S/O how do you deal with defiance from your children? (esp. moms of older kids!)

[Donna]

My boys went through particularly defiant times right around 12-13yo. I guess going through puberty, entering public school, and trying to figure out their place in the world contributed. By the 2nd, I realized "this too will pass."

 

Outright defiance, like the OP described, does not result in a fight but simply a loss of priveleges (losing their cell phone or computer/game time works best). I don't argue with my kids. I explain why I expect certain things and when possible give them choices (either of which is acceptable to me). There are some things that are simply non-negotiable like doing schoolwork, dating rules, car use for my new driver, etc... Other things are not all that worth fighting over to me so choices are given like "which housecleaning chore would you like to do."

 

I don't take the things they do or say personally. I remain calm and don't raise my voice. I think they know, the quieter I get, the angrier I am. I also remain firm in my choices...because they will see right through wishy washy or ultimatums if you don't intend to keep them. My kids are pretty good kids overall. Sure, they test me and sometimes do things I wish they hadn't but none has ever called me a name or been physical with me.

 

I think starting from when they are young is very important as one poster said. I think building a good, loving relationship when you are not angry at them helps. We do plenty of cuddling and hugs. We end every day with them coming into my room to get a hug and tell me goodnight. I tell them I love them and do nice little things for them to let them know I love them. I spend time with them, talk to them about the things going on in their lives, and I really listen to how they feel about certain things. They know I respect them and like them as people.

[celticmom]

One thing that I have not seen mentioned yet is to make sure there is not a physiological cause such as an intolerance causing defiant behavior. My dd was quite defiant for years, then she started throwing up and it continued longer than it would for a stomach virus. I took her to see an allergist and he suggested removing wheat and dairy from her diet. Within less than 12 hours I noticed a dramatic improvement in her attitude and behavior( and not more vomiting either). When we added each food back into her diet separately wheat turned out to be the culprit so she is now wheat-free.

 

Obviously, that will not be the issue for all strong-willed children but I am very thankful that I now know what dd's underlying issue was. Especially since the wheat intolerance was only getting worse and I don't want her to have to live a full-blown anaphylactic allergy.

[Lily_Grace]

About obedience, in my experience, obedience isn't a dirty word. It means having the attitude of doing what someone asks you to do without automatically "bowing up" when asked to do something, even if you don't understand or don't agree. It is a very necessary skill in the business world and in real life. This must be accompanied by discernment and virtue, because any person will need to understand when they should not obey.

 

Here's an example: my husband has an area of responsibility within a hobby organization--people who are all there of their own choice. In addition to his normal responsibilities, he has been tasked with updating and revamping the group's database, redesigning the website, converting to an email newsletter, and his small team is adding all kinds of functionality to the group's database. He has been faced with mindless opposition to this from the get go. Everything from elderly people who don't want an email newletter (no problem, just say so, we'll send you a paper copy) to people who refuse to get their sub-group's competition scores to the newsletter person on time (so sorry, your results won't be in print this month) to people who will not update their email address (that's right, your newletter has been bouncing for three months, and now you complain) to fellow board members who won't change information in their New Member Orientation powerpoint because they didn't "like" or "understand" what he sent them, even after three emails.

 

This past Saturday, dh had to tell the Orientation presenter that when he sends information for the presentation, the OD needs to just do what dh said. He is welcome to call or email, but in the meantime, just do what he was asked to do. It was difficult for him to have to call the guy on his behavior.

 

All these people, cranky adults for the most part, are tearing each other apart and ruining their chances of having good people step up to the plate and take responsibility for pulling together and creating really good opportunities for themselves, because they're all so stubbornly independent and contentious, and they don't remember how to just obey, for cryin' outloud. Obey the group's rules (they will save your life), obey the instructions the officers give you (it will save your life and keep you from serious harm), obey when you are asked to do something reasonable even if you don't get it. (You don't always have to understand, for goodness sake. Assume the other guy has thought things through.)

 

Gaahh! Obedience is becoming a lost art.

 

 

I have to agree. I *don't* want my children to obey to simply obey, but obedience based on trust is a a difficult balance to manage. There are some things in our house that are non-negotiable. Every request is met with 4 questions to instill internal values:

-is it safe?

-is it legal?

-is it morally right?

-is it respectful?

 

The oldest can ask himself before coming to me, and know an answer in his heart. However, there are times where my requests may not seem to make much sense and I need him to trust me, and obey without question. He needs to know that I have his best interests at heart and wouldn't ask him to do something that fell outside those four questions. The same will apply on the job. If he joins the military and is given a questionable order, he has those questions still guiding him, and telling him NOT to obey. But if he's needing to do something for the benefit of all, he needs to trust those above him - even if he doesn't like it.

[TammyS]

Obedience? Or cooperation?

 

Sounds like a lot of people who need attention, but want to get it the wrong way.

 

eta: Defiance...I withdraw the benevolent part of my benevolent dictatorship. Drive my car? Pick you up from a friend's? Basically all privileges stop for the next month, and he is accompanied by an adult everywhere he goes.

 

 

There is a very old saying that "obedience is the virtue that makes all other virtues possible".

 

In more practical terms, the child that is taught to obey, even when they don't like/agree/understand, is also being taught to put their will aside to some degree in deference to the will of the legitimate authority who cares about them and knows better than they do. This putting aside of their will is the practice that will later allow them to cooperate. Cooperation is, largely, the willingness to put aside one's will to some degree in service of something or someone else (getting a project done, helping someone out, etc).

[fairfarmhand]

I have a defiant one and I certainly don't have all the answers but when my dd was that age we had to WRITE DOWN choices and consequences.

 

I had to dump all the choices on her. We'd discuss it when we were both perfectly calm and quiet. I let her know that it was tough being a kid with such strong feelings, but she could not let her feelings ruin her day and everyone else's. I'd also try to get her to empathize with other people, "Remember when x was having such a bad day and was so unpleasant to be around? Didn't that make your day pretty rotten too? When one person has a lousy attitude it rubs off on everyone else so we have to learn to be kind and polite, even when we don't feel like it. " We talked about choosing to act out in anger vs. appropriately handling anger. I gave suggestions for anger management...running laps, punching pillows, even deep breathing, crying, venting in a journal....etc.

 

Then I made a list. If you choose to x then you get y. Extra chores are much better than taking social times, although I have been known to take that away when I am at my wits end. We wrote it down so that my dd had a visual reminder and a concrete representation. And there was no question about what was discussed.

 

I also would point out tone of voice, disrespectful comments, etc,... on tv and in public when I saw them...not to criticize, but to point out that TONE OF VOICE matters.

 

One thing that helped with the door slamming (she did lose her door for about a month one time) and was REALLY effeective was that my dh (who sometimes has been known to slam a door in anger) made a deal with her, If she slammed a door in anger, she'd owe him 10 bucks. If he slammed a door in anger, he'd owe her 10 bucks. Money talks with this kid. Dh ponied up once. Dd ponied up twice. That's been it over the past 2 years.

 

Anyway, just some thoughts. Hope that helps a little.

[I.Dup.]

I have a defiant one and I certainly don't have all the answers but when my dd was that age we had to WRITE DOWN choices and consequences.

 

We talk to her a LOT about choices. It has gotten to the point where she is choosing to have an attitude about ANYthing that doesn't go her way. ANYthing at all. Rolling eyes, talking back, arguing. Can you give me examples of some consequences for that?

[TammyS]

 

We talk to her a LOT about choices. It has gotten to the point where she is choosing to have an attitude about ANYthing that doesn't go her way. ANYthing at all. Rolling eyes, talking back, arguing. Can you give me examples of some consequences for that?

 

The eye-rolling and general attitude I would mostly ignore. It BAIT. She is trying to draw you into an argument. If you do it, she wins, no matter what happens.

 

The talking back/arguing....mostly, I just would. not. be. there. If you know you are going to tell her something she doesn't want to hear...go to her, tell her, and walk away - literally. Put doors and walls between you and her. Not permanently, of course, but there is NO POINT in talking to someone who isn't rational. You will just make both of you more upset. When she's calm, later, she can talk to you, if she still feels the need, but probably she will be over it. If not, talk to her. If it gets hot, tell her it's time to table it again until people are calm later - and walk away, do not get drawn into an arguement about what constitutes calm. Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

The arguing will stop - when you stop arguing with her.

 

But general attitude I mostly ignore. I'm a pretty strict parent, but I think it's just too controlling to try to require a kid to be happy about what they don't like. If they are spewing misery, they have to go be alone somewhere until they are ready to act human again.

[I.Dup.]

The eye-rolling and general attitude I would mostly ignore. It BAIT. She is trying to draw you into an argument. If you do it, she wins, no matter what happens.

 

The talking back/arguing....mostly, I just would. not. be. there. If you know you are going to tell her something she doesn't want to hear...go to her, tell her, and walk away - literally. Put doors and walls between you and her. Not permanently, of course, but there is NO POINT in talking to someone who isn't rational. You will just make both of you more upset. When she's calm, later, she can talk to you, if she still feels the need, but probably she will be over it. If not, talk to her. If it gets hot, tell her it's time to table it again until people are calm later - and walk away, do not get drawn into an arguement about what constitutes calm. Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

The arguing will stop - when you stop arguing with her.

 

But general attitude I mostly ignore. I'm a pretty strict parent, but I think it's just too controlling to try to require a kid to be happy about what they don't like. If they are spewing misery, they have to go be alone somewhere until they are ready to act human again.

 

 

Yes, that is what I've been doing for awhile now, just disengaging. What about when they stand there debating what you just told them to do?

[TammyS]

 

What about when they stand there debating what you just told them to do?

 

 

Don't be there.

 

Literally.

 

Give the order and walk away.

 

It gives them a chance to decide whether or not they want to risk it.

 

It gives you a chance to think up a rational consequence if they don't do it. And at this age, it doesn't have to be immediate.

 

"Mom, can I go to Becky's?" "No. You didn't clean the bathroom two days ago when I told you to." AND WALK AWAY.

[wapiti]

The difficutly and defiance, combined with hard punishment not working well, reminds me of the book I am reading: Strong Willed Child or Dreamer?

 

http://www.amazon.co...hild or dreamer

 

It might be worth a perusal for you. I am finding it very insightful (about my own personality and childhood, as well as one of my kids). Punishment causes rage. Restitution makes a huge difference. I'm starting to implement it with my kids (since restitution is good for everyone, not just one type of kid), and I can see how the approaches in the book would have worked very well with me as a child (and would still work well with me!).

 

HTH

 

 

Thanks to Alte Veste Academy, I bought this book and I'm about 3/4 done with it. I really, really appreciate that it distinguishes between different kinds of kids (not that my kids are 100% "dreamers," but the general idea fits), particularly with regard to behavior that would be interpreted as defiance that is actually something else entirely. I already need to re-read parts of the book that I skimmed. I highly recommend it!!!! I've read a lot of books (Strong-Willed Child, sensory books, the one about Nurture-something, the Explosive Child, etc.) and this is the ONLY one that I feel really fits my kids.

[Halftime Hope]

So what are you saying? Just do what "I" want already?

 

I don't want my kids to be blindly obedient.

 

No, go back and re-read my post. You will see that that's not what I said.

 

1) I qualified--obedience combined with discernment and virtue--in the first part.

 

2) I qualified in the story by saying that there had been three emails between dh and the guy, with dh explaining patiently, but the guy didn't do what dh asked, and dh had to diplomatically correct the incorrect information publicly for all the new members (50 people), and then after the orientation he called the guy on not putting the correct information in the presentation the way dh had specified it.

 

One time when my kid was a toddler, he was running straight for a low cactus bush on a high mesa. Dh yelled "stop," and toddler did. If he hadn't obeyed immediately, he would have gone to the ER.

 

My "dh story" was not one of them, but sometimes adults have similar situations, you obey without knowing why or having a full picture. It is based on trust or on authority, on a reasonable assumption that the person is worth your obedience. That's where the discernment and virtue comes in.

[Halftime Hope]

 

There is a very old saying that "obedience is the virtue that makes all other virtues possible".

 

In more practical terms, the child that is taught to obey, even when they don't like/agree/understand, is also being taught to put their will aside to some degree in deference to the will of the legitimate authority who cares about them and knows better than they do. This putting aside of their will is the practice that will later allow them to cooperate. Cooperation is, largely, the willingness to put aside one's will to some degree in service of something or someone else (getting a project done, helping someone out, etc).

 

Very nicely put. Thank you.

[fairfarmhand]

 

Yes, that is what I've been doing for awhile now, just disengaging. What about when they stand there debating what you just told them to do?

 

pretend you didn't hear. Then when you turn around, startled and they are still blabbing you say. "Oh, I thought you were going to go do x." Most of the time I ignore the eye rolling and huge dramatic sighs. Getting the last word...yup. I ignore that too. I am choosing my battles, because if I engage, we'd spend the whole day in misery. Doing a job halfway or slamming things around or throwing them, I do address that.

 

Arguing....yes, it takes two to argue. I just begin saying things like, "dear, I told you to do x. Are you going to stand there and argue about it, or are you going to do what I said? If you choose to continue arguing rather than obey, then you are choosing the consequence for disobedience." Don't engage the objections, just get to the point. Are you going to do what I said or not?

 

Also, beginning at age 11-12, I started giving longer time periods for compliance. "Sweetie, I need your room cleaned some time today. We will not be leaving for x until your room is clean. I will give you a reminder at x o'clock, but I know you are old enough to budget your time yourself. " This is said sweetly with a smile, expressing my confidence that she will complete what I asked her to do. My independent one does so much better if she feels that she has SOME control over what will happen, even if its just choosing to take a shower BEFORE she cleans her room.

 

My dd also does better with lists of items to complete for the day, and I check in later to see what she's gotten done. She prefers to be "in charge" of her time, even if it is completing a list of tasks that mom has created.

[I.Dup.]

 

I guess I'm getting hung up on your terminology. I just don't talk like that is what it comes down to. I don't think we want radically different things, but we go about them differently and talk about them differently.

 

Sorry, but I associate the word obedience with dogs, whips, and tricks. I don't like it. Maybe that's not what you mean, but I can't use the word in a sentence involving my kids.

 

I also think it could be a difference in world views. In Catholicism for example, obedience is one of the most highly praised virtues. Priests, nuns, and monks are all required to take a vow of obedience. There is no beating around the bush. So for Catholic families, to NOT teach our children obedience would be a moral failure on our part.

[wendyroo]

When I think of obedience (or lack thereof) I think of my niece. We were on a hike with extended family. DH, FIL and I were ahead of the group with my two small children. FIL took a moment to pull my preschooler aside and point out some poison ivy nearby. It was behind a chain with an attached sign, "Path Ends. Do Not Cross." As we stood on the nearby viewing area watching a waterfall, my niece, L (8 years old), came running down the path. She was running headlong for the chain and FIL, DH and I all called out urgently, "L, stop!" "L, no!" She did not even break her stride. Ignoring us and the sign she jumped over the chain and right into the patch of poison ivy...in flip flops and shorts.

 

That was two years ago, and L (and her two older siblings) still have no sense of obedience. They don't listen to anyone including their parents or teachers. They assume posted rules do not apply to them.

 

That incident, and the many others I have witnessed are always in my mind when I think about training my children to obey. I view it as vital. I am currently practicing with my 18 months old so he learns to stop when I say stop and come when I say come. Those are non-negotiable orders and he will obey. That doesn't mean I order my kids around all the time, I try to phrase most things as requests or matter of fact statements that if you do X then Y will happen. However, they know that when I do issue an order they must obey or I will help them obey and give them a consequence that helps them remember the importance of doing as they are told.

 

Wendy

[I.Dup.]

When I think of obedience (or lack thereof) I think of my niece. We were on a hike with extended family. DH, FIL and I were ahead of the group with my two small children. FIL took a moment to pull my preschooler aside and point out some poison ivy nearby. It was behind a chain with an attached sign, "Path Ends. Do Not Cross." As we stood on the nearby viewing area watching a waterfall, my niece, L (8 years old), came running down the path. She was running headlong for the chain and FIL, DH and I all called out urgently, "L, stop!" "L, no!" She did not even break her stride. Ignoring us and the sign she jumped over the chain and right into the patch of poison ivy...in flip flops and shorts.

 

That was two years ago, and L (and her two older siblings) still have no sense of obedience. They don't listen to anyone including their parents or teachers. They assume posted rules do not apply to them.

 

That incident, and the many others I have witnessed are always in my mind when I think about training my children to obey. I view it as vital. I am currently practicing with my 18 months old so he learns to stop when I say stop and come when I say come. Those are non-negotiable orders and he will obey. That doesn't mean I order my kids around all the time, I try to phrase most things as requests or matter of fact statements that if you do X then Y will happen. However, they know that when I do issue an order they must obey or I will help them obey and give them a consequence that helps them remember the importance of doing as they are told.

 

Wendy

 

 

I've heard a story (don't remember where) of a child swimming in a swimming pool. The dad was watching from outside the pool and noticed a large snake swimming toward his daughter. He calmly said "X, swim to me now and get out of the pool." She did what her father said without question. I can almost guarantee my children would have said "NO, WHYYYYY, I WANT TO SWIM!!!!!!!!!"

[wapiti]

A lot of brain skills are involved in following oral commands, such as auditory processing and attention. Just sayin..

[TammyS]

 

I grew up in a Catholic family and never heard the term uttered by anyone in my family.

 

Then they missed out on a serious part of their obligations.

 

http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=5245

[PRTGSw2K]

 

 

I've heard a story (don't remember where) of a child swimming in a swimming pool. The dad was watching from outside the pool and noticed a large snake swimming toward his daughter. He calmly said "X, swim to me now and get out of the pool." She did what her father said without question. I can almost guarantee my children would have said "NO, WHYYYYY, I WANT TO SWIM!!!!!!!!!"

 

My oldest would have done the same as yours. He is stubborn to a fault and would rather suffer the consequence than admit he is wrong or just do as I asked or told him to do.

[Halftime Hope]

 

Well to be fair my parents both had a mental illness. So I pretty much raised them and myself.

 

I guess I probably shouldn't even talk about any of this.

 

No, Wendy, I appreciate your discussing this with me. I have no doubt that we would find a lot in common, but you are right, we may use words somewhat differently. And it's OK for families to have different styles. You are creating a new one for yourself, and it would be unfair and incorrect to pigeonhole you and say that this or that will or won't work for you. Why would I want to go there? : )

 

Best wishes for you and yours.

[I.Dup.]

I've got another "obedience" story. This time with one of our own children (one of the 2 mentioned earlier :glare: )

 

Dh and my parents took the kids swimming at their hotel pool. Between the 3 adults, they had to supervise 4 children age 7 and under. My 3 year old at the time decided he didn't want to get out so after Daddy helped him get out he snuck around and jumped back in the deep end. He didn't know how to swim. Luckily my 5yo saw him and my dh heard him quietly saying "E is in the water"...he had to say it a few times, by the time my dh saw him only his hand was sticking up. We have used that story a few times to reiterate the importance that they do what they are told.

[TammyS]

Ok, I don't know why, but the dad and pool example kind of bugged me. How does a parent get a child to obey without thought or question? I shudder to think how exactly they do that. In the pool situation, I would have just said to my kid, "please come out of the pool, you are in danger, don't freak out, I'll explain it when you get out." Something like that. And I know they would have come out of the pool. And it would not have taken my much longer to say that verses what he said. I would have felt compelled to explain it without freaking them out to the point they can't move. I always explain things to my kids if possible. I feel like that's the right thing to do. I don't know the exact details of the girl in the pool, but what if she had just gotten in the pool and her dad said to get out now. I would have been baffled as a kid (or an adult for that matter). I would want to know why. That would be completely different than if the kid had been in the pool for awhile. I guess I don't understand this sort of dynamic where a parent says something and the kid instantly does it without thought or question. I don't want my kids to do that pretty much ever.

 

Obedience doesn't mean they don't think or question, but that they are taught to obey first, question after. They are instilled with the confidence that while they don't understand, they know that their parents are the smart, capable people with their best interests at heart - so obey FIRST question AFTER. That's how.

[TammyS]

But parents aren't always the smart capable people with their best interests at heart. I do my best, but I'm not perfect. My kids trust me, but I don't want them to believe I'm above making a mistake.

 

I have two kids. Wherever they are at developmentally they are pretty much an experiment to me. I don't have tons of experience raising children.

 

Why is it wrong to tell a kid to come out of the pool because we need to leave now, or I want to leave now, or I think you have been in there long enough, or there is a snake in the pool, or you might not want to be in a pool with a snake so come out now? I mean why just say jump and the kid jumps? I don't understand this.

 

Because you don't always immediately have time to explain to them.

 

Because they won't always understand your explanation.

 

Because they will understand your explanation, but they won't like it, and it' just T's up an arguement.

 

Because it can save their life.

 

Because people who don't learn obedience have a hard time in life.

 

Because a child who doesn't learn to obey the legitimate authority for the sake of obedience, is always going to want to have decisions justified to them....and that can end VERY badly when they don't agree.

 

Because obedience is a virtue, a major one, that will serve them well their whole life through, regardless of where or who they end up.

[Lily_Grace]

Sorry, I guess I just don't agree with most of what you said. Giving an explanation is almost always possible.

 

I know how to follow the rules. Nobody has any issues with me listening to them. But I have no problem questioning them if I don't understand why they are asking me to do something or if I don't agree with what they want me to do. I don't think that is a bad quality.

 

And I have discovered over the years that always following the rules does not always lead to the best outcome.

 

 

With some children, giving an explanation in the moment is an invitation to debate on whether that explanation is valid or not. And for some, the explanation triggers a different reaction. I know that my oldest, if told there was a danger or snake, would freeze and panic. My nephew, otoh, would look for the snake to try and kill it himself.

[I.Dup.]

Why is it wrong to tell a kid to come out of the pool because we need to leave now, or I want to leave now, or I think you have been in there long enough,

 

The problem with this is that it's just an invitation to argue with these kids. Seriously I cannot say a single one of these things without expecting an argument from my kid. How is constantly arguing healthier than just doing what an authority figure tells you? How will that serve them someday in a job situation, or in the military (for example)?

[fairfarmhand]

 

My kids don't constantly argue with me though. So maybe that is why I'm not seeing the problem.

 

I will say there are some areas I have a tough time with my kids, especially my 11 year old. He has always been a very picky eater. I don't know what the problem is exactly, but nothing I tried has really worked. I can't get him to eat certain foods. I've had all sorts of people suggest all sorts of things to me and either those things have not worked or there are things I'm not going to do. So I suppose you could say he isn't listening to me or obeying me or whatever words one wants to call it. I'm not going to starve him and I'm not going to beat him. And I'm not going to force feed him until he pukes. So what does that leave me? It leaves me nothing because I have tried everything else. So I guess I just let it go and get him foods he is willing to eat, but make him cook it/prepare it himself because I'm not making more than one meal.

 

He generally listens to me. But not on this one.

 

some kids are just SOOOOO argumentative.

 

and wrt the food issue, I don't think that's an obedience thing. and I do teach my kids to obey. :)

[LaughingCat]

IMO the choice is not between immediate obedience or constant arguing. Those are the extremes. I personally have never "obeyed first and questioned later" in any job I have had as an adult- "do what's requested most times and question sometimes" has worked for me just as well. What's frustrating in kids is they don't yet "get" the adult logic of when to just do and when to question rather than that they don't obey unquestioningly when they should.

 

Also IMO the "hobby group" situation is probably due to a combination of fear of change and lack of a clear chain of command, not lack of obedience. Especially when everyone is a volunteer, the "chain of command" becomes much murkier, plus it's amazing how hard it can be to get people to change the way they do things, even when the "new" way is clearly much better.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I've got another "obedience" story. This time with one of our own children (one of the 2 mentioned earlier :glare: )

 

Dh and my parents took the kids swimming at their hotel pool. Between the 3 adults, they had to supervise 4 children age 7 and under. My 3 year old at the time decided he didn't want to get out so after Daddy helped him get out he snuck around and jumped back in the deep end. He didn't know how to swim. Luckily my 5yo saw him and my dh heard him quietly saying "E is in the water"...he had to say it a few times, by the time my dh saw him only his hand was sticking up. We have used that story a few times to reiterate the importance that they do what they are told.

 

See, now, I can just as easily see this story going the other direction. I actually thought it was at first! Say 5yo sees 3yo in pool and tries to tell but dad says, "Hold on a minute. I am ...." Should 5yo blindly, obediently "hold on" while DH sets up a deck chair, chats with someone else, applies sunblock? Heavens no! I would want my kids to recognize that they have more important knowledge in that moment, that they should employ some self-authority of common sense and recognition of priorities.

[DianeW88]

The problem with this is that it's just an invitation to argue with these kids. Seriously I cannot say a single one of these things without expecting an argument from my kid. How is constantly arguing healthier than just doing what an authority figure tells you? How will that serve them someday in a job situation, or in the military (for example)?

It's not. And in the situations you mentioned (job or military), it will get them fired or punished (for insubordination). Have you punished your children for arguing with you? Swiftly, consistently, and without a doubt as to why they're being punished? I absolutely will not allow arguing or disrespect from my children with either me or my dh. And neither does he. A quick...."Excuse me, just who do think you're talking to?" will get their attention and make them reconsider anything they might have been thinking about saying. Constant arguing or challenging every. single. thing. you're told to do does not serve someone well in life. Sometimes you simply have to do what you are told. You have to be obedient. Whether you like it or not. That's just life.

[I.Dup.]

some kids are just SOOOOO argumentative.

 

and wrt the food issue, I don't think that's an obedience thing. and I do teach my kids to obey. :)

 

Yep.

 

 

Well, that's a relief. I wasn't sure where I had gone wrong.

 

I don't do power struggles with food. If they don't want to eat, that's fine. And most of the time, I cater to what they like. :) As helpless as you feel on the food issue, imagine feeling like that on just about every issue.

 

See, now, I can just as easily see this story going the other direction. I actually thought it was at first! Say 5yo sees 3yo in pool and tries to tell but dad says, "Hold on a minute. I am ...." Should 5yo blindly, obediently "hold on" while DH sets up a deck chair, chats with someone else, applies sunblock? Heavens no! I would want my kids to recognize that they have more important knowledge in that moment, that they should employ some self-authority of common sense and recognition of priorities.

 

My 5yo (now 8yo) is very soft spoken. ;) I'm not sure how relating someone is drowning has anything to do with obedience. He should have spoken louder if anything, and within seconds ONE of the adults was bound to notice (they weren't putting on sunscreen and chatting, they were getting the others dressed), but it only takes seconds to drown.

[I.Dup.]

It's not. And in the situations you mentioned (job or military), it will get them fired or punished (for insubordination). Have you punished your children for arguing with you? Swiftly, consistently, and without a doubt as to why they're being punished? I absolutely will not allow arguing or disrespect from my children with either me or my dh. And neither does he. A quick...."Excuse me, just who do think you're talking to?" will get their attention and make them reconsider anything they might have been thinking about saying. Constant arguing or challenging every. single. thing. you're told to do does not serve someone well in life. Sometimes you simply have to do what you are told. You have to be obedient. Whether you like it or not. That's just life.

 

 

Exactly. Please help me think of consequences to stop it! I have taken screen time, friend time (occasionally), the only thing I haven't taken away yet is swim team and we are very close.

[Alte Veste Academy]

My 5yo (now 8yo) is very soft spoken. ;) I'm not sure how relating someone is drowning has anything to do with obedience. He should have spoken louder if anything, and within seconds ONE of the adults was bound to notice (they weren't putting on sunscreen and chatting, they were getting the others dressed), but it only takes seconds to drown.

 

 

???

 

I meant what if he had tried to tell and dad had told him to hang on a moment. To be quiet. Should he have stayed quiet, knowing his sibling was in terrible danger? I am not saying they WERE doing other things. I am saying WHAT IF they were and WHAT IF your 5yo was told to be quiet. Should he be obedient or speak up about the danger?

 

And that one of the adults was "bound to notice" sounds like a hope and a prayer. Children drown all the time, with unaware people standing all around.

[I.Dup.]

???

 

I meant what if he had tried to tell and dad had told him to hang on a moment. To be quiet. Should he have stayed quiet, knowing his sibling was in terrible danger? I am not saying they WERE doing other things. I am saying WHAT IF they were and WHAT IF your 5yo was told to be quiet. Should he be obedient or speak up about the danger?

 

And that one of the adults was "bound to notice" sounds like a hope and a prayer. Children drown all the time, with unaware people standing all around.

 

 

Ahh, okay. Safety trumps obedience. These situations don't come up often but they do come up. My 5yo's mistake in this situation was not shouting. If he spoke a little louder, they would have been able to hear what he was saying and of course they wouldn't have said "hold on a second" and my dh didn't say that, he just didn't hear him the first couple of times.

 

Are you meaning that your children shouldn't be taught to obey because they might need to save someone's life? I'm not sure what you mean?

[Alte Veste Academy]

Ahh, okay. Safety trumps obedience. These situations don't come up often but they do come up. My 5yo's mistake in this situation was not shouting. If he spoke a little louder, they would have been able to hear what he was saying and of course they wouldn't have said "hold on a second" and my dh didn't say that, he just didn't hear him the first couple of times.

 

Are you meaning that your children shouldn't be taught to obey because they might need to save someone's life? I'm not sure what you mean?

 

 

I mean that blind obedience is not something I teach my children because I can just as easily see the adverse effect of that.

[I.Dup.]

I mean that blind obedience is not something I teach my children because I can just as easily see the adverse effect of that.

 

 

Well you are certainly free to raise your children the way you see fit. I don't think "blind obedience" is a good description, just simple obedience. They are also taught to use common sense (shouting if someone is in danger, obviously we have since gone over that), etc. And dh and I are not dictators, they know that we try hard to be fair. :) If they have something to say, we welcome it at proper and respectful times what we have a really hard time with (and figuring out how to curb with these 2) is the constant arguing, and I'm not sure how or when that is ever appropriate. :confused1: Maybe some of you don't have children that constantly argue with everything? If so, count yourself blessed in this way!

[I.Dup.]

Also, your scenario of a mousy child who cowers and obeys no matter what they are told isn't even in our universe here, I am asking about outright defiant children. Having a child who cowers to everything and doesn't ever speak up is another issue entirely, and that sort of child isn't very common from what I hear, lol. I do have a soft spoken child (the 5yo mentioned) and he is on a different plane from what I am addressing here, we handle him completely differently.

[Acorn]

 

I also think it could be a difference in world views. In Catholicism for example, obedience is one of the most highly praised virtues. Priests, nuns, and monks are all required to take a vow of obedience. There is no beating around the bush. So for Catholic families, to NOT teach our children obedience would be a moral failure on our part.

 

 

How many children would have been saved from abuse, if they were taught that it is okay to question being "obedient" to a priest? I will teach my children to be good decision makers. There are always cases in religion, military, or police forces etc. where obedience is not a virtue.

[Dandelion]

IMO the choice is not between immediate obedience or constant arguing. Those are the extremes. I personally have never "obeyed first and questioned later" in any job I have had as an adult- "do what's requested most times and question sometimes" has worked for me just as well. What's frustrating in kids is they don't yet "get" the adult logic of when to just do and when to question rather than that they don't obey unquestioningly when they should.

 

 

Great point. Kids pick up the "when to just do and when to question" balance as they mature. Expecting immediate, unquestioning obedience does not help them achieve that balance IMO.

 

Prior to homeschooling, I spent 20 years in the corporate world. The last 10 years of my career, I worked for Intel Corporation (as in "Intel Inside" - the high tech company). Intel has a very distinct company culture. A big part of that culture is a concept called "constructive confrontation". Employees are encouraged to constructively confront each other on issues - including confronting their managers. Questioning, arguing, and debate are actively promoted. Why? Because that's how you get innovation, new ideas, improvements to existing products, etc. If everyone just blindly agrees with those in charge, a company becomes stagnant and it fails. People either loved this culture, or they struggled in it (I loved it). I have a strong hunch that those who struggled with it the most were people who had been taught to always obey, and never question, authority.

 

I teach my kids the importance of respect and cooperation. But I don't think respect and cooperation require immediate, unquestioning obedience.

[Acorn]

Great point. Kids pick up the "when to just do and when to question" balance as they mature. Expecting immediate, unquestioning obedience does not help them achieve that balance IMO.

 

Prior to homeschooling, I spent 20 years in the corporate world. The last 10 years of my career, I worked for Intel Corporation (as in "Intel Inside" - the high tech company). Intel has a very distinct company culture. A big part of that culture is a concept called "constructive confrontation". Employees are encouraged to constructively confront each other on issues - including confronting their managers. Questioning, arguing, and debate are actively promoted. Why? Because that's how you get innovation, new ideas, improvements to existing products, etc. If everyone just blindly agrees with those in charge, a company becomes stagnant and it fails. People either loved this culture, or they struggled in it (I loved it). I have a strong hunch that those who struggled with it the most where people who had been taught to always obey, and never question, authority.

 

I teach my kids the importance of respect and cooperation. But I don't think respect and cooperation require immediate, unquestioning obedience.

 

 

Exactly. It reminds me of a study evaluating Korean airplane crashes. In several cases, catastrophe could have been avoided if subordinate employees challenged superior officers. Their culture has so much "respect" for elders that was seen as better to crash a plane than speak up and say "Are you sure about that?".

[LucyStoner]

I have a son with HFA who is very persistent and focused on knowing why. At the times I tried to resort to an obedience/utter compliance tactics, things rapidly devolved into a hot mess for all concerned. I am firm but calm and peaceful and more than willing to give him the details and include him in the plan and decision when appropriate. I will make the why answer something silly to elict a laugh. "You need to wear socks to your classes because I don't want you to ruin your shoes. Also, if you have bare ankles little fuzzy ankle bitters will come and eat your ankles and well, imagine living without ankles. That would be weird." At this point his socks are going on. If I had said "because I'm mom", no matter how true that his, he'd be running out the door without socks. And things would be downhill from there.

 

ETA- that is not to say there are not consequences here, there are plenty of consequences for making bad decisions and I will judiciously dole out additional consequences. There are more rewards for good choices and behavior (not made as bribes in advance- acknowledging many of his good choices after the fact with something he values like a new book, a long bike ride, a you can. Choose dinner offer etc) . Since I let go of the idea that he should do it because I say so, we have had a much closer relationship and his behavior is leaps and bounds better. This is also the approach recommended by his clinician at the autism clinic.

[I.Dup.]

 

 

How many children would have been saved from abuse, if they were taught that it is okay to question being "obedient" to a priest? I will teach my children to be good decision makers. There are always cases in religion, military, or police forces etc. where obedience is not a virtue.

 

 

I'm not sure what it serves to bring up the most extreme cases to show why obedience is a problem. I figured it wasn't even a question that we are the authority and that our children should obey what we tell them to do. Maybe the word "obedience" is what squicks people out? If so, can you understand the dilemma we are speaking of here- children who REFUSE to do the most simple of tasks they are told to do *****at home, by their parents?*****

 

Regarding sexual issues and predators, we tell our children from the earliest ages that no one is to show or touch private parts. We teach them that there are very bad people who like to show off private parts and touch children's private parts, and if that EVER happens they are to come to us right away because these people, no matter who they are, are very bad. We keep them close to us (don't let them be alone in groups or with other adults) and ask them occasionally if anything like this has ever happened, and watch for signs.

[DianeW88]

 

Exactly. Please help me think of consequences to stop it! I have taken screen time, friend time (occasionally), the only thing I haven't taken away yet is swim team and we are very close.

Swim team would be gone in my house. You have to do something that gets the message across to her in a way that she understands. If she loves swim team, and she refuses to change her behavior, then she loses the privilege of being on swim team until she can behave herself. Tell her once that the next time she gives you carp....she's done. Then follow through. Do. not. back. down. against the tears and tantrums that follow. She has to learn, and it's best to do it while the consequences are smaller. Or you will have her behaving the same way when she's 15 and then stomping out the door with some guy in a car telling you she hates you and you might not see her again for days. Get control of the situation while you have time. It won't get better.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Also, your scenario of a mousy child who cowers and obeys no matter what they are told isn't even in our universe here, I am asking about outright defiant children. Having a child who cowers to everything and doesn't ever speak up is another issue entirely, and that sort of child isn't very common from what I hear, lol. I do have a soft spoken child (the 5yo mentioned) and he is on a different plane from what I am addressing here, we handle him completely differently.

 

 

If you were speaking to me...

 

I was not picturing any particular kind of child at all. I was merely reading a thread and found a (literally) fatal flaw in the argument for simple (blind, automatic, whatever) obedience. It is my experience that quiet, "mousy" children need even more help than usual in learning to be assertive and stick up for themselves and others. They will mind easily, but may have a hard time learning to be independent thinkers this way. It is also my experience that outright defiant, stong-willed children (and boy do I have plenty of experience with this type of child, having been one myself and having more than one mini-me in the house) who have their opinions squashed and are forced to silently "mind" are the children whose attitudes do not ever "come around." They may give the appearance of respect, being forced to do so, but the respect is an act, an act which the children resent putting on more and more, day by day. The trick is keeping their spirit without breaking it. And, for me, the key is earning real respect, not the appearance of respect.

 

I am getting déjà vu writing this. Have you started a thread similar to this before? Anyway, I can see that we won't agree. Just stating my opinion. Feel free to disagree, naturally. But you certainly should not assume that those who answer differently do not have any experience with strong-willed, defiant children. :)

[Acorn]

I do get you are dealing with a child that refuses to do simple tasks at home. We deal with that also, but the advice to be controlling and authoritative would be the worst way to handle it. I would never take away physical activity like swimming because that it the exercise that leads to better moods.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I'm not sure what it serves to bring up the most extreme cases to show why obedience is a problem.

 

:lol: Says the woman who brought up a 3yo who almost drowned? :lol:

[I.Dup.]

If you were speaking to me...

 

I was not picturing any particular kind of child at all. I was merely reading a thread and found a (literally) fatal flaw in the argument for simple (blind, automatic, whatever) obedience. It is my experience that quiet, "mousy" children need even more help than usual in learning to be assertive and stick up for themselves and others. They will mind easily, but may have a hard time learning to be independent thinkers this way. It is also my experience that outright defiant, stong-willed children (and boy do I have plenty of experience with this type of child, having been one myself and having more than one mini-me in the house) who have their opinions squashed and are forced to silently "mind" are the children whose attitudes do not ever "come around." They may give the appearance of respect, being forced to do so, but the respect is an act, an act which the children resent putting on more and more, day by day. The trick is keeping their spirit, not breaking it. And, for me, the key is earning real respect, not the appearance of respect.

 

I am getting déjà vu writing this. Have you started a thread similar to this before? Anyway, I can see that we won't agree. Just stating my opinion. Feel free to disagree, naturally. But you certainly should not assume that those who answer differently do not have any experience with strong-willed, defiant children. :)

 

 

I have posted about my difficult children before, along with many others who have difficult children. It is the most frustrating issue in my life. I have tried just about everything and am constantly trying to figure out where I am going wrong. Feel free to avoid my threads if they frustrate you.

 

And dh and I do not force anything or squash opinions. We are just trying to keep peace in our home and raise respectful adults who can express themselves appropriately and positively (for the most part, nobody is required to be perfect). Even getting a simple math lesson done or requiring that something be done by a certain time turns into a battle. That is what I am tired of- not that my children are not perfectly behaved, silent robots.

[I.Dup.]

I do get you are dealing with a child that refuses to do simple tasks at home. We deal with that also, but the advice to be controlling and authoritative would be the worst way to handle it. I would never take away physical activity like swimming because that it the exercise that leads to better moods.

 

 

People say that, but it doesn't seem to have any sort of lasting effect here. She gets home at 6pm and it helps from then until bed time, but it holds no lasting effect for the next day at all.

 

:lol: Says the woman who brought up a 3yo who almost drowned? :lol:

 

 

lol

[catz]

Swim team would be gone in my house. You have to do something that gets the message across to her in a way that she understands. If she loves swim team, and she refuses to change her behavior, then she loses the privilege of being on swim team until she can behave herself. Tell her once that the next time she gives you carp....she's done. Then follow through. Do. not. back. down. against the tears and tantrums that follow. She has to learn, and it's best to do it while the consequences are smaller. Or you will have her behaving the same way when she's 15 and then stomping out the door with some guy in a car telling you she hates you and you might not see her again for days. Get control of the situation while you have time. It won't get better.

 

 

I'm not sure I would be quick to take away a physical activity for a high strung child. I have punished my kids in many ways (taking away belongings, tech time, TV, social time, grounding, extra labor), but I think we'd be punishing the whole family to take away a positive outlet for some energy. At least I wouldn't do it without enforcing daily extended physical activity. YMMV of course.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I have posted about my difficult children before, along with many others who have difficult children. It is the most frustrating issue in my life. I have tried just about everything and am constantly trying to figure out where I am going wrong. Feel free to avoid my threads if they frustrate you.

 

And dh and I do not force anything or squash opinions. We are just trying to keep peace in our home and raise respectful adults who can express themselves appropriately and positively (for the most part, nobody is required to be perfect). Even getting a simple math lesson done or requiring that something be done by a certain time turns into a battle. That is what I am tired of- not that my children are not perfectly behaved, silent robots.

 

Not frustrated. Just wondering if I was typing the same thing to the same person. LOL

 

Since this is an ongoing problem, I do truly recommend the book mentioned earlier in this thread, Strong-Willed Child or Dreamer. Kids are who they are and it can be really helpful to get some perspective on their perspective. I think it is an extremely rare situation for the answer of how to parent a particular child to lie solely with the actions of the parent. The answer is in the child's personality as much as in the parents'.

[I.Dup.]

I'm not sure I would be quick to take away a physical activity for a high strung child. I have punished my kids in many ways (taking away belongings, tech time, TV, social time, grounding, extra labor), but I think we'd be punishing the whole family to take away a positive outlet for some energy. At least I wouldn't do it without enforcing daily extended physical activity. YMMV of course.

 

 

I know....I am reluctant to take ANYthing positive away. But swim team, time with friends, all of those positive things truly don't seem to have lasting positive effects.

 

I have read dozens of parenting books (it's all I read for the first 10 years or so) but I will check that one out, thanks Alte Veste!