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Planning for fall......Geometry?


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I’m starting to plan for fall so I am ready to look at curricula when our local homeschool conferences roll around. For those of you doing algebra 1 this year, what are you planning to do next? Are you going on to geometry or algebra 2? If geometry, what curriculum are you planning to use?

 

My ds 12 is currently doing Lial’s Introductory Algebra and LOF Beginning Algebra. We started with Jacobs, but that just wasn’t a good fit so we switched to Lial’s, which seems to be working out OK though we occasionally have rough days. As of now, I’m not sure whether to attribute those days to a general lack of understanding or puberty brain. If he finishes Lial’s with a good understanding of algebra I plan to move on the geometry in the fall. Otherwise, we may do another beginning algebra curriculum (like AoPS) to address any areas he is having problems with.

 

The LOF recommended sequence is algebra 1, algebra 2 and then geometry, which is not the typical progression I have seen with most curricula. I’m not sure what I’ll do with that. My son really enjoys LOF, which we use as a supplement, so I do not want to drop it, but I don’t know if doing LOF geometry before LOF algebra 2 will be a problem. Thoughts?

 

Kim

 

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I'm researching geometry as well. We are also currently working through Lial's Intro to Agebra. I have BJU's geometry because I found the complete set at a book sale for $15. I am concerned because sometimes there are solutions and sometimes there are only answers. We have the previous addition, so I don't know if the newest is different.

 

If TT textbooks has an automatic grading Geometry program by the time we need it, I'm considering it. The price is a factor, but I like the the way they teach geometry.

 

I have seen LOF geometry and it looks pretty good. Are you concerned about the PSAT or SAT? I know you should have geometry prior to taking those tests.

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I'm researching geometry as well. We are also currently working through Lial's Intro to Agebra. I have BJU's geometry because I found the complete set at a book sale for $15. I am concerned because sometimes there are solutions and sometimes there are only answers. We have the previous addition, so I don't know if the newest is different.

 

If TT textbooks has an automatic grading Geometry program by the time we need it, I'm considering it. The price is a factor, but I like the the way they teach geometry.

 

I have seen LOF geometry and it looks pretty good. Are you concerned about the PSAT or SAT? I know you should have geometry prior to taking those tests.

 

 

I'm not concerned about the tests because I think we would finish both geometry and algebra 2 before taking the tests regardless of the order.

 

My son does not like online or computer-based classes so that really isn't an option for us. Having back-up videos, such as AoPS is OK, but not as the main teaching source.

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Is that maybe the only reason for doing Geometry before Algebra 2? For the test?

 

 

Some people, such as Jann in TX, feel that the order should be algebra 1, geometry, algebra 2 because you need strong algebra 2 skills going into pre-calc and doing the algebra 1/algebra 2/geometry sequence sets the student up for more struggles because there isn't enough algebra in geometry to keep those skills fresh. Some people do geometry alongside algebra 2, however my ds, who does not like math, probably would not enjoy having 2 math classes. You can get around that though by alternating weeks with algebra 2 and geometry, taking long to do the 2 classes. I haven't ruled that out, but it isn't my current plan.

 

I guess it depends on your general math plan/goals for your child(ren). If you plan to go on to pre-calc, then you want the algebra skills up-to-par before starting so the sequence could matter.

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Dd loves math. She will be starting AoPS geometry soon (just the text, though she's campaigning for the online class that starts next month) while also continuing with the second half of AoPS Intro to Algebra (the "algebra 2" portion).

 

If she doesn't take the online course, she will cover geometry 3 days and algebra 2 2 days in one week, then flip to 2 days of geometry and 3 days of algebra 2 the following week, etc.

 

If she takes the online course she will ONLY be doing geometry from March through August-----yes, straight through the summer :eek:

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Dd loves math. She will be starting AoPS geometry soon (just the text, though she's campaigning for the online class that starts next month) while also continuing with the second half of AoPS Intro to Algebra (the "algebra 2" portion).

 

If she doesn't take the online course, she will cover geometry 3 days and algebra 2 2 days in one week, then flip to 2 days of geometry and 3 days of algebra 2 the following week, etc.

 

If she takes the online course she will ONLY be doing geometry from March through August-----yes, straight through the summer :eek:

 

We go all summer too. :) It just makes life simplier. Anyhow, I had said in a previous post that I thought my son would rebel if I suggested 2 math courses in the fall. However, I mentioned it to him yesterday afternoon while we were walking our dogs and he said he thought it would be a good idea because it would give him more variety. So, we could take the route too.

 

I'm thinking of doing Patty Paper Geometry over the summer, or when we finish algebra 1, as a hands-on intro, and then starting geometry and algebra 2 in the fall. However, this plan is very fluid at this time. :)

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You know, dd didn't really like Patty Paper Geometry. I was sure she would since she loves hands-on activities. She called it "boring" and asked to stop in favor of AoPS Counting and Probability :rolleyes:

 

:) Interesting. It will be interesting to see what my son thinks. Just when I think I understand what he thinks and will enjoy, or not enjoy, he surprises me.

 

Kim

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I almost decided on the Alg. 1, Alg. 2, geometry sequence for my DS, but talked extensively to a math tutor friend before I made the leap. I ended up going with the traditional Alg 1, Geometry, Alg. 2 sequence based on her advice - that there is too long a gap between alg 2 and pre-calc.

We are using Discovering Geometry (Serra, Key Curriculum Press). I like how well my son is learning and the curriculum is challenging enough, but I will say - it is harder to teach as it's "discovery based". I really don't have much to compare this to, though - only my own experience in high school.

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I'm a former high school math teacher. The problem with Alg I, Geometry, Alg II is that too many kids take Geometry before they are mathematically developmentally ready. They can easily be ready for most of Geometry - but not the proofs. It's a tricky situation since 3/4 of Geometry can be handled before Alg II. But most younger Geometry students aren't ready for the proofs. I saw this in 9th graders taking honors Geometry. They were smart kids and were able to learn the rest, until the proofs. So my advice is if you do Geometry first, revisit the proofs later on. There are Geometry courses that skip proofs or go light on them. When I taught, the tech prep kids curriculum guidelines said they didn't have to do any proofs! Even the college prep kids just needed minimum exposure to them. I don't think that's appropriate though. The proofs are a VERY important part of Geometry. That type of logic and reasoning are at the core of math.

 

I haven't quite decided what to do with my oldest yet in regards to Geometry. He's doing AoPS and is almost done with the first 12 chapers of Intro to Algebra, which I consider Algebra I. We're switching courses completely and either doing Number Theory or Prob &Stat to give him a little extra time for math maturity. He did well in Alg I, but I feel it's best to give him some time for math maturity before moving into either Alg II or Geometry. As for too much time between Alg II and Pre-Calculus, there is Algebra in Geometry. Students are able to pick up any Alg II they forgot rather well in my experience. Some concepts may need to be re-taught, but it was never an issue with the mid-level kids I taught, nor the upper level. (The lower level kids had a different path and didn't get to Pre-Calculus).

 

The Alg I, Geometry, Alg II sequence can be important when it comes to standardized testing though - which is why I think schools do it - but then they water down the proofs terribly. (I always taught far more than recommended with the proofs under the category "enrichment," since the proofs are at the heart of what math is). So my advice is that if testing isn't an issue, do Alg I, Alg II, Geometry. But if it is, do Alg 1, Geometry, Alg II, then spend a couple of months on Geometry proofs. I'd rather see Geometry broken up into two courses - one for the basics and one for the proofs. Students are usually ready for the basic long before the proofs.

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We are using MUS Geometry this year and it is very light. We are doing it alongside TT Algebra 2. Over the summer we will watch the MUS Alg2 videos and only do worksheets for anything that wasn't covered in TT or any topics where he needs review. Then, next year I am considering using TT Geometry alongside MUS PreCalc. At least this is the current plan.

 

MUS Geometry takes very little time and can easily be completed alongside Algebra 2. It contains very little in the way of proofs, but is a very solid intro to terms and concepts. MUS (and some of Patty Paper Geometry) is the geometry my older two boys used in high school. They definitely covered all the geometry that was on the ACT.

 

HTH-

Mandy

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The LOF recommended sequence is algebra 1, algebra 2 and then geometry, which is not the typical progression I have seen with most curricula. I’m not sure what I’ll do with that. My son really enjoys LOF, which we use as a supplement, so I do not want to drop it, but I don’t know if doing LOF geometry before LOF algebra 2 will be a problem. Thoughts?

 

Kim

 

 

 

We use LOF exclusively but adjusted the sequence and went with the more traditional Alg1, Geo, Alg 2. The Algebra skills are needed for Pre-Calc/Trig. I was afraid my kids would have rusty Algebra skills with the other sequence making further math study difficult and possibly affecting standardized test scores negatively.

 

LOF Geometry is a great class, but has less hand holding than the other classes as there is no home companion.

 

According to my oldest (who is now doing college level math via dual enrollment) the least helpful class of the LOF sequence was the Trig course. She re-took Pre-Calc at the college level and felt that LOF did too many trig. identities and didn't spend enough time on some other topics like advanced alg. and manipulating functions. She was also slightly at a disadvantage b/c she really had no idea how to use a graphing calc. which was expected in her college level work.

 

My second child is did Alg 1 and Geo and will finish Alg 2 this year. I'm not sure whether I'll have her to LOF trig. or not. She will not be a STEM major like her older sister and will most likely need College Algebra and Stats instead as a nursing student. We may pull some selected topics from a more traditional Pre-Calc book instead and just have her do lots of SAT prep. math next year (she's a rising 10th grader).

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I haven't seen the higher levels of LOF, but I've read that there's no advanced algebra necessary to do geometry, it's just the author's opinion that geometry should be done later because it is more difficult.

 

With an advanced student, I don't think following a traditional math sequence matters nearly as much as it would with a high school student, and the order should be based on the student's interests, abilities and maturity. My DS completed algebra 2 before starting geometry. I didn't see any issues with this, because he has enough time to finish both before writing the PSAT and to review algebra between geometry and pre-calc if necessary. I can see it being an issue for schools to have to spend the first few weeks of pre-calc reviewing algebra, but at home I don't think this would pose a problem. DS has since switched to AoPS, so he'll go through Intermediate Algebra before hitting pre-calc anyway.

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Thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts and experiences. I've spent some time talking with my son this week about what he would like to do. Algebra I has been a little challenging at times, but that has mainly been because he has forgotten how to do some basic things he should have learned in pre-algebra/Saxon 8/7. We're taking algebra slowly and not moving to the next lesson until he's ready. So, we may not finish algebra I this year. :001_smile:

 

My current line of thought is that we may actually repeat/review algebra I next year, doing it alongside geometry. That will keep it fresh in his mind. I'm still working on our math plan for fall, but my current thoughts are:

- do Patty Paper Geometry after we finish algebra I as a hands-on intro to geometry.

- then, do AoPS Intro to Algebra alongside Discovering Geometry. We'll probably continue to do LOF on Fridays as

we do now, moving onto Geometry when we start Discovering Geometry.

- the following year we will do Lial's Intermediate Algebra.

 

Of course this may all fall apart as my early plans do sometimes. :glare:

 

Kim

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I'm a former high school math teacher. The problem with Alg I, Geometry, Alg II is that too many kids take Geometry before they are mathematically developmentally ready. They can easily be ready for most of Geometry - but not the proofs. It's a tricky situation since 3/4 of Geometry can be handled before Alg II. But most younger Geometry students aren't ready for the proofs. I saw this in 9th graders taking honors Geometry. They were smart kids and were able to learn the rest, until the proofs. So my advice is if you do Geometry first, revisit the proofs later on. There are Geometry courses that skip proofs or go light on them. When I taught, the tech prep kids curriculum guidelines said they didn't have to do any proofs! Even the college prep kids just needed minimum exposure to them. I don't think that's appropriate though. The proofs are a VERY important part of Geometry. That type of logic and reasoning are at the core of math.

 

I haven't quite decided what to do with my oldest yet in regards to Geometry. He's doing AoPS and is almost done with the first 12 chapers of Intro to Algebra, which I consider Algebra I. We're switching courses completely and either doing Number Theory or Prob &Stat to give him a little extra time for math maturity. He did well in Alg I, but I feel it's best to give him some time for math maturity before moving into either Alg II or Geometry. As for too much time between Alg II and Pre-Calculus, there is Algebra in Geometry. Students are able to pick up any Alg II they forgot rather well in my experience. Some concepts may need to be re-taught, but it was never an issue with the mid-level kids I taught, nor the upper level. (The lower level kids had a different path and didn't get to Pre-Calculus).

 

The Alg I, Geometry, Alg II sequence can be important when it comes to standardized testing though - which is why I think schools do it - but then they water down the proofs terribly. (I always taught far more than recommended with the proofs under the category "enrichment," since the proofs are at the heart of what math is). So my advice is that if testing isn't an issue, do Alg I, Alg II, Geometry. But if it is, do Alg 1, Geometry, Alg II, then spend a couple of months on Geometry proofs. I'd rather see Geometry broken up into two courses - one for the basics and one for the proofs. Students are usually ready for the basic long before the proofs.

 

 

 

This makes so much sense. We did Geometry in 9th grade and I remember really struggling with proofs. However, in 11th grade some of us took Trig/Analytical Geometry and even though it was not part of the coursework the better teachers always spent a few weeks going over proofs again. My teacher did not and to prove that she was a horrible teacher 85% of her students ended up in summer school. One of the good teachers taught our summer school class and when she spent a few weeks on proofs it clicked for me. I thought it was just the teacher (and I'm sure that was a big part of it) but maybe it was math maturity as well. We completed Algebra 2 in 10th grade so we had that under our belts as well.

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The Alg I, Geometry, Alg II sequence can be important when it comes to standardized testing though - which is why I think schools do it - but then they water down the proofs terribly. (I always taught far more than recommended with the proofs under the category "enrichment," since the proofs are at the heart of what math is). So my advice is that if testing isn't an issue, do Alg I, Alg II, Geometry. But if it is, do Alg 1, Geometry, Alg II, then spend a couple of months on Geometry proofs. I'd rather see Geometry broken up into two courses - one for the basics and one for the proofs. Students are usually ready for the basic long before the proofs.

 

 

Can you expand upon why a proof-based geometry course is important for a student who is never going to be taking math major courses at college? We are using Singapore Discovering Math, which does not include proofs, yet Singaporean students always excel on international math tests. I *LOATHED* proofs when I took H.S. geometry and never saw the point of having to suffer through them. If a student can solve the type of geometry problems on the SAT/ACT, what is the point of requiring proofs for the 98 % of kids who will not be math majors?

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Can you expand upon why a proof-based geometry course is important for a student who is never going to be taking math major courses at college? We are using Singapore Discovering Math, which does not include proofs, yet Singaporean students always excel on international math tests. I *LOATHED* proofs when I took H.S. geometry and never saw the point of having to suffer through them. If a student can solve the type of geometry problems on the SAT/ACT, what is the point of requiring proofs for the 98 % of kids who will not be math majors?

 

I don't know if this will help, but FWIW, I credit math proofs for the logic to think through and write concise arguments. I too hated geometry proofs. Later, when I started out writing legal briefs, I was not much of a writer from a language perspective, but what I lacked in language skills, I more than made up for in logic content. IME, visualizing the logic (as in, literally seeing the bulletpoints in my mind) results in a clearer argument. There's probably some other way to learn this type of logic, but for a person stronger in math than in language, proofs worked for me.

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My husband just finished teaching our then 14 and 16 year olds Geometry. He used a beautiful reprint of Euclid's Elements. We have a preference for using first source materials by a master when possible. The 16 year old hates math but said, after using Elements, "Finally! Someone wrote a math book I understand!" (That would be copy write 300ish BC.)

 

Both commented that proofs in Geometry helped them with Formal Logic. He did Algebra 1 then Geometry. They're both doing Formal Logic by Cothran from Memoria Press. That semester they were doing Material Logic for the then 16 year old and Traditional Logic I for the then 14 year old.

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