Readying a struggling student for the logic stage...what needs to be mastered, what to use? (cross post)

[mo2]

If you had a child that you wanted to start logic-stage work in the fall, but who needed some serious catching up, what materials/methods would you suggest?

 

For math, I have purchased some of the MM blue topic-based books and we are currently working on mastering the multiplication tables.

 

I have decided to wait on grammar until the fall and start with Hake 5. I did some checking and it seems as if it doesn't require any previous knowledge of grammar. Will that be good enough?

 

For history, I am having her read A Little History of the World to get a general overview, and in the fall we will start from the beginning with a new history rotation.

 

For science, right now we are just reading some "fun" books like Fizz Bubble and Flash, Mysteries and Marvels of Nature, etc. I plan to start Elemental Science Logic Stage Biology in the fall.

 

For spelling, we are plugging along with AAS, just about to finish level 2. Will keep going with this.

 

Writing is a big problem area. Right now I'm thinking I will just continue with CW Aesop, doing lots of copywork, narration, and dictation, but this is subject to change if anyone has a better suggestion.

 

Basically, I'm asking what needs to be mastered before entering the logic stage, and how would you go about readying a child for it? We are dealing with a late/struggling reader with slow, hard-to-read handwriting, who has trouble getting anything down on paper. Any suggestions?

[Mommy22alyns]

I may be wrong, but I think "logic stage" has more to do with an individual child's development, not necessarily age or grade.

[mo2]

Yes, you're probably right. So how do you know when to start logic-stage work? What are signs that a child is ready? What skills need to be mastered?

[MerryAtHope]

With regard to a writing program, I'd wait until after AAR 3 to start a formal program. At that point they have mastered about 1000 words, have done longer dictations, and have started the Writing Station, which has them write sentences using some of the words they know. This will help make the transition to a writing program easier. I think it's plenty to focus on Reading, Spelling, Grammar, and some casual writing (with the emphasis on Reading & Spelling). I'd also make sure you are reading quality literature aloud daily to your child.

 

You'll get there. Keep going at your child's pace. Merry :-)

[mo2]

With regard to a writing program, I'd wait until after AAR 3 to start a formal program. At that point they have mastered about 1000 words, have done longer dictations, and have started the Writing Station, which has them write sentences using some of the words they know. This will help make the transition to a writing program easier. I think it's plenty to focus on Reading, Spelling, Grammar, and some casual writing (with the emphasis on Reading & Spelling). I'd also make sure you are reading quality literature aloud daily to your child.

 

You'll get there. Keep going at your child's pace. Merry :-)

 

Thank you, Merry. And thanks for the tip about AAS having a writing station; I didn't realize that. We are almost there---We're on step 20 of AAS 2.

[dancingmama]

I'm so glad you posted this. I actually had to check to see if I had written this since I am in the same boat. I will be starting my 10 year old in the Fall in the Logic stage and trying to figure out what I need to do with him to make sure he's ready. The writing is the most difficult for him. I started him on Writing Strands 2 as he is so far behind. It's only been a week and seems so slow going but at least he's not complaining.

 

FYI, AAS does not have a writing station. It's the AAR that has it. We are in AAS 3 right now and have noticed a huge jump in my ds ability to read. Not sure how your son's reading is but my son's is behind. We were moving pretty quickly through AAS 1-2 but he have slowed down considerably with 3.

 

I'd love to hear what other people's thoughts are on how to get a struggling 4th grader ready for the Logic stage. We just started doing WTM last month so I have "catching up" to do.

[mom2att]

I'd love to hear what other people's thoughts are on how to get a struggling 4th grader ready for the Logic stage. We just started doing WTM last month so I have "catching up" to do.

 

 

Being "ready" for the logic stage is totally developmental. It's like helping a child learn to walk--you can lead them around all day, but they'll walk when they ready, period.

 

Please don't think that just because a child is 10 or entering 5th grade or whatever that it's time for the logic stage. The grammar stage is all about mastering basic skills, the logic stage is about applying those skills when the brain is developmentally ready to start thinking more deeply.

 

How to best get ready for the logic stage? Work diligently in the grammar stage. Work with your child's skill set, and if there are areas of difficultly, concentrate on those. Whether s/he enters the logic stage at 10 or 14 doesn't matter--you can't force what the child is not yet developmentally ready for.

 

My oldest is a very typical learner and a quick study. She has passed into each new stage "on time," just like she's done most things in her life. My second is 12 and halfway through 6th grade. I'd say he's in the very beginning logic stage, though there are still certain skills we are working on. My 9-year-old 4th grader? I'm not even thinking about the logic stage for him. We are still just trying to get through a math lesson without one of us falling apart.

 

Don't worry about "struggling" and don't worry about "catching up." Just teach him where he is and keep going from there. That will take him where he needs to be, in his time.

[Hunter]

Some students need explicit and basic grammar style instruction for a long long time. When I was a young mom, I barely skimmed the grammar section when my boys were teens; that was a mistake. 1 1/2 decades later with my own self-education and tutoring students, I don't know if we will EVER be DONE with the grammar stage. Yes, we do some logic and rhetoric level activities, but...the grammar stage language arts section section especially (I use the 1st edition), is the foundation and just takes a long time for some families, especially 1st generation homeschoolers.

 

For many 1st generation homeschoolers the best thing they can do is ATTEMPT to finish MOST of the grammar stage, then do some serious work in the logic stage during the late middle school and early high school years while STILL working on the grammar stage activities they are still struggling with , and then to merely play and sample within the rhetoric stage where the child shows any gifts as they individualize for where the student will be going next.

 

As for running 4 year cycles, many students are better starting their 1st basic history cycle for grades 3-6, and then to start another for grades 7-10 and then do a typical American and British Literature cycle. I prefer to do geography/folk/myths, the Middle East/Bible, and American history/literature/biographies for grades 1 and 2. Some 1st generation families would be better with extending my plan for grades 1-2, then do just one combined grammar/logic TWTM history cycle that would probably take more than 4 years, and then do American and British literature, never losing sight of the importance of mastering all of the grammar stage skills.

[Cosmos]

FYI, AAS does not have a writing station. It's the AAR that has it.

 

 

I think you meant the other way around? AAS does have writing station beginning in Level 3.

[dancingmama]

My bad about the writing station. Apparently we're not quite there yet.

 

I did read the crosspost and that helped a lot. So again, thanks for posting this. I can see my children both starting in the direction of the logic stage. Both asking the "Why" questions for example. "Why did Japan attack Pearl Harbor?" was a question that was just asked today. The problem is his skill set isn't quite there yet. After reading a bunch it seems like the best thing to do is continue with the skills (for example we'll stick with Writing Strands even though he's only in Level 2) but have him verbally express some of the things he should be writing and I'll write for him. His fine motor skills are awful and may never be up to par so we'll start typing to help. Is that correct? I see the wheels turning now that I know what I believe I'm looking for.

[mo2]

Dancingmama, the posts with things to look for helped me a lot too. My dd is very argumentative lately, trying to bargain and negotiate with me, and needing to know the reasons behind everything I say to her. It hasn't so much carried over into her school work yet, but I think it will soon. So I think, like you, the best thing to do is keep working on the skills from the grammar stage but proceed verbally with the some higher-level stuff. I wish there was a way to fast-track the skils but I don't think it works that way. :)

[Pen]

Not logic stage, but there are logic related materials for younger children, things like Venn Diagram puzzles, sudoku, Balance Benders, and so forth. Many are visual and require no reading or very little, and only limited math. Also games like chess help build logic skill IMO.

[happycc]

Hmmm...."very argumentative lately, trying to bargain and negotiate with me, and needing to know the reasons behind everything I say to her"

 

I wonder if my 3.5 yrs old might be entering logic stage already :bored:

 

Logic stage kids are so preschoolerish! I am dreading to see what my 3.5 years old child will be like when he is a preteen. YIKES!

 

 

No seriously I wonder if there is a difference between logic stage behavior vs. logic stage academics?

Does the behavior come first and then the academics?

Some kids are seriously born argumentative and stay that way for the rest of their lives...how do you know when they are in the logic stage?

 

Would someone please develop a logic stage assessment test?