If you HAD to do a formal composition program...

[AimeeM]

... with your dyslexic 11 year old, which would you do?

I just realized that since dd will be in grade 7 next year, we are required by law to do a formal "composition" program. After talking to a couple women on this board, I was actually going to skip formal comp with her until grade 8, when she had matured a bit; instead concentrating on grammar and spelling this next year. While reading isn't much a problem for her, spelling and writing are torture for her.

I wouldn't worry so much if there weren't a bill on the table in SC right now that may require us to actually *show* that we are following these guidelines and even possibly to have curriculum approved, if the bill passes. If the bill doesn't pass, I'll keep on with what I plan on doing (which is very slow and steady in the writing department), but if it does pass, I need a plan.

Right now, she can do "concrete" writing like outlines, but can't even write a paragraph, nor can she seem to remember to indent paragraphs. She is struggling to identify topic sentences, etc.

I suppose I *could* really accelerate in those areas and have her ready for something more formal next year, but I can promise this will result in her hating writing even more than she already does (which is a significant dislike even now).

*sigh*

[Crimson Wife]

EPS' The Paragraph Book series is designed for remedial use in middle school and minimizes the physical aspect. It teaches how to write basic paragraphs from soup to nuts, including formatting. You don't need the TM as that is geared towards classroom use.

[FLDebbie]

I haven't gotten to that point yet with my dyslexic son, but I've read that IEW is a good program for dyslexics and plan to use it with him in a couple of years. If the physical writing is too difficult, I'd let her dictate to me and I'd do the writing or typing.

[RamonaQ]

For my dyslexic son, Verticy Grammar/ Composition was wonderful. I loved having it all planned out for me...It is based on the Diana Hansbury King Writing SKills books.

[Faithr]

I don't think the writing program should be based on whether your child is dyslexic or not. I think it depends on what his learning style is. The IEW program is for a child who is a very concrete thinker who needs step by step instruction. Someone who really needs help getting his words out. If your son just has trouble reading and spelling but is great at dictating to you and can type out things pretty easily than IEW might be too broken down and too concrete. My daughter is currently doing IEW and while I do think it is helping her, she really doesn't like it. We are just doing it because it is part of our Aquinas Learning program. Personally my kids enjoyed SWB's Writing with Ease much more. We did that last year and the year before and my kids actually found it fun.

[AimeeM]

I don't think the writing program should be based on whether your child is dyslexic or not. I think it depends on what his learning style is. The IEW program is for a child who is a very concrete thinker who needs step by step instruction. Someone who really needs help getting his words out. If your son just has trouble reading and spelling but is great at dictating to you and can type out things pretty easily than IEW might be too broken down and too concrete. My daughter is currently doing IEW and while I do think it is helping her, she really doesn't like it. We are just doing it because it is part of our Aquinas Learning program. Personally my kids enjoyed SWB's Writing with Ease much more. We did that last year and the year before and my kids actually found it fun.

 

We've tried WWE several times and it was a flop - which I've heard is common for dyslexic. Her dyslexia is very much a consideration for us; it tends to dictate almost everything we try regarding language arts. Of course, her particular presentation is taken into account - she is a visual learner, advanced in maths and sciences; she has working memory problems (working steadily in prealgebra but still hasn't memorized her tables, for example), still spells phonetically, can't seem to memorize anything but her favorite song lyrics, and can't compose a paragraph to save her life.

My dd reads well, but spells horribly (which is why we will use Apples and Pears for spelling).

I would like something that doesn't make her hate writing more than she already does, lol. If that exists :p

[AimeeM]

For my dyslexic son, Verticy Grammar/ Composition was wonderful. I loved having it all planned out for me...It is based on the Diana Hansbury King Writing SKills books.

 

I just remembered this program. Definitely a front runner. The descriptions of levels seems a bit vague to me. If you've used the program for a while, could you give a better description of pre-reqs for each level than the site gives?

[RamonaQ]

I just remembered this program. Definitely a front runner. The descriptions of levels seems a bit vague to me. If you've used the program for a while, could you give a better description of pre-reqs for each level than the site gives?

 

You can do an assessment, and they will place you in the appropriate level. Likewise, you can call and ask your questions directly (instead of depending on my faulty memory). They are very kind and helpful during the entire process.

[PeterPan]

nt

[AimeeM]

I'd do WT2 in 7th and go into WWS1 in 8th. Also try to work in some short compositions into her regular school work. Aside from the kind you normally think of, they can also be creative (captain's log of a ship during a history event, a play about an event, whatever) or something simple like 1-2 sentence chapter summaries from a target book each week. Just pick some things like that to try to ramp her writing up. We also did a lot of mind-mapping of articles in 7th, and that was VERY worthwhile. You could put your energy entirely there if you want. Find articles that are engaging to her, say from Muse magazine or God's World News (or I suppose WTM lists if you must, haha) and have her map them out on a whiteboard, paper, ipad, or software. Then, when she gets proficient at that, you introduce writing summaries from those mindmaps.

 

If you do those and WT2, I think she'd be more than ready for WWS1 the following year. If you know you're keeping her home and not sending her off somewhere, then making progress is adequate. If you've got to get her ready to hit some classes in 9th somewhere, then you've got a different scenario.

She does need to be ready for a private prep school in 9th.

Would your sequence still work knowing that, or no?

Keeping in mind that the prep school she will be attending (Catholic) does have a special class for those with MILD dyslexia, so if *all* she can't do is write up to par with her peers at the school, so long as it isn't *significant*, she would still place into the school (entrance exam required). Mildly behind in writing wouldn't break her exam.

[Heathermomster]

IEW or Verticy...

[FairProspects]

For Verticy, the grammar is way easy!! My ds placed into Yellow because of the grammar, and it was a huge mistake. We need to go back to orange, so just keep that in mind if she is at all good at grammar (which my ds is because it is just patterns in words). Gauge placement by the writing comp in Verticy, not the grammar.

 

In our experience, the placement counselors are not great with 2E kids (they seemed shocked a kid could be good at grammar and still struggle with composition) and the return policy completely stinks, so just do your best to get the right placement the first time around.

[Pen]

The ones I'd consider for various reasons, each being very different than the others are:

Bravewriter (I thought the online class expensive for what it is, but so is Verticy, and it might be that Bravewriter would lead better to liking writing and that the online part could help jumpstart her),

IEW,

Diana Hanbury King's Writing Skills

6 Trait writing

and maybe Killgallon (sp?)

 

I would also suggest getting science or other such materials with a writing component. This might not help meet the state requirement, but might help the actual process.

 

My son will be taking the OAKS writing exam soon, and on the online website, I found a bunch of writing prompts, and samples of student writing for 5th and 7th grade that they considered high, medium, low, etc. for help preparing for that exam. Seeing examples of other student writing that was considered "high" and the analysis of why it was scored as high, compared with what was considered "low" was a big help to my son in understanding what is expected. Maybe that would help your daughter too. If interested google something like "OAKS writing samples".

[RamonaQ]

 

In our experience, the placement counselors are not great with 2E kids (they seemed shocked a kid could be good at grammar and still struggle with composition) and the return policy completely stinks, so just do your best to get the right placement the first time around.

 

I wonder if something has changed since with my 2E kid they were very, very helpful.

[Alessandra]

You might want to look at 6 + 1 Traits of Writing. It is formulaic in a good sense, meaning it breaks down wring skills into categories that a child (or teacher) can easily comprehend. There are some wonderful Evan Moor workbooks, Daily 6 Trait Writing, that will make *your* life easier.

 

I wouldn't suggest this program for dc who are free thinkers, very creative. But if dc want guidance, rules/rubrics to help them, it could be a good fit. BTW, there is LOTS of the web about 6 Trait writing.

[Pen]

The OAKS exam I mentioned above is 6 Trait based and a way OP can look at some of that for free. I don't find 6 Trait writing a problem for creative free-thinkers. Formula type writing like a 5 paragraph essay with topic sentence etc. as often taught these days gets only a middling grade in 6 Trait. The problem with 6 Trait that I see is that it does not give a lot of help in the how to get going in the first place. For that, something like IEW that gives exactly what to write about, or Bravewriter that helps learn how to generate freewriting ideas can be of help. But I have never used Evan Moor--maybe that goes more into idea generation.

 

The OP's child may be at a "Jot it Down" (in Bravewriter jargon) stage where composition skills can be practiced with an adult to scribe.

 

BTW, my dyslexic ds will say "I can't" unless/until pushed with help too, at which point, when he finally learns that he can he feels very proud of himself.

[Pen]

...

Right now, she can do "concrete" writing like outlines, but can't even write a paragraph, nor can she seem to remember to indent paragraphs. She is struggling to identify topic sentences, etc.

I suppose I *could* really accelerate in those areas and have her ready for something more formal next year, but I can promise this will result in her hating writing even more than she already does (which is a significant dislike even now).

*sigh*

 

You don't necessarily need to have spelling, indenting, topic sentences etc. at all prior to learning to work on the composition aspects of writing. You certainly don't need those to start Bravewriter, for example. And IEW starts with teaching its own outline system and goes from there.

[swellmomma]

My kids don't have dyslexia, they have other learning issues, but we have been using both meaningful composition and WWE. I am using WWE to build up their narrations and dictations which they struggle with. and then Meaningful composition for the actuall writing instruction. We are doing level 4+ book I right now, it went through 6 weeks of grammar and then sentences, followed by paragraphs. Ds14 is just finishing up the section on paragraphs and dd13 is ready to move on to the next step, which is actually outlining. By the end of the level they will be writing basic 5 paragraph reports/essays. Then we move into book II and expand further.

[SailorMom]

We're using IEW this year for the first time and I am kicking myself for not starting it years ago.

DS still has to be reminded to indent, capitalize, punctuate.... spell.... etc. We're still working on complete sentences (diagramming is helping.... maybe). He just doesn't see any of it.

I've decided to work on the composition side kinda separate from mechanics - otherwise we would probably never get to composition, lol. IEW is very concrete and has been working well for him. I have seen definite improvement over the course of the school year.

I have him write without worrying about the mechanics at first. If he doesn't catch them, we just fix them after (I use a highlighter to point them out). Multiple drafts may be involved in even simple paragraphs.

I've also noticed Key Word Outlining has helped his study skills and reading comprehension. I have him KWO his physics book as he reads....

It isn't a magic bullet, but it is working better than anything else I've tried.

[AimeeM]

We're using IEW this year for the first time and I am kicking myself for not starting it years ago.

DS still has to be reminded to indent, capitalize, punctuate.... spell.... etc. We're still working on complete sentences (diagramming is helping.... maybe). He just doesn't see any of it.

I've decided to work on the composition side kinda separate from mechanics - otherwise we would probably never get to composition, lol. IEW is very concrete and has been working well for him. I have seen definite improvement over the course of the school year.

I have him write without worrying about the mechanics at first. If he doesn't catch them, we just fix them after (I use a highlighter to point them out). Multiple drafts may be involved in even simple paragraphs.

I've also noticed Key Word Outlining has helped his study skills and reading comprehension. I have him KWO his physics book as he reads....

It isn't a magic bullet, but it is working better than anything else I've tried.

 

What would I need to buy for iew?

[SailorMom]

This is all I've purchased....

 

http://www.excellenc...ting.com/twss-d

 

Also - we have full sized white boards and we write together a LOT on them. He does really well this way. We outline a paragraph, and then rewrite it together using all of the "dress-ups" sentence openers....

[AimeeM]

This is all I've purchased....

 

http://www.excellenc...ting.com/twss-d

 

Also - we have full sized white boards and we write together a LOT on them. He does really well this way. We outline a paragraph, and then rewrite it together using all of the "dress-ups" sentence openers....

 

What is the upgrade to the combo student/teacher package?

 

Also, does anyone have experience with the Fix It grammar program they list?

[Pen]

What is the upgrade to the combo student/teacher package?

 

Also, does anyone have experience with the Fix It grammar program they list?

 

 

Not their Fix It, but this year we are using a quick paragraph per day that needs editing, which is rather like Fix It.

 

The IEW combo gives TWSS for the parent and a an SWI (student writing intensive) for the child. Having the SWI makes it a lot easier to do the program.

 

A big thing to ask as between IEW and Bravewriter is would your dd do better with a program that tells exactly what to do (IEW), or one that allows her own interests and voice to emerge (Bravewriter). I think IEW is wonderful, but my son ended up really taking off more with the freewriting approach of Bravewriter. From there he was able to go into the 6 Trait method to get pieces revised and improved. Both IEW and Bravewriter separate mechanics from composition, but in very different ways. Each has a lot of information on their websites to get a feeling for what they are like. Each teaches the parent to focus on what is good and working in a piece and work upwards from there, to be a coach, and perhaps editor when that is desired.

[AimeeM]

Not their Fix It, but this year we are using a quick paragraph per day that needs editing, which is rather like Fix It.

 

The IEW combo gives TWSS for the parent and a an SWI (student writing intensive) for the child. Having the SWI makes it a lot easier to do the program.

 

A big thing to ask as between IEW and Bravewriter is would your dd do better with a program that tells exactly what to do (IEW), or one that allows her own interests and voice to emerge (Bravewriter). I think IEW is wonderful, but my son ended up really taking off more with the freewriting approach of Bravewriter. From there he was able to go into the 6 Trait method to get pieces revised and improved. Both IEW and Bravewriter separate mechanics from composition, but in very different ways. Each has a lot of information on their websites to get a feeling for what they are like. Each teaches the parent to focus on what is good and working in a piece and work upwards from there, to be a coach, and perhaps editor when that is desired.

Does Bravewriter allow the child's interests to shine through WHILE providing VERY explicit direction in mechanics and *how* to write?

[Pen]

Bravewriter has a lot of different parts. The Writer's Jungle tells the parent to deal with revision and editing late in the writing of a piece--after the ideas are generated (after research into the subject as necessary) and the freewriting is done. Both BW and IEW share the belief that a child will learn grammar and mechanics better by writing than by working on those in isolation. But BW starts with the child's own freewriting and works toward gradual refinement, whereas IEW gives passages starting with just a paragraph (or if you don't get the SWI, then you have to find suitable passages to use) for the child to rewrite in various ways, using terms like "which clause" to work on sentence combining for complex sentences and so on.

 

If you also do the parts of Bravewriter that include copywork and dictation, and perhaps even take the parent's class that addresses those things for parents who may be dealing with dc who have learning challenges like dyslexia, then I think you would be addressing mechanics more explicitly that way too. But I didn't do those parts and so cannot speak to it for certain.

 

Willingness to work on revising and mechanics was greatly increased for my ds by having a subject that interested him. We also worked around his difficulties by, for example, letting him dictate parts to me, and parts into a recorder, then he worked on the typewriter. If we work on handwriting that will be separate from composition. Not one word of his 14 page research paper done last semester was handwritten since that is a weak point.

 

I thought IEW seemed amazing and wonderful. (And same for WWE--but WWE was not good for ds, and I hear is often not for dyslexics.) Some kids thrive with IEW and love doing it. My son did some work from it, and I thought it helpful, when he did it, I could see gradual progress--but it was a battle to get him to do it, and sometimes he would do it, but just going through the motions and then not much benefit came of it. The huge breakthrough and change from being an extremely reluctant writer to not terribly reluctant for him came along with using at least parts of the BW methods--and an online class in BW.

 

And being willing to do more writing ... well, practice leads to improvement, leads to increased confidence, leads to more practice.... The spiral started going upward quite quickly instead of staying on a path of very very sloooooooooooooow gains forward. Now we are on a 6 Trait program (Ruth Culham's), but use freewriting a la BW to get past the blank white page.

 

All of these deal with mechanics and the explicit "how to's" in their own ways, from different angles and with different emphases. I think the main issue here may be finding what will actually work and be a good fit for your particular child. If your child already writes a lot and enjoys doing so, but it needs a great deal of work to make it better writing, then I think you might want to try Ruth Culham's middle school program directly and see if that helps get things revised and edited to a higher level. If your child would be happy taking someone else's writing and restating it in her own words while practicing the mechanics, then try IEW. If your child is reluctant to write at all, or getting into a bad emotional state about it--which is what I thought your post had indicated--then you might want to try BW. You might also want to try more than one program as many of us have. Particularly with youngers coming along behind they would probably end up with some use over the years.

[AimeeM]

Thank you so much for this reply!!!

Autumn sincerely HATES writing. Her grammar in isolation is okay, but not in writing. I think we'll go with Bravewriter.

Bravewriter has a lot of different parts. The Writer's Jungle tells the parent to deal with revision and editing late in the writing of a piece--after the ideas are generated (after research into the subject as necessary) and the freewriting is done. Both BW and IEW share the belief that a child will learn grammar and mechanics better by writing than by working on those in isolation. But BW starts with the child's own freewriting and works toward gradual refinement, whereas IEW gives passages starting with just a paragraph (or if you don't get the SWI, then you have to find suitable passages to use) for the child to rewrite in various ways, using terms like "which clause" to work on sentence combining for complex sentences and so on.

 

If you also do the parts of Bravewriter that include copywork and dictation, and perhaps even take the parent's class that addresses those things for parents who may be dealing with dc who have learning challenges like dyslexia, then I think you would be addressing mechanics more explicitly that way too. But I didn't do those parts and so cannot speak to it for certain.

 

Willingness to work on revising and mechanics was greatly increased for my ds by having a subject that interested him. We also worked around his difficulties by, for example, letting him dictate parts to me, and parts into a recorder, then he worked on the typewriter. If we work on handwriting that will be separate from composition. Not one word of his 14 page research paper done last semester was handwritten since that is a weak point.

 

I thought IEW seemed amazing and wonderful. (And same for WWE--but WWE was not good for ds, and I hear is often not for dyslexics.) Some kids thrive with IEW and love doing it. My son did some work from it, and I thought it helpful, when he did it, I could see gradual progress--but it was a battle to get him to do it, and sometimes he would do it, but just going through the motions and then not much benefit came of it. The huge breakthrough and change from being an extremely reluctant writer to not terribly reluctant for him came along with using at least parts of the BW methods--and an online class in BW.

 

And being willing to do more writing ... well, practice leads to improvement, leads to increased confidence, leads to more practice.... The spiral started going upward quite quickly instead of staying on a path of very very sloooooooooooooow gains forward. Now we are on a 6 Trait program (Ruth Culham's), but use freewriting a la BW to get past the blank white page.

 

All of these deal with mechanics and the explicit "how to's" in their own ways, from different angles and with different emphases. I think the main issue here may be finding what will actually work and be a good fit for your particular child. If your child already writes a lot and enjoys doing so, but it needs a great deal of work to make it better writing, then I think you might want to try Ruth Culham's middle school program directly and see if that helps get things revised and edited to a higher level. If your child would be happy taking someone else's writing and restating it in her own words while practicing the mechanics, then try IEW. If your child is reluctant to write at all, or getting into a bad emotional state about it--which is what I thought your post had indicated--then you might want to try BW. You might also want to try more than one program as many of us have. Particularly with youngers coming along behind they would probably end up with some use over the years.

[Pen]

Okay! I hope it works for you/her! Along with the book, do consider an online class: I was frustrated with the class (thought the early part went too slowly and the later part could have used more time), but in retrospect am really glad we did do it. I went for both simultaneously because I felt ds needed and was ready for a major jumpstart. And the book goes on to steps beyond what the online course covers, as well as more detail including for the expanding, revisions, mechanics, and editing stages.

 

Also, where bad feelings about writing have developed, it can help just to have someone else giving assignments--so you get to be the buddy, helper and not the ogre for a while! And seeing how the teacher responds to the kids writing to try to elicit more from them or making suggestions for improvement, but without upsetting them, can be extremely helpful. (I had at first thought she didn't say anything of much use, but the real use was seeing that the little bit she said did not dampen them, which was probably more important to just keep encouraging a bit at a time rather than to have some brilliant insight, or to mention too much so that they got frustrated.... and I think it helped me to realize that.) But if you do so, do it when you can really focus on that as main priority. Anyway the online course with a focus on just that except for math for a few weeks, did give that initial jumpstart that began that upward spiral--I think far better and faster than the book alone would have done.

 

Also, we were lucky that my son came up with Viking longships as his initial topic since that turned out to be very interesting and led to that long paper over the rest of the semester. But I also helped this forward by getting him info on Vikings, PBS movies, helping find websites, getting lots of books out from library on the subject, etc., even visiting some modern sailboats to look at their construction, hull and sail shape and keels, compared to what we were seeing about the Viking boats, so that he could get into it and have something substantial to write about. I think that sort of thing would make a big difference whether you work just from the book or take an online class. Another boy in the class chose an endangered bird as his topic, but then it turned out he did not have a lot to say about it because he did not know much other than that it was endangered, so his mom similarly helped him do a lot of research, and the family visited a sanctuary for this bird and then the boy's writing blossomed a lot. It could even help if shortly before starting BW you do or read about something interesting that you think might then lead her to choose that as a topic.

[Crimson Wife]

TWJ is VERY "big picture" and not at all an explicit program. I consider it self-education for me rather than an actual curriculum for my kids. If you want a systematic program, I would go with something else.

[EKS]

If I had it to do over again, I would try Step Up to Writing.

[herekittykitty]

I recently purchased Diana Hanbury King's Writing Skills and I think it looks great. Very explicit and easy to implement. It's not an expensive book, so it would be a great option for someone who didn't want to spend a lot.

[Pen]

TWJ is VERY "big picture" and not at all an explicit program. I consider it self-education for me rather than an actual curriculum for my kids. If you want a systematic program, I would go with something else.

 

If you (OP) do go with TWJ, and especially if you get just book, not an online class, be sure to read the How to Use this Course section at the beginning. It is set up to read a chapter, then you as parent do the exercise for the chapter, then you lead your child through it. If you do the online Kidswrite Basic, you and your child will be led through the exercises of the first parts of the TWJ together, from the description game through to a completed, revised, and edited (with your help) first writing piece (paragraph to short essay length) by your child.

 

I disagree with it not being systematic. Leaving out the details of the kid-friendly how to's at each step, the system is: freewrite, narrow in on topic, expand with more freewriting as needed till there is a good bit of material to work with, revise, mop-up edit for mechanics, publish (that is, share it with someone else, and take the time to glory in the completion of a written piece). Take enough breaks and time for things like "poetry tea times" and so on that writing does not become onerous and awful, and perhaps even comes to seem special. It assumes the child can talk and starts with the ability to talk about a subject being the basis for the freewrite. If the child is not ready to go brain to pen directly, one can use other means to get from the child's brain to words on paper, such as dictation. As I said, I think it was a good thing that I took the class even though at the time I found it frustrating, and did not just try to implement the book. Maybe my sense of the systematic process would have been less clear had I just read the book. Also I had read some on the adult freewriting methods sources this is based on, such as Peter Elbow and NAtalie Goldberg (is that right name? It sounds off.) So maybe that too made it more clear.

 

 

 

 

BTW: I have 2 Writing Skills workbooks and mentioned them also in my first list as another possibility because I know they are certainly very explicit, and I have heard that they help some dyslexic children and are basis for Verticy, I've heard.

 

They have some good writing prompts at the back--which I am now using along with the 6 Trait program. For example, one that asked about surviving for a month shipwrecked on an island with only the contents of one's backpack recently led to a good fictional narrative essay by my son. But getting to be able to write that essay was Bravewriter plus 6 Trait methods, not WS itself.

 

I got them sort of on the basis suggested to you--not that expensive, and so forth. But I think my ds was able to do the exercises and get nothing whatever out of them (or virtually nothing). It was sort of brainless busy work. And certainly did not lead him to enjoy writing time--there are a lot of angry scribbles all over some of the pages and I recall the books being thrown in disgust. They did not turn him into a child who could write at or above grade level, just someone who had completed a writing workbook, or at least most of one. I think in part he is aware of what makes good writing enough that he can tell that the standard approach of topic sentence, supporting sentences, conclusion does not really fit what he reads and finds good, so even if he did well with WS, the result was lackluster, no matter how many "strong" verbs and "good" adjectives got tossed in. Hence frustration. But that was our experience, and my son is not only dyslexic, he is also gifted, so both sides of him need to be taken into account.

 

The workbooks could easily and inexpensively help you with your state's legal requirement for sure. And again, the issue is what will work for your particular child.

[Heathermomster]

Well, I am very interested in how this writing adventure works for you and your DD. Please update us when you can and tell us how everything works out.

 

 

[Crimson Wife]

I disagree with it not being systematic. Leaving out the details of the kid-friendly how to's at each step, the system is: freewrite, narrow in on topic, expand with more freewriting as needed till there is a good bit of material to work with, revise, mop-up edit for mechanics, publish (that is, share it with someone else, and take the time to glory in the completion of a written piece). Take enough breaks and time for things like "poetry tea times" and so on that writing does not become onerous and awful, and perhaps even comes to seem special. It assumes the child can talk and starts with the ability to talk about a subject being the basis for the freewrite.

 

But it doesn't actually teach the kid HOW to write the step-by-step-by-step way a program like WWS, IEW, or EPS' The Paragraph Book series does. It's all very "big picture" and IMHO loosey-goosey. There may be a routine in TWJ, but it's not at all systematic to my mind.

 

Different strokes for different folks, but while I like TWJ as self-education for me, it doesn't work as an actual curriculum for my kids.

[Pen]

 

But it doesn't actually teach the kid HOW to write the step-by-step-by-step way a program like WWS, IEW, or EPS' The Paragraph Book series does. It's all very "big picture" and IMHO loosey-goosey. There may be a routine in TWJ, but it's not at all systematic to my mind.

 

Different strokes for different folks, but while I like TWJ as self-education for me, it doesn't work as an actual curriculum for my kids.

 

 

Is your 10 year old successfully doing WWS (by which I assume you mean Writing With Skill by SWB) at this time? If so, what was the "learning challenge" she had/has, and what was/were the curriculum used that worked to get her there?

[Crimson Wife]

Is your 10 year old successfully doing WWS (by which I assume you mean Writing With Skill by SWB) at this time? If so, what was the "learning challenge" she had/has, and what was/were the curriculum used that worked to get her there?

 

She most likely has CAPD but possibly ADD and/or working memory issues (or possibly some combination of the three, as we have yet to get a full neuropsych eval to tease apart her quirks). She did very well with the first part of WWS1 but then it got too difficult so I had to shelve it. She can write fine so long as she is given very clear guidance for it. MCT's Paragraph Town was too open-ended for her and freewrites a la TWJ lead to tears ("I don't know what to write about!")

 

The writing programs that have worked best for her so far are The Paragraph Book series and then Paragraph Writing Made Easy. There was a fair amount of overlap between PWME and the beginning of WWS1, which is why I think she was successful with that section. I do plan to pick back up WWS1 when she is a bit older. This fall I am going to try IEW.

[Pen]

She most likely has CAPD but possibly ADD and/or working memory issues (or possibly some combination of the three, as we have yet to get a full neuropsych eval to tease apart her quirks). She did very well with the first part of WWS1 but then it got too difficult so I had to shelve it. She can write fine so long as she is given very clear guidance for it. MCT's Paragraph Town was too open-ended for her and freewrites a la TWJ lead to tears ("I don't know what to write about!")

 

The writing programs that have worked best for her so far are The Paragraph Book series and then Paragraph Writing Made Easy. There was a fair amount of overlap between PWME and the beginning of WWS1, which is why I think she was successful with that section. I do plan to pick back up WWS1 when she is a bit older. This fall I am going to try IEW.

 

 

I know CAPD is sometimes called "dyslexia of the ears" and so there is some relation there. Yet in terms of what seems to work for them, our dc sound almost like opposites in what helps/leads to tears!

 

In re the TWJ in case OP does it or if your were to give it a try again, my son had a sense of what he was writing about before he started the freewriting technique--he did not freewrite his way into a topic, but rather used freewriting to get past the awful blank page stage. Since he does have things he is interested in, he has been happier to have a way to write about his own interests, and is more led to tears by being told to write about things he has no interest in.

[AimeeM]

 

 

I know CAPD is sometimes called "dyslexia of the ears" and so there is some relation there. Yet in terms of what seems to work for them, our dc sound almost like opposites in what helps/leads to tears!

 

In re the TWJ in case OP does it or if your were to give it a try again, my son had a sense of what he was writing about before he started the freewriting technique--he did not freewrite his way into a topic, but rather used freewriting to get past the awful blank page stage. Since he does have things he is interested in, he has been happier to have a way to write about his own interests, and is more led to tears by being told to write about things he has no interest in.

My daughter would look at the blank page and melt without being given direction for a specific assignment, lol. She doesn't have a creative writing bone in her body.

[Pen]

My daughter would look at the blank page and melt without being given direction for a specific assignment, lol. She doesn't have a creative writing bone in her body.

 

 

 

I don't know if Bravewriter would be good for her or not, but I now think strongly if you do do it, it would be most likely to work if you start with the online kidswrite basic class. They are very good at going from something like (noting that she is doing ballet and McHenry's brain study this year), say:

 

ballet dance class uh yuck what should I write I hate this ycuk uh twirl tutus point

 

or

 

brain neurons synapses

 

to a finished piece that the child can look at and feel good about in around 3 weeks.

 

 

The teacher starts by writing back (in another color) something like, "For someone like me who doesn't know much about the brain, could you tell me more about synapses? What are synapses and how do they work? Are they related to neurons? Are they only in the brain or would be find them in other parts of the body?" While also perhaps pointing out that all three words are very good specific words which is important in clear writing.

 

 

Or for ballet perhaps, something like " It sounds like you know a lot about ballet. I've always wondered about what dancing on point would be like, could you tell me about that?" Also pointing out that twirl and tutus next to each other is an example of alliteration which writers use.

 

Anyway, questions that come out of what the child wrote, and that tend to evoke a response by way of communicating a subject of interest to the child, so that bit by bit as the child responds, something gets written.

 

Certainly if you do it, if it were my child, I'd be prepared to suggest one of those two subjects and then let another subject supersede those if it were more enticing, but not to let the child flounder in a sea of nothingness. I'd probably say something like, "How about writing something about the brain or ballet?" Then if she said, "I'd rather write about ____." I'd say, sounds like an excellent idea. Next for, "I don't know what to write." I'd say, what is the first word that comes to mind? And then whatever it was, okay good, jot it down (or if scribing, I'd jot it down). Then, what other word comes to mind when you think of ________ .

 

It is a method by which if you can get just a few words on a topic of knowledge/interest, from the child, the ice is broken and it seemed to work well for the kids from there. If you cannot get even a few words on a topic, then I think you write to the online teacher and request help.

[Pen]

 

Here is a sample of the actual process--this was at about the 3rd time going more into the subject (with ds's permission, name removed). The blue parts are by the online teacher, the grey and red parts by my son:

 

 

viking longships

 

 

 

Some are short and are used for going down rivers. Long ones have been found, the longest 118 feet.

 

 

 

 

Wow, I bet that was exciting to find these! I'm curious: where were they found? Who "found" them? Were there others discovered that were smaller? Which rivers were they used on? For someone not familiar with what a Viking longship was ... what exactly did the Vikings use these for?

Good to know. Were oars the only way that the longships were "powered"? No there main power was the wind.

 

 

Were the square sails really big or ...? Any idea what they were made out of or if they had a design or pattern?

 

 

 

They could tack with the square sails

, unlike most square sails which could only sail with the wind. Made lightweight.

 

This sounds like some sailing lingo ... for someone not familiar with this term, could you explain what it is? How it's done? tacking allowed the viking to go toward the wind unike Columbus's ships that could only go in the drection of the wind.

 

 

 

 

[Name ] (10)

 

Nice work on this freewrite, [Name]! You're off to a good start. I've jotted down a variety of questions for expansion. See which ones you'd like to answer in your next freewrite. Looking forward to learning more!

[AimeeM]

Wow! That looks really neat!

How would I sign up for the Kidswrite class (I didn't see it on the site)? Do I also need TWJ if we go with this?

 

Here is a sample of the actual process--this was at about the 3rd time going more into the subject (with ds's permission, name removed). The blue parts are by the online teacher, the grey and red parts by my son:

 

viking longships

 

 

 

Some are short and are used for going down rivers. Long ones have been found, the longest 118 feet.

 

 

 

 

Wow, I bet that was exciting to find these! I'm curious: where were they found? Who "found" them? Were there others discovered that were smaller? Which rivers were they used on? For someone not familiar with what a Viking longship was ... what exactly did the Vikings use these for?

Good to know. Were oars the only way that the longships were "powered"? No there main power was the wind.

 

 

Were the square sails really big or ...? Any idea what they were made out of or if they had a design or pattern?

 

 

 

 

 

They could tack with the square sails

, unlike most square sails which could only sail with the wind. Made lightweight.

 

This sounds like some sailing lingo ... for someone not familiar with this term, could you explain what it is? How it's done? tacking allowed the viking to go toward the wind unike Columbus's ships that could only go in the drection of the wind.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Name ] (10)

 

Nice work on this freewrite, [Name]! You're off to a good start. I've jotted down a variety of questions for expansion. See which ones you'd like to answer in your next freewrite. Looking forward to learning more!

 

[Pen]

I was going to post what it was like at the end of 3 weeks working on the project bit by bit--at which point your reply arrived. Would you like the end product too?

 

I'll post then see your message and reply to that.

[AimeeM]

I was going to post what it was like at the end of 3 weeks working on the project bit by bit--at which point your reply arrived. Would you like the end product too?

 

I'll post then see your message and reply to that.

 

I'd love to see the end product!

[Pen]

Wow! That looks really neat!

How would I sign up for the Kidswrite class (I didn't see it on the site)? Do I also need TWJ if we go with this?

 

 

You do not need TWJ to do the online class. I did get it and it has some parts that go beyond at least that first level of online class. But it is definitely not needed for the class, and a lot that is in the book relevant to the class will be posted for class members so that you can copy it and keep it.

 

There is a logo that shows a computer monitor looking thing in bluish with a white swirl (at least as it looks to me) that says "online classes" -- for me it was middlish of the page a few inches down from the top. And also over on the right it says that the sign-up time for the next group of online classes starts March 4th, I believe. They may not have the sign-up forms available to see yet if it is between sign up times. The calendar should be here. If you are having trouble, email Julie Bogart who had a contact come up at the beginning along with an offer for getting a e-newsletter. Our teacher was Christine Gable who is now teaching other classes, not the basic one. I would think having two teachers as it now appears to have would be better than just one, but know nothing about either of those.

 

We did it at the start of this school year and I signed up on first day, which was done by computer, but I think I paid later by check because I have paypal troubles. The class did fill up fairly soon with a waiting list, but the fall session is supposed to fill the quickest. People who had spots were offered a free subscription to one of the BW products if they would let themselves be bumped (reminds me of airlines). I kept my spot because I had already primed my son for the idea that we were about to do homeschool with an intensive emphasis on writing, and it would have been a let down not to.

[Pen]

I'd love to see the end product!

 

What was best about this end product to me was not the quality of the writing so much as that he felt good about it and wanted to go on with more (and did do so, continuing to write about various other aspects of the Vikings till he had done his 14 pages, including pictures, paper.) He had been hating writing and saying he couldn't and so on, so this was a big deal for him.

 

(I'm editing because it did have paragraph breaks, but they did not come through from my file copy.)

 

 

 

 

Viking Longships

 

 

The Viking longships were light weight and the bottom design and square sails allowed them to skim the wave surface. Viking longships had flat bottoms so they could go in shallow water (why we call them longships is because longboat like it says in most books came long after the Viking time). They did have a little bit of a keel, which is a stabilizer on the bottom.

 

A 118 foot long Viking longship was found by Danish archaeologists in Denmark in 2006. This one is the biggest that they have found so far, but there are some big ones like one was 98 feet long!

 

Some were a lot shorter, the shortest that were used in rivers were only 10-20 feet long! The longer and larger ships were used in large bodies of water such as the ocean.

 

The Vikings made the longships out of wood and iron. The nails, rivets, and keel were iron. The best wood was huge old oak trees because it was strong. They would nail huge spikes of wood in the end of the tree to split the trunk in two, and then one tree made two boards. They ran out of good oak because they only made 2 boards out of one tree, so, for example, 30 boards would take 15 trees.

 

They also ran out of good oak longships because when a chief died they would put their chief inside of the longship in a tent with all of his belongings and burn it. Or sometimes when he died, they would put the chief in a tent on the longship with all of his belongings and push the longship out in the water and burn it. And also in storms or battles they sunk.

 

They ran out of the oak because their forests got thin, so they had to make the longships out of pine, which wasn’t as strong or durable as oak was. The pine didn’t last as long so the pine longships broke down easily.

 

The Vikings had pigs, sheep, goats, and horses. And they brought their animals with them when they went places to settle (not when raiding), and the animals were very destructive because the horses grazed and the sheep and goats grazed in their own patterns and the pigs rooted up small trees.

 

The front and back of the longships were the same so they could go forwards and backwards. So if they were coming to a rocky area, instead of having to crash, they could just turn around, use the oars and just go backward.

 

Their main power was the wind. They used sails when it was windy and when it was no wind they used the oars. And they used oars for going down rivers.

 

And they could tack!

 

Tacking means to turn so you are heading up into the wind, so the wind is first coming from one side of the boat and then the other side. so when they are tacking they zig-zag into the wind. Tacking allowed the Vikings to go toward the wind unlike Columbus's square sales that couldn’t tack, but Columbus’s ships had triangular sails that could tack.

 

The Vikings also probably entertained themselves on the long voyages on the longships. They could have sung, told stories and told myths. These all could have been entertainment while they were at sea. Such a story follows in the next section.

[Pen]

Okay, I think I got the paragraphs as he had them. I only just now notice the "square sales" instead of "sails"--I think that must have gotten by both me and Christine till now. There are some other things that were deliberately left because they were his voice and the way he wanted to write it. Having a happy kid who wanted to write more was a lot more important than a perfect paper. And so too there was a time to just be done and stop and not go on to the point that it became too much. Or, to put it another way, sometimes, the better is the enemy of the good enough. My brother was an audience at one point and started to make criticisms, and I told him, no, we are done, now is the time to admire it. ;)