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Help with Disciplining 4 year old


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In an earlier post (Beginning My Homeschool Journey) I talked about some of the struggles that I am having with my my four year old son. A friend has been trying to convince me to start "To Train Up a Child" by the Pearls. While I think that there are a few helpful aspects to that book, there was much in it that I found disturbing. But because I still, obviously, don't have that great of a handle on what I should be doing, it is hard for me to explain what it is that bothers me so much about the book, or what it is that I want to do instead.

 

Do you have any thoughts about "To Train Up a Child"? Can you recommend any other books that might be helpful? I am not opposed to those that include spanking, but I want something that will help me focus on the positive, preemptive side of discipline so that hopefully I don't have to spank so often. I also need help learning how to stay calm and discipline with love with a boy that really knows how to push my buttons.

 

Book suggestions would be great, but I would also love any advice you can give me from your own experience. Also, advice on how to address my friend would be great, because she is convinced that this book is pretty much THE WAY and I want to handle the situation kindly...

 

Thanks guys,

Emily

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I only know that the Pearls' discipline methods have been used by several families that later killed their children abusively. No thanks. What worked for me at this challenging age was Burton's White's books: The First Three Years of Life and Raising a Happy and Unspoiled Child.

 

I also found much wisdom in Raising Godly Tomatoes, even though I'm not so godly myself LOL.

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I really like Parenting with Love and Logic and Grace Based Parenting. I've been given several of the Pearl's books by friends and have destroyed/disposed of them in the landfill rather than passing them along to others through the thrift store. There are a few useful things in them, but I don't find sifting through the junk and raising my blood pressure to be worth it.

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It sounds like I need to go to the bookstore this weekend and start checking a few of these out. I am glad that I am not the only one who feels like the Pearl books are a little off. Any idea how I can explain this to my friend without being hurtful? I tend to be overly direct and all I can think of is, "I think you have been brainwashed by cultish hogwash...", which is obviously not what I should say...

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Welcome to the boards, Emily!

 

You've picked a loaded topic - be prepared for LOTS of feedback. ;)

 

My advice?

 

Stay far away from "To Train Up a Child".

 

Tell your friend you appreciate her input, but you've decided to follow a different approach.

 

Love your little boy, be kind but firm in your approach, use "natural" consequences as much as possible (e.g. you break the toy and it's gone), and be consistent in how you parent. Kids thrive on consistency and security, so pick something that works for your son and stick with it. When in doubt, give him a hug. "Hug therapy" works wonders at our house. :)

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Rather than focusing on why not to follow the Pearls (which might quickly derail the thread), I'd like to have a little more information about the behaviors you'd like help with. :) If you don't mind being a little more specific about the challenges you're facing, I am sure you'll get some wonderful advice and we can steer you toward parenting resources that might be a better fit for you and your family.

 

Cat

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Welcome to the boards, Emily!

 

You've picked a loaded topic - be prepared for LOTS of feedback. ;)

 

My advice?

 

Stay far away from "To Train Up a Child".

 

Tell your friend you appreciate her input, but you've decided to follow a different approach.

 

Love your little boy, be kind but firm in your approach, use "natural" consequences as much as possible (e.g. you break the toy and it's gone), and be consistent in how you parent. Kids thrive on consistency and security, so pick something that works for your son and stick with it. When in doubt, give him a hug. "Hug therapy" works wonders at our house. :)

 

Never underestimate the power of a hug and understanding smile with a preschooler. It's an easily heard mantra in this house - "he just needs a hug"... and amazing how often it works. Even with my dd11, sometimes a simple hug and kind smile will make her fall into my arms and tell me what is *really* bothering her.

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I need to find and read your first post, but we have been using 1,2,3 timeout as our core and working on follow through, consistency and communication on our part. There is a book I really like called "How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk." Its geared towards older kids, but really helped me with the littles to start off on the right foot. Its helped the marriage too.

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Do you think you could explain to me exactly what in the book you found abusive? I need some help presenting a clear argument, and it has been a couple years since I read the book so I am a little foggy.

 

I"m not a spanker so this is difficult for me to answer because the books are EXTREMELY pro spanking. I'll try to set that aside for a moment. I vaguely recall that they advocate for spanking children as young as 6 months old - for crying. That they advocate for setting children up for failure, so they can be punished. They they are proponents for "breaking" a child's will and using such things as pipes (or something like that) for physical discipline.

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Guest inoubliable

Do you think you could explain to me exactly what in the book you found abusive? I need some help presenting a clear argument, and it has been a couple years since I read the book so I am a little foggy.

 

 

I think you'll find your thread gets real icky and sticky and uncool if you go that route. If you truly don't want to use the Pearls' way, just tell your friend that. Point blank. "It's not for me." And move on.

For some really helpful advice from the collective wisdom of The Hive, it would help to know what behaviors you need help on.

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I am going to copy and paste my earlier post, as I think it kinda got lost. It might present a more complete picture, but please ask me any questions you have. I really appreciate the help, as I am struggling to find anyone around here who understands what is going on.

 

My name is Emily, and I am pretty new here, although I have been lurking for a few days getting a feel for the place. I have always been interested in classical homeschooling in a theoretical way, but now with a son who is 4 I have to put my money where my mouth is and actually do this thing. I have to admit that I am scared and overwhelmed by the whole thing. It didn't used to be this way. Back when he was a baby and I was reading The Well Trained Mind for the first time, I felt quite confident in my ability to pull this off. Then I had my second son, who is 1, and life got a LOT harder. I have been in survival mode for the last couple of years, and I consider it an accomplishment if I a get a shower and dinner on. I have struggled with depression for about 6 years now, and major fatigue/stress issues, and I am beginning to question my ability to actually homeschool.

 

I know that a lot of this just stems from my mental state right now, but I keep thinking, "How am I supposed to homeschool when I haven't even done the laundry in 3 weeks, my kids don't own matching socks, and last night's dinner was eating out...again?" I feel like a pretty crappy mom most of the time.

 

Most people have been saying that I should just put him in preschool. But here is the problem. I have a MAJOR philosophical objection to the public school system, and I could never afford the private schools in the area without going back to work and putting my 1 year old in day care which is the last thing I want to do for him. He is still nursing 3-4 times a day, and just...not ready.

 

I pretty much have two options. Rewind time and remember to use birth control 5 years ago or achieve a level of mental strength and stability that allows me to successfully homeschool. So obviously only one option.

 

Part of why this is so intimidating is that my son is an INCREDIBLY difficult child, and I struggle to understand him. Sometimes he seems to understand things, but other times he lives in his own world. It has gotten to the point where I have to yell loudly before he even pays attention to me, and of course that wears on both of us. I come from a background of verbally advanced children who were speaking in complete sentences by that age and had a higher level of comprehension, so learning how to communicate with a child who is verbally behind is challenging to say the least. He also sneaks around the house getting into stuff when I am not looking, picks on his brother, and apparently is incapable of learning how to clean his room.

 

On a more positive note, he is very loving much of the time, physically active, and insanely imaginative.

 

So anyway, I know this is sort of a vague rambling post, but I would love any advice that you can give me, about any of my various issues. Thanks in advance.

 

 

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Guest inoubliable

Never underestimate the power of a hug and understanding smile with a preschooler. It's an easily heard mantra in this house - "he just needs a hug"... and amazing how often it works. Even with my dd11, sometimes a simple hug and kind smile will make her fall into my arms and tell me what is *really* bothering her.

 

 

This is good advice. This works with DS5 where nothing else would. Redirecting him with a hug works so well that I find my DS8 coming to me for hugs even at his age when he's frustrated or angry.

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Also I get what you are saying about not wanting to go into all of the issues with the Pearl's book....definitely a controversial subject. I am just struggling with this, because this friend of mine is my only homeschooling friend and the only person I know who is actually willing to help me out and come over for encouragement. I am SO nervous about how to handle this, and I just wish that I she had never become so enamored of that blankity-blank book.

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Guest inoubliable

I am going to copy and paste my earlier post, as I think it kinda got lost. It might present a more complete picture, but please ask me any questions you have. I really appreciate the help, as I am struggling to find anyone around here who understands what is going on.

 

 

My name is Emily, and I am pretty new here, although I have been lurking for a few days getting a feel for the place. I have always been interested in classical homeschooling in a theoretical way, but now with a son who is 4 I have to put my money where my mouth is and actually do this thing. I have to admit that I am scared and overwhelmed by the whole thing. It didn't used to be this way. Back when he was a baby and I was reading The Well Trained Mind for the first time, I felt quite confident in my ability to pull this off. Then I had my second son, who is 1, and life got a LOT harder. I have been in survival mode for the last couple of years, and I consider it an accomplishment if I a get a shower and dinner on. I have struggled with depression for about 6 years now, and major fatigue/stress issues, and I am beginning to question my ability to actually homeschool.

 

I know that a lot of this just stems from my mental state right now, but I keep thinking, "How am I supposed to homeschool when I haven't even done the laundry in 3 weeks, my kids don't own matching socks, and last night's dinner was eating out...again?" I feel like a pretty crappy mom most of the time.

 

Most people have been saying that I should just put him in preschool. But here is the problem. I have a MAJOR philosophical objection to the public school system, and I could never afford the private schools in the area without going back to work and putting my 1 year old in day care which is the last thing I want to do for him. He is still nursing 3-4 times a day, and just...not ready.

 

I pretty much have two options. Rewind time and remember to use birth control 5 years ago or achieve a level of mental strength and stability that allows me to successfully homeschool. So obviously only one option.

 

Part of why this is so intimidating is that my son is an INCREDIBLY difficult child, and I struggle to understand him. Sometimes he seems to understand things, but other times he lives in his own world. It has gotten to the point where I have to yell loudly before he even pays attention to me, and of course that wears on both of us. I come from a background of verbally advanced children who were speaking in complete sentences by that age and had a higher level of comprehension, so learning how to communicate with a child who is verbally behind is challenging to say the least. He also sneaks around the house getting into stuff when I am not looking, picks on his brother, and apparently is incapable of learning how to clean his room.

 

On a more positive note, he is very loving much of the time, physically active, and insanely imaginative.

 

So anyway, I know this is sort of a vague rambling post, but I would love any advice that you can give me, about any of my various issues. Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder if amo_mea_filiis could chime in here for you. I think she might have some ideas for you to try. As I recall her DS has some verbal challenges along with some of the behavioral challenges you mention.

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Consistency....period. Find out what motivates a child and be consistent

 

My oldest was tough. I could spank and spank and spank, but she would rather take the pain than have her will thwarted. I found that she loved a particular show that came on later in the evening. If she was good (with concrete measures of good, like checks on the board or stars) she got to stay up late and watch her show. Otherwise, it was to bed early.

 

My second got a single swat and was totally reformed.

 

My nephew would rather take a spanking than sit on the stairs quietly. So the worst punishment ever is to sit in time-out.

 

For other kids, not getting a favorite daily treat is motivating.

 

Whatever you decide to do, be consistent. If a behavior is off limits today it should be tomorrow.

 

Also, give your kids the tools they need to behave. If you know your child gets cranky when hungry or tired, then don't wait on dinner or let him stay up late.

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I am going to copy and paste my earlier post, as I think it kinda got lost. It might present a more complete picture, but please ask me any questions you have. I really appreciate the help, as I am struggling to find anyone around here who understands what is going on.

 

 

My name is Emily, and I am pretty new here, although I have been lurking for a few days getting a feel for the place. I have always been interested in classical homeschooling in a theoretical way, but now with a son who is 4 I have to put my money where my mouth is and actually do this thing. I have to admit that I am scared and overwhelmed by the whole thing. It didn't used to be this way. Back when he was a baby and I was reading The Well Trained Mind for the first time, I felt quite confident in my ability to pull this off. Then I had my second son, who is 1, and life got a LOT harder. I have been in survival mode for the last couple of years, and I consider it an accomplishment if I a get a shower and dinner on. I have struggled with depression for about 6 years now, and major fatigue/stress issues, and I am beginning to question my ability to actually homeschool. Anyone with a child under 5 is in survival mode. Right now do don't need to even consider latin, math or history. He will be fine if for Kindergarten you do nothing more than read a pile of books each day, sing the ABC song and let him play playdoh.

 

I know that a lot of this just stems from my mental state right now, but I keep thinking, "How am I supposed to homeschool when I haven't even done the laundry in 3 weeks, my kids don't own matching socks, and last night's dinner was eating out...again?" I feel like a pretty crappy mom most of the time. Matching socks is overrated. I never match socks.

 

Most people have been saying that I should just put him in preschool. But here is the problem. I have a MAJOR philosophical objection to the public school system, and I could never afford the private schools in the area without going back to work and putting my 1 year old in day care which is the last thing I want to do for him. He is still nursing 3-4 times a day, and just...not ready.

 

I pretty much have two options. Rewind time and remember to use birth control 5 years ago or achieve a level of mental strength and stability that allows me to successfully homeschool. So obviously only one option.

 

Part of why this is so intimidating is that my son is an INCREDIBLY difficult child, and I struggle to understand him. Sometimes he seems to understand things, but other times he lives in his own world. It has gotten to the point where I have to yell loudly before he even pays attention to me, and of course that wears on both of us. I come from a background of verbally advanced children who were speaking in complete sentences by that age and had a higher level of comprehension, so learning how to communicate with a child who is verbally behind is challenging to say the least. He also sneaks around the house getting into stuff when I am not looking, picks on his brother, and apparently is incapable of learning how to clean his room. Stop yelling. He's not hearing you. Take his chin in your hand and speak calmly and quietly to him. Remember that at 4 he's still just a baby. Many 4 yo's are still more like 3's. Put up baby gates to keep him near you and go back to toddler-levels of supervision until you believe he is ready.

 

On a more positive note, he is very loving much of the time, physically active, and insanely imaginative.

 

So anyway, I know this is sort of a vague rambling post, but I would love any advice that you can give me, about any of my various issues. Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

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I have struggled with depression for about 6 years now, and major fatigue/stress issues, and I am beginning to question my ability to actually homeschool.

 

I think you and your son would be best served if you take some time to get healthy before you attempt to start homeschooling. He's 4. There's no rush. Take care of yourself first.

 

Most people have been saying that I should just put him in preschool. But here is the problem. I have a MAJOR philosophical objection to the public school system, and I could never afford the private schools in the area without going back to work and putting my 1 year old in day care which is the last thing I want to do for him. He is still nursing 3-4 times a day, and just...not ready.

 

So don't do either. Don't put him in school but don't worry about "schooling" him at home either at this point. He's learning constantly whether you formally teach him or not. Let him play, explore, go on field trips together, read lots of books. That's plenty for now.

 

It has gotten to the point where I have to yell loudly before he even pays attention to me, and of course that wears on both of us.

It's a scientific fact that kids tune out when parents yell. ;) Try whispering instead. It's amazing how quickly their hearing returns as they strain to hear what you're saying.

 

He also sneaks around the house getting into stuff when I am not looking, picks on his brother, and apparently is incapable of learning how to clean his room.

 

This is exactly how my 9 year old DS was at age 4. The only thing that works is keeping him close to you and doing things with him (rather than expecting him to be able to be independent). As for cleaning his room, most 4 year olds I know aren't capable of that yet. What worked best for us was to make it into a game where we "raced" each other in picking up as many things as we could. But I couldn't just say "Go clean your room". I had to do it with him, or it was too overwhelming for him and he shut down.

 

On a more positive note, he is very loving much of the time, physically active, and insanely imaginative.

 

 

He sounds like a great kid. :) :grouphug:

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I like the idea of thinking of other consequences that don't involve spanking. I feel like taking away movies or dessert or something like that might be more effective. I also know that hugs are hugely helpful. The problem there is that I am usually too mad to hug...Honestly, I know that a lot of the problem is with my own emotional maturity, but I don't know what to do to start growing out of that. I feel pathetic that a four year old gets to me so badly...

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Also I get what you are saying about not wanting to go into all of the issues with the Pearl's book....definitely a controversial subject. I am just struggling with this, because this friend of mine is my only homeschooling friend and the only person I know who is actually willing to help me out and come over for encouragement. I am SO nervous about how to handle this, and I just wish that I she had never become so enamored of that blankity-blank book.

 

 

:grouphug: You don't have to handle it beyond, "Thanks for the recommendation. It's not really for me. Thanks for thinking of me, though." If she wants to pursue a conversation, you just repeat, "It really wasn't for me," and change the subject. If she continues to pursue the matter, then she's really not understanding or not honoring the boundary you're setting, which is either clueless or rude.

 

Cat

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Guest inoubliable

I like the idea of thinking of other consequences that don't involve spanking. I feel like taking away movies or dessert or something like that might be more effective. I also know that hugs are hugely helpful. The problem there is that I am usually too mad to hug...Honestly, I know that a lot of the problem is with my own emotional maturity, but I don't know what to do to start growing out of that. I feel pathetic that a four year old gets to me so badly...

 

 

Gently... are you seeing a medical professional for the depression and fatigue? I know oh so many people who have been able to better cope with things that they thought were impossible before - after they were able to find a medication that helped, or a therapist who helped them find some tricks to dealing with stress. It may benefit you and your family to look down that route, if it's possible.

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I like the idea of thinking of other consequences that don't involve spanking. I feel like taking away movies or dessert or something like that might be more effective. I also know that hugs are hugely helpful. The problem there is that I am usually too mad to hug...Honestly, I know that a lot of the problem is with my own emotional maturity, but I don't know what to do to start growing out of that. I feel pathetic that a four year old gets to me so badly...

Sometimes mad hugs are the best - they make the mad melt away. Lol. At least for me :) If I'm annoyed with my husband, the best thing he can do is hug me.

 

And don't feel pathetic. This parenting gig is hard. Seriously - people underestimate a bright preschooler's ability to drive us to grey before our time.

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I have been calling around trying to find a therapist of some variety, and finances have been the biggest road block. If I find anything remotely affordable, I will definitely go down that path. I am not a private person, and I have no shame in going for help. I will admit that I am scared to death of drugs, but I am beginning to wonder if I have no choice. I have also been researching, trying to find any natural options that might help me.

 

Thank you all so much for the tips. My game plan for now is:

- Research recommended books and websites and buy at least one over the weekend.

- Come up with other consequences besides spanking.

- Whisper instead of yell.

- Hug Therapy.

- Stay with him while he does his cleaning.

 

I will let you all know how it goes!

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You said, "On a more positive note, he is very loving much of the time, physically active, and insanely imaginative."

 

Except for the verbal delay part, your son sounds a lot like mine. He has a shirt that says, "I am DEFINITELY up to something!" that is so true.

 

My son is only 3, but I'll give you some of my thoughts anyway and you can make of them what you wish:

 

1. Go the park a lot (once your weather is nice enough--mine is nice already). Take a portable chair with arms so you can nurse comfortably if necessary. Four is young to worry too much about formal stuff. Take sidewalk chalk and draw letters. Make super-long hopscotch games to work on numbers. If it stops being fun, just play. Gather sticks to make a pretend camping fire. Talk about fire and what it's used for, how to be safe with fire, etc. Play dinosaurs and chase him around. Throw in facts about what dinosaurs ate, looked like, etc. when it fits. There is SO much you can do at the park that will keep him physical but still learning if you are creative.

 

2. I suspect 4 is too young to turn him loose to clean his own room. My friend with a very verbal 5-year-old who seems more like 6 is incapable of this. Give him one task at a time while you're nearby and make it a game whenever possible. Reward each task with a hug, kiss, tickle, goofy mom dance, or some silly phrase.

 

3. Make sure he gets lots of physical exercise! We have a mini-trampoline, chin-up bar (for swinging, pulling, or hanging), a sit-and-spin, and a Bilibo which make our days much smoother.

 

4. Use his imagination as a teaching tool. You can insert little facts here and there that will enhance his imaginative play. You don't have to sit down to do this, just talk!

 

5. Magic School Bus (or Clifford, if I only need 10 minutes) is awesome for when I MUST get something done without interruption. Does your son get glued to the screen like mine? That's how I shower. When he was under 2 I took him in with me with a pile of bowls/spoons/mini-bath basketball hoop/toys. He played on the floor and I got to relax. If your little guy isn't happy in other containment devices, try this!

 

6. Try not to yell. My guy tunes me out too, so I try to remind myself to put my hands on his shoulders and look him in the eyes when I need to get his attention. I often tell him, "Mommy really needs a hug!" when I want him to drop what he's doing and come to me. This non-threatening tactic makes him more willing to listen to what I have to say next.

 

7. Spanking is useless with my son. Time-in is what works. If he doesn't obey after a warning, he sits with me for 3 minutes. He HATES to be out of the action, so he usually shapes up quickly. I don't banish him to a corner--I sit with him, touch his shoulder, hand, knee, or head and gently discuss the issue with him.

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If you want to do more spontaneous learning activities, set aside a special shelf in your main living area (if you can) with activities he can do alone or with minimum supervision. I have clear plastic shoe boxes with pictorial labels that my son can pull out himself. I remind him a lot to "Pack up one, pull out another."

 

Here are some ideas:

 

Playdough, cookie cutters, plastic silverware, toothpicks, number/letter stamps & marbles (put 4 marbles on a glob of playdough, have him find the number and stamp it), small plastic animals (to make footprints), etc.

 

Stickers and sheets of plain posterboard to stick them to. Printed photos/drawings of scenery for him to decorate with stickers.

 

Lacing shapes

 

Magnifying glass and cool objects to observe

 

Leapfrog word builder

 

Calico Critters animal family for pretend play

 

Melissa and Doug scissors that only cut paper (not hair, clothes, or little brothers!) and a variety of colored papers to cut up. You can pre-print some shapes or animals for him to practice cutting out.

 

LEGOS

 

Matching games with his favorite characters (Cars, Toy Story, Curious George)

 

Puzzles (we like Melissa and Doug 12-peice wooden puzzles that come 4 to a box, but that might be too few pieces for you)

 

Rocks/sticks/leaves/pinecones/sycamore balls/feathers to sort and observe

 

Pony beads or beans rice and spoons/cups/small dump trucks

 

LED flashlight and glow-in-the-dark items

 

Wipe-off book with letter, numbers, mazes, etc. and dry erase markers. They make washable ones that come off clothing, but the colors aren't as vibrant. I use my cheap Wal-mart laminator to make my own custom ones at his level. The KUMON preschool books are great and cut them apart and laminate them for repeated use. We especially love the mazes.

 

If he is using small things, I have DS spread a small sheet on the floor to play on so we can clean up easily without having to pick up every bit by hand.

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It sounds like I need to go to the bookstore this weekend and start checking a few of these out. I am glad that I am not the only one who feels like the Pearl books are a little off. Any idea how I can explain this to my friend without being hurtful? I tend to be overly direct and all I can think of is, "I think you have been brainwashed by cultish hogwash...", which is obviously not what I should say...

 

 

FWIW, that's probably pretty much what I would say.

 

I have no patience for people who recommend the Pearls' methods.

 

None.

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Not for anything, but your little guy is only 4.

 

You may be seeing problems and issues that are nothing more than... well... he's a 4yo boy!

 

I think it's great that you're trying to find constructive ways to deal with things, and I admire you for admitting that you're not perfect and that perhaps there are things you should be doing differently, but here's the thing -- none of us is perfect, and it's all a big learning curve when you have kids. I'm sure most of us have gotten very upset about things that in retrospect were actually no big deal at all. It's so easy to fall into the trap of believing that if you don't read the right books and do all of these specific, wonderful things, your child will turn out to be a sociopathic delinquent.

 

I don't want to see that happen to you. You seem very nice, and I'm sure your little guy is adorable and wonderful, and is probably a lot more of a typical 4 year-old than you realize.

 

Try not to worry too much, and above all, IGNORE that friend. People who are true believers in the Pearls' philosophy will not provide you with a reasonable perspective of "normal" childhood behavior, and the discipline level is off-the-charts crazy. I believe that they even expect their infants to be incredibly well-behaved, or else there is punishment involved. Personally, I think the fact that you realize how insane this stuff is, is an excellent indicator that you're already a very good mom.

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As for the friend, thank her kindly and move on. Honestly, I believe spanking is much too personal of a topic to be discussing in public (a forum allows you some anonymity; but in real life, it just feels icky to me to hear that a kid has been spanked). I would handle all discussions with the friend in terms of positive, teaching-based, proactive discipline only. The Pearls actually do suggest such so you will have more to talk about if you discuss it with her at all. Certainly your friend is not just hitting her son every time he steps out of line, even when he couldn't possibly *know* he stepped out of line.

 

As for what YOU do? Consistency is KEY. A lot of people tend to teach kids not to listen until they yell, get frustrated, punish. There is an easy fix for this (but it will take a couple weeks of exhaustion to handle it....of course, it won't be any more exhausting than spanking him every time). Simply, say what you mean and mean what you say. When you give a directive, HAVE him comply. Don't say things three times, don't yell, don't offer punishment instead, don't spank or give a time out. Simply HAVE him comply.

 

"Tony, please put your glasses on," may need to include you handing him his glasses as you say it. Later, you may give him an opportunity to choose to comply, but you'll have gotten his attention, given the directive, and be ready to usher him towards his glasses if need be. If you do those things with EVERY directive, in time, he'll get that you have "mommy magic" and everything you says, comes true :) And shortly after that, you'll know he'll just put it on because he simply complies with what you say. Of course, then a few weeks later, he'll test to see if you still will follow through. You'll simply usher him towards his glasses and he'll see you most certainly do.

 

BTW, if you find that you are having to actually help him comply a lot or you try to move on and he doesn't show he's ready, take that as your mistake for misreading him and step back. He's FOUR. Seriously, NOTHING he is doing or not doing now has ANY bearing on how he'll be at 12 or 25. Promise. Just scaffold him the way HE needs. When he's ready for the next step, he'll just do it (kinda like potty training).

 

Another key tool is stopping the world. I have a five yr old foster son who doesn't want to do his peak flow meter for whatever reason. I have made it fun by letting everyone do it. I have given him silly goals like making it go through the window and being like superman. Seriously, come on kid. So it had to be set up in a way that he wanted to do it. "In order to do ANYTHING else (other than potty and breathe), you need to do this measure." Now, you state it in the positive like that. Don't say, "you can't X until you Y." You say "after you X, we'll Y if we have time." Or whatever.

 

Okay, but there were two tools I *really* liked in Love and Logic Magic (that is the one for 0-6yr olds).

 

One is to give the child an INSANE amount of choices. Give him as much control as you can give him in a way reasonable for him. And make a game out of it. How many times can you give him a choice? Do you want the red shirt or the yellow? Do you want the black pants or the blue? Do you want white socks or yellow? Do you want the light on or off while you change? Do you want the door open or shut? Do you want me to stay in here or go fix breakfast? Do you want oatmeal or omelets? Do you want berries with that? Blueberries or strawberries? Do you want a spoon or a fork? Do you want the spoon in the bowl or on the table or on your head? The point of this is to give him control over things that really should be in his control. We mamas have a BAD habit of saying no, making all the decisions, etc. Let him control his world. The other point is that the relationship is like a bank. You keep making these deposits and it'll hurt less and less when you need to make some withdrawls (some of the choices yourself). Seriously, if you have $50 in the bank, then the $47 water bill HURTS. But if you have $5,000 in the bank, you don't mind the $47 water bill so much. And once you have $500,000 extra dollars in the bank, who cares about $47 you forgot about til the last moment?

 

The second tool I liked was "uh-oh." Now the book says you can say "bummer" or a number of other things. But I have found that I cannot say "uh-oh" in anything other than a toddler teacher voice. Seriously. You simply cannot sound abusive with it! Well, my kids LOVED it also. It gave them the feedback they needed without causing them to tense up (my kids have trauma histories). They could stay in the moment rather than falling back to their old lives all because I said, "uh-oh" instead of a sharp "Tony." Pretty cool, huh? Now, the book pairs uh-ohs with punishment WAY WAY WAY too often in my opinion. It is short, gentle punishment, but punishment nonetheless. And unnecessary for the most part. Instead of punishing for making a mistake, fix it, figure out what to do better next time and move on. A great book to help littles learn how to do better next time is Raising a Thinking Child by Myrna Shure.It is basically a problem solving curriculum you can do as a "circle time' of sorts (or at supper or whatever) with kiddos. It is FUN and easy and can be done by a two year old (though the better they talk, the better they can actually DO it).

 

Okay, long enough. Hope this helped at all :)

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I have been calling around trying to find a therapist of some variety, and finances have been the biggest road block. If I find anything remotely affordable, I will definitely go down that path. I am not a private person, and I have no shame in going for help. I will admit that I am scared to death of drugs, but I am beginning to wonder if I have no choice. I have also been researching, trying to find any natural options that might help me.

 

Thank you all so much for the tips. My game plan for now is:

- Research recommended books and websites and buy at least one over the weekend.

- Come up with other consequences besides spanking.

- Whisper instead of yell.

- Hug Therapy.

- Stay with him while he does his cleaning.

 

I will let you all know how it goes!

 

I think that you should at least see your doctor, and find out if you are clinically depressed. Remember- you don't have to be on medication forever. But it can help you at least think clearly enough to get out of the rut and get your life sorted out. I don't remember if you said where you live, but if you're in the northern hemisphere and you aren't getting much sun, vitamin D drops (the liquid, not the pill) can work miracles.

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FWIW, that's probably pretty much what I would say.

 

I have no patience for people who recommend the Pearls' methods.

 

None.

 

:iagree: They advocate whipping infants with plumbing line. That right there is enough for me to reject their ideas. Any person who condones that has no idea what they're doing with their children, period.

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My dh and I are extremely conservative, homechurching Christians.

 

I have read "To Train Up A Child".

 

I do NOT think the book gives any useful advice. Quite the opposite; I think that book is awful, damaging, horrible, and should never be recommended to anyone. Same goes for "Created to Be His Helpmeet" by Debi Pearl.

 

Others will give you good advice about what books *are* good; I liked "Bringing Up Boys" by Dr. Dobson as a nice insight into having sons. Don't know how helpful it would be for discipline. I guess I don't have any great books to recommend on that, except the Bible.

 

I just wanted to caution you AWAY from "To Train Up A Child".

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Run away screaming from anyone who supports the Pearls' methods.

 

Period.

 

Just RUN.

 

I don't know if the person who recommended the Pearls book really needs to be completely avoided. FWIW, the woman who gave me a copy of TTUAC is a wonderful, Godly older woman. She has four grown sons who are all great Christian men. Honestly, I was SHOCKED when I read the book that this woman would recommend it to me. I can only assume that she never actually read and/or implemented many of the suggestions with her own children. I don't really know the backstory there. I just know that this woman and her family are loving, Godly, wonderful examples, and I have no idea how or why she recommends the Pearls book.

 

To be sure, I would be wary of someone who recommended that book to me who I didn't know well. But some people pass along a book, blog, website, etc because they're heard it recommended by *others* without necessarily having full knowledge of all the content, IYKWIM.

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Is he language delayed in a way that needs an evaluation and speech therapy?

 

For my son, he's severely language impaired, and i have to work around that. I use (and am learning how to actually teach him to use) picture cards, signing, asking simple questions, etc.

 

You can google language and autism (gives the best ideas).

 

I agree with everyone else about getting yourself treated. You can't do much if you're depressed.

 

If you don't have one, you need a routine.

 

I would avoid yelling and dont give him an opportunity to ignore you. Talk to him at eye level, get eye contact first.

 

I have more, but have to run for now.

 

 

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My friend is a woman who's baby is 1 month old, and believes that she has found in this book the answer to all parenting woes. She is also dedicated to Babywise. I feel for her, because I was very dogmatic as a young mom that first year too, although in my case it was Dr. Sears! I thought that attachment parenting would be the answer to everything. Both approaches can become legalistic if you ask me. What I am learning is that there are no hard fast rules. Each child is different and strict adherence to a specific philosophy doesn't work for me. Still I am trying to have compassion for her, because she means really well.

 

As for the language delays, I am not sure how severe they are. Most people think that he is pretty normal, and it is possible that my standards are overly high due to my upbringing. I was reading at age 4, able to sing a tune in front of church at age 3, and debating Clinton vs. Bush at age 5. That said, I am going to talk to his pediatrician about it...and just make sure.

 

I have to say, y'all are a special group of women to go out of your way to write such lengthy, helpful posts with so many ideas!! Believe me, I will be reading over these again and again and putting many of them into practice.

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Nothing really to add for you Emily. You've gotten some great suggestions. :grouphug: Parenting is not for wimps.

I found that kneeling down and taking a child's hand and looking them in the eye is a great way to make sure I had their attention.

My boys are now almost as tall as me. But they still hear "eyes" and know that I need them with me. :)

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I don't know anything about the book being mentioned here so I can't comment on it. I have always followed Growing Kids God's Way with mine. It does not advocate exclusive spanking- we use a mix of things. The biggest help of all from the GKGW series is the idea of non-conflict training. Setting aside a time each day to role play behaviors goes SUCH a long way. I use the time to talk through whatever we're focusing on, model acceptable/unnacceptable responses to commands, explain Biblical principles behind what we do (works best with ages 4+), discuss consequences (so they know what will happen). This is so much more effective than trying to get through to them when they are upset after having been disciplined.

Regarding room cleaning specifically, I found a timer to be extremely helpful when they were in the 3-5 yrs window. I used to set it and say you have 5 min to clean up X...then 5 min to clean up Y...bit by bit. At first it is too overwhelming to just say "clean your room." Now my 5 & 7 yr old can be told that and they are fine. But from time to time I still have to set the timer if they are moving slow. This helps them get a feel for working dilligently and keeps me from hovering over them. I just set it and walk away.

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FWIW, a 4yo won't be able to clean anything without you doing most of the work. You are in the training stage. Your job is to teach him how to clean so that when he's ten, he will be able to do it on his own. You will be training for years.

 

I would focus on capturing your 4yos heart and having fun with him. Once you have tied those heart strings, you will find training is so much easier. 4yos naturally want to please.

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OP - One thought I had from reading your post describing your son: I wonder if, once your second child was born, your first son suddenly seemed so much older and therefore in your mind, capable of more than he truly should be doing? Hmmm...that was very wordy.

 

Here's my own personal example: My oldest daughter had a lot of expectations on her even at the young age of 4 simply because she had younger siblings who "bumped" her up in my mind. Does that make sense? We have to be very careful to not put more on our older children once a younger sibling comes along. We ask ourselves the question, "If this child did not have a baby sister/brother, would we be expecting him/her to clean the room by himself? Stay totally focused without us there?" Almost always the answer is 'no'.

 

As others have said, 4 years old is so, so young. They still need our presence at this point, leading and teaching, training (not Pearl-type) and encouraging. Your son is a lamb, still, not ready to be out doing what the big sheep do. ;) Try not to be frustrated by his childishness because he is, indeed, a precious young child still.

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I really enjoyed the book Shepherding a Child's Heart by Tedd Tripp. I am re-reading it now that I'm expecting a second child and think I am getting more out of it this time than the first time. I appreciate that it covers not just dealing with my child's behavior but also with my issues that impact my effectiveness as a parent (I.e controlling my emotions, being consistent, extending more grace, etc)

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Get Charlotte Mason's first book in her series, on kindle(or the Kindle Cloud Reader so you can read it on the puter) or the book.

 

A bunch of other moms and I are reading it together, and though I read it when I first started homeschooling many years ago I didn't quite pay enough attention. If I were to go back and write a book about parenting and homeschooling, it would sound like this book.

 

It is very attachment parenting oriented.

 

Stay away from the Pearls.

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FWIW, a 4yo won't be able to clean anything without you doing most of the work. You are in the training stage. Your job is to teach him how to clean so that when he's ten, he will be able to do it on his own. You will be training for years.

 

I would focus on capturing your 4yos heart and having fun with him. Once you have tied those heart strings, you will find training is so much easier. 4yos naturally want to please.

 

:iagree:

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You are probably right that my expectations went up a lot when my second son was born. My attempt to get him to start cleaning his room independently wasn't until he had been reliably able to clean with me supervising and directing for about a year. I figured that it was time for him to graduate to phase 2, because having to walk him through the entire process is keeping me from being able to get done the things that I need to be doing. The other thing about it is that he will clean his room when Daddy tells him to, so I think that the capacity is there. And yet, obviously what we are doing is not working, and I need to try something new. Maybe I just need to accept the fact that he doesn't have the attention span to clean without me in the room, and try again in a couple of months.

 

I will keep what you said in mind though, because I am sure that has been a factor.

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I figured that it was time for him to graduate to phase 2, because having to walk him through the entire process is keeping me from being able to get done the things that I need to be doing.

 

I'm saying this gently, and it's easy for me to understand since I've had four 4yos, but sitting with him while he's cleaning his room is one of the things that you need to be doing. I know how hard it is to have only littles. I know how hard it is to be pulled in too many directions at once. But, like a PP said, just b/c you have more things pulling at you doesn't magically make your little guy more independent and capable. He's still a little 4yo. You still have years of training ahead of you. Try to slow down and breathe so you can enjoy some of those years. Your goal is to get both of you to the other side with your relationship intact, and preferably, stronger than it is today.

 

 

My most favorite parenting book is Parenting With Grace by Popcak. The CM recommendation above is fantastic as well.

 

 

Do you specific issues that the Hive could help with? You have a huge pool of wisdom and BTDT advice sitting right here. My first, specific recommendation regarding the room cleaning would be to have a routine where you both stop everything else and pick up his room. Every day, maybe even twice a day. If you stop the mess from getting overwhelming, it won't overwhelm either of you.

 

My other specific advice would be to have a meal plan. Pick 5 breakfasts, 5 lunches, and 5 dinners. Rotate through those 5 meals Monday-Friday. Every week. Start there and see how you feel in a few weeks. FWIW, I rarely thaw meat before dinner. Part of my routine is to throw the meat into the microwave while I empty the dishwasher.

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The friend giving you parenting advice has a one month old baby?!?! And you're worried about what she thinks? Has she tried the methods? Is her one month old more compliant since using the methods in the book?

 

I've never read or looked at the book, and i dont plan to just based on posts on this board.

 

I dont think you need to worry about pleasing your friend.

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