S/O how do you deal with defiance from your children? (esp. moms of older kids!)

[Alte Veste Academy]

I know....I am reluctant to take ANYthing positive away. But swim team, time with friends, all of those positive things truly don't seem to have lasting positive effects.

 

I have read dozens of parenting books (it's all I read for the first 10 years or so) but I will check that one out, thanks Alte Veste!

 

No problem. I hope you like it. The thing is that it's not really a typical parenting book. It is more of a book about what is going on in a kid's head. Very helpful.

 

If it makes you feel better, DD is currently grounded for one week because she defied me and then lied about it. She did something that I explicitly told her not to do (something that was potentially damaging to this house, which we are renting). I told her that if I can't trust her when she is out of my sight, then she is not allowed to be out of my sight. But I was calm. She was not calm, but I was. ;) She's calm now though. And she is still on swim team. Man, those are my most relaxing hours of the week. No way I'm letting her take them away from me. :tongue_smilie:

[I.Dup.]

So, discussions like these offer a lot of educational material :).

 

Well I have contributed a few of these discussions, so you're welcome, LOL. It's a frustrating, ongoing issue.

[Alte Veste Academy]

My child says, "Yes SIR!!!" (I'm female) when I tell her to do something she doesn't want to do. She's six, and trying to tell me that she doesn't like the military approach I've taken. :)

 

This is a very interesting conversation. I am really wondering what the teenage years will look like for us. I try to explain the reasons behind everything I tell my kids to do. I don't want to do stuff without understanding the reason behind it, and don't expect that from my kids either. However, they do need to participate in the household, just like I do. They cannot opt not to do chores, or opt not to do school (for the older one, the younger is four and does pick and choose).

 

I often wonder what the future will be like, because I remember what I was like as a teen and I do not want to see a repeat scenario in my own kids. So far, I've been blessed with kids who do what I ask them to do whenever they see the value, and who also respect me as a guide most of the time. Not always, though. I know they are both argumentative by nature, and I can imagine that I'll be starting threads like this in another few years time. So, discussions like these offer a lot of educational material :)

 

LOL Memories! I used to say, "Yes, MOMMY DEAREST!" She should not really have left novels like that lying around for me to read. :lol:

[fairfarmhand]

People say that, but it doesn't seem to have any sort of lasting effect here. She gets home at 6pm and it helps from then until bed time, but it holds no lasting effect for the next day at all.

 

 

 

lol

so the next morning, of course she's out of sorts. I might even add in 30 minutes of intense exercise first thing in the morning. You ARE seeing some of the benefits of exercise, but it won't last forever. :)

 

One thing going here is this dynamic. You and she are both in what I call "the dance." She does a. You do b. She says c. You continue on the same path that you've been on 50,000 times. At some point somebody's got to step off of the train. Either figure out better ways of managing her. or quit RE acting to her.

 

Is obedience the issue? Or is it just a power struggle? If so then you need to figure out ways of defusing the power struggle. If someone's playing tug of war and one party lets go of the rope, the game is over. You have to let go of the rope. Choose your battles. Stop arguing. Let her decide when she wants to do things but let her know that these things WILL be done.

 

use swim team as a tool. Say "here is what must be done today. If they are not done, I will still take you to swim team, but you will have to explain to your coach why you are late. " I might give coach an email or call to let him know that this is an issue.

 

But above all, you have to stay calm and BE the mom.

[LaughingCat]

 

Exactly. Please help me think of consequences to stop it! I have taken screen time, friend time (occasionally), the only thing I haven't taken away yet is swim team and we are very close.

 

If you've taken away much that matters too her and it's not working for you, I would not take away more in hopes that it would suddenly start to do the trick.

 

FWIW, taking things away from my older DD has never worked. Not only does it escalate matters in the moment, it also isn't effective for changing future behavior. What has worked is :

• discussion of what is expected and why (but not in the moment - that just leads to the "constant arguing" affect),
  
• incentives (but only for a limited time),
  
• consequences that don't involve taking something away (like, "If you want me to listen to what you're saying, you need to stop fussing and whining and use a normal voice" ),
  
• snuggle time (similar to a PP's "hug therapy" except it is also done "not in the moment" - this is really relationship building I suppose but it works miracles here - I am looking for what will be an effective replacement as DD grows away from wanting to snuggle).
  

All of these are "rinse and repeat" though and I'm always looking for new ideas too - I just bypass the suggestions to come down hard and fast because I've tried that and it hasn't worked for me.

[Joyofsixreboot]

What occurs to me after reading this whole thread is that I am one of those confrontational, disobedient, beyond stubborn children. My poor parents

[PachiSusan]

I think there's a misconception that Catholics are taught to obey in everything. The obedience is only required *in matters of faith*. A molester is not to be obeyed, and no child that I know is ever told that they must acquiesce to abuse.

[PachiSusan]

so the next morning, of course she's out of sorts. I might even add in 30 minutes of intense exercise first thing in the morning. You ARE seeing some of the benefits of exercise, but it won't last forever. :)

 

One thing going here is this dynamic. You and she are both in what I call "the dance." She does a. You do b. She says c. You continue on the same path that you've been on 50,000 times. At some point somebody's got to step off of the train. Either figure out better ways of managing her. or quit RE acting to her.

 

Don't miss this point, OP. Seriously. I am in the process of changing the dance and it's WORKING. She is used to your reaction. IT's the script. She is just playing along with the script. When you change it up, she'll freak for a while, then it will get better. I'm seeing that right now in our lives. Hang in there Mama. Home schooling has shone to light so many things *I* need work on too!

[fairfarmhand]

LOL

 

I shudder to think if the world were filled with compliant people.

Ironically, I do agree with you.

 

My mother said it best when my dd was 2 yo. She told me, "If you can ever get that child pointed in the right direction, you will not have a single worry. Because NOBODY is ever going to talk her into doing anything that she does not really want to do."

 

I do believe that these kids are VERY challenging to parent, but they will be future leaders. What makes them good leaders also makes them very difficult to parent because they do not yet have the maturity to understand that parents have their best interests at heart.

 

My oldest takes about 85 percent of the parenting energy in this home. I have to carefully MANAGE her. I have to try to see things through her eyes, although its hard for this get along with everyone people pleasing middle child.

 

The challenge for the parents of these kids is to teach them to respectfully, politely speak to others. Railroading other people throughout life is not acceptable. It takes a special kind of parent to teach these kids empathy and respect for other people's points of view. Sometimes I can see my dd digging in, not because she's thoroughly considered the issues, but simply because she;s quickly made up her mind and she will doggedly stick to her guns, even when her position is not correct.

[fairfarmhand]

 

I have posted about my difficult children before, along with many others who have difficult children. It is the most frustrating issue in my life. I have tried just about everything and am constantly trying to figure out where I am going wrong. Feel free to avoid my threads if they frustrate you.

 

And dh and I do not force anything or squash opinions. We are just trying to keep peace in our home and raise respectful adults who can express themselves appropriately and positively (for the most part, nobody is required to be perfect). Even getting a simple math lesson done or requiring that something be done by a certain time turns into a battle. That is what I am tired of- not that my children are not perfectly behaved, silent robots.

 

S :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: Here's what you do. You change the way you are approaching her BEFORE the conflict begins. I find myself expecting my child to be uncooperative, so the first second she does something I get snippy with her. I think sometimes I would be better served if the first time she started mouthing off, I simply smiled and said "Sweetie, I know you didn't mean to be short with me. I really don't want to have our whole day go south from this point, so how about you an I both be really careful about the way we talk to one another this morning, Okay? We've got lots to do and it's not productive for us to stand here griping at each other. So where do we go from here?" I think i

[LucyStoner]

I think there's a misconception that Catholics are taught to obey in everything. The obedience

is only required *in matters of faith*. A molester is not to be obeyed, and no child that I know is ever told that they must acquiesce to abuse.

 

 

I don't think the issue is Catholics and if they are taught to obey (i agree with you on that). The core issue is that children who are taught to always obey adults and respect older family members are more susceptible to childhood sexual abuse in general. Most childhood sexual abuse is not perpetuated by religious leader or strangers, it is within the family. I never make my kids hug relatives they don't want to and I never tell them that adults always know best. It's an extreme example yes, but truthfully it isn't all that far out there or rare. A significant number of children are sexually abused as children.

[PachiSusan]

I don't think the issue is Catholics and if they are taught to obey. The issue is that children who are taught to always obey adults and respect older family members are more susceptible to childhood sexual abuse in general. Most childhood sexual abuse is not perpetuated by religious leader or strangers, it is within the family. I never make my kids hug relatives they don't want to and I never tell them that adults always know best. It's an extreme example yes, but truthfully it isn't all that far out there are rare. A significant number of children are sexually abused as children.

 

 

I agree, however that wasn't what I was reacting to. I was responding to a post that said:

 

"So for Catholic families, to NOT teach our children obedience would be a moral failure on our part.*

 

I'm just clarifying that it's not as simple as that, and no one is taught that if someone is hurting you, you still need to obey. It is not a moral failure to have your child scream "IT"S MY BODY!!! LEAVE ME ALONE" if anyone tries anything on them. :)

 

In other words - teaching respect and obedience have nothing to do with how one teaches a child to be safe from sexual predators. It's a whole different ball game.

[LucyStoner]

 

I'm just clarifying that it's not as simple as that, and no one is taught that if someone is hurting you, you still need to obey. It is not a moral failure to have your child scream "IT"S MY BODY! LEAVE ME ALONE" if anyone tries anything on them. :)

 

In other words - teaching respect and obedience have nothing to do with how one teaches a child to be safe from sexual predators. It's a whole different ball game.

 

Sexual predators rarely look as such. More of them look like your Uncle Dave than like boogiemen. How abuse starts is not usually overt with a clearly abusive act. Rarely does a child immediately know what just happened or know how to react to it. It's usually something that seems *almost* innocuous done by the abuser to suss out a child's reaction. Here is where things to south for a lot of kids. They may not feel they can "be rude" to Aunt Jane or Dad's best friend. They might bring it up to a parent only to have the parent brush their concerns off and say something like "oh, you know Grandpa's very affectionate." Then something else happens and they start to doubt themselves and wonder if they are reading the situation right. Then something worse happens and they feel they can't say anything because their parent dismissed them before or because the abuser is so well regarded in the family or their community. And the abuser does a pretty slick job of reinforcing this in the child. Teaching a child to have unquestioning obedience or to always respect any elder sets them up to not have the resources to know it's ok to "be rude" and ok to say NO and ok to kick someone, anyone (even their uncle). I don't think how parents teach respect and obedience is a whole different ballgame from being safe from abusers. "Well I am supposed to listen to adults and he says..." Kids do not always have the cognitive function to see the gray areas there.

 

I don't think that any parent here, the OP or otherwise, wants to teach unquestioning obedience at all. That said, sometimes the lingo used by parents about obedience in threads like this sounds eerily familiar to the sorts of things that come up when parents ask their abused kids why they didn't tell them sooner. Many kids try to tell. But abusers are smart enough in many cases to not raise the suspicions of the parents and in many cases get the parents to reassure the child that the abuser is a "good person" and "wouldn't do that." Respect and trust need to be earned and if a child doesn't like their older cousin etc don't order them to be nice just for the sake of being polite.

[PachiSusan]

I think we're talking cross purposes. We agree. :) I was only addressing the Catholic part. :thumbup1:

 

Sexual predators rarely look as such. More of them look like your Uncle Dave than like boogiemen. How abuse starts is not usually overt with a clearly abusive act. Rarely does a child immediately know what just happened or know how to react to it. It's usually something that seems *almost* innocuous done by the abuser to suss out a child's reaction. Here is where things to south for a lot of kids.

 

<snip for space>

 

 

I totally understand this. We have had to deal with this in our family so I do make Melissa well aware that NOBODY has the right to do anything with her body regardless of who it is and she is allowed to be away from anyone who makes her feel uncomfortable. We don't force hugs or anything else.

[Amy in NH]

I didn't read the linked post, or the other answers here. If I was experiencing defiance like you mention in your OP here, I would seriously examine my relationship with my kids, the appropriateness of my expectations and rules, and have a long one-on-one heart-to-heart with each of them (individually). I would think we are not communicating effectively - really listening to each other, and that would have to change. And I would make sure they are each getting non-judgmental time with me alone (folding laundry together, making dinner together, etc.) and as a family (playing a game together, going shopping together, etc.)

 

Punishing kids who feel they aren't being heard or respected will not lead to you (general), as a parent, being listened-to or given more respect.

[fairfarmhand]

Can I toss one more thought into this conversation?

 

Many seem to feel that people who teach their kids obedience are expecting mindless robot behavior from their kids. I have no problem with a kid asking why respectfully. However, parents with these d efiant kids expect that any time the child is faced with an unpleasant or undesirable task, parents will face arguments, constant griping and poor attitudes. With these kids, it doesn't matter how often you explain yourself. (that is, if you can explain yourself without being cut off, interrupted or talked over.) They've simply made up their mind to either not do what you tell them, or they will try to make your life miserable until they finally comply. So a simple request can take 45 minutes to get compliance.

 

It's more than simply explaining your reasoning to a child. It's that every request or command turns into a BIG FAT HAIRY DEAL because of the push-back that these kids are capable of dishing out. That's what is SO exhausting about these kids. It's a horrible cycle, and I have been on it more times than I care to remember. Your child is so hard to be around (because the tiniest thing can set them off) that you really don't want to be around them, which damages the relationship, which leads to more poor attitudes and uncooperativeness, which makes you want to avoid them even more....etc. etc. etc.

[2squared]

OP, I was thinking about you last night. I was laying in my bed with my nearly-11yo desperately wishing I was asleep, but giving her 30ish minutes of Mom time that she desperately needs. In my exhaustion my mind wandered to your situation with your 11yo, and I wondered if you ever have times where you feel like you connect with your oldest? Do you have moments where the two of you are in sync? If not, that's where I would start with the discipline and obedience.

 

My oldest needs more of my time now that the hormones are starting to make her feel so different inside, and I'm having a tough time figuring out how make the time for her when it seems like she should be the most independent of the bunch. I find that she is the most successful with her behavior when we have enough connecting time so that we can bridge those (too frequent) moments when her hormones turn her into a nasty girl. I don't know how your daughter is feeling right now, but I know my daughter tells me that she feels angry all the time. Not angry at anyone in particular, just angry and frustrated at life. Yesterday she took herself to her room for a huge cry, and she came out calmer and happier. I know she isn't truly angry all the time, but I can also see that she's dealing with some new stuff in her head and body, and I'm sure those new feelings are overwhelming.

 

I don't know if my dd is anything like your dd, but I do know these kids need their parents desperately and they need to be solidly connected to us before the teen years hit. I live in fear of not having a solid connection when those teen years hit us.

[fairfarmhand]

 

Yes, occasionally that happens. Although I suspect occasionally that happens in all families. One of my son's tasks is to empty the dishwasher. He hates doing it. One day he did gripe about it too much. I explained why it's his task. He said he was going to refuse to do it. I told him what the consequences would be and told him if he didn't just do it quietly without going on and on about it he'd be punished. So he did go on and on about it. I told him to go to bed (it was pretty early in the evening) and that he would lose his computer privileges for a week. It solved the problem because he no longer goes on and on about it and now often does it without even being asked.

 

Maybe my kids are just not generally a pain in the neck because these incidences happen rarely. And I have not trained them to jump when I say jump.

 

So it's not quite accurate to say that my different methods lead to my children making a big fat hairy deal out of everything. They don't.

 

that's not what I was trying to say at all. This was not the point I was trying to make, and I don't think that your kids are like that at all. I respect your right to raise you kids however you feel is right and I don't believe that your methods are making them little stinkers. I was just trying to give some perspective on what life can be like with some of these kids.

 

My post was not a personal attack on anyone.

 

Your post indicates that this type of behavior is an uncommon, or at least irregular thing with your kids. With kids like mine this kind of behavior is a fairly regular thing. It happens at least several times a month. No matter what I have tried, from explaining things to expecting instant obedience to punishment, the arguments and bad attitude continue. (and I have tried TONS of different methods) I will say that at 15 these things happen less frequently than when she was 11.So I suppose it is a stage that she will have to get through and I will parent as best I can in the interim.

 

I do agree with the pp that these kids take MORE energy from 10-??? (what age? I don't know. We haven't made it there yet!) than they did when they were toddlers. That was one huge factor in our deciding to stop having kids. I just could not give my oldest the attention that she needed when I was pregnant, nursing, etc.

[fairfarmhand]

 

Ah ok. Well I think my reaction was just a reaction in general to some of the things said on this thread and elsewhere, but it wasn't right that I made it seem like you were saying it. I hope that makes sense.

 

I suspect no method would work perfectly with very strong willed kids. I think my kids are actually pretty strong willed, but I feel like the more I push and assert my authority over them the worse it is. So I think I've found what works best for me.

 

I still cringe at the whole "obedience" thing though. If I wanted my kids to obey me unquestioningly I think I'd have to beat their will out of them. And there are parents out there who think that's an acceptable way of gaining obedience. And that's the sort of thing I think of when I read some things regarding "obedience" and the "virtue" of obedience. Virtue is an odd word for me as well. I don't know how else a person gets unquestioning obedience out of a very strong willed kid without doing something very drastic is what I'm wondering. And there is also a difference to me between doing what I ask because you learn to and want to or because you are afraid of me. I don't want my kids to be afraid of me.

 

Sorry, that all got kind of rambly.

 

I totally agree with you. When you punish, paddle, etc. a strongwilled child for simply asserting their will, you may get outward compliance, but you almost always end up with simmering anger underneath. Like I said. The challenge with over the top strongwilled kids is teaching them how to respectfully assert their independence, and how to have a good attitude and comply even when you think the person in authority is asking you to do something ridiculous. (see, I said ridiculous...not wrong, not harmful!) Teaching a child the skill of when to back down and when to be assertive is hard.

 

My challenges with my dd is this....

 

1. just because something "feels" crucial to living doesn't mean that it is. (perspective....not getting to text your friends during school time is not the end of the world)

 

2. Tone of voice (being able to assert opinions with out acting/sounding like a bombastic behind)

 

3. Consideration for others (you can't use all the hot water every single morning and be surprised when other people are aggravated with you. You can't constantly carp at people for doing things like coughing when they are sick.)

 

4. Respect for others and their plans/energy levels (Mom and dad are not your personal slaves to drive you wherever you would like to do whenever you want to go. Other kids have needs too!)

 

5. Sense of entitlement. (You can't treat parents like garbage and then expect them to joyfully do things for you.)

 

6. She can't admit when she was wrong, even if she is staring evidence in the face that she was wrong. She somehow finds a way to avoid saying I was wrong. "well, I misunderstood you." "That's not what I meant. I meant something else."

 

7. When to dig in and when to give in. Her win at all costs attitude troubles me for her future relationships if she doesn't learn to let some things go. In any relationship you have to be willing to compromise. This girl sees it as "losing." Even if the relationship is damaged, she can't give in.

[wendyroo]

I don't beat (or spank) my kids and would never want them to be afraid of me, but they need to understand that when I tell them to do something it will get done either the easy way or the hard way.

 

My 20 month old knows exactly what I mean when I tell him to Come to Mama. If he chooses to run away instead then I will carry him straight to time out and sit there with him for a few minutes while we discuss being a good listener. I ask if he is ready to be a good listener and if he nods then we go back to the "scene of the crime" and I again call for him to come to Mama. Rinse and repeat. For safety's sake he will learn that coming when I call is non-negotiable.

 

My almost 4 year old has an incredibly strong will. He is the most negative, argumentative contrarian I have every met. The other day he spent 30 minutes arguing that it was hot outside...during a blizzard. The astonishing part (to me) is that he was alone in a room - no one was arguing against him. He is always spoiling for a fight. He had come to me full of piss and vinegar telling me in his most argumentative voice that it was hot outside. I asked if he wanted to put on his bathing suit. He lost it, crying and arguing that it "was too hot outside!!!". I walked away to let it runs its course and he stayed in that room ranting and raving and arguing with the world for 30 minutes.

 

It is like that everyday and on some things I can't afford to back down. He will hold my hand in parking lots - he has demonstrated that he cannot safely walk by himself - and I refuse to argue for half an hour about him needing to hold my hand for a 2 minute walk. He must, he will, let it be spoken let it be done.

 

Wendy

[fairfarmhand]

I don't beat (or spank) my kids and would never want them to be afraid of me, but they need to understand that when I tell them to do something it will get done either the easy way or the hard way.

 

My 20 month old knows exactly what I mean when I tell him to Come to Mama. If he chooses to run away instead then I will carry him straight to time out and sit there with him for a few minutes while we discuss being a good listener. I ask if he is ready to be a good listener and if he nods then we go back to the "scene of the crime" and I again call for him to come to Mama. Rinse and repeat. For safety's sake he will learn that coming when I call is non-negotiable.

 

My almost 4 year old has an incredibly strong will. He is the most negative, argumentative contrarian I have every met. The other day he spent 30 minutes arguing that it was hot outside...during a blizzard. The astonishing part (to me) is that he was alone in a room - no one was arguing against him. He is always spoiling for a fight. He had come to me full of piss and vinegar telling me in his most argumentative voice that it was hot outside. I asked if he wanted to put on his bathing suit. He lost it, crying and arguing that it "was too hot outside!!!". I walked away to let it runs its course and he stayed in that room ranting and raving and arguing with the world for 30 minutes.

 

It is like that everyday and on some things I can't afford to back down. He will hold my hand in parking lots - he has demonstrated that he cannot safely walk by himself - and I refuse to argue for half an hour about him needing to hold my hand for a 2 minute walk. He must, he will, let it be spoken let it be done.

 

Wendy

 

Brace yourself mama...this was my dd at age 4.

[Halftime Hope]

I agree with you Acorn. Nobody likes to hear about any of that, but I want my kids to question authority from time to time. Even my authority. Because I will never claim to know all the answers, be the perfect parent, etc.

 

 

Wendy, since you an I were discussing upstream, and my use of the word "obedience" rubbed you the wrong way, I wasnt you to know that I agree with you on this, and this is part of the discernment and virtue I mentioned. I have all teens and young adults now, and this is an important part of their lives.

[Pink Fairy]

I could have written a similar post. From the outside, our son just looks like a jerk, a kid who is completely selfish and doesn't care if he makes others miserable. But the reality is that he doesn't want to be this way. He started a new medication last week, and he's--literally--like a completely different version of himself. I'm praying that the medicine keeps working, because we are all enjoying the peaceful, happy atmosphere that seemed out of reach for our family until now.

 

 

I totally agree with you. When you punish, paddle, etc. a strongwilled child for simply asserting their will, you may get outward compliance, but you almost always end up with simmering anger underneath. Like I said. The challenge with over the top strongwilled kids is teaching them how to respectfully assert their independence, and how to have a good attitude and comply even when you think the person in authority is asking you to do something ridiculous. (see, I said ridiculous...not wrong, not harmful!) Teaching a child the skill of when to back down and when to be assertive is hard.

 

My challenges with my dd is this....

 

1. just because something "feels" crucial to living doesn't mean that it is. (perspective....not getting to text your friends during school time is not the end of the world)

 

2. Tone of voice (being able to assert opinions with out acting/sounding like a bombastic behind)

 

3. Consideration for others (you can't use all the hot water every single morning and be surprised when other people are aggravated with you. You can't constantly carp at people for doing things like coughing when they are sick.)

 

4. Respect for others and their plans/energy levels (Mom and dad are not your personal slaves to drive you wherever you would like to do whenever you want to go. Other kids have needs too!)

 

5. Sense of entitlement. (You can't treat parents like garbage and then expect them to joyfully do things for you.)

 

6. She can't admit when she was wrong, even if she is staring evidence in the face that she was wrong. She somehow finds a way to avoid saying I was wrong. "well, I misunderstood you." "That's not what I meant. I meant something else."

 

7. When to dig in and when to give in. Her win at all costs attitude troubles me for her future relationships if she doesn't learn to let some things go. In any relationship you have to be willing to compromise. This girl sees it as "losing." Even if the relationship is damaged, she can't give in.

[fairfarmhand]

I could have written a similar post. From the outside, our son just looks like a jerk, a kid who is completely selfish and doesn't care if he makes others miserable. But the reality is that he doesn't want to be this way. He started a new medication last week, and he's--literally--like a completely different version of himself. I'm praying that the medicine keeps working, because we are all enjoying the peaceful, happy atmosphere that seemed out of reach for our family until now.

Ironically, outside of the family, this child is amazing. I have so many compliments on her maturity and behavior. So I am waiting for her to grow up enough to give that good side to her family a bit.

[Pink Fairy]

Ironically, outside of the family, this child is amazing. I have so many compliments on her maturity and behavior. So I am waiting for her to grow up enough to give that good side to her family a bit.

 

 

 

Oh yeah, he only does this with immediate family--I was referring to how we would see him if we didn't look beyond the surface. But since he's homeschooled, I've wondered how well he could keep up his good outside behavior if he was in ps. (Btw, I'm not saying that your dd needs medication or has the same problems as my son, just that your challenges ring a bell).

[Shellydon]

 

So what do you do when the child won't sit there?

 

 

 

Firmly hold them in place.

[swellmomma]

that's not what I was trying to say at all. This was not the point I was trying to make, and I don't think that your kids are like that at all. I respect your right to raise you kids however you feel is right and I don't believe that your methods are making them little stinkers. I was just trying to give some perspective on what life can be like with some of these kids.

 

My post was not a personal attack on anyone.

 

Your post indicates that this type of behavior is an uncommon, or at least irregular thing with your kids. With kids like mine this kind of behavior is a fairly regular thing. It happens at least several times a month. No matter what I have tried, from explaining things to expecting instant obedience to punishment, the arguments and bad attitude continue. (and I have tried TONS of different methods) I will say that at 15 these things happen less frequently than when she was 11.So I suppose it is a stage that she will have to get through and I will parent as best I can in the interim.

 

I do agree with the pp that these kids take MORE energy from 10-??? (what age? I don't know. We haven't made it there yet!) than they did when they were toddlers. That was one huge factor in our deciding to stop having kids. I just could not give my oldest the attention that she needed when I was pregnant, nursing, etc.

 

Agreeing with the bold. With my kids it is a daily occurance with all 4. Day after day from the minute they wake up until the minute they sleep. It is exhausting. I have never expected immediate unquestioning obedience, I also do not tolerate this crap. I don't care if they question, but I expect a respectful response either way, and some things are non-negotiable. If I say empty the dryer, you empty the danged dryer. If I say time for math, you do your dang math. I do not need to listen to an hour long temper tantrum over every single thing, and in between the tantrums the tattling and bickering with each other because they will not stop fighting when told to etc.

 

My ds14 is the worst, he is good at cadets but is a bear to deal with otherwise. He was my runner for years because he would not stop when told, would bolt down the street or in stores or parking lots etc. DD13 was in daily detention and a suspension at 6 years old in 1st grade as a result of the disobedience and attitude that went with it.

 

With kids like this you just can't win. Either you are wrong to expect obedience out of them, or you are a failure because they don't obey. Some kids are defiant period, regardless of a parent's expectations or how they are raised. They simply think they are special snowflakes and the rules etc do not apply to them. Makes life very difficult for themselves and everyone around them.

 

The bonuses while my kids are a pain in my backside more often than not due to the defiance, my daughter prevented her kidnapping 6 years ago, both kids were able to tell when they were molested (and times they weren't but weren't sure), they have avoided the trappings of the gang from our block etc. One day if they can learn to direct their lack of disobedience they could be activists and fight for change in companies etc, but it has to be mitigated with following laws, rules at work etc. The need for obedience never changes. If you do not do what your boss says, you will never be around long enough to become the boss and make those changes. If you can not follow the law you will not be out in society long enough to fight the injustices you see etc. there has to be balance, and right now my kids have none.

 

I know the youngers are acting the way they do because of the olders. They have been growing up watching the olders doing this all the time, of course they also disobey and quarrel with me when told to do something.

[swellmomma]

Firmly hold them in place.

 

 

Couldn't do it when they were young certainly couldn't do it now. My ds9 is 100 lbs, I could hold my dd13 better than him though she is strong. My ds14 is nearly my height and weighs 150lbs, have fun holding him in place.

[swellmomma]

Ironically, outside of the family, this child is amazing. I have so many compliments on her maturity and behavior. So I am waiting for her to grow up enough to give that good side to her family a bit.

 

I hear this too about dd13. About my boys no. Ds14 is improving they compliment him at work and cadets, any other avenue he is always in trouble. DD13 can usually keep it together until home. BUT when she was in ps she was worse than ds. DS9 has a big mouth and no tact, he is universally unliked, even more so than ds14 it appears. Dd5 is still pretty good, but man if she doesn't want to listen she makes sure people know it in the next town and that held true even when she attended pre-K out of the home, at other homes etc.

[swellmomma]

 

She was talking about a 20 month old. But even at 20 months old I probably would have injured my child if I had to hold him in place. And lets talk about the practicality of that when it's not your only child.

 

Oh I know I was just inviting her to try lol. I had to learn a special hold to use on ds14 back then, and used it for years because he would not sit on time out, he would hurt himself trying to escape (fling himself into walls, down stairs, climb out a window, bolt outdoors etc the minute I went to tend to another child)

[wendyroo]

 

And what do you do if firmly holding them isn't enough to hold them?

 

 

Return them to time out over and over and over. Don't make it fun or a game. Don't chase them, but make darn sure they don't get to do ANYTHING (play, read, eat, gaze out the window, etc) except go to the bathroom until they have served their time. We can't prevent the kids from talking in time out, but no one responds to them at all while they are there.

 

Then once they have served their time their consequence is over and they may resume regularly scheduled activities. I want them to learn that time out is boring, not fun and a place to avoid. I also want them to learn that if they misbehave and earn a consequence it is best to gracefully accept it and get it out of the way quickly.

 

I don't think time out is the end all be all and I don't think it works past a certain age. However, once you eliminate spanking and fear and shame and other questionable discipline techniques I think time out is a useful resource...especially once you have stayed the course often enough and your child has resigned himself to sitting there as a consequence for his behavior.

 

Wendy

[LaughingCat]

Time out does not work for all kids - no matter how much you "hold them there" or "return them to time out over and over". For those kids it's much better to look for other options than to escalate the time outs.

 

And I really wish someone had told me that when DD the older was small instead of the ubiquitous advice that the parent is being too lenient if its not working - it would have saved us both a lot of painful wasted hours.

[PachiSusan]

Time out does not work for all kids - no matter how much you "hold them there" or "return them to time out over and over". For those kids it's much better to look for other options than to escalate the time outs.

 

And I really wish someone had told me that when DD the older was small instead of the ubiquitous advice that the parent is being too lenient if its not working - it would have saved us both a lot of painful wasted hours.

 

 

I agree completely. Time out was largely unsuccessful for us. No matter how many times I put her back in it.

[Dandelion]

Time out does not work for all kids - no matter how much you "hold them there" or "return them to time out over and over". For those kids it's much better to look for other options than to escalate the time outs.

 

And I really wish someone had told me that when DD the older was small instead of the ubiquitous advice that the parent is being too lenient if its not working - it would have saved us both a lot of painful wasted hours.

 

 

Couldn't agree more. I literally spent entire days doing the time out charade with DS - in and out, in and out - before I figured this out. I listened to the "experts" way longer than I should have, and thought that if I just stuck with it, it would eventually work. With kids like DS, it's not only ineffective but detrimental. Thankfully, that was years ago and we've since found effective ways to deal with issues that arise.

[PachiSusan]

 

Couldn't agree more. I literally spent entire days doing the time out charade with DS - in and out, in and out - before I figured this out. I listened to the "experts" way longer than I should have, and thought that if I just stuck with it, it would eventually work. With kids like DS, it's not only ineffective but detrimental. Thankfully, that was years ago and we've since found effective ways to deal with issues that arise.

 

 

I have to share this: Time outs truly didn't work for Melissa. One time she was sent to her room for time out. She got up. Repeat 71 times. Yes, 71 times. You know what my friend who is a time out crazy said? She would have gotten it at 73. <sigh>

[Dandelion]

 

I have to share this: Time outs truly didn't work for Melissa. One time she was sent to her room for time out. She got up. Repeat 71 times. Yes, 71 times. You know what my friend who is a time out crazy said? She would have gotten it at 73. <sigh>

 

 

I can so relate. :grouphug: And this is for your friend: :001_rolleyes:

[PachiSusan]

 

I can so relate. :grouphug: And this is for your friend: :001_rolleyes:

 

 

Thank you! LOL

[msjones]

Exactly. Please help me think of consequences to stop it! I have taken screen time, friend time (occasionally), the only thing I haven't taken away yet is swim team and we are very close.

 

 

Now, I don't have a particularly defiant child. Both of mine are run-of-the-mill in the defiant category. But...

 

...sometimes I am astounded at how long it takes my children to learn something.

 

It might take a long, long time for your child to learn to disagree with you respectfully and appropriately.

 

In the meantime, I suggest consistently sticking with the lost privileges. Just calmly stick with that plan and work at the relationship every chance you get.

 

As often as possible, when your child is behaving well, talk, do something you both enjoy, cook together, listen to her music, do something she likes, etc. Do all those fun parts of parenting so that will be part of your relationship, too. It's so hard when everything begins to feel so negative and difficult.

 

Also, I try to occasionally use good, calm moments to talk about how the difficult times are making us both feel. Just short, calm, loving conversations like, "I was so upset the other day when you wouldn't cooperate. How did that make you feel? What could be each have done differently? I really love you and hope we can both keep working on this together." That kind of thing...

 

Don't despair! Just keep at it. It's a long road, this parenting thing.

[Barb_]

Ah ok. Well I think my reaction was just a reaction in general to some of the things said on this thread and elsewhere, but it wasn't right that I made it seem like you were saying it. I hope that makes sense.

 

I suspect no method would work perfectly with very strong willed kids. I think my kids are actually pretty strong willed, but I feel like the more I push and assert my authority over them the worse it is. So I think I've found what works best for me.

 

I still cringe at the whole "obedience" thing though. If I wanted my kids to obey me unquestioningly I think I'd have to beat their will out of them. And there are parents out there who think that's an acceptable way of gaining obedience. And that's the sort of thing I think of when I read some things regarding "obedience" and the "virtue" of obedience. Virtue is an odd word for me as well. I don't know how else a person gets unquestioning obedience out of a very strong willed kid without doing something very drastic is what I'm wondering. And there is also a difference to me between doing what I ask because you learn to and want to or because you are afraid of me. I don't want my kids to be afraid of me.

 

Sorry, that all got kind of rambly.

 

 

You know? I think when most people say they expect obedience, they don't mean unquestioning, unthinking obedience. A better word would probably be compliance. We would be thrilled to get general compliance from our difficult (I have one myself) kids. As in we say, "Go put your shoes on and you can ride with me to the store," and they do it, and we go have fun. Instead, it turns into a big ordeal. Every. Single. Thing. is a big ordeal some days. You can't imagine living life on tenterhooks, waiting for the next dramatic outburst or meltdown (and having no idea what will cause it or how to deal with it when it happens). Really we would just like to get through the day with a feeling of mutual respect. Compliance (not blind obedience, but a willingness to go along with a request barring reasonable objections) is a way a child can show appreciation and respect. Just like kindness, generosity, and honesty, the willingness to comply with a fair and reasonable authority who has your best interests in mind is a virtue and an advantage to any child or future adult. Those who tilt at windmills are destined for a rough life.

[Pink Fairy]

 

I have to share this: Time outs truly didn't work for Melissa. One time she was sent to her room for time out. She got up. Repeat 71 times. Yes, 71 times. You know what my friend who is a time out crazy said? She would have gotten it at 73. <sigh>

 

 

Of course! You didn't do it right, when you do it right you avoid these sorts of problems. :laugh:

[PachiSusan]

Of course! You didn't do it right, when you do it right you avoid these sorts of problems. :laugh:

 

 

I found that finding her currency worked MUCH better. :p

[PachiSusan]

 

Yes, I agree. Some people here seem to be saying if you don't have obedience you are just doing it wrong. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding.

 

 

I agree. I think it's mostly semantics. I know for me, when I say 'Obedience" I don't mean blind, unquestioning immediate robotic "YES MAAM!!" response. I mean "compliance". Reasonably responding to reasonable requests with out tantrum.

[Joanne]

 

 

Return them to time out over and over and over. Don't make it fun or a game. Don't chase them, but make darn sure they don't get to do ANYTHING (play, read, eat, gaze out the window, etc) except go to the bathroom until they have served their time. We can't prevent the kids from talking in time out, but no one responds to them at all while they are there.

 

Then once they have served their time their consequence is over and they may resume regularly scheduled activities. I want them to learn that time out is boring, not fun and a place to avoid. I also want them to learn that if they misbehave and earn a consequence it is best to gracefully accept it and get it out of the way quickly.

 

I don't think time out is the end all be all and I don't think it works past a certain age. However, once you eliminate spanking and fear and shame and other questionable discipline techniques I think time out is a useful resource...especially once you have stayed the course often enough and your child has resigned himself to sitting there as a consequence for his behavior.

 

Wendy

 

 

 

Eh. I just don't get it. It's simply not worth my time battling a 20 month old this way. I can't imagine tying unrelated consquences to children's behavior - especially for issues that are age expected. You can spank, time out, or simply redirect. And you know what? The child will outgrow the childish behavior on the same time schedule regardless.

 

If I *truly* need my child to be near me, I will say it once and get them. If I want them to clean a room, I don't want them in time out not doing it. ;)

 

I say it once, and if they don't obey, I make it happen and we move on.

 

My kids all come when called now. :driving:

[Joker]

The timeout thing always baffled me. I spent more time trying to keep them in timeout than it would have taken to make them do the actual task. Eventually I figured it out. If I asked them to do something and they did not, then I took them by the hand to carry out whatever task they were asked to do. Soon, they start doing it on their own because they realize they will have to anyway. Now I have one teenager and one tween and they're enjoyable, responsible girls. Of course we have our moments, but I don't find myself asking over and over for the same thing.

[Lily_Grace]

I don't like time out as a punishment. I like it as a teaching tool. A kid overwhelmed is a kid who needs to take a break, and learn how to recognise those signs and voluntarily go for the break. Same with an adult. Time outs/time ins are great life skills but sucky punishments.

[fairfarmhand]

I LOVE THIS thread... or at least this last page. I think we figured out that most of us are on the same page parenting. Some of our techniques may vary a bit, but then so do our families! Studying your kids to see what works best with them is much better than applying Dr. so and so's be all end all one size fits all philosophy.

 

I've transitioned my parenting as I've had more kids. I am a more patient understanding mom of my youngers than I was with my olders. I am much more aware of age-appropriate developments. I wish I'd known with my first what I've applied with my youngers. I think it would have saved a ton of conflict. By the way, for you mom's struggling with defiant kids, let me share something. My dd about whom I have vented numerous times on this board wrote this essay this week in response to a question in her Bible lesson. It's showing me, that even though she can be a real pain, underneath it all she's growing into a decent young lady. Eventually, I think she will emerge as a reasonably normal, healthy adult.

 

"There are many steps that I can take to be a better Christian influence in various parts of my life.

In my home, I should try to keep my attitude positive. It's hard for my family to stay optimistic and friendly when I am in a bad mood and show it through the things I do. I should make a larger effort to not snap at my sibling when they annoy me or take things offensively when I could just laugh them off.

In the presence of my extended family, I should make an effort to be patient with my cousins. It is hard, sometimes, when they are whiny, bossy, and demanding. In my mind, I tell myself, "My parents would never let any of us get away with being that bratty." In those times, I should remind myself that yelling at my cousins does not make anything better. The only thing I can do is try to set a good example that I hope they will one day follow.

In my church youth group, I should try to be more involved and attentive to the devotion part of the service. I need to remember that this is the important part, and we do not come to church just to see J. try to set a record for the most Poptarts broken in one ninja-cut. I need to remind myself that these lessons are important, and I will end up dealing with these issues for the rest of my life.

During school, I should try harder in my studies. I should make an effort to do well in a specific subject, even if it is not fun and I would rather just get an average grade. I should also attack my schoolwork head on, without dragging because I 'just don't want to do it.'

In my extra-curricular activities, I should try to act like a Christian, even when I am alone with my friends. When alone with other teenagers, sometimes teens open up and say things that they would never say in front of an adult. In those times, it is especially important for me to not go 'along with it,' or worse, partake in it, whether it is a particular act or a conversation.

In my community, I should be a good neighbor. I do not really know many of my neighbors well, so it is important that I be polite, courteous, and friendly whenever I see them. I should be willing to help out anyone that needs help, and do it with a cheerful, generous attitude."

[goldberry]

Interesting thread...I am a believer in the concept of obedience, but am definitely not an authoritarian parent.

 

A majority of the time, I respect DD with an explanation. Sometimes I have had to say, "I don't have time to explain the reasoning right now, but I need you to do this now." At a certain point, though, we are done with the conversation. Then the obedience comes in. If she continues to argue or complain or question the explanation, she gets "the look" and a reminder that "the conversation is over and you need to do blah-blah".

 

Regarding the virtue of obedience, we have taught DD that obedience is a step based on trust. Mom and Dad love you, and you trust that. So obedience comes from trust that you know we love you and would not direct you to do something harmful to you. If you are a Christian, that is the basis of obedience to God. It is not (or should not be) "blind obedience", but a trust that God loves you and knows what is best for you - since He created you!

 

If that trust was violated in any way (which would never happen from God, but could happen from a human) then obviously obedience would not be required or appropriate. In other words, if someone who wants obedience from you is acting in a way that would bring you harm, they do not deserve your obedience.

 

Also I think in that context it should be fairly obvious to a kid that parents who love you are more concerned with your safety than obedience if the two are in conflict.

[fairfarmhand]

Interesting thread...I am a believer in the concept of obedience, but am definitely not an authoritarian parent.

 

A majority of the time, I respect DD with an explanation. Sometimes I have had to say, "I don't have time to explain the reasoning right now, but I need you to do this now." At a certain point, though, we are done with the conversation. Then the obedience comes in. If she continues to argue or complain or question the explanation, she gets "the look" and a reminder that "the conversation is over and you need to do blah-blah".

 

Regarding the virtue of obedience, we have taught DD that obedience is a step based on trust. Mom and Dad love you, and you trust that. So obedience comes from trust that you know we love you and would not direct you to do something harmful to you. If you are a Christian, that is the basis of obedience to God. It is not (or should not be) "blind obedience", but a trust that God loves you and knows what is best for you - since He created you!

 

If that trust was violated in any way (which would never happen from God, but could happen from a human) then obviously obedience would not be required or appropriate. In other words, if someone who wants obedience from you is acting in a way that would bring you harm, they do not deserve your obedience.

ABSOLUTELY!