Help with Disciplining 4 year old

[Barefoot Explorer]

The spanking wasn't actually for not sleeping, but for kicking the bed repeatedly and not stopping when asked. The problem with playing with toys is that my son is VERY loud with his toys and his room is right next to the bedroom so it always keeps me up. I am wondering if it will help when we get bunk-beds. Maybe then he will actually stay on the bed and read. Otherwise, he will also sneak into the kitchen and try to get himself food (resulting in something getting spilled and a giant mess.) He also likes to try to get into my drawers and hide things like my phone, keys, purse contents.

[Catwoman]

He's 4. He doesn't want to take a nap. He's not sleepy at naptime. So he gets bored and he acts up.

 

Sorry to say this, but your days of a little peace and quiet while the kids nap are OVER. Your ds sounds like a smart, curious, fun little guy, and if I were you, I'd be taking advantage of the baby's naptime and using that time to give your 4yo some individual, fun attention. If you think he needs some quiet/rest time, read him a story while you cuddle on the sofa or something.

 

I don't mean to sound harsh, but after reading all of your posts, I think you are expecting way too much from a 4 year-old. He's just a little kid and he wants his mom's attention. I'm sorry if you're tired; I get that, and I really do sympathize with you. We've all been there at one point or another. But your needs can't come first right now. You can't really nap when you've got an active 4 year-old.

 

And I have to be honest. I think you are putting too much emphasis on discipline and punishment. He's only 4!

[Laura Corin]

The spanking wasn't actually for not sleeping, but for kicking the bed repeatedly and not stopping when asked. The problem with playing with toys is that my son is VERY loud with his toys and his room is right next to the bedroom so it always keeps me up. I am wondering if it will help when we get bunk-beds. Maybe then he will actually stay on the bed and read. Otherwise, he will also sneak into the kitchen and try to get himself food (resulting in something getting spilled and a giant mess.) He also likes to try to get into my drawers and hide things like my phone, keys, purse contents.

 

It's not what you want to hear, but I don't think that expecting him to lie silently while you nap is reasonable. He's four, active and inquisitive. With a lively child, the most I would expect at that age would be for him to stay quiet for long enough - perhaps with screen time if necessary - to give you time to put the baby down. I remember very clearly dozing off on the sofa while one of my sons played on the floor next to me. I didn't manage more than a minute or two of sleep at a time, but I was somewhat more refreshed at the end than at the beginning. Sorry.

 

Laura

[Guest inoubliable]

The spanking wasn't actually for not sleeping, but for kicking the bed repeatedly and not stopping when asked. The problem with playing with toys is that my son is VERY loud with his toys and his room is right next to the bedroom so it always keeps me up. I am wondering if it will help when we get bunk-beds. Maybe then he will actually stay on the bed and read. Otherwise, he will also sneak into the kitchen and try to get himself food (resulting in something getting spilled and a giant mess.) He also likes to try to get into my drawers and hide things like my phone, keys, purse contents.

 

I think you're asking a bit much of a four year old. Put a gate up for the kitchen, put your things up where he can't get them. Then it's time to engage your little guy and take advantage of his curiosity.

[Joker]

Both of my dds quit taking naps at about 2.5 yrs old, so I say you've been lucky to get a few more years out of him. Oldest quit napping basically the day I brought youngest home from the hospital. It was actually nice to have that time with just her. I would definitely quit punishing him for things he can't really control, and at four it would be hard to be expected to just lay quietly while everyone else slept.

[Shamzanne]

I highly recommend any parenting book by Kevin Leman. He is a Christian but you don't have to be a Christian to appreciate his books.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Hmmm, well I'll go at least partially against the group. :)

 

First, I agree that he is probably outgrowing his nap and it stinks because we mommies want OUR naps.

 

However, I don't think that it is unreasonable in the LEAST to expect him to be quiet and live within certain standards of behavior at four years old, even if you do doze (if you are a heavy sleeper, then don't do it). Could he watch something educational during that time to give you time for a short dozing off? For the rest of quiet time (not nap time anymore!), could he read books, do puzzles, use headphones to do abcmouse.com or something?

 

My kids have a quiet time when Monkey naps. If they weren't quiet, there would definitely be an issue. I most certainly have expectations and standards for their behavior during that time. Kids CAN live up to your expectations if you set them up for success.

 

So with what you did? You weren't reasonable in wanting him to nap if he is no longer needing a nap. However, you certainly weren't unreasonable in wanting him to take a quiet time as well as to comply when you gave him a direct command.

 

Honestly, I'm appalled by the lack of standards of behavior people have for their children these days. We're talking 4 year olds, not 14month olds!

[Joker]

I don't think it's really a lack of standards. My oldest could play and not have to be quiet because I didn't want to set up younger to only sleep when it is quiet. My kids can sleep with noise or no noise even today. I've also never done a quiet time though. When my kids were little (and even today) they could be just normal all day. If someone wanted to take a nap they could, but I never thought they should get to ask everyone else to be quiet for it.

[AK_Mom4]

Speaking as the mom whose kid got kicked out of preschool because he couldn't lie quietly on the mat during nap time.....

 

Yeah, some kids just can't be quiet playing with toys. Or lying on a mat. But my son COULD be quiet if he had headphones and an audiobook and something to color or draw while he listened. Or a big stack of books to look through. When he was four, he got his screen time (also with headphones) while little brother napped.

[Guest inoubliable]

I don't think it's really a lack of standards. My oldest could play and not have to be quiet because I didn't want to set up younger to only sleep when it is quiet. My kids can sleep with noise or no noise even today. I've also never done a quiet time though. When my kids were little (and even today) they could be just normal all day. If someone wanted to take a nap they could, but I never thought they should get to ask everyone else to be quiet for it.

 

Agree. I never expected the world to shush and stop turning for my kids when they went down for a nap. They learned to sleep through banging dishes about when I washed them, the vacuum running, and the UPS dude knocking loudly on the door to drop off a package. Similarly, I don't think it's a lack of standards to recognize that demanding my small child (toddler, even) remain quiet so that *I* can doze off is unrealistic and selfish. My children are well behaved. I have standards and they live up to them. Naptime for a parent shouldn't be something you need to "train" your child to deal with.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Horton, and that is fine if that is how you want to do in your home.

 

<soap box>

 

I just took some of the posts as saying it was unreasonable to ask the child to quiet down for a time. It seems, these days, that it is unreasonable to ask a child to think of anyone but themselves, follow rules at various businesses, etc. Also, "normal" depends on the family; but it seems like wild, out of control, hollering, etc is "normal" for a lot of people. Throwing legos, pushing siblings, knocking over toddlers as you rush by, etc is "normal." Those are awfully low standards. And maybe they are fine in one person's home; but why do the rest of us have to be made subject to them?

 

However, in my home, we practice how we want kids to behave long term. I don't want my kids to be so disruptive that the gym coach needs to build a wall where she wasn't planning. I don't want other parents to have to worry about their children's safety around my kids. I don't want people to have to practically yell to talk over my squealing, rough housing children at swim lessons. I don't want people having to hear or watch my kids be over-the-top at a restaurant. I don't want to subject people to rude little kids who "shouldn't be made to be quiet, still, nice, use walking feet," etc because they are "only four."

 

You will not hear me making an excuse for my child's behavior because he is four (or five or seven or 17....). Now, they may be a certain way partially because they are X, but that just means they need to learn to comply, obey, respect, be kind, be helpful, whatever....

 

Sorry, I had a situation happen very recently. I'm sick of other people's attitudes about their kids being "just four" or "just nine" or "cooped up all day" or "having adhd" or whatever other nonsense parents want to use as excuses for not disciplining these days.

 

I don't think the OP needed to spank her kid for acting up. I do think she needed to set him up for success better. But I hope she doesn't go all the way the other way and allow him to act up just because he's 4, high energy, challenging, adhd, etc.

 

 

ETA: I do agree that one of the good things about this board is that the OP (and all of us) can see how other people do. She can see that *I* would do X and you would do Y. She can see how we both would respond in the situation as well as prevent the next situation. I don't think you are wrong by any stretch. I think we're just different.

 

And like I said, I am upset about what happened at an activity because parents have standards I believe are unreasonably low. I guess I'm asking for people to consider if their normal has gotten so permissive. If not, then no worries....I'm not suggesting everyone who believes differently is permissive...I promise :)

[2squared]

The spanking wasn't actually for not sleeping, but for kicking the bed repeatedly and not stopping when asked. The problem with playing with toys is that my son is VERY loud with his toys and his room is right next to the bedroom so it always keeps me up. I am wondering if it will help when we get bunk-beds. Maybe then he will actually stay on the bed and read. Otherwise, he will also sneak into the kitchen and try to get himself food (resulting in something getting spilled and a giant mess.) He also likes to try to get into my drawers and hide things like my phone, keys, purse contents.

 

I honestly think you frame nearly everything the wrong way with this little guy. Of course he's not going to be completely silent and still while you nap a couple feet away. Of course he doesn't want to stay on the bed and read for more than a couple minutes! Of course he tries to get himself food, he's 4yo and he's trying to be independent. Of course he explores and plays with adult things. None of this is surprising or unusual. None of it is punishment worthy. Some of it is training worthy, but not punishment worthy. Your expectations just aren't in line with a 4yo.

 

I think you need to train him to play in his room or to watch a show while you nap. I wouldn't expect him to not make noises, but I would expect that you would figure out a way to sleep through his play as long as he's not yelling and crashing things into the walls. If you are concerned about him getting out of his room, then put a child safety thing on his doorknob so he can't get out. Or....sleep in front of his door. I have spent many afternoons dozing while my kids played around me. That's what life looks like when you have a 4yo and you are tired.

 

Maybe you should step back a little. What do you enjoy doing with this child? When does he make you smile? What do you share with him? I really get the feeling that he can't do anything right but he's just a normal 4yo boy. If you see him as naughty and sneaky, then he will start to see himself that way. You don't want him to view himself like that, do you?

[2squared]

I don't think the OP needed to spank her kid for acting up. I do think she needed to set him up for success better. But I hope she doesn't go all the way the other way and allow him to act up just because he's 4, high energy, challenging, adhd, etc.

 

I think the difference of opinion here is that I don't recall any of the OP's examples as being in the category of "acting up." This child clearly isn't acting how the OP desires, but I don't recall any truly questionable behavior. I think it's a wide jump from the "normal" 4yo actions of the OP's child and "throwing legos, pushing siblings, knocking over toddlers as you rush by."

[Pamela H in Texas]

Jennifer, she told the child what to do. He didn't. She told him to stop doing what he was doing multiple times. He didn't. That is most certainly acting up. Is he capable of complying AT ALL? Yes. Was her expectation reasonable long term? NO. But he didn't try to do it at all either! I don't consider ignoring mom's commands multiple times over a fairly short period of time "normal." Additionally, kicking a bed is not any different than throwing legos, imo.

 

Seriously, mom has the right to set the standard in her home. I guess I just think there should be a balance instead of saying the kid can just do whatever he pleases regardless of what his mother wants from him. Instead, her wants need to become more reasonable and she needs to set him up for success. And he DOES need to start complying (or at least trying to comply).

 

ETA: I just looked up and saw you also wrote the post I agreed with. I agreed with it so much that if I could "like" it several times, I would!

 

ETA2: The main reason I equated what I'm seeing at gymnastics (especially) and swim lessons and the park and restaurants is that I think it is a matter of respect to be somewhat quiet when other people are sleeping or chatting while watching their kids. I don't expect silence or tiptoeing; but I turn the light on in the bathroom after shutting the door if my hubby is sleeping. The kids play outside or in the playroom, not in their room when Monkey is sleeping. We use "level 1" voices instead of hollering whether in the house or at gymnastics. Just a few examples....

[Catwoman]

Pamela, I agree with a lot of what you said, although if you've read my earlier posts to this thread, you're probably thinking :confused: :confused: :confused:.

 

Here's the thing -- I don't know about anyone else, but I responded as I did because I think the OP is expecting far too much of her little guy in general, and she has posted more than once about punishment, spanking, and discipline. Frankly, I think her expectations of her ds4 are unreasonable. (In the napping situation, I was under the impression that she wanted him to lie down and be quiet for quite a while because was trying to take a nap -- not that she was just asking him to behave while she put her little one in bed for a nap, and then for a few minutes afterward.)

 

I hope I'm reading the OP's posts entirely incorrectly, but when I read about someone who wants to discipline a 4 year-old because he's incapable of cleaning up his room all by himself, that seems unreasonable to me. (I'm glad to hear that she has since come up with a compromise solution that's working!) It also seems unreasonable to ask a 4yo who isn't the least bit sleepy, to lie down, be quiet, and be still because Mom needs a nap.

 

I know I sound harsh toward the OP, and for all I know, she's a great mom who only sounds kind of tough on her ds because she doesn't post about all the great times they have together, and that these punishment/discipline issues are the exception rather than the rule, but I can only post based upon what I've read here.

 

I don't think she's a bad mom -- far from it! She's just trying to figure out how to manage an active 4yo, and all of us who have had to do that, are perfectly aware that we've all had our parenting moments that we'd just as soon forget. I just think she's over-estimating the capabilities and emotional maturity of her 4yo.

[2squared]

Jennifer, she TOLD the child what to do. He didn't. SHe told him to stop doing what he was doing multiple times. He didn't. That is most certainly acting up. Is he capable of complying AT ALL? Yes. Was her expectation reasonable long term? NO. But he didn't try to do it at all either! I don't consider ignoring mom's commands multiple times over a fairly short period of time "normal." I have kids from horrible backgrounds who are capable of learning to at least TRY to comply for a short time. Additionally, kicking a bed is not any different than throwing legos, imo.

 

Seriously, mom has the right to set the standard in her home. I guess I just think there should be a balance instead of saying the kid can just do whatever he pleases regardless of what his mother wants from him. Instead, her wants need to become more reasonable and she needs to set him up for success. And he DOES need to start complying (or at least trying to comply).

 

Yes, she told him. I assume he complied for a while even though he clearly didn't comply the entire time. She said that he makes noise when she starts to drift off to sleep, so he clearly is quiet for some (short) period of time. And....my guess is that they have an adversarial relationship right now. Based on what she has posted, I assume they are in a downward spiral. Who knows what proceeded this event? If she hasn't built the relationship enough for him to want to obey, well, I don't expect that he would obey. That's not his fault.

 

My 4yo cries when she is tired and hungry, and I can tell her to be quiet all day long but until I feed her or put her to sleep, she won't be successful at being quiet. Is she wrong for not obeying? I don't think so. She tries, but she just can't stick do it.

[Barefoot Explorer]

A few things:

 

One, I wasn't just arbitrarily forcing him to lie down so that I could get a nap. He had been saying that he was tired, rubbing his eyes, and indicated to me that he needed a rest. Also, I only made him lie down for 30 minutes. When it seemed that he was not able to fall asleep, I let him get up and look at books until rest time was over. Honestly, I think that he just gets stubborn sometimes, and refuses to sleep even when he is very tired.

 

I would like to reiterate that the spanking was not for not sleeping. It was for disobedience. I understand that some people have different standards for their four year olds, but he is old enough to stop kicking the bed when asked.

 

As for the sneaking around, he has ample opportunities to assert his independence. I let him help me cook in the kitchen, and he loves getting the ingredients, stirring the pot, grinding the pepper shaker etc. Also, he is allowed to get himself a snack as long as he asks me first, and has eaten his meals. He has access to his own dishes, and a variety of easy to get snacks. The only thing I ask is to be asked. This is very different. What this is is going in the kitchen and trying to do something when I am not looking. He usually does this when I am putting the baby down for a nap, and he knows that it is wrong because when I ask him what he was doing, he lies to me.

 

Also, to those who seem to think that I am too focused on discipline, and make it sound like I never spend time with my child, remember the fact that I started this whole board to get ideas for how to deal with discipline issues. So that is what I am asking about. We spend tons of positive time together, playing, talking, learning etc. I'll admit, I was really upset when I posted for help, but I didn't expect people to assume that is how I am all the time. Are you really saying that you have never gotten irritated when you are super sleep deprived and frustrated with your child's behavior?

 

I am starting to feel like this is a less safe place to come for advice than I thought it was.

 

Emily

[Catwoman]

One, I wasn't just arbitrarily forcing him to lie down so that I could get a nap. He had been saying that he was tired, rubbing his eyes, and indicated to me that he needed a rest. Also, I only made him lie down for 30 minutes. When it seemed that he was not able to fall asleep, I let him get up and look at books until rest time was over. Honestly, I think that he just gets stubborn sometimes, and refuses to sleep even when he is very tired.

 

I apologize if I misunderstood you, but it sounded like you were the one who wanted the nap. I didn't know that your ds had told you he was tired.

 

I would like to reiterate that the spanking was not for not sleeping. It was for disobedience. I understand that some people have different standards for their four year olds, but he is old enough to stop kicking the bed when asked.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, because I think your response was extreme.

 

As for the sneaking around, he has ample opportunities to assert his independence. I let him help me cook in the kitchen, and he loves getting the ingredients, stirring the pot, grinding the pepper shaker etc. Also, he is allowed to get himself a snack as long as he asks me first, and has eaten his meals. He has access to his own dishes, and a variety of easy to get snacks. The only thing I ask is to be asked. This is very different. What this is is going in the kitchen and trying to do something when I am not looking. He usually does this when I am putting the baby down for a nap, and he knows that it is wrong because when I ask him what he was doing, he lies to me.

 

Again, thank you for the explanation. I now better understand why you were upset. It wasn't really so much about the going in to the kitchen, but about lying and being sneaky. I would be very upset about that, too.

 

Also, to those who seem to think that I am too focused on discipline, and make it sound like I never spend time with my child, remember the fact that I started this whole board to get ideas for how to deal with discipline issues. So that is what I am asking about. We spend tons of positive time together, playing, talking, learning etc. I'll admit, I was really upset when I posted for help, but I didn't expect people to assume that is how I am all the time. Are you really saying that you have never gotten irritated when you are super sleep deprived and frustrated with your child's behavior?

 

Emily, if you go back and read your posts, you sound like you are focused on discipline and punishment, and also that you are expecting an awful lot of maturity from a 4yo, and that's what we responded to. We barely know you on this forum, so we can only base our responses on your actual posts. We had no idea about how much positive time you spend with your ds, because you didn't tell us all the good stuff. (I did mention that in my last post, by the way.)

 

I really appreciate it that you took the time to clarify what you meant, and to supply more details. I now know that you sounded so negative because you were posting when you were sleep-deprived and frustrated, and that you aren't usually feeling so negative about your ds4. That means a lot! Honestly, go back and re-read your posts and see if you can understand why we may have misunderstood some of your intentions. You really did sound awfully harsh toward your little guy, and I think that's why you received some of the replies that you did.

 

Now that we have more details, I think we can all be more constructive, so I really do thank you for posting more details. I also hope you'll participate in more and more discussions so we can all get to know you better. :)

[Pamela H in Texas]

Emily, simply take what you can use and file the rest. You already said you did get some good information in this thread. So be thankful for that and be a duck about things that may have been misunderstandings (on either party's part).

 

I do think you'll find that as you add more and more positive, you'll see less and less trouble. Additionally, when there *is* trouble, it is wise to consider what you could do to alter the situation somewhat.

 

*** you mentioned the cleaning up his room. Does he have too much stuff? Could you rotate out toys? Could you cut it down some other way? Does he simply need you to remind and/or help and/or train him more? Could you race the clock or pick toys up by color (texture, etc)?

 

*** you mentioned nap time. Could you set him up with books to look at? Could he play with toys X, Y, and Z? Could a portion of the time be used on screen time?

 

Each "issue," you simply see how you can help him from where he is to where you want him to be. Of course, you also have to judge whether your wants are reasonable. Obviously complying with a direct command, at least temporarily, is most certainly reasonable for the average 4yo. But lying still while awake or asking him to pick up 400 toys would not be.

 

I think that the fact that you asked as well as are considering the situation and solutions means you're a great mom. As a person who has posted on this board a VERY long time (since the old boards), I think that asking is wise. Just take each response in teh best light, take what you can, and don't take things personally :)

[Pamela H in Texas]

I would like to reiterate that the spanking was not for not sleeping. It was for disobedience. I understand that some people have different standards for their four year olds, but he is old enough to stop kicking the bed when asked.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, because I think your response was extreme.

 

So Cat....you disagree because of her response? You have an issue with spanking. But....Do you agree "he is old enough to stop kicking the bed when asked"?

 

I *know* four year olds can stop kicking a bed (assuming he is neurotypical, average intelligence, etc), at least temporarily.

I also know that spanking probably is a bit much in terms of punishing it, especially if the goal is for the child to relax and calm down.

I can't say the child shouldn't be incapable of complying even temporarily just because spanking was the response....ya know?

[Barefoot Explorer]

Pamela - cutting down on the toys is a good idea. He has limited storage so almost everything is accessible, and his mode of play is generally dump everything and then make an elaborate barricade. It can get a little crazy. Maybe I should just start storing some of them in the garage.

 

- My plan is to let him look at books in his room as soon as he has his new bunk-beds. Till then, the only option is on the couch, which can be problematic, but I guess I will just have to stay with him to make sure that he doesn't get up.

 

 

As far as getting myself a nap, I usually don't need one these days. But I have been sick and had a night of zero sleep two nights ago that I was trying to recover from.

[Pamela H in Texas]

BTW, Emily, four is the WORST age for a LOT of kids/families.

A LOT of people wonder why people talk about two being terrible when four is the opposite of fantastic!

That is another reason not to over react though. It really *is* a phase and as long as you address it

consistently (not necessarily punitively, definitely not necessary to be harsh), he'll grow out of it.

[Barefoot Explorer]

Also, I get the fact that I didn't exactly set him up for success. But the thing you have to understand is that it is such a guessing game these days. If your four year old (who still naps 2-3 times a week) started rubbing his eyes and acting super tired after returning from a long walk, wouldn't you at least try to put him down for a nap too? Whenever this happens, and he doesn't go to sleep, I always let him get up and engage in a quiet activity. The problem is that he is actually still very tired, and in need of a nap, and I don't know how to get him to actually take the nap that he needs.

[Pamela H in Texas]

it is such a guessing game these days. If your four year old (who still naps 2-3 times a week) started rubbing his eyes and acting super tired after returning from a long walk, wouldn't you at least try to put him down for a nap too?

 

Yeah. See, I would have tried to put him down also. And when he started acting up instead of sleeping, I would have been "huh?" And likely, if I had stayed up much of the night and was under the weather, I would have gotten irritated, especially when he started acting up (I still say completely disobeying is acting up). I may even have used some punishment (especially since it would be odd for my child to so blatantly disobey...though I realize that that in itself suggests I should chill myself as it isn't like it is a pattern of behavior). And then, once I was out of sorts, I would have said, "well, guess we're not gonna get a nap today." We would have done something quiet-ish until little one got up.

 

So see, not all that different afterall, huh? I'm totally a mess up on such things, at least the first time or two. Then I figure it out better.

 

So the next thing is to figure out where to go from here. And like you said, that is kinda hard. Does he need the nap? What can you put in place either way? I think what *I* would do is plan a quiet time daily. We have ours set up a certain way; but if I determine a child or all of them need to, I'll put them down. Alternatively, you could plan for a nap daily. I would determine what amount of time my child needs to fall asleep if he is going to and under what conditions. In our home, we have a tot-clock and we push the button. Having it blue means that child is supposed to be still and quiet. Kids know this (took a couple weeks of practice). So for X amount of time, kiddo would do that when I think he'll likely nap. After X amount of time, IF the child is awake, then phase two would start, a quiet activity (or set of activities or choice of activities).

 

It may take kiddo a few days, even a couple weeks to "get" the new routine. Be patient, remind him of the rules (oy, you should have seen me up EIGHT times nightly with my one child before and while we were learning how to use the tot-clock)...it'll work out.

 

BTW, I'm not saying you have to do it my way.

 

But as I have a four year old who needs a nap some days or seems like he does some days and doesn't most days, this is similar to what we do. It sure is hard though. Sometimes they sleep. SOmetimes they don't. Sometimes they eat. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes the potty 12 times a day. Sometimes they potty 4 times a day. Sometimes 90% of what they talk about is off in left field or an untruth and other times it is 90% accurate. Some days they can do chores well and other days they seem clueless. Seriously, could they be less predictable?

[JumpyTheFrog]

OP,

 

A few weeks ago I posted in extreme frustration about my son's behavior. Many, or most of the posters that commented said that I was being too harsh and expecting too much from him. At first, it was a bit hard to hear, but they were right.

 

We haven't made any progress with his behavior, but I realize I do need to focus more on our relationship. Tigger's attitude will eventually improve, but first I have to choose to do my part, even though the last thing I want to do is be around Mr. Sourpuss Who Yells at Mommy a Lot.

 

My point is not that you have a poor relationship with your son (I don't know enough to have an opinion about it), but that after having been here for a few years, and reading lots of "help me with discipline" threads, if several posters think a parent is being too harsh or expecting too much from a child that is x-years old, they are usually right. I try to pay extra attention to the advice of moms who have several kids in theirs 20s or older.

 

(And likewise, I don't think much of people who make their living off selling parenting books and speaking at Christian conferences when their oldest hasn't even graduated from high school. Get back to me when several of your kids have been out of the nest long enough to know if you might be worth paying to listen to. - Rant over. )

 

Anyway, I know the advice you've been given is probably hard to hear. Please take a few days or weeks to think it over.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Re: the naps

 

My oldest was a terrible napper as a baby, despite being horribly overtired. I never found a solution. He finally outgrew it as a toddler. He gave up naps at 3 1/2. We noticed that when he took a nap, he'd be up until 10-11pm, so we dropped the nap.

 

Little Guy, at age 8 months, tried to give up naps. He would take two 20 minute naps per day in the baby carrier. That was it! I had wasted enough time trying to get DS1 to sleep as a baby, so I just accepted it and did dishes while he snoozed. When he was about 14-15 months old, I managed to get him to take regular naps for either 2 or 6 weeks (can't remember) and then that was it. Regular naps were over, although he still fell asleep in the car many days.

 

I should add that during this entire period, I had a chronic illness that left me on the couch for hours per day, after just doing some laundry and the dishes. I know what tired is. I know what exhausted it. I know all about severe insomnia. Anyway, what worked best for me was to let my 4 1/2 and 1 1/2 year old play on the floor while I dozed on the couch. I could hear them (and DH was working in his office upstairs) but still get some rest. I didn't bother to try to get them to be quiet. I just needed to lay down.

[AdventureMoms]

My 4 yo hasn't napped consistently for over 2 years. My 2yos are starting to give theirs up. It sounds like he's ready to give up the nap. If you need the break, I'd let him play quietly in his room for an hour. Expecting him to lay still and not wiggle when he isn't tired enough to sleep is asking too much at this age, IMO.

[Barefoot Explorer]

I don't mind starting over, provided that you guys don't jump to assumptions about me. I am not only interested in punishment and discipline. For one thing, people tend to think that that those two words are synonyms, but they really aren't. The way I see it, discipline is the complete picture of teaching your child right from wrong, and how to follow the family rules. Punishment is only one aspect of it. There is also praising them when they do a good job, setting a good example, explaining the reasons behind certain rules, and making sure that they feel loved and valued. Punishment is actually only a small part of discipline, if you think about it. The ultimate goal is for mama-discipline to turn into self-discipline so that punishment is no longer even necessary.

 

I think that the reason I responded so vehemently wasn't because people were critical of the way of the way that I handled the situation, but because they implied that one negative interaction presented the complete picture of my relationship with my son. They jumped to the conclusion that I am constantly down on him, or that he can do no right in my eyes. That is absolutely not the case. And I really don't feel like I said anything to indicate that in my posts either. I was talking about one specific issue, which is nap time.

 

Also, I am not claiming to have handled the situation in the best possible way either, but that is why I came looking for ideas on how other moms would handle it.

 

It isn't that I can't handle criticism. What I don't appreciate is judgement. There is a difference.

 

 

So anyway...moving on....

My plan for today is to set him up with books on the couch. It is not the ideal place for a rest time due to being right in the center of the house, but it is my only option. We will see how that goes. Also he has completed all of his chores two days in a row, which is pretty exciting. We pay him a 50 cent allowance for every day that he finishes all of his chores. I do have to stay with him in his room, but I am hoping that with time I will be able to leave to get things done. It is pretty hard for me to just sit in his room for 2-3 hours while he cleans, because I am sooo behind on the rest of the house. I know people always say, the house can wait, just focus on your kids, but I am not talking about aesthetics. I am talking about the basics of having clothes to wear, and dishes washed and dinner made. I am so behind on the laundry that my kids don't have a single pair of clean pants, and there are days that the kitchen is so messy we have to eat out, because I don't have room to cook. So I have to have time to get this stuff done.

 

Nap-time used to be my when I would get most of the housework done, and now that we are losing nap-time, I haven't figure out a good routine. I feel like our days are all so different, and the only things that are really done at the same times are meal times and bed times. There are so many variables...let's see.. Some mornings we go to the YMCA, but not every morning. Some mornings we go to an outdoor preschool program. On those days, we often go the YMCA in the afternoon, but then we aren't home long enough to be able to get chores done. Some evenings we have events to go to, and some are at home. We also have days when we have to run errands, do grocery shopping, library etc...

 

So I am sure all of those sorts of variables are pretty normal, but I am not sure how to develop a good routine around them. Any ideas?

[Barefoot Explorer]

Oh and I should explain that the reason we go to the YMCA so often is because I am hoping that it will help with my stress and my mental health. I am trying exercise and supplements before I jump into anti-depressants. They scare me! So far it does seem to be helping. I can see a big difference on the days that I exercise vs. the days that I don't. It does seem to take up the whole morning though! We usually don't make it out of the house till 9-9:30 and then we usually get home around 11:30. I have no idea how people do it faster...

[Guest inoubliable]

So I am sure all of those sorts of variables are pretty normal, but I am not sure how to develop a good routine around them. Any ideas?

 

Set a schedule. It really is that easy.

 

Your DS is old enough to "join in" on some chores, too. You don't need to figure out separate entertainment for him while you fold clothes or wash dishes. You've already figured this out with cooking. He can practice folding clothes while you fold clothes and sing a song together. Have him color something on the kitchen floor while you attend to dishes. Don't think of losing naptime as losing housework time. You simply need to adjust to having a four year old. It's a rough transition for some. The walking and the talking thing - it sorta creeps up on you. You just have to adapt.

[Barefoot Explorer]

How do you set a schedule when every day is different? Some days we are home in the mornings, and other days we are home in the afternoons. Do you just make a different schedule for each day?

[Guest inoubliable]

Monday - YMCA, shower, tacos

Tuesday - library, trash day, Grandma's house

Wednesday - picnic, supermarket, caber toss

Thursday - brew beer, shift at tattoo shop, rave night (obviously this is going to be one of you wilder days, stick a nap in there somewhere)

Friday - book club, spaghetti dinner, weekly lightbulb change

 

Yep. You could have a different schedule for every day of the week. Just be consistent. Every Monday, you need to be sure you're having tacos. KWIM?

[Barefoot Explorer]

So where do you schedule chore time? Also, I wish my life was that exciting! LOL Usually the only exciting part of my day is getting a shower after my workout. Here would be a sample day..

 

7:30- Get up and eat breakfast. (my husband cooks, which helps so much!)

8 - Start getting kids ready to go

9 - Finally get out the door

9:30 - Start working out

11:30 - Return from YMCA and make lunch

12:30 - Clean up from lunch and put baby down for nap

1- Do schoolwork with Matthew for about an hour

2 - Start washing dishes, usually don't get them all done

3 - Baby wakes up and needs to nurse

3:30 - Sit with Matthew in his room while he cleans it

5- Give up on the room getting clean because I need to start dinner

6:30 - Eat dinner

7 - Hopefully finish dishes and hang out with husband for a few minutes

8 - Put baby and Matthew to bed - This usually takes 30-45 minutes

9 - If I still have any energy, I can get on the computer for a few minutes or hang out with my husband for a little while.

9:30 - Go to bed

 

This is just a sample of how a day might go, as it really varies a lot. When I do laundry, we usually end up eating out. When skip working out, we usually go to the outdoor preschool so that Matthew can see his friends or we do our grocery shopping.

[Guest inoubliable]

It shouldn't be taking an hour and a half for a 4 year old to clean up his room. Can you weed out some stuff in his room? Do a good deep clean over the weekend and get things better organized?

[Barefoot Explorer]

The reason that it takes so long is because he moves veeeerrryy slowly. He constantly gets distracted and starts playing or showing me something. The other problem is that when he plays, he likes to dump out almost everything. I have put a lot of the toys on the upper shelves in his closet, but those are full now, as it is a tiny closet and mostly dedicated to clothes. I just did a major purge of the junkier toys right after Christmas. There might a few things that could be weeded out, but not much. The only junky toys that are left are his guns and swords, which he plays with every day and would be devastated if I got rid of. Every thing else is high-quality and played with frequently.

[unsinkable]

Monday - YMCA, shower, tacos

Tuesday - library, trash day, Grandma's house

Wednesday - picnic, supermarket, caber toss

Thursday - brew beer, shift at tattoo shop, rave night (obviously this is going to be one of you wilder days, stick a nap in there somewhere)

Friday - book club, spaghetti dinner, weekly lightbulb change

 

Yep. You could have a different schedule for every day of the week. Just be consistent. Every Monday, you need to be sure you're having tacos. KWIM?

 

Sending the kids down to you for Thursdays.

 

My middle child is at the age where he is busting out of his shell..he'll love it.

[Guest inoubliable]

If a bunch of toys are on the upper shelves of his closet and not being used - get rid of them. If he's got so much that he's getting distracted at clean up time - you have too many. I think you'd probably benefit from teaching him a "one out at a time" rule. Just don't let him dump out everything at once. I think you're going to have to start investing in more hands-on time with your little guy. A lot of these behaviors that are driving you nuts are things that YOU can correct - if you're willing to do some serious looking at how efficiently you're spending your time and how much "stuff" you have around.

[Joker]

What are you storing his toys in? I have one who always dumped everything out and cleaning was like torture for her. It still doesn't take her more than 15 minutes to tidy her room daily. Once a week it takes longer because she and I dust, vacuum, and all that stuff. It took a while but we eventually found a way to organize her room so it was easy for her to take care of. She has a few bins with rollers that are stored under her bed and hold her toys. She has her dresser and closet for clothes, and then she has one other chest type piece of furniture for books and extras. I'm not picky about where she keeps her things as long as everything gets put away. Maybe you could figure out a way to organize his room so it's easier and quicker to pick up.

[Guest inoubliable]

Sending the kids down to you for Thursdays.

 

My middle child is at the age where he is busting out of his shell..he'll love it.

 

Deal. But you're on for Wednesdays. My shoulders and knees are starting to ache.

[fairfarmhand]

So where do you schedule chore time? Also, I wish my life was that exciting! LOL Usually the only exciting part of my day is getting a shower after my workout. Here would be a sample day..

 

7:30- Get up and eat breakfast. (my husband cooks, which helps so much!)

8 - Start getting kids ready to go

9 - Finally get out the door

9:30 - Start working out

11:30 - Return from YMCA and make lunch (can you make lunch earlier in the day--perhaps do lunchbox fare so you don't have to prep this? It will also simplify cleanup)

12:30 - Clean up from lunch and put baby down for nap

1- Do schoolwork with Matthew for about an hour (I might dump this in favor of doing some light schoolwork while nursing. Maybe just reading books KWIM?)

2 - Start washing dishes, usually don't get them all done (can you switch to paper plates for awhile to help with dishes?)

3 - Baby wakes up and needs to nurse (again...can you nurse while directing room clean up?)

3:30 - Sit with Matthew in his room while he cleans it

5- Give up on the room getting clean because I need to start dinner ( Even if he's playing with everything, I would still at least box up and attic or basement store half the stuff if it is taking that long to clean. He can still have fun with half the stuff)

6:30 - Eat dinner

7 - Hopefully finish dishes and hang out with husband for a few minutes

8 - Put baby and Matthew to bed - This usually takes 30-45 minutes (I am assuming this is bath and everything. I found that my best cleaning time was when my toddler was in the tub. I'd let dad hang with baby and clean the bathroom and fold clothes while Matthew is in tub. )

9 - If I still have any energy, I can get on the computer for a few minutes or hang out with my husband for a little while.

9:30 - Go to bed

 

This is just a sample of how a day might go, as it really varies a lot. When I do laundry, we usually end up eating out. When skip working out, we usually go to the outdoor preschool so that Matthew can see his friends or we do our grocery shopping.

 

I'll weigh in on more suggestions later, but I have to leave soon. I bet once you get your routine down, you will feel alot better about handling your boy. It IS hard when you feel that you have too much on your plate and nothing ever gets finished.

[beaners]

If he's dumping everything every time he plays, do you have anything he can dump everything back into when he's done? We have a bin like that, and while it makes me twitchy to know that everything is jumbled and parts might be missing, it saves a LOT of time cleaning up. We scoop and dump. We actually started out using a big cardboard box from Aldis until I was ready to make it a permanent decision.

 

I have 4 children 5 and under right now (Eeek, how did that happen?), and it is a special kind of chaos. My 5 year old still sleeps a couple times a week. I do try to put everyone down for a rest every day, but our schedule is also very subject to change. I haven't been as consistent as I'd like.

[Barefoot Explorer]

The toys on the upper shelves all get played with frequently, but they are things with lots of little parts like legos, bristle blocks, hot wheel cars, & tinker-toys. The rule is that he has to clean up whatever toy is out before I will get any of these toys down, but I do end getting them down several times a week.

 

As for storage on ground level, I have a black shelf with fabric bins. One is misc, one is for instruments, and one is for Mr. Potato Head stuff. These are labeled with pictures to help him remember. The larger toys just go on the shelves. Then he has a bookshelf for his books. I also have two padded boxes that fit together to make a little bench. One is for wood blocks and the other is for the train set. Then he has a workbench, and all the tools go on that. He also has a little night stand that we use as a kitchen area, and all of his play food and dishes go in the drawers. His stuffed animals and guns/swords go in large plastic bins with handles in the closet.

 

The only way to institute a one toy out at a time rule would be to always be in his room the whole time he is playing. This would make it impossible for me to ever cook dinner. I don't get how you guys can enforce something like that. Do you just eat out for dinner every night. Do you have a personal maid?

[unsinkable]

I actually pour food in the middle of the floor and let the kids go at it.

[Catwoman]

I actually pour food in the middle of the floor and let the kids go at it.

 

Doesn't everyone? ;)

[Joker]

I've never done the one toy out at a time thing. My dds liked to mix up their toys a lot. The easiest thing to do was have a quick pickup time twice a day. I usually had them do one before lunch and the other before bed. I was never particular about which bins and such their toys went in as long as they were put away and things looked picked up. Neither pick up time would take more than 15 minutes.

[Catwoman]

How about if you had him help you pick up his toys at the end of the day, rather than just supervising while he does it himself? It would still teach him that his toys should be put away every day, but it might be a whole lot faster and easier for you.

 

Honestly, whenever I have a lot of stuff to clean up and put away, I get distracted easily, too. (OOH! Something shiny! Something sparkly! :p I'm telling you, it doesn't take much to throw me off the task at hand.) But if I'm working with someone else, it's somehow easier to do what needs to be done. I don't know if that would work for your ds, but if you keep talking to him about how you're putting away all of Mr Potatohead's stuff now, and hey, let's get those Legos into the bin, or whatever, it might be enough to keep reminding him of what he's supposed to be doing, without it feeling like you're bossing him around.

 

I know you'd like him to do the job himself, but you must be ready to pull your own hair out after sitting and watching him try to clean his room for that much time each day. If you work with him, setting it up as a teamwork kind of situation, I'll bet you'd be done in about a quarter of the time, and that could make a huge difference in your stress level at dinnertime, because you wouldn't be in a rush to try to get dinner made and on the table.

[Barefoot Explorer]

Also, I was thinking about it, and while it did take an hour and a half to clean his room day before yesterday, yesterday and today it only took 20 minutes, so I think that doing it every day will help. I think that the real problem sets in when he hasn't done it in 2-3 days and it has really built up.

 

Going to the store yesterday and buying a toy with his allowance has really given him a new found energy! LOL

 

To those of you who aren't particular about a toy being put away where it goes, at what age did you start teaching organization? Or do you just leave that up to the child?

[Joker]

They became organized with things as those things became more important to them. They also learned about organization when helping me clean their bathroom (which they now do on their own) or helping in the kitchen. They always helped with laundry and knew how to put up their clothes. They now do that completely on their own. They learned organization while doing school at home. Now oldest is at ps and she has to stay organized there as well. There are many ways for them to learn it besides keeping toys organized at a young age.