

 

Yeah, medicine. That's definitely NC (was reading on that this morning too). She's the one who dreams of pathology. About a year ago it was marine archaeology, so it could change again, but I think anything sciencey is NC. She got all fired up going to City Lab at BU last year - she loved the lab work.

 

I understand the financial aspect. Other than that, we are not very happy with the state of universities in Germany (in fact, they are the reason we never tried to go back home). The new idiotic restructuring of schools to satisfy the Bologna requirements has removed every strength the system used to have and left it with even more negatives.

 

 

Honestly, I personally would probably be happier with a year abroad, but that might be partly my wishing she wouldn't go so far away. California would be just about as far, I guess (but the plane tickets are a bit cheaper...). She really wants to see the world, my girl.

 

And I don't understand all the restructuring and how it's working, but I rather liked the 13 years thing, and think they're moving in the wrong direction...

[regentrude]

Yeah, medicine. That's definitely NC (was reading on that this morning too). She's the one who dreams of pathology. About a year ago it was marine archaeology, so it could change again, but I think anything sciencey is NC. She got all fired up going to City Lab at BU last year - she loved the lab work.

 

there is a huge difference between a country-wide NC for majors such as medicine and restrictions that can be imposed by the individual university. Some otehr sciences have only local NC, and physics has none ;-)

 

And I don't understand all the restructuring and how it's working, but I rather liked the 13 years thing, and think they're moving in the wrong direction...

 

In my state, Saxony, which is among the leading states for public school quality, they always did the Abitur after 12 years. The 13th year in other states was basically a waste of time, hardly any new learning and much review; those states definitely did not have a more rigorous Abitur than we did after 12 years. I see the shortening process as a very good thing.

Before the restructuring, students studied for five years at the university and received a Diploma that is comparable with a Masters Degree (we had one year to do research and write a thesis). Some majors finished after 4.5 years.

But now, the new system has only three years to a Bachelor degree. Way too short to go into depth anywhere. They also have a weird system where students select "modules" from which to cobble together an education - my niece is an English and History major, and what she tells about her studies sounds random, unstructured and weird. the bachelor may now be comparable with other countries, but the quality of a bachelor is so abysmal compared with the former Diploma that many employers complain how little those students have learned.

 

The situation may be entirely different in medicine.

 

Has your DD researched how her German credentials would eventually transfer to the US? Will she have to repeat her board exam if she has a German medical degree?

[Matryoshka]

And from the DAAD database, it looks as if with sufficiently high SAT scores, you might not need AP scores at all.

 

I don't think that's true for medicine or science? But yeah, it does seem to imply that if you press "over 1300 SAT"... guess it would help to have her really study for that SAT! That's a lot of pressure on that one test, then! But that still doesn't fix the diploma problem...

[Matryoshka]

there is a huge difference between a country-wide NC for majors such as medicine and restrictions that can be imposed by the individual university. Some otehr sciences have only local NC, and physics has none ;-)

 

Interesting. We'll have to see how her interests develop.

 

In my state, Saxony, which is among the leading states for public school quality, they always did the Abitur after 12 years. The 13th year in other states was basically a waste of time, hardly any new learning and much review; those states definitely did not have a more rigorous Abitur than we did after 12 years. I see the shortening process as a very good thing.

Before the restructuring, students studied for five years at the university and received a Diploma that is comparable with a Masters Degree (we had one year to do research and write a thesis). Some majors finished after 4.5 years.

But now, the new system has only three years to a Bachelor degree. Way too short to go into depth anywhere. They also have a weird system where students select "modules" from which to cobble together an education - my niece is an English and History major, and what she tells about her studies sounds random, unstructured and weird. the bachelor may now be comparable with other countries, but the quality of a bachelor is so abysmal compared with the former Diploma that many employers complain how little those students have learned.

 

The situation may be entirely different in medicine.

 

Also interesting. Was the system in the East pretty much the same as in the West back before reunification?

 

Has your DD researched how her German credentials would eventually transfer to the US? Will she have to repeat her board exam if she has a German medical degree?

 

More research must be done, but we certainly have a truckload of foreign doctors here, so it's got to be doable, the question is more at what point, I think. I think someone in the other thread where I brought this up said you can enter in after the schooling portion when you start you internship? Or was it residency?? I'm still a bit fuzzy. Should go interview some of the German doctors whose kids go to Sat. School...

 

It's such a long and grueling course of study!

[regentrude]

I don't think that's true for medicine or science? But yeah, it does seem to imply that if you press "over 1300 SAT)... guess it would help to have her really study for that SAT! That's a lot of pressure on that one test, then! But that still doesn't fix the diploma problem...

 

Looks like it may not be true for medicine, but the website is not quite clear to me.

If you select the first set of extra APs, it specifically mentions that you can apply directly for specific subjects (one of them being medicine)- but with the good SAT/ACT score, it mentions direct general admission in all subjects.

 

I would contact a few universities and ask specific questions. I have looked at that page before and am not smart enough to figure out what exactly they mean.

 

The cutoffs are not that high - 1300 or 28 are not astronomical. And she can take the test multiple times.

[8filltheheart]

Based on the quote I am wondering if they accept regionally accredited diplomas or only state diplomas? The later would be nuts in terms of the USA b/c that would eliminate the ivy prep schools which obviously exceed the quality of ps education.

 

If you think a regionally accredited diploma would work, you could possibly look into Kolbe. It is an accredited diploma that gives parents flexibility in courses and materials.

[Matryoshka]

I would contact a few universities and ask specific questions. I have looked at that page before and am not smart enough to figure out what exactly they mean.

 

Then I have no hope. :lol:

 

The cutoffs are not that high - 1300 or 28 are not astronomical. And she can take the test multiple times.

 

 

It's probably still wise to have her take the APs. :) If she stays on course, she should have AP Spanish, German, English, Biology, and US History. It's the Calc that's going to be the toughie for her - I was thinking if she really needed it, it might behoove her to take a gap year or semester and study just for that (and then go to Germany early to get her language skills really excellent - it's one thing to speak well, it's another to study technical subjects). But if a high SAT meant no AP Calc needed, that could end up being helpful...

 

There's also somewhere on that DAAD site that says they have courses available in Germany (Studienkollegs) for international students who need to finish up prerequisite subjects. That could also be an interesting option.

[Matryoshka]

Based on the quote I am wondering if they accept regionally accredited diplomas or only state diplomas? The later would be nuts in terms of the USA b/c that would eliminate the ivy prep schools which obviously exceed the quality of ps education.

 

My guess is that by "state" they mean "State", as in government-recognized.

 

If you think a regionally accredited diploma would work, you could possibly look into Kolbe. It is an accredited diploma that gives parents flexibility in courses and materials.

 

How pricey is that, and do they require you to take any of their courses, or could they just take what she did, type it up pretty and give me a nice certificate with pretty official looking stamps? Germans love official looking stamps. ;) I was thinking of something in the vein of NARHS which is more like a transcript consolidation service, but I think they are no longer accredited, so they'd be out. Is Clonlara still around, and what do they offer?

 

I've thought maybe it could work to have her take most of her classes jr/sr year at Harvard Extension, 'cause maybe seeing "Harvard" all over her transcript would blind them to the lack of high school diploma. Or maybe not. :lol:

[Arcadia]

More research must be done, but we certainly have a truckload of foreign doctors here, so it's got to be doable, the question is more at what point, I think. I think someone in the other thread where I brought this up said you can enter in after the schooling portion when you start you internship? Or was it residency?? I'm still a bit fuzzy.

 

A few ex-classmates were offered jobs after residency at a hospital here in the states. They had their MBBS and postgrad exams (UK) done before residency.

[8filltheheart]

 

 

My guess is that by "state" they mean "State", as in government-recognized.

 

 

 

How pricey is that, and do they require you to take any of their courses, or could they just take what she did, type it up pretty and give me a nice certificate with pretty official looking stamps? Germans love official looking stamps. ;) I was thinking of something in the vein of NARHS which is more like a transcript consolidation service, but I think they are no longer accredited, so they'd be out. Is Clonlara still around, and what do they offer?

 

I've thought maybe it could work to have her take most of her classes jr/sr year at Harvard Extension, 'cause maybe seeing "Harvard" all over her transcript would blind them to the lack of high school diploma. Or maybe not. :lol:

 

THis link shows enrollment costs: http://www.kolbe.org/Full-Enrollment/ (First yr enrollment is $320 for the first student. Cost goes down for re-enrollment and for additional children)

 

As far as substitutions w/in courses and wider flexibility in what is studied, their standard diploma is pretty flexible: http://www.kolbe.org/The-Standard-Diploma/

 

Their magna diploma is limited somewhat but still pretty flexible: http://www.kolbe.org/The-Magna-Cum-Laude-Diploma/

 

and their summa diploma is pretty inflexible: http://www.kolbe.org/The-Summa-Cum-Laude-Diploma/

 

HTH

 

[chiguirre]

My guess is that by "state" they mean "State", as in government-recognized.

 

I think this might restrict you to public school. Private schools have regional accreditation normally. In fact, it works the same way as university accreditation. But, maybe they'll accept that since it's the norm in the US. For example, I looked up Andover's accreditation and it's from NEASC NOT the Commonwealth of Massachussetts.

 

As far as getting your medical license in the US, all they seem to care about is passing your boards. I have a friend who graduated from medical school in Venezuela and went this route with no problem. She learned English, passed her boards and did her internship and residency in the US.

[rdj2027]

This is just an example.

 

http://www.eecs.tu-berlin.de/menue/studium_und_lehre/studiengaenge/informatik/bachelor/bachelor_-_studienverlaufsplan/

 

I count 23 "modules" that are all in the major or closely related, done in 6 semesters.

 

In comparison, I had to achieve 124 credits at large university in the mid-west known for its engineering and science programs. Of these 16 were in general sciences (chemistry, physics), 20 in math (calc 1&2, multivariate calc, linear algebra/differential equations), 3 in computer science (C++), 31 in my major (plus 6 from a field exercise) and 48 in humanities, language and electives. It would have been difficult to do it in less because several classes were not taught every semester and some classes always conflicted so you could not take them in the same semester.

 

I took extra classes and ended up with 142 credits plus 9 by exam but most students did not go beyond the minimum of required classes. I still think of my BS as one of the better jokes in my life especially for what it cost in monetary terms.

[Matryoshka]

As far as substitutions w/in courses and wider flexibility in what is studied, their standard diploma is pretty flexible: http://www.kolbe.org...andard-Diploma/

 

Well, even this one requires 30 credits of theology, and she's planning zero. :tongue_smilie: That could well be a deal breaker. How many credits does Kolbe consider a year long course anyvvay? MA differs from most states in giving 5 per course per year, but Kolbe must give 5 per semester?

 

Would they really be okay issuing a diploma to someone who didn't take any of their courses?