S/O how do you deal with defiance from your children? (esp. moms of older kids!)

[I.Dup.]

This is a S/O from my other thread: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/453105-how-do-you-not-take-your-childrens-behavior-personally/

 

A poster mentioned this when I described my daughter's behavior:

 

How did you respond to that? Because if my dd had done any of those things at your dd's age....her life as she knew it would have absolutely ended. I would not allow her to get away with that kind of tone or attitude. And if she had even dared to slam her bedroom door....it would have been gone. She can live without a door. And screaming at me?? Not tolerated. I would have brought her back to the table and she could have sat there until that math was finished. As for the dog....no way. Honestly, if she gets away with this kind of disrespect and nonsense now....you are in for a h*ll of a ride when she hits 14 or so.

 

I have 2 children that are exceptionally strong willed, out of 6. The others are what I would describe "normal", sure they're not perfect, but nothing like these other 2.

 

I am wondering IF you deal with outright defiance in your house (telling you NO when you tell them to do something, slamming doors, talking back, rolling eyes, being snotty in responses to you, etc) and HOW you deal with this. If you have gotten good results in curbing this behavior, please share specifics of what you do and how you don't just fly off the handle yourself when they act in this way?

[Lily_Grace]

Bear in mind I'm a small person. Like, my 13yo is already bigger than me and has been for a year.

 

I learned a long time ago that minimal force but maximum direction got him to a good point behavior-wise. When he was little-little, I didn't have to parent. He went to daycare 5 days a week, came home for dinner, bath, and bed, and left again the next morning. On the weekends I got to be the fun mom. When I stopped working I realized we had huge problems. So I started all over again from the beginning. I worked on keeping myself non-emotional, and finding techniques that left both our dignity intact.

 

10 years later we are where we are. DH and I developed a stance that maturity = responsibility, responsibility = priviledge. If the maturity isn't there, the privileges and responsibility are curbed drastically. I don't do punishments like my parents did - grounding, yelling, etc. It is simply "ok, you aren't handling the expectations we have of you. We'll give you back the responsibilities and privileges you had 2 years ago: earlier bedtime, less freedom, less abilities. This will continue until you demonstrate the maturity needed for the privileges you just gave up. Here is what we're looking for:...."

 

Nobody in our house is allowed to yell, call names, etc. We worked very hard and long on learning calm down and communication techniques - all of us from the beginning, I think. I don't even think DS would try it at this point, 1. knowing the above would happen, and 2. the utter shame he would feel. When he was younger it was more having him repeat what he said, over and over and over again, until it was calm. I'd help, by restating his feelings in more acceptable words:

"this sucks! You're meaner than everyone else's mom!"

 

"You want to be out there with everyone else right now."

 

"yeah, you suck!"

 

"why?

 

"why what?"

 

"why do I suck?"

 

"cause you won't let me go play!"

 

"alright, I'm going to go take a few minutes to myself. I need a break. When you're ready to talk, let me know."

 

 

He wasn't always ready at first, but once he was able to quit stewing and actually own the emotion he was feeling (sadness), he was open to comfort. Then we'd have our real conversation where he'd start out with a variation of what I gave him ("I want to go outside now. All my friends will have to go in and I won't get any play time if I do this now."), letting me empathise and help him figure out a solution that worked for him and me (using a timer, closing the blinds, finding out what time his friend was heading in..) Otoh, I had to learn to let him be angry and leave him be, to go do my own thing unless he needed help finding ways to be angry that were acceptable (slamming doors, no. Throwing beanie babies against the wall, yes. Shouting, no. Running laps or coloring so hard the paper tore, yes.). I had to step back. Years and years ago a friend gave me a paper she wrote about the five stages of anger and it helped me figure out the best time to reach him, the best time to teach him, and the best time to intervene before he got out of control.

 

 

I will fully admit I'm a very non-emotional person when it comes to discipline. I need to be. I can't afford to be emotionally clouded when I'm trying to teach my kid to deal with his emotions. It's a good and a bad, since my empathy tends to lack, too, if I don't think about it, but I think overall it has helped my son develop.

[Dandelion]

I have an exceptionally strong-willed and oppositional child (DS9). His oppositional nature became evident when he was around 18 months old, and it hasn't really let up - it's just part of who he is. But we have become better at communicating and working with him. I've also worked on changing my perception of his oppositionality. Instead of viewing it as something negative, I'm trying to see it as a positive attribute that will be beneficial to him as he matures and learns to "resist authority" in more pro-social ways. ;) Most great leaders throughout history had a smidgen of oppositionality in their nature, right? :)

 

I've read pretty much every book out there about how to parent a strong-willed (aka difficult, challenging, etc. - I don't care for many of the adjectives commonly used, but insert your adjective of choice here) child. I've tried most of the advice. Most of it doesn't work with the exceptionally strong-willed kid, although I can see how it might work with moderately strong-willed kids. I've often laughed at the examples provided by some of these experts, because what they call "strong-willed" doesn't even begin to describe DS. It sounds fairly manageable to me.

 

Here's what has worked for us:

• I try to respond in a calm and kind manner no matter what. This has taken a LOT of practice. By nature, I am an impatient person with a low tolerance for poor behavior. I've got a bit of a short fuse. I have really had to overcome my own nature in order to effectively parent my son. If needed, I take a break before responding to him so I am in control of my response. When I respond calmly and kindly, it has a calming effect on him and we're better able to communicate. It also models the kind of behavior I want him to emulate.
  
• I don't engage in power struggles. They are useless and only serve to create more of a wedge between DS and me. Because of his nature, he is willing to dig in deeper and deeper and he has an innate need to win. He just doesn't back down. I'm no quitter either (hmmm, maybe that's where he gets it). ;) To avoid power struggles, I don't give ultimatums, I don't give "false choices" (choices that really aren't valid), and I don't try to have the last word. I save any battles for the truly important, non-negotiable stuff (health and safety for the most part).
  
• I ignore or dismiss behavior that is just meant to "bait" me into a power struggle. Slamming doors, talking back, rolling eyes, snotty responses are more often than not just ways to engage the parent in yet another argument or power struggle (and the baiting may be totally subconscious on the part of the child). I said "ignore or dismiss", because sometimes I do address it if I feel it needs to be corrected. I'm trying to teach DS how to be respectful after all. But usually, I'll just reiterate what I've already said (that led to DS's inappropriate response in the first place), in a calm kind tone - and I won't comment on the eye rolling or door slamming at all. After all, DS already knows it's inappropriate. I don't need to comment on it and get sucked into an argument over it. And he now comes and apologizes for that behavior - on his own - once he's calmed down. These days, I generally don't have to wait more than 5 minutes before he comes and says he's sorry for his behavior. That's the point at which we can calmly talk about how he can handle things better next time. Trying to talk about it before that point is worthless, because he's not ready to listen until he's calm.
  
• In response to defiant behavior, I will also often say "You seem upset. What's bothering you?". When I say this in a calm, caring tone, it helps DS know that I'm on his side and trying to help. This immediately reduces defensiveness. Most of the time, he's then able to tell me what's really bothering him - which is at the root of his defiant, oppositional response. The defiance is just the symptom. Something is bothering him, but he becomes overwhelmed by his strong emotions, so he reacts poorly. Asking him what's bothering him allows us to get to the real issue and address that. It's often something really minor that I'm easily able to help him with - and then we can move on. If I just react to his awful tone and behavior, we don't solve the problem and can get locked in a power struggle. Responding by getting to the root cause is much more effective.
  
• Finally, there's "hug therapy". I shared this in another thread a few days ago. When I see DS's behavior start to deteriorate, I will often just say "DS, do you need a hug?". About 97% of the time (seriously!), he will smile, stop whatever crappy behavior he was engaging in, and come for a hug. We hug it out and then all is well. Easiest "disciplinary approach" ever. I've even taught DH to use it with good results (and they butt heads a lot more than DS and I do).
  

Gotta run for now, but I hope that helps! :)

[Catwoman]

I won't quote Julie's entire post, but I will say that I agree with her 100%. :thumbup:

 

I also think Lily_Grace had some great suggestions, but I don't think the approach would necessarily work with my ds -- not because it's not a good way to do things for many (or even most) people, but because if I kept repeating things back to my ds, he'd just keep digging his heels in even deeper. :tongue_smilie:

[I.Dup.]

Yes, Julie's tactics seem to work best here as well. Power struggles are seriously nightmarish. These kids just will. not. back. down. Nightmare.

[Catwoman]

I'm pretty much like Julie (Dandelion). I don't see my role as owner and overlord of my children. I don't want to control them in the sense I want them to do stuff just cuz I'm the parent and they should listen to me simply because I'm the parent. I guess I try to lead them to thinking about their actions and thinking about how what they do and say affects the people around them. And heck, I'm not perfect. Sometimes I say stuff to my kids that I wouldn't find very respectful either. So I apologize when I make mistakes.

 

I want to live in a peaceful home. I don't want constant screaming. I don't want power struggles. I don't want that there is no room for just having a bad moment or day. We all have that. I don't want to punish for every little thing.

 

Things are pretty peaceful around here. Granted my oldest is only 11, but I do see some changes in him. He does get moody sometimes. I try to listen to him when he is upset about stuff and let him cool off. Many times he will realize on his own that he was out of line and will apologize. But at least that didn't all turn into some epic battle leaving me feeling defeated and angry because I chose not to turn it into a power trip.

 

I feel the same way. It upsets me a bit to read posts about how parents feel the need to exert so much control over their kids, and when the disciplinary measures are incredibly strict. It bothers me when people talk about their kids in the way they'd talk about a disobedient pet... and I would feel badly if they were talking that way about a pet, too. :(

 

That said, I am the mom of one child. I'm sure I would be singing an entirely different tune if I was the mom of many kids, because having one kid get into a snotty mood is a nuisance, but when you have six or seven kids and one starts feeding off the attitude of another one, and that one starts irritating the next one........ I would think the parents would have to have a fairly good plan in place to get everyone back in line, or the parents would go :willy_nilly: :willy_nilly: :willy_nilly: :willy_nilly:

[DianeW88]

Well, since that was me you quoted, I'll tell you what we do. Pardon the no paragraphing...I can't think of enough bad things to say about Windows 8. We also started from the time my kids were little. Absolutely no name calling of any kind is tolerated in our home. They are also never allowed to yell and scream at one another, and it goes without saying they're not allowed to raise their voices to me or my dh. I grew up in a home where both of those things occurred among family members regularly, and I hated it. From the time my kids could speak, they were taught that we use soft voices and that we do not call names. If they did (and honestly, it only happened on a handful of occasions), they were immediately put in time out or a privilege was taken away. We were very consistent and it really didn't take them very long to learn what kind of behavior was part of our family culture. I can also say that my dh and I never yell at each other, and we hardly ever argue. I don't know why...we just don't. We've always gotten along well, and we've always managed to discuss any problems or issues we've had without fighting about any of it. So my kids have never even seen that kind of behavior. The first time my oldest son saw a mother yell at her child, he was 4 years old....and he promptly burst into tears. I think teaching your kids how to treat one another and what respectful, acceptable behavior is from the time they can toddle around makes a big difference in how they behave as they grow older.

[Catwoman]

Oh and the term "obedience" grates on me worse than fingernails down a chalk board. My children aren't dogs or slaves. That's what I think of when I hear/read that word. Like I'm gonna crack the whip and yell giddy up. Eek. Maybe that isn't what people mean, but that's what I think of.

 

Yeah, "obedient" isn't a term I have ever even thought about using for my ds. I have even felt kind of funny when I've heard people say it about our dogs. They have personalities; they're not mindless, obedient drones! (But of course, I knew the people meant it in a nice way, so I just smiled and thanked them.)

[Trilliums]

I think teaching your kids how to treat one another and what respectful, acceptable behavior is from the time they can toddle around makes a big difference in how they behave as they grow older.

 

 

I totally agree. :)

 

But, one can do this and still have kids who yell/scream and slam doors at some point.

Likewise, some kids raised in the argumentative, contentious households do not end up being that way themselves and some of them do.

[DianeW88]

I seriously can't stand that I can't paragraph. LOL As far as power struggles go, we don't have those either. I have two strong willed kids out of three, both over achievers, both hard workers with high ambitions, both very opinionated. Because of our family culture, we've always discussed things rather than argued over them. We have high expectations for our kids and they have always known the kind of behavior we've expected. We live in a neighborhood and culture where everyone around us has the same standards and expectations. For example, in our church, nobody dates (real dates where the boy comes to the girl's house, picks her up and they go out for the evening) until they're 16. All my kids' friends have the same standards, their church leaders and youth group members have the same standards, and my kids are supported and encouraged by others in addition to myself and my dh. If they don't like something my dh or I say, chances are I can mention it to one of their youth leaders and the subject will be addressed in a lesson or activity, or just over somebody else's kitchen table. Sometimes kids are much more responsive to someone outside of their family than to a parent. I have never felt alone or like I was raising my kids in a vacuum. I have LOVED the support of others around me and I am always grateful to those who also love and care for my kids. And I do the same for theirs.

[Catwoman]

 

 

I totally agree. :)

 

But, one can do this and still have kids who yell/scream and slam doors at some point.

 

That's very true. I'm sure most of us have had our "moments," too -- even if it's only an occasional thing in an otherwise happy household.

[MEVmom]

Dandelion's son sounds a lot like my 5.5 yr old DD, and I really like her advice. I'm still working on the balance of when to intervene because she's losing control of her emotions and when to just let her wind herself down. It's difficult.

[2squared]

Love a lot of the comments here, especially as we enter the tween years. My 10yo will be 11yo next month, and the hormones are flying in her little body. Thankfully, I know b/c she purposefully comes to tell how confused and frustrated and unhappy she feels.

 

Last week she wrote me a text that said, "I HATE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and it was my first time seeing or hearing those words from any of the kids (well, I'm sure they said it as toddlers, but I wiped those memories away). In a moment of magical parenting, I calmly texted back, "Words hurt. Once you write them down you cannot take them back." That was it. 20ish minutes later she came out of her bedroom apologizing and looking for a hug.

 

FWIW, I am finding that more physical touch and more daily chatting one-on-one is a requirement of these tween years. If my dd isn't feeling connected, the hormones take over. We have also spent a lot of time discussing her friends, her relationship with her friends, and how dh, dd, & I are a team whose job is to get her through the teen years. I clearly tell her that we are the only two people she knows who are always on her team - we may not agree with each other, we may not be happy with each other, but we are always, always on her team.

 

ETA: My dd goes to a knitting club at least twice a week with a bunch of grandmas and great-grandmas. I love seeing their influence on my little girl. She doesn't even realize what's happening to her, but I consider that group of ladies to be another "safe" spot for her to land in these difficult years.

[Catwoman]

Dandelion's son sounds a lot like my 5.5 yr old DD, and I really like her advice. I'm still working on the balance of when to intervene because she's losing control of her emotions and when to just let her wind herself down. It's difficult.

 

That's so true.

 

It can also be difficult to remain calm when a kid is acting over-the-top, because it's very easy to get sucked into the drama. It can take real effort to be the calm in the middle of the storm!

[DianeW88]

Last post...or third paragraph. If I could do that. :banghead: I also think children need to know exactly what the consequences are if they break any family rules. We all (kids included) had a Family Night where we sat down and together made some rules for our family and the consequences that would occur if any of those rules were broken. What I found interesting was that my children were asking for consequences that were more strict than what my dh and I would have proposed. My daughter said something interesting when we pointed that out. She told us that "sometimes it's harder for kids to learn to control our impulses when we really want to do something. But if it's worse to NOT do that thing, then we'll learn self-control, because we REALLY don't want the punishment. Then once we've tried being good, it gets easier to do the next time." They proposed losing their allowance for a MONTH if they were fighting with a sibling. Nobody wanted that to happen, so they all would remind each other and then find a way to work out their problems without fighting. When they were little, we also had the "Red light/Green light Basket". Whenever I would see a child misbehaving, they would get a red scrap of construction paper placed in a basket. By the same token, if I saw them doing something GOOD, they got a green scrap. If they had more green than red at the end of the week, we went out for ice cream. It made me pay more attention to their good behavior, because I wanted to focus on that. It worked like a charm!! Catch them doing good!

[Trilliums]

Could your DD have undiagnosed LDs?

 

My son was not defiant in some of the ways you mention, but from ages 8-10 had rough times. He announced around age 8 that he was never going to learn to read and he would find other ways to cope. He declared his hate from math and writing quite regularly. While he didn't slam doors, etc, he did say that he felt as though no one understood him and sometimes ran off in tears/frustration. I spent a lot of time trying to better understand him. It was draining and hard to do! He processes information differently than I do and now I see that the world in general was very confusing and scary to him. He did not understand a lot of actions the way I expected him to and he reacted with defensiveness. I tried to learn about him and I definitely agree with the hug therapy, or some other technique that brings you closer together and doesn't drive a wedge between you. He is now 16 yo and life is really good. Plus, he loves math! Seriously. He loves back rubs too. :)

[Pink Fairy]

My ultra strong-willed kid has LD's and some other issues that make parenting him normally impossible. I haven't found what works yet, but Julie's advice really resonates with me and I'm going to try those things. ♥

[Parrothead]

I don't have a defiant child. I don't know if it is her personality or the way she was raised or a combination.

 

Treating each other respectfully has always been something stressed from a very early age. "There is no yelling in this house, " is a way of life for us. We have always modeled and expected kindness. We have always modeled and as Joanne says "got off our butts and parented." There was no yelling from the couch to "Go do ___." Dh or I got up and modeled and helped until dd understood exactly what was asked.

 

I don't ask dd to do something I'm not willing to do. I also think there is a big difference between asking and telling. Telling is saved for serious times. "Do no run into the street." "Take your dog out now." Or if I tell I give time, "Today your room needs to be cleaned prior to doing ___." This allow her to do it within her own time not as an automaton.

 

We also have high expectations for behavior with immediate consequences for misbehavior. The three of us have to live together so we work on making it as pleasant as possible for all involved. If someone wants to break the peace of the household they can go to their room and be ugly there.

[Parrothead]

 

That's so true.

 

It can also be difficult to remain calm when a kid is acting over-the-top, because it's very easy to get sucked into the drama. It can take real effort to be the calm in the middle of the storm!

 

Yes, but it is so worth it when one pulls it off.

[catz]

I really like Julie's post!

 

My 2nd child is so much more strong willed than my first. And I had some extremely strong willed years my self. I was actually much easier through high school/after puberty (I hit puberty rather early). One thing I remember about those years of being defiant and crabby is I always felt alone and misunderstood. I always felt like my parents were just too busy to connect with me on a 1-on-1 basis.

 

So anyway, the hug therapy has become a big thing here. Yesterday, out of the blue, DD8 thought the world was ganging up on her and blew up yelling and ran to her room. 5 minutes late, I knocked on her door, went in to cuddle her, and asked her what the real problem was and I talked with her about strategies to talk about her feelings in ways that don't set the rest of us on edge.

 

I also don't think it's my job to make my kids obey. I think it's my job to tell them logically what kind of behavoir will serve them best in our family in life and reiterate and model it often. I rarely yell. I also trying to connect with both of my kids individually - talk about what they're interested in even if it bores me to tears, do stuff with them one on one, etc. I think we're a far cry from perfect here too, but I do think my daughter is much less ornery than I was just because of some different strategies.

[I.Dup.]

I definitely think this area is different with one child vs. many children. ;) Like a PP said, one child acting up is one thing. But for the oldest to be modeling a certain behavior and have many pairs of eyes watching their every move, that is different. We have to hold our kids to higher standards than we might if they were not affecting anyone else, or if they were not very difficult to begin with. I don't know what you want to call it- obedience, basic respect, whatever, but something needs to happen where the kids aren't in complete control with every emotional whim they have.

 

These 2 children do not show any signs at all of LDs. They just seem to have a harder than normal time controlling their emotional responses.

 

Dh and I do not yell at each other. We occasionally argue about something, but not in a heated way, just in a back and forth sort of way. I do not yell at my children to do things while sitting on the couch. I do not hold them to unreasonably high standards, if anything I am the opposite and don't require much of them. Dh does yell at the kids when they don't listen but that is by far our last resort. I think "screaming" was a bad description since my children never scream in a shrill, top of their voice sort of way, they do yell.

 

They know the expectations and choose not to respect them, or can't seem to control their responses, I'm not sure which. I do remember how horrible it felt when my emotions felt so huge and out of control as I was growing up, but I have consistently modeled right reactions and we have spent many hours talking to our children about ways to handle their emotions, talking through their emotions, and yet we still have these outbursts and blatant disrespect at times. I hate it that they are modeling it for the others who are much easier children.

[TranquilMind]

Yes, Julie's tactics seem to work best here as well. Power struggles are seriously nightmarish. These kids just will. not. back. down. Nightmare.

 

I have learned this myself. Like in Survivor, one of mine can outwit, outlast and outplay me.

[Catwoman]

 

I have learned this myself. Like in Survivor, one of mine can outwit, outlast and outplay me.

 

 

But if you get voted off the island, you can go get a nice, quiet place of your own......... ;)

[justamouse]

I love all these posts.

 

Diane, we also have a no yelling rule, they are not allowed to talk to each other with disrespect. I never understood how my Grandma raised five kids like that, and now I do--you stop it *immediately*.

 

Soft voice, soft hands, soft heart.

 

That was NOT the way with my first, not at all. I learned the hard way.

[justamouse]

iDUP, I just got done reading The Optimistic Child (which was awesome) and it has some great walk through examples of how to deal with this stuff.

[Parrothead]

I definitely think this area is different with one child vs. many children. ;) Like a PP said, one child acting up is one thing. But for the oldest to be modeling a certain behavior and have many pairs of eyes watching their every move, that is different. We have to hold our kids to higher standards than we might if they were not affecting anyone else, or if they were not very difficult to begin with. I don't know what you want to call it- obedience, basic respect, whatever, but something needs to happen where the kids aren't in complete control with every emotional whim they have.

 

These 2 children do not show any signs at all of LDs. They just seem to have a harder than normal time controlling their emotional responses.

 

Dh and I do not yell at each other. We occasionally argue about something, but not in a heated way, just in a back and forth sort of way. I do not yell at my children to do things while sitting on the couch. I do not hold them to unreasonably high standards, if anything I am the opposite and don't require much of them. Dh does yell at the kids when they don't listen but that is by far our last resort. I think "screaming" was a bad description since my children never scream in a shrill, top of their voice sort of way, they do yell.

 

They know the expectations and choose not to respect them, or can't seem to control their responses, I'm not sure which. I do remember how horrible it felt when my emotions felt so huge and out of control as I was growing up, but I have consistently modeled right reactions and we have spent many hours talking to our children about ways to handle their emotions, talking through their emotions, and yet we still have these outbursts and blatant disrespect at times. I hate it that they are modeling it for the others who are much easier children.

 

Maybe you would be better served if you required more of them.

 

What do you do when they don't control their responses or meet expectations or blatantly disobey the rules?

[catz]

I definitely think this area is different with one child vs. many children. ;) Like a PP said, one child acting up is one thing. But for the oldest to be modeling a certain behavior and have many pairs of eyes watching their every move, that is different. We have to hold our kids to higher standards than we might if they were not affecting anyone else, or if they were not very difficult to begin with. I don't know what you want to call it- obedience, basic respect, whatever, but something needs to happen where the kids aren't in complete control with every emotional whim they have.

 

 

 

I only had one sibling growing up. He was only 19 months younger than me. But it was constantly thrown at me that I had to be the "big kid" and there were higher expectations. There was so much tension between my younger sibling and I.

 

I've said this on the board before, but it was one of the best pieces of parenting advice I ever got and it has definitely guided how I deal with my 2 kids or even larger groups of kids, which we often seem to be in the middle of. If kids are quarreling, average the age of the kids and expect that level of behavior from ALL the kids while they are together. My kids are almost 4 years apart, so they aren't super close in age. Even when my youngest was an infant, I would not allow her to just crawl through and mess up something the older was working on and I had places in the house where older could have some sacred space. My oldest kid is pretty laid back, but he would definitely be pushing back hard if he had to bend to his younger sister on a regular basis. 95% of the time now they work out their own conflicts because I don't allow them to pit me against the other. If one comes and said "My sib did X". I say "Interesting. What was going on before X happened?" Because rarely does something just happen out of the blue. If they can't solve a conflict, everyone will pay the price.

 

I am not saying you're singling out kids. Your post just reminded me of this.

[bzymom]

Say it and mean it. Follow through each and every time, even if it brings you to tears to do it. My 3 boys are young men now, all bigger than I am, and they are all respectful. I don't yell (I hate raised voices), and I don't hit (which worked out well since they can throw me over their shoulders now), but I will tear your life down to your most basic needs if I have to. And if you behave like a two-year old, you will soon remember two-year olds don't have a lot of freedom or privilege.

[2squared]

something needs to happen where the kids aren't in complete control with every emotional whim they have

 

 

Do you truly expect your children, or anyone for that matter, to have complete control of every emotion all the time? If so, then I would expect this expectation is causing a problem. No one has complete control all the time, and especially not children.

 

I don't see that outbursts or disobedience or whatever as an automatic negative for the other eyes. Sure, I expect more out of the older kids, but I also know that when they falter, the littler eyes see the consequences. My littles are constantly comparing their "better" behavior to the older kids' behaviors. They are also seeing that everyone falters, and they see the proportionate (and hopefully effective) consequences of faltering.

[somo_chickenlady]

This is a S/O from my other thread: http://forums.welltr...ior-personally/

 

A poster mentioned this when I described my daughter's behavior:

 

How did you respond to that? Because if my dd had done any of those things at your dd's age....her life as she knew it would have absolutely ended. I would not allow her to get away with that kind of tone or attitude. And if she had even dared to slam her bedroom door....it would have been gone. She can live without a door. And screaming at me?? Not tolerated. I would have brought her back to the table and she could have sat there until that math was finished. As for the dog....no way. Honestly, if she gets away with this kind of disrespect and nonsense now....you are in for a h*ll of a ride when she hits 14 or so.

 

I have 2 children that are exceptionally strong willed, out of 6. The others are what I would describe "normal", sure they're not perfect, but nothing like these other 2.

 

I am wondering IF you deal with outright defiance in your house (telling you NO when you tell them to do something, slamming doors, talking back, rolling eyes, being snotty in responses to you, etc) and HOW you deal with this. If you have gotten good results in curbing this behavior, please share specifics of what you do and how you don't just fly off the handle yourself when they act in this way?

 

To the red...I have to agree. That behavior would NEVER fly in our household, and DS knows that. Depending on the severity of the behavior, he looses privileges, belongings, and privacy. Just last weekend things came to a head with DS and he lost all of his belongings and privileges. He is slowly earning them back, one at a time, with good (expected) behavior. We have never had to take his door off the frame, but we wouldn't hesitate to do so if we felt the need. If his attitude is really bad, he gets a 3 hour time out, in his room, with just a book to read...all electronics and other belongings (yu-gi-oh cards, etc) are taken away. If his attitude is improved at the end of the 3 hours, he can get out of time out, but if it isn't, he gets another 3 hours. We rarely have problems that severe, though.

 

The only way to really deal with it, though, it is nip it in the bud as soon as it happens. Talking back or screaming? INSTANT loss of privileges, NO backing down. With DS we don't give him a set timeline on when he earns his things back, it is solely determined on how much and how quickly his behavior improves. He may earn it back in a day, or it may take a week or two...it just depends on him. We have found that this gets a better result, b/c when we took things away for a predetermined time, he would just hold out until that time period was over and nothing really changed. Now, it is all about personal accountability.

[TranquilMind]

But if you get voted off the island, you can go get a nice, quiet place of your own......... ;)

 

Yes, something to look forward to!

[TranquilMind]

 

The only way to really deal with it, though, it is nip it in the bud as soon as it happens. Talking back or screaming? INSTANT loss of privileges, NO backing down. With DS we don't give him a set timeline on when he earns his things back, it is solely determined on how much and how quickly his behavior improves. He may earn it back in a day, or it may take a week or two...it just depends on him. We have found that this gets a better result, b/c when we took things away for a predetermined time, he would just hold out until that time period was over and nothing really changed. Now, it is all about personal accountability.

 

My husband and I did all this.

 

Worked great for one; worked not at all for the other.

 

It isn't a formula with a sure result...unfortunately.

[somo_chickenlady]

My husband and I did all this.

 

Worked great for one; worked not at all for the other.

 

It isn't a formula with a sure result...unfortunately.

 

It works for our DS, probably b/c he is normally a really relaxed, laid back kid, and his behavior rarely requires this so when it does it is pretty effective. He has learned that he doesn't like to be without his belongings and quickly shapes up to get them back. It may not work for all kids, but you never know until you try it and she asked for suggestions on what works, and this works for us. ;)

[Pink Fairy]

My husband and I did all this.

 

Worked great for one; worked not at all for the other.

 

It isn't a formula with a sure result...unfortunately.

 

True story. But I know it's hard to imagine if you don't have one of these kids. They know how to keep you humble about your parenting skills, that's for sure!

[Dandelion]

My husband and I did all this.

 

Worked great for one; worked not at all for the other.

 

It isn't a formula with a sure result...unfortunately.

True story. But I know it's hard to imagine if you don't have one of these kids. They know how to keep you humble about your parenting skills, that's for sure!

 

Absolutely. We tried the hard-line approach with DS as well and it only escalated things with him. He simply doesn't respond to consequences like a "typical" child. He would just dig in and we would eventually run out of consequence options. At some point, you can't layer on any more consequences, and you have no more privileges to remove. Then what? And it's not just that, it's also the negative impact to the relationship with your child. We were spending all day every day responding to every instance of defiance. It takes its toll on the entire family. DH and I were both parented with that approach, so it's what we knew. But we were both typical, easygoing kids so it worked just fine with us. We really had to rethink everything we thought we knew about parenting to find the right way to parent DS.

 

With DD, I can just give her a look and she instantly stops what she's doing. We're the same parents, but we're dealing with two completely different personalities and temperaments in our kids.

 

As Pink Fairy said, unless people have a strong-willed, oppositional child of their own, it's hard for them to really understand how difficult parenting these kids can be. Conventional parenting methods often simply don't work with kids like this. If DD were our only child, I wouldn't get it either - parenting her is a breeze.

[I.Dup.]

Maybe you would be better served if you required more of them.

 

What do you do when they don't control their responses or meet expectations or blatantly disobey the rules?

 

I have been sending her to her room, taking away privileges (mostly screen time or emailing a friend in the afternoon if she was looking forward to that) and honestly the taking away privileges does nothing with these kids. It's just one more thing for them to argue about and throw a fit over, or they just become cold about it and act like they don't care at all. One thing I hear a lot from her is "I don't care!" when I take something away.

 

Her currency is definitely social time but even that doesn't seem to phase her all that much. She does have plenty of time with friends.

 

I only had one sibling growing up. He was only 19 months younger than me. But it was constantly thrown at me that I had to be the "big kid" and there were higher expectations. There was so much tension between my younger sibling and I.

 

I've said this on the board before, but it was one of the best pieces of parenting advice I ever got and it has definitely guided how I deal with my 2 kids or even larger groups of kids, which we often seem to be in the middle of. If kids are quarreling, average the age of the kids and expect that level of behavior from ALL the kids while they are together. My kids are almost 4 years apart, so they aren't super close in age. Even when my youngest was an infant, I would not allow her to just crawl through and mess up something the older was working on and I had places in the house where older could have some sacred space. My oldest kid is pretty laid back, but he would definitely be pushing back hard if he had to bend to his younger sister on a regular basis. 95% of the time now they work out their own conflicts because I don't allow them to pit me against the other. If one comes and said "My sib did X". I say "Interesting. What was going on before X happened?" Because rarely does something just happen out of the blue. If they can't solve a conflict, everyone will pay the price.

 

I am not saying you're singling out kids. Your post just reminded me of this.

 

Yes, I try to be careful about this. My other strong willed child (to say the least) is only 6 and I don't let him get away with bugging her or the rest of his siblings. We don't allow bullying at ALL, being rude, mean, etc. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen though.

 

Do you truly expect your children, or anyone for that matter, to have complete control of every emotion all the time? If so, then I would expect this expectation is causing a problem. No one has complete control all the time, and especially not children.

 

 

No, of course not. I meant that I don't want them to have control over the house with their bad behavior, and that seems to happen very easily with these 2.

 

It works for our DS, probably b/c he is normally a really relaxed, laid back kid, and his behavior rarely requires this so when it does it is pretty effective.

 

Nothing against you, and I do appreciate your advice, but I really think this is the case for parents who have easy solutions "just let them know your expectations" or "just model respect" etc, I truly don't think they know what it's like to have a child that really couldn't give a sh*t about expectations or respect. And these 2 have been spunky since birth so I have a feeling it is an innate part of their personality. It is the most frustrating thing I have ever had to deal with.

[I.Dup.]

Absolutely. We tried the hard-line approach with DS as well and it only escalated things with him. He simply doesn't respond to consequences like a "typical" child. He would just dig in and we would eventually run out of consequence options. At some point, you can't layer on any more consequences, and you have no more privileges to remove. Then what? And it's not just that, it's also the negative impact to the relationship with your child. We were spending all day every day responding to every instance of defiance. It takes its toll on the entire family. DH and I were both parented with that approach, so it's "what we knew". But we were both typical, easygoing kids so it worked just fine with us. We really had to rethink everything we thought we knew about parenting to find the right way to parent DS.

 

With DD, I can just give her a look and she instantly stops what she's doing. We're the same parents, but we're dealing with two completely different personalities and temperaments in our kids.

 

As Pink Fairy said, unless people have a strong-willed, oppositional child of their own, it's hard for them to really understand how difficult parenting these kids can be. Conventional parenting methods often simply don't work with kids like this. If DD were our only child, I wouldn't get it either - parenting her is a breeze.

 

EXACTLY. What is the deal with these kids?

[TammyS]

I think that parenting conversations often present people with a false choice between "expecting obedience and treating your children like dogs/slaves" or "respecting your children's feelings/thoughts/personhood". It really isn't either/or. At least, it doesn't have to be.

 

My 14 year old son is 6'6". And we require obedience. He is expected to say "yes sir/m'am", do what he's told when he's told to do it, and all of the other things that go along with obedience. Because we are the legitimate authority of over him. And we are far from being the last one he will have to deal with.

 

But we also respect his feelings, and talk to him about why things are necessary and what can happen when you don't do what needs to be done. We let him know that he can talk to us about things or make suggestions for alternate arrangements, etc., and that we will listen. Sometimes we change our mind, sometimes not. But once the decision is made, is required to obey, whether he likes or agrees with it or not. Obedience does not require the person to be happy about it. He can dislike it, as long as he isn't trying to spew his misery onto others.

 

I honestly don't know how you would go about doing this with a 14 year old, if you didn't start when they were toddlers, as we did. We don't have a set punishment for each infraction, but he does know with certainty that there will be a punishment, even if it doesn't come right away (this is for older children, not little ones who need it to be right away to make the connection). The few times he's attempted something like "I won't", I just say ok and walk away. He knows there will be a punishment, that isn't news to him. Almost every time, he's ended up doing it anyway after I walk away, because he knows there will be a punishment, even if he doesn't know exactly what it will be.

 

What I don't do is stand there an argue with him. That is a losing situation for us both. We both will get more upset, it will go on for much longer, and it's not like it gets more rational (on either side) the longer it goes on. Walking away also gives him a chance to think about whether he REALLY wants to pursue that course or not.

 

I also don't get drawn into trying to make him happy with me or worry that he doesn't like it. He's a kid. A kid is not someone from whom to take contructive feedback. He doesn't have to like it or agree. That's fine. He doesn't yet understand as an adult does. And if he did, then it would be wrong and insulting for me to continue exerting authority over someone who no longer needed it.

[TranquilMind]

It works for our DS, probably b/c he is normally a really relaxed, laid back kid, and his behavior rarely requires this so when it does it is pretty effective. He has learned that he doesn't like to be without his belongings and quickly shapes up to get them back. It may not work for all kids, but you never know until you try it and she asked for suggestions on what works, and this works for us. ;)

 

Oh, I know. Our son is like yours. Therefore, it worked with him too!

[TranquilMind]

Absolutely. We tried the hard-line approach with DS as well and it only escalated things with him. He simply doesn't respond to consequences like a "typical" child. He would just dig in and we would eventually run out of consequence options. At some point, you can't layer on any more consequences, and you have no more privileges to remove. Then what? And it's not just that, it's also the negative impact to the relationship with your child. We were spending all day every day responding to every instance of defiance. It takes its toll on the entire family. DH and I were both parented with that approach, so it's what we knew. But we were both typical, easygoing kids so it worked just fine with us. We really had to rethink everything we thought we knew about parenting to find the right way to parent DS.

 

With DD, I can just give her a look and she instantly stops what she's doing. We're the same parents, but we're dealing with two completely different personalities and temperaments in our kids.

 

As Pink Fairy said, unless people have a strong-willed, oppositional child of their own, it's hard for them to really understand how difficult parenting these kids can be. Conventional parenting methods often simply don't work with kids like this. If DD were our only child, I wouldn't get it either - parenting her is a breeze.

 

Yes to all this!

[Snow]

 

 

 

Absolutely. We tried the hard-line approach with DS as well and it only escalated things with him. He simply doesn't respond to consequences like a "typical" child. He would just dig in and we would eventually run out of consequence options. At some point, you can't layer on any more consequences, and you have no more privileges to remove. Then what? And it's not just that, it's also the negative impact to the relationship with your child. We were spending all day every day responding to every instance of defiance. It takes its toll on the entire family. DH and I were both parented with that approach, so it's what we knew. But we were both typical, easygoing kids so it worked just fine with us. We really had to rethink everything we thought we knew about parenting to find the right way to parent DS.

 

With DD, I can just give her a look and she instantly stops what she's doing. We're the same parents, but we're dealing with two completely different personalities and temperaments in our kids.

 

As Pink Fairy said, unless people have a strong-willed, oppositional child of their own, it's hard for them to really understand how difficult parenting these kids can be. Conventional parenting methods often simply don't work with kids like this. If DD were our only child, I wouldn't get it either - parenting her is a breeze.

 

Sing it, sister. I wish I could triple-like your post.

[TammyS]

It's so interesting how different people are. I would probably want to punish my child for calling me ma'am. And DH would not go for sir. Nobody talks like that around here and sometimes when they do it's taken as snarky rudeness. It would be akin to my kid calling me "your highness".

 

He's welcome to call me "Your Highness", "Your Royal Highness", or "You Unbelievably Awesome Authority Figure". But ma'am will suffice.

[catz]

 

Oh I have one of those kids. When you have taken everything away and tossed them in their room and they still won't listen to you what is left? Beating them? KWIM? I once got so frustrated I slapped my youngest. I don't hit my kids. But I was desperate. It was such an ugly horrible moment and to this day he remembers it and it was years ago. It didn't change anything. It didn't help. It didn't work. He didn't become more manageable. I had to approach him in a completely different way. I figured, I'm the parent. He is supposed to listen to me. "This isn't going to fly." Um yeah....not.so.simple. Since approaching him differently he has become a heck of a lot easier to deal with. Issues are far and few between. I didn't get stricter and nastier and more authoritative.

 

I just want to throw that out there lest anyone thinks I just got lucky with easy kids, and always have things figured out. Definitely not!

 

Both my kids are truly difficult. My 2 hardest years with my oldest was when he was attending school. He had a street rep on the playground after school as a 5-7 year old. In the case of both my kids, I saw us butting heads, and made serious changes. It led to homeschooling with my oldest. With my younger, I absolutely had to find some positive outlets for her emotional and physical energy. I'd never dreamed I'd have an 8 year old dancing and doing acrobatics for 8 hours a week, but that's where we are. Actually, my older needs these kind of outlets too. When the outlets are gone or on break, I pay a price, constantly.

 

 

I don't know the answer for every kid obviously, but I have found some workable solutions for both my kids that makes life a bunch more pleasant for all of us. I really do believe kids need to be treated as individuals. What works for one, won't necessarily work for another.

[somo_chickenlady]

I think that parenting conversations often present people with a false choice between "expecting obedience and treating your children like dogs/slaves" or "respecting your children's feelings/thoughts/personhood". It really isn't either/or. At least, it doesn't have to be.

 

My 14 year old son is 6'6". And we require obedience. He is expected to say "yes sir/m'am", do what he's told when he's told to do it, and all of the other things that go along with obedience. Because we are the legitimate authority of over him. And we are far from being the last one he will have to deal with.

 

But we also respect his feelings, and talk to him about why things are necessary and what can happen when you don't do what needs to be done. We let him know that he can talk to us about things or make suggestions for alternate arrangements, etc., and that we will listen. Sometimes we change our mind, sometimes not. But once the decision is made, is required to obey, whether he likes or agrees with it or not. Obedience does not require the person to be happy about it. He can dislike it, as long as he isn't trying to spew his misery onto others.

 

I honestly don't know how you would go about doing this with a 14 year old, if you didn't start when they were toddlers, as we did. We don't have a set punishment for each infraction, but he does know with certainty that there will be a punishment, even if it doesn't come right away (this is for older children, not little ones who need it to be right away to make the connection). The few times he's attempted something like "I won't", I just say ok and walk away. He knows there will be a punishment, that isn't news to him. Almost every time, he's ended up doing it anyway after I walk away, because he knows there will be a punishment, even if he doesn't know exactly what it will be.

 

What I don't do is stand there an argue with him. That is a losing situation for us both. We both will get more upset, it will go on for much longer, and it's not like it gets more rational (on either side) the longer it goes on. Walking away also gives him a chance to think about whether he REALLY wants to pursue that course or not.

 

I also don't get drawn into trying to make him happy with me or worry that he doesn't like it. He's a kid. A kid is not someone from whom to take contructive feedback. He doesn't have to like it or agree. That's fine. He doesn't yet understand as an adult does. And if he did, then it would be wrong and insulting for me to continue exerting authority over someone who no longer needed it.

 

You said it way better than I ever could, but this is almost identical to how we parent our son. Even down to the yes sir/ma'am (although he does that on his own, we never taught him to do that) and "what he's told, when he's told to do it"...that is our motto. Do what you're told, when you're told, and how you're told to do it, and everything is great!

 

We may sound strict, and we are. We just have certain expectations of respect. I respect him, and in turn I expect it from him. At the end of the day, though, I am still his parent, NOT his peer, and I will not accept certain behaviors, period. As Tammy said, we certainly won't be the last authoritative figures he will have to deal with in life, and we feel it is our job to prepare him to deal with that. I have ran into plenty of people in my adulthood that seemed to have never been taught respect for authority figures, and it shows. I want better for my child than that, and I would be embarrassed to see my child act the way some of those people act.

[justamouse]

I have to run and give a kidlet a late shower so just running in here

 

have you had her apologize and do something to restore your relationship? Have her go the extra mile?

 

Have you made sure that you are telling her how much you love her and really connecting with her? Because she has a lot of responsibility, and though she seems oldest, she's still a young girl. I'm sure you never put her in the position of parenting -- (I've seen that happen with just two siblings) but another one is coming and she needs some extra love. Hard to do when she's being a snot, I know.

[I.Dup.]

I have to run and give a kidlet a late shower so just running in here

 

have you had her apologize and do something to restore your relationship? Have her go the extra mile?

 

Have you made sure that you are telling her how much you love her and really connecting with her? Because she has a lot of responsibility, and though she seems oldest, she's still a young girl. I'm sure you never put her in the position of parenting -- (I've seen that happen with just two siblings) but another one is coming and she needs some extra love. Hard to do when she's being a snot, I know.

 

 

Yes to all, except requiring her to go the extra mile. I'm not sure what that would look like. I try to be VERY careful with the responsibilities I give her and make sure to connect with her regularly. I tell her I love her, praise her, encourage her, comfort her, etc. These 2 kids require SO much more than the others.

[swellmomma]

I am wondering IF you deal with outright defiance in your house (telling you NO when you tell them to do something, slamming doors, talking back, rolling eyes, being snotty in responses to you, etc) and HOW you deal with this. If you have gotten good results in curbing this behavior, please share specifics of what you do and how you don't just fly off the handle yourself when they act in this way?

 

 

I have 4 very defiant children, 2 with conduct disorder amongst their labels, 1 with ODD, and 1 sassy 5 year old. As for how I deal with it. I allow do overs most of the time, a stong "Excuse me?" when they start up is usually enough for my teens to start back pedalling. My 9 yr old has not yet ,learned that zipping it is his best course of action,to save his skin. Out of the times that that simple excuse me doesn't work with the teens, I tell them they have 10 seconds to reign it in before they find themselves hitch hiking to their activities, because I do not due extras for little punks getting too big for their britches. With ds9 I send him to his room where he continues to run his mouth but at least it is behind closed doors. There is times though that I have to go toe to toe with my teens. It is the nature of conduct disorder, regularily they test to see if I have weakened my resolve or if I will waver and so the reminders and do overs are not enough. And I have literally gotten nose to nose and yelled back. If anyone walked in on one of those moments they would assume I had flipped my lid. But it works. They shape up and for a long time the excuse me with a do over is enough.

 

That said there is certain things said that have resulted in more. Each of my oldest 3 have earned a slap in the mouth one time each for their mouths. Each time was for outright calling me a B*tch to my face. They each only need to learn that lesson once. I do not tolerate that at all, and there is no thought at all in that one. You call me that, you will be slapped, it is a reflex. But they don't ever cross that boundary again.

[Incognito]

The difficutly and defiance, combined with hard punishment not working well, reminds me of the book I am reading: Strong Willed Child or Dreamer?

 

http://www.amazon.com/Strong-Willed-Child-Dreamer-Dana-Spears/dp/0785277005/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360559708&sr=8-1&keywords=strong+willed+child+or+dreamer

 

It might be worth a perusal for you. I am finding it very insightful (about my own personality and childhood, as well as one of my kids). Punishment causes rage. Restitution makes a huge difference. I'm starting to implement it with my kids (since restitution is good for everyone, not just one type of kid), and I can see how the approaches in the book would have worked very well with me as a child (and would still work well with me!).

 

HTH

[Alte Veste Academy]

The difficutly and defiance, combined with hard punishment not working well, reminds me of the book I am reading: Strong Willed Child or Dreamer?

 

http://www.amazon.com/Strong-Willed-Child-Dreamer-Dana-Spears/dp/0785277005/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360559708&sr=8-1&keywords=strong+willed+child+or+dreamer

 

It might be worth a perusal for you. I am finding it very insightful (about my own personality and childhood, as well as one of my kids). Punishment causes rage. Restitution makes a huge difference. I'm starting to implement it with my kids (since restitution is good for everyone, not just one type of kid), and I can see how the approaches in the book would have worked very well with me as a child (and would still work well with me!).

 

I agree.

[Halftime Hope]

About obedience, in my experience, obedience isn't a dirty word. It means having the attitude of doing what someone asks you to do without automatically "bowing up" when asked to do something, even if you don't understand or don't agree. It is a very necessary skill in the business world and in real life. This must be accompanied by discernment and virtue, because any person will need to understand when they should not obey.

 

Here's an example: my husband has an area of responsibility within a hobby organization--people who are all there of their own choice. In addition to his normal responsibilities, he has been tasked with updating and revamping the group's database, redesigning the website, converting to an email newsletter, and his small team is adding all kinds of functionality to the group's database. He has been faced with mindless opposition to this from the get go. Everything from elderly people who don't want an email newletter (no problem, just say so, we'll send you a paper copy) to people who refuse to get their sub-group's competition scores to the newsletter person on time (so sorry, your results won't be in print this month) to people who will not update their email address (that's right, your newletter has been bouncing for three months, and now you complain) to fellow board members who won't change information in their New Member Orientation powerpoint because they didn't "like" or "understand" what he sent them, even after three emails.

 

This past Saturday, dh had to tell the Orientation presenter that when he sends information for the presentation, the OD needs to just do what dh said. He is welcome to call or email, but in the meantime, just do what he was asked to do. It was difficult for him to have to call the guy on his behavior.

 

All these people, cranky adults for the most part, are tearing each other apart and ruining their chances of having good people step up to the plate and take responsibility for pulling together and creating really good opportunities for themselves, because they're all so stubbornly independent and contentious, and they don't remember how to just obey, for cryin' outloud. Obey the group's rules (they will save your life), obey the instructions the officers give you (it will save your life and keep you from serious harm), obey when you are asked to do something reasonable even if you don't get it. (You don't always have to understand, for goodness sake. Assume the other guy has thought things through.)

 

Gaahh! Obedience is becoming a lost art.