Getting fed up with dd's carp... Added stuff, need help

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Dd refuses to do more than one thing in a day. Yesterday i needed her to help pick up her room because she'd been making a lot of cardboard gerbil toys. And she decided to take ALL of her clothes out of the dresser and put them under her bed! We just cleaned her room this weekend.

 

I did not tell her to go clean her room. I gave her specific and easy tasks. Pick up the trash, dirty clothes in the bathroom, etc. I was right there checking on her every few minutes and helped here and there. It never got clean.

 

She procrastinates so much that she rarely gets gets more than a couple basic subjects done for school.

 

The problem is her stupid ipod. She lives for this role playing site. She runs up to 10 threads at a time. But I've read her threads. There is nothing of quality written on her part. I was going to include this site in her school, but it lacks just about everything (creativity, spelling, grammar, a purpose, etc).

 

Here's where I'm conflicted: we live in NE PA. There is NOTHING to do from about December 1st until February, and even then only a few hour long activities (this place is awesome in the summer). So when she whines that this site is her contact to the outside world, she's not lying.

 

But now she has a lot of stuff! Once a month sibshop, once a month young adult club, once a month lego club, once a week book club, once a week volunteering at the library, once a week in home therapist, once a week speech, and once a week occupational therapy.

 

The condition of my car, the cost of gas, and my income excludes activities that are not local and free.

 

Then i have to deal with her night behaviors. She whines and has a tantrum at 8:00 when the ipod comes to me. She sneaks sugar and salt to eat. Eats leftovers (we had spaghetti with meat sauce for dinner. She had a man sized serving and seconds. There was no reason for her to eat another bowl full!) and leaves everything out. She refuses to brush her teeth. She fights showering (even during that time of the month).

 

She's provoking and over reacting to ds so i look like an idiot because ds yells at dd and what do i do? Yell at her, too. :(

 

In general, her attitude and behavior is not attention seeking. It's escape/avoidance, and tangible. She wants to be left alone with her ipod, art, or gerbils, and not do anything i ask.

 

Yes, she's 12, asperger's, and a girl. I get it.

 

Now the big problem. Ds has a board certified behavior analyst starting soon. His behaviors WILL be changing. I cant make this home peaceful if I'm battling a pre teen at the same time. I've got a few weeks to reign her in. She MUST learn to listen to me with unquestioning obedience (and i HATE that idea) in order for things to work. (I never wanted them to listen to any adult like that because i was taken advantage of when i was 5 and thought I'd get in trouble for not listening to him if i refused. I could not teach mine the same and it's backfired big time. They don't listen period.)

 

This has to happen because ds's behavior is going to skyrocket. I'm going to target his cursing with extinction. If dd refuses to listen, I'm not going to be able to get her away from ds at planned moments without escalation. And because of his other problems, it has to be "secret" between dd and i.

 

If i know that in 5 minutes, i have to transition ds to something else and they're playing together, i have to get dd away first, but ds will not tolerate me just separating them. It'll be "code" commands like telling dd to go brush her teeth, or put her laundry away.

 

I know this sounds crazy, but ds WILL get physically aggressive during extinction, and i want to keep dd safe. Ds doesn't (always) mean to hit her, so if i take dd out of his path, it'll be protecting them both.

 

Dd has started using lines that other people say regarding ds, especially lines from my father. It's getting to me. It's making me feel bad for poor dd. it's not rational or logical on my part, but she's making it work.

 

Every single adult working with dd knows she manipulates me and all of them are trying to get me to not feel guilty, but it's not working. I go back and forth from wanting to run a boot camp to letting her have free range of whatever.

 

This is not all new. She's always been so sweet that she gets her way, and she appears to take so much from ds that i fail to address her.

 

What do i do with her? When it looks like dd is in boot camp and ds is just lounging doing whatever, how do i keep going when dd points it out? *I* know that ds's house running is coming to a halt and that things will be improving, but how do i convince dd of this? Does it even matter if she's convinced? Should i run some extinction on her behaviors? Tell my father to knock it off and quit feeding her crap? How tightly scheduled can i get dd to work? How do you handle serious defiance and procrastination?

 

Things have gotten this bad because until recently, dd didnt have tantrums. She got her way by adorably manipulating. Now that her pre teen attitude is showing, it's easier to see that I've got huge problems with her.

[dbmamaz]

ugg, wish i knew. my daughter, who probably had some undx'd issues, was an angel until 11 and then became just evil towards me. i ignored it and she became more and more evil. She is living with my mom right now and we are totally out of contact. I do think I probably should have been more strict with her, demanding that she behave in more acceptable ways, not allowing her to be so cruel and manipulative. Part of the problem was that the first therapist i took her too just totally identified w dd, dd was lying to her and manipulating her all the time . . . and she really seemed to believe that dd was only like this because I wasnt doing enough to make her feel loved . .which is still what dd thinks, even tho she cusses me out and destroys things i care about and I dont do anything to her at all but drive her to doctors appointments and say how excited I am when she accomplishes things and stuff.

[chiguirre]

Can you sit her down and agree to what you'll say when you want her to go to her room and get out of the way of a meltdown? Geezle and Trinqueta just went to my room when I told them to because they knew what GW could do. It helped that they could watch TV in there while they waited for the all clear.

 

School work is tougher to address. T's not always thrilled with work. But, I've explained that she's required to do school work by the state of Texas, it's her job. She can choose to do it at home on a flexible schedule with lots of input about curricula and 1 on 1 attention when she has questions or she can haul herself to our local public school and comply with their requirements. She's always opted for the rational choice and buckled down and done her work. It's getting easier to motivate her as she gets older and hears her peers moan about school all the time.

 

Good luck! Dealing with 2 kids on the spectrum is exhausting.

[dmmm]

Can you ask the behaviorist for advice regarding your dd? I think you both could benefit from some reigning in.

 

I have a 9 yo dd aspie and she is manipulating too. She does it to get out of things that stress her out, although it seems like she is just trying to get out of doing work.

 

I have been working to see what her triggers are (spelling and writing are huge ones). Today we started a new way of schooling. I made a set time for each subject and clear goals of what work needs to be done. I set the timer and if she finishes before the time is up, that time is hers. She can accrue time for whatever she wants or use it right away. She can only do one reward a day though, so she can play minecraft ONCE, but it is her choice to break her time up for other things or to use the whole block for it. (she chose to take a bath for 10 minutes and then play minecraft).

 

Today is our first day and so far so good.

 

Do you think something like this could work for your dd? Then it would give her concrete times that she could use her ipod or play with her gerbils?

 

Good luck with everything.

[Faithr]

I don't know. Maybe I am completely off the mark here, but I don't like behavior modification as a child rearing technique. Maybe it is the only thing that works for some? But frankly I think it is adults trying to manipulate their kids. Then when their kids are smart enough to manipulate back, it is seen as disobedience and bad. I think I identify with the kids wanting to have some control over things and trying any which way they can to get it. If someone is always trying to force you to do something you hate, wouldn't you try your darnedest to get out of it? I think it is a natural human reaction. I think when you come at it from that perspective it helps you feel a camaraderie with the child. When you start with that attitude, it seems like it is a lot easier to figure out a way to communicate. You are on the same team and you are there to coach her on to winning!

 

The best way to short circuit preteen and teen conflict is to focus on bonding with the child. Can you get your dd in a comfortable place so you can talk to her? Tell you need to get ready for ds's therapy and that means on a certain signal she needs to run to her room or whatever. And then do role playing where she practices responding to your cue. It could even be fun maybe? I mean like a new way of you and me trying to live with him ( the brother who is loved but very diificult to live with)

 

I don't live in your world so I don't know if I am helping or not. Sorry if this useless. But I am cheering for your success!

[PeterPan]

I have to say I agree with Faith. When I read your comments, I assumed you were talking about a young dc, say age 7, because absolute obedience, clean your room with me watching, etc. would be goals then. With a 12 yo, sorry, it's past. Gone. I'm with you on the peaceful home, but you can't go back and repeat age 5, and that's when that stuff happens.

 

Why does she have to use a teeny, tiny ipod to get the social connections she wants? If she wants to live in another world, I don't know the psychological stance on that (given how much time we all spend on the boards, hehe). However it seems to me you could be *proactive* on that, helping her discover more productive web interests.

 

Does she have any non-NT friends? Someone else can comment to this, but I think in general non-NT may hang better with other non-NT. A penpal would do.

 

I cleaned my dd's room when she was little, but I don't clean it anymore. The time is really past for that, kwim? As far as the sneaking food, yes dd did that, and for a long time actually. She may have been legitimately hungry. These kids ARE growing a lot, and a dinner of white flour spaghetti (was it white? maybe rice or spelt instead?) with a dab of meat in sauce wouldn't hold some kids.

 

Maybe it's time to work on some home projects that you can do together? It can be really simple, like come help me make muffins cuz we're having breakfast for dinner. Can be more complex like making a craft or redecorating a room and choosing paint color. Aspies tend to like repetitive behavior, right? Is there any project you're needing to do that has a repetitive component?

 

Hope you can get it sorted out and get good counsel. You need methods though that pick up where you are, not try to take her back to 5. That will just provoke her.

[Pen]

I'm wondering if something like giving her a copy of Sean Covey's 7 Habits for Teens book could help.

 

I'm not sure about the "unquestioning obedience"--it seems like now is the time to be developing adult life skills and gradually gaining independence.

 

Personally I would take away the IPOD. I would insist that the room meet sanitary minimums so that the whole house does not become a problem (no moldy food left, for example). Otherwise, close the door and let it be her problem. Specify a minimum of work (both chores, schoolwork, personal hygiene) that must be done before other special activities can be done. I'd insist on the food she takes out being cleaned up out of fairness to rest of household, but I guess personally I don't understand why it is a problem to get a snack after meals are done.

[chiguirre]

I have to say I agree with Faith. When I read your comments, I assumed you were talking about a young dc, say age 7, because absolute obedience, clean your room with me watching, etc. would be goals then. With a 12 yo, sorry, it's past. Gone. I'm with you on the peaceful home, but you can't go back and repeat age 5, and that's when that stuff happens.

 

 

 

 

When you're dealing with asd kids those are not unreasonable goals. Back when they were 5, most of us were working on skills most kids get automatically as infants or toddlers.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I have a lot to reply to, but my brain is just not there right now. I'll try and respond tomorrow.

[Faithr]

Since I am in the throes of trying to clean my 14 yo son's room this week and since I don't think my response above was very clear, I thought I'd add even more of my 2 cents (about all it's worth anyway, no matter how much I add! LOL).

 

First off, I have a question. If you were indeed giving her distinct tasks and supervising, etc why didn't the job get done? I do this sort of thing too, where I think I am supervising but I haven't really supervised to the extent I needed to, to complete the job. I am distracted and doing other things and I just assume that my kid(s) can get stuff done faster than I thought. I am not realistic. Often when this happens (and I don't let my frustration color things) I'll just say: Enough for now. Looks like we bit off more than we can chew today, so we'll have to finish up tomorrow. I go through and state what was done and how great that is and then I state the tasks that still need to be done. No nagging, no judgment, not scolding, just stating what's done with a high five for getting it done and then stating what still needs to be completed.

 

My 14 yo just got diagnosed this summer, but we've always known he was different. I just thought he was extremely ADD. But I can compare him to his older brother and younger sister and I can see the big difference in executive function when it comes to little tasks. I can tell my 11 yo dd to go clean her room and she can do it. Now she very likely will stop and read a book she uncovers, or look through old drawings she did, or like yesterday find a little sewing kit someone gave her a couple years ago and stop cleaning and start sewing! LOL. Sewing is a lot more fun than cleaning apparently. But I know she is capable of cleaning it all up herself if she was in the mood. Same with my older son. So normal kids need close supervision too because they want to avoid work they don't enjoy just like every other person on the planet, except they are immature because they are kids. So they need lots of cajoling and tasks broken down so it isn't overwhelming, etc. But for kids who are different, on top on those regular things, they really have trouble.

 

So I notice, Amo, that you have two kids and one is very autistic and one is Asperger's and high functioning? So maybe perhaps you are assuming that the 12 yo can handle more than you think? I don't know, because again I don't know you! But I'm just wondering. I can compare and see the difference between my 14 yo and my other kids who aren't Aspergers and see a huge difference in capability. And we have noticed this since he was a boy. For instance when my kids were all smaller and would all help me tidy, my 14 yo was always my 'runner.' While I could tell the other kids to go off and do something, I always kept him close to me and gave him very specific instructions, like "put these books in the bookcase. Or put these toys in toy box, etc. And even then he'd often say 'what am I supposed to do?" So yesterday when were we cleaning his room, his job to was to tell me what to do about certain things. For instance we got under his bed and pulled out his collection of Game Enforcer magazines. Keep them or chuck them? He decided to chuck them. We went through his clothes and did the same thing; keep? chuck? After we'd done those things, I did give him very specific tasks but I never left room so I knew that he did it. I told him to put all the books in the bookshelves nicely. I told him to go get the vacuum for me and bring it back to the room. Take the trash bag out to the trash can, etc. Every time he did something, I'd say, thanks, honey. A lot of the time though he laid on the bed and we chatted. And several times, he said, thanks mom for cleaning my room. So it was actually tension free and a bonding time. We didn't get it all done, but we did get his bed area, his dresser, the bookcase and all the junk that had piled up in front of the bookcase completely organized and dusted. Today we tackle the closet and the desk.

 

So this is what I meant by making bonding the primary focus. You are still teaching discipline by modeling and having them work right alongside you. You are still in charge. You are the manager and get to direct things, but you are not being bossy or creating tension, instead there is a feeling of camaraderie, of working together, of helping each other.

 

Now I don't often pull this off so well, but yesterday was a good day. We actually had fun cleaning his room. When I can get myself into this frame of mind everything always goes smoother.

 

That's why I said instead of seeing the issue with your 12 yo as something where she's got to be 100% obedient, you can also approach this scenario in a gentler way. By creating that bonding so that if you do need her to scram out of the room because ds is going to be very difficult, you can make it into a secret or a special cue between you two.

 

Again, don't know if I am being helpful! But I wish you the best.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I'll try to answer most stuff. If i miss something, just day/ask again.

 

The food- i made pasta with meat sauce for dinner that night. 24oz pasta with 2.25 lbs of meat and some sauce. Dd ate PLENTY of it. Had she decided she was hungry, made a snack, and at least moved the bowl, i wouldn't have much of a problem.

 

My problem is the constant night snacking. The sneaking of sugar and salt and spices. The sneaking and eating in the living room (big NO!) or bringing things to her room. She ate an entire container of fake bacon bits in one night (she bought with her own money, but that's a lot for one night!).

 

Her room MUST be kept clean due to her allergies. It's non negotiable. It wasnt done that day because i couldn't even get her to pick up a single item without major nagging and reminders.

 

I clean her room weekly, but it just went to crap so quickly that I'd expected her to help.

 

I expect way too much and too little at the same time. I've got to work this out.

 

In some ways i do have to treat her like a 5 year old. I still have to condition and comb her hair because she doesn't do it well.

 

The 100% obedience is as it relates to ds for dd's SAFETY! If she argues with me about walking away, she will be hit by ds. I AM WORKING on this. It is unacceptable for him to hit, but i cant do anything when dd refuses to get up and walk away when asked.

[Lecka]

Maybe she thinks he is the one being bad and she is the one getting in trouble.

 

This has been a sign for me to focus my efforts on the child being bad. Not the child I think could more easily change their behavior.

 

My son is not going to injure my kids such that it hurts more than a small while, though. He is little enough he can be fended off.

 

 

[Faithr]

But won't she naturally want to get away from him if he'll hurt her? Is she scared of being hurt by him? Or does she not reaction quickly to these things? If she knows you are asking her to walk away to protect her wouldn't she want to go quickly? Why would she not see you asking her to leave or giving her a quick code word or motion as a way that you are helping her? Can she not process that? I guess I just don't understand the scenario.

 

If she has cravings at night is there any way you could come up with a couple things that would acceptable for her to snack on before bed? Some people just do want a little snack before they retire. Again can this be framed in a way so that she sees you as not denying her something but trying to help her do the right thing? Something like: "honey, I know you get a little peckish before bedtime but sneaking food is bad for you and you shouldn't eat junk/heavy food before sleeping. Bad for sleep and the tummy, but you can have (fill in the blank) or (fill in the blank)". Just an idea. . . .

[Lecka]

Is she winding him up or egging him on before he hits her? Or is she just there?

 

I have had both. It was getting bad for a while and I put one of my kids in after-care, and segregated them to different parts of the house.

There was no default of them being together without my permission. I only had to do this a few hours in the evening, when my one son had had a full day, and my other was tired. So not too hard. My daughter was never a problem and could go where she liked.

 

It is not the best but it kept them from fighting. Behavior is better lately and I don't need to do this, but I know warning signs and I am quick to separate them. I make sure to give my older son a lot of attention and try not to let him feel he is being punished. He can feel like that easily and will respond by negative feelings toward his brother. I can't stand that and preventing that to a reasonable degree is very important to me.

 

I have just started ABA and am tracking only one behavior. We put what happened before, during, and after.

 

I am possibly just projecting, bc I have realized I have let things slide with my son and felt like I wished everyone else would tiptoe around him. But that does not even help my son, bc I think he is smart enough to see my actions and figure that must be normal in our home, unless I change my action.

 

My son is only 4 though, so I am not sure how helpful it is. I don't think I have a guarantee of him not hitting when he is older, so I think I could have this situation someday, maybe.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

But won't she naturally want to get away from him if he'll hurt her? Is she scared of being hurt by him? Or does she not reaction quickly to these things? If she knows you are asking her to walk away to protect her wouldn't she want to go quickly? Why would she not see you asking her to leave or giving her a quick code word or motion as a way that you are helping her? Can she not process that? I guess I just don't understand the scenario.

 

If she has cravings at night is there any way you could come up with a couple things that would acceptable for her to snack on before bed? Some people just do want a little snack before they retire. Again can this be framed in a way so that she sees you as not denying her something but trying to help her do the right thing? Something like: "honey, I know you get a little peckish before bedtime but sneaking food is bad for you and you shouldn't eat junk/heavy food before sleeping. Bad for sleep and the tummy, but you can have (fill in the blank) or (fill in the blank)". Just an idea. . . .

 

Your first part is what baffles me. She provokes him until he hits her. You'd think she'd do everything possible to get away from him! However, he is half her size so I think she just doesn't care because it's rare that he'll actually hurt her.

 

I will make her an evening snack bin with rules (one piece, clean up, etc). She snacks out of boredom, so eventually I'd like to change those habits.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Here's where I lose my patience with her.

 

First thing i see in the morning is the tv on. She was told no screens, but there's a movie on. She did not even bother to turn it off to hide it.

 

Then i walk through the dining room and see a case of water. That means she left the house! Yes, there was water in the house.

 

Then on the kitchen floor is the open and now empty peanut butter container and lid.

 

On the counter is smeared peanut butter and cocoa powder.

 

In the sink is 7 dishes related to her pb and cocoa creation.

 

I'm sure there is sugar all over the inside of the cabinet.

 

I grab my coffee and sit in the chair and find a bottle and tack on the piano bench. There's no eating or drinking allowed in there!

 

Her pants were left on the bathroom floor with 5 pad wrappers!

 

She is driving me nuts.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

And there's more...

 

She took dirty clothes out of the washing machine (we use it as a hamper and i keep up with laundry) and dumped them all over the floor.

 

She left her gerbil ball in the sink.

 

She did not shower.

 

She did not brush her teeth.

 

Her art kit is open in the upstairs hallway.

 

Her door is closed (told to keep it cracked open so it doesn't get too cold for her gerbils).

 

There are two pictures off the wall in the hallway.

 

I think she does need to be treated like a 5 year old! I'm considering making her sleep on the cot in my room for a few weeks to be sure she goes to bed.

 

This is all why i need to focus on her before ds. Ds may scream and curse and everything, but he's generally more compliant. He loves bathing and brushing his teeth. He argues about going to bed while climbing up to the bed! If he gets up before me, he just plays quietly.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

She's officially retreated to her own world, and i don't know how to get her back.

 

I think the autistic brain + puberty is doing a number on her.

 

Help! Anyone?

[Twinmom]

My DD lost her mind around 12 and has yet to fully regain it...I am sorry, I know this age is SO hard!! She seems to forget everything, get sloppy, eat too many carbs (I think this is a attempt to help her with mood swings...) and generally sulk around. It's part hormonal, part her issues. I do remember DS30 going through the same thing in his preadolescence, and he did grow out of it by around 15-16! To a certain degree, we have to suffer through it. To another degree, I choose to hold beloved privileges (phone, Internet, activities) hostage until I get compliance...depends on the issue and how important it is to me.

 

As for the ABA: We have a similar problem at our house with getting THREE boys away from DD when she is having a meltdown. It's crazy...two of them have spectrum issues and one just simply talks.too.much! They drive her crazy and she will curse at them or hit them during a meltdown. Getting them to move away seemed like a punishment and a curse until the magic words, "go play Wii" came out of my mouth one day. Then, moving when told became a privilege rather than a punishment. Now, when they need to leave somewhere because of DD's meltdown, I make sure it is rewarding to them to do so. It's not always the Wii...sometimes smaller good things...but there is a reward, even if only a verbal one. They feel like the ones in control now and are rewarded accordingly.

 

Don't know if this will work in your situation, but I HTH. I always get better results around here with a carrot rather than a stick.

[Tiramisu]

Okay, amo, I have to tell you, reading your description of the whirlwind left behind this morning, I think I have your dd's missing twin. I'm not kidding. I could relate to everything you mentioned, except the pads since we haven't reached that stage yet, and just substitute lizard for gerbil. The lizard is now in the bath with soap. Gotta do damage control... :auto:

[ktgrok]

teen aspies are HARD! ugh.

 

I would say no ipod until schoolwork/chores are done. Period. End of story. No "just this once" things, because with Aspies they need clear cut lines. That's my best advice.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

The ipod is gone now because of this imaginary world she's retreated to. I will not give her ANY access to anime or this role play website.

 

She refuses to answer me unless i call her some strange name. She walks around completely imitating this character's personality. It would be fine except that she doesn't turn it off when needed.

 

I'm going to see if her therapist is ready to do some community stuff. Dd is completely gone, socially.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

She's in the world of teen/preteen anime. Not unusual; our library has a group that meets weekly. They dress in character, including the furry tails. If you want her in a different social group, you'll have to provide access.

 

How about getting her a scholarship onto a sport team at a local church?

 

 

If we had something like this, i could let it go! That sounds awesome!

 

No sports around here outside of ps and cheer leading. The cheer leading team is way too serious.

 

The Y should have some new stuff starting, I'll see if i can get her into anything.