Kindergarten & counting

[mamamindy]

Okay, my K'er is just playing with the rods with some Miquon, education unboxed, and we've done a bit of MEP Reception. (We've taken a break from that a while though.) I have been waiting a bit to start SM 1a with her. (Her sister does it, and she's really only just starting to write recently, so that is why I hadn't started her as well.) She is bright and seems to "get" math, we're just not in a rush.

 

Today, my children were playing hide-and-seek with their Grandma, who is a kindergarten teacher... She is concerned that my child (5yo) doesn't really count past 29. She thinks she should be able to count to 100. She started drilling her on counting by 10s. Did I miss something?? We really haven't done much counting in SM. I've also tried to also show them both the asian way of counting past 10 (as well as the english method) as this seems to help them understand. But no, neither of my girls are really counting very high and I didn't think it was important at this point. I do think they would be able, but we hadn't encountered it yet in the material, so I figured it wasn't important at this point. When I said to my MIL, no she doesn't really count that high, she responded with, "Well, this is kindergarten!" Like, get a move on, teach to her to at least count! I really hope I haven't dropped the ball on this one. A year ago, when we were working on Saxon math (and hating it) with her older sister, we all counted using the 100s chart a lot, but the numbers didn't seem to mean much to them. It was a lot like the alphabet song (not saying that isn't important) and it was memorized. I assumed that there was a reason that it hasn't been introduced yet in the materials we use (and like) now.

 

Wondering if I'm the only one who hasn't taught their K'er how to count?!

[nmoira]

I don't think learning to count on is a problem, but neither do I think it's of particular benefit if the child doesn't understand what the numbers mean. I use MEP with my youngest, and it doesn't move past 20 until Year 2. She figured out how larger numbers work (i.e. groups of ten) based on her work within 20.

[blondeviolin]

Both of my older two could count to 100 before starting K, but it wasn't anything I explicitly taught. My current 5yo can say the sequence of numbers, but is often tripped up by place value and all that. Just because he CAN count past 100 does not mean he grasps how much 63 really is. He will be "building" a lot of numbers with rods before I'd think of moving him into Singapore 1b. (FWIW, I haven't even started 1a with him.) For reference, Singapore 1b does move into adding two-digit numbers. I would make sure your girls are firm in what makes up those numbers before requesting them to add them together...but that has nothing to do with the ability to count to 100. :)

[Arboreal TJ]

She only needs to count 0-9, the rest is place value. My boys simply say "get to 9, change kind" and move on.

 

A short lesson on place value will solve the grandma problem, if you feel like addressing it, if not then chin up you are doing great!

[IceFairy]

My 5 (and a half) year old counts to 100 by 1's, 5's, and 10's by memorization....but our specific curriculum has put a strong focus on it, in between addition and subtraction facts... so he has just learned along the way.

[NicAnn]

Mine, just turned five, can count to 100 by 1s and 10s. However, she has not needed to actually use it. It's just something I taught her in the car one day. I'd not worry about it. I think when it comes to homeschooling everyone has an opinion on what the kids should be learning.

[mamamindy]

Thank you all.

 

I was unclear that she actually can count to 100 by 10s. (She learned via a song - even my 3yo sings it.) But, she isn't sure what to do past 19, or if she gets to 29, when counting on. She can't remember the next number. She does not know place value. I am guessing this is okay and normal at her age.

 

 

For reference, Singapore 1b does move into adding two-digit numbers. I would make sure your girls are firm in what makes up those numbers before requesting them to add them together...but that has nothing to do with the ability to count to 100. :)

 

 

This is what I was thinking. I am certain DD1 understands higher numbers - we use the rods - but we sometimes "simmer" in a topic (using the rods) until I am sure and we're ready to move on. Thank you. DD2 hasn't even begun SM1a yet.

 

She only needs to count 0-9, the rest is place value. My boys simply say "get to 9, change kind" and move on.

 

A short lesson on place value will solve the grandma problem, if you feel like addressing it, if not then chin up you are doing great!

 

 

Thanks for saying this. :) It's sort of a lost cause "explaining" something to grandma, since this is her territory - been teaching kindergarten for 30 years.... sigh. However, her school is trying to make a curriculum switch to SM currently... She's pretty confused how to teach this in her K classroom. In her defense, she has testing standards she has to meet that are not addressed by the curriculum they've given her. I am so thankful that I don't have to worry about standard testing!!

[amselby81]

My 6 year old K'er can count to 100 by 1's (although she sometimes skips over the 40's), by 5's, and by 10's. But I think it's b/c we do SO much math. We memorize skip counting with Classical Conversations, and then we use the Math U See blocks when we do MUS, and then we do number lines and charts with Horizons. I think that if I was only using one math curriculum, we would probably have some troubles. And I love the MUS blocks. They really solidify the concept. She understand place value b/c of MUS. She is very good with math and number concepts, but I can't say the same for her reading. :/ Every child has their strength and weaknesses.

[boscopup]

My oldest taught himself, but my middle son needed to be taught to count past 10. I used a 100 chart, much like the way Saxon K does it in their morning meeting - emphasizing the tens and ones, using straws and bundling the tens, using coins and exchanging 2 nickels for 1 dime, etc. I did this at age 4. I didn't really emphasize skip counting out that point. I just emphasized place value, as that is incredibly important and foundational to math. Once we got into the 30s, something clicked, and DS started counting to 100 on his own. He'd recognized the pattern. Then he started adding double digit numbers mentally. He does skip count by 5s and 10s to 100 now, partly because of Life of Fred.

 

I don't remember any counting to 100 type practice in Singapore. We've done EM K and 1A and just started 1B. That may be one of those things they assume the teacher has done already. I don't know. At any rate, I'd get out your 100s chart and practice each day, greatly emphasizing the place value rather than rote memory of how to count. They'll figure out how to count once they understand the place value, because it really is quite easy - count to 9, then change the ten. The hard part is remembering that 3 tens is thirty, 4 tens is forty, etc.

 

I can see why your MIL was concerned. When my oldest was in K, the ONE thing they had to learn in K mathwise was counting to 100. They used Saxon K, so there really wasn't much addition/subtraction or anything like that. It was more counting stuff. They had their big assessment at the end of the year to determine if they were ready to move on to first grade, and counting to 100 was the main math thing on there.

 

Now while I don't think you necessarily need to follow what the schools do, I do think that understanding place value should be one of the first things taught, and I personally wouldn't go very far in Singapore without teaching it explicitly.

[ByGrace3]

We are using RS A which teaches place value really well. Counting without understanding place value is not super helpful. That said, through our K curriculum, my ds who is 5 has learned place value and how to count to 100 by 1's, 5's and 10's. I do think that would be a goal of mine for K even if the curriculum didn't teach it. Every child is different, but for K I would think they should be working toward that. I know Saxon 1 placement test asks the child to count to 100 so the assumption there is they can do that before first.

 

I certainly wouldn't panic, your child will learn to count ;) I also think it comes down to those who believe in formal math for K. I know many don't, I do. I believe k should be fun, but very intentional. Everyone is different with different goals though. Decide what your goal is and rest in it. Others don't know your child like you do.

[pitterpatter]

I'm confused...did your older DD know these things in/before starting kindergarten? What did you use to teach her? She's using SM 1A now, right? Besides briefly touching on counting to 100 and grouping tens, 1A doesn't really teach skip counting and they spread dealing with numbers to 100 over a year's time...through 1B. Did you use a K math curriculum with her? That's where DD learned those things (we used SM Earlybird A & B). I think it might be helpful for your second DD to learn them before starting 1A so she already has a familiarity with them before getting bogged down my all of the new concepts in 1A. Even if she forgets a little skip counting, it will come back to her more quickly as she progresses through SM 1, which doesn't really emphasize skip counting, but it is a helpful tool...makes things easier.

[mamamindy]

Thanks again for the suggestions & support.

 

I really am not concerned with her ability to count 1-20 (which is all that is worked on in SM1a, and she's not even using SM yet.) I was mostly unsure (concerned?) with counting (beyond the numbers she understands conceptually) when it wasn't meaningful. (Ie. Our memorization of the 100s chart last year.) And I really appreciate your suggestion of focusing on place value (which is what I had already started, on a hunch that this was the route to take) to help her understand what the numbers she was counting mean. I am still not totally sure how to do teach place value.... (As we haven't explicitly encountered it in SM yet, and like I said, I'm not even using SM or really and specific curriculum for K math, although I find it important to introduce math concepts at this age...) It must be obvious (?) that I wasn't taught math in this way - although I've received a BS & "performed" well in math classes - and I've never been confident with numbers. I am learning along with my DC. :)

 

ps. I'm in the process of taking a look at the ed unboxed vids on place value so that may prove to be our godsend. Yet again. ;)

[mamamindy]

I'm confused...did your older DD know these things in/before starting kindergarten? What did you use to teach her? She's using SM 1A now, right? Besides briefly touching on counting to 100 and grouping tens, 1A doesn't really teach skip counting and they spread dealing with numbers to 100 over a year's time...through 1B. Did you use a K math curriculum with her? That's where DD learned those things (we used SM Earlybird A & B). I think it might be helpful for your second DD to learn them before starting 1A so she already has a familiarity with them before getting bogged down my all of the new concepts in 1A. Even if she forgets a little skip counting, it will come back to her more quickly as she progresses through SM 1, which doesn't really emphasize skip counting, but it is a helpful tool...makes things easier.

 

 

I'm referring to DD2. She's in K. We aren't using a curric, just math games. However, she tags along with DD1, using SM1a, via listening and playing conceptual games with her. (I used Saxon 1 with DD1, but we only got partially thru before abandoning it and just moving on to SM1a.) I think DD2 could do the work in 1a, but is only recently started writing more, so I was considering starting it up with her. Yep, we should definitely work on counting first. ;) Although we didn't mesh well with Saxon, it did hold my hand and explicitly told me what she should know, etc. I feel so new!!

 

ETA: Perhaps I do need to have a curriculum for K so that I will know precisely what they ought to learn before moving ahead? I have thought for at least DS, something to perhaps guide us and get us prepared for SM 1a. Any suggestions for K math curriculum? I did not like Saxon, we have MEP, but it isn't as easy for me to teach as SM. Which SM K is preferred? My MIL is actually using one of them in her classroom (not sure which) currently and hates it....?

[mom2bee]

Some kids count to 100 as toddlers, others don't. Its nothing to lose sleep over. If you are using a curriculum and it is working for you, then by all means, use that curriculum. Now, if the curriculum never covers place value and numbers larger than 29...maybe you will want to switch out of it, when your DD is ready. There is half of Kindergarten left, your probably going to be getting there soon.

You can practice skip counting --its very useful for multiplication and for arithmetic in general. I encourage that kids learn large numbers and place value early on, but I only like learning things with substance and meaning. Unfortunately, many times you just gotta let kids "simmer" on stuff for a while. No problem.

 

Get a 100's chart and some counters for your kids.

 

 

Granny might like some bean dip, while your DD moves at her natural pace towards understanding the numbers and what they mean. :glare:

 

I'm one of those grinches that abhors the alphabet song and prefer my students not to learn it for the sake of being able to sing it. They can sing "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" -- same tune, just as empty of meaning. No false impression of knowledge.

 

I introduce letters as needed to teach reading to very young children. I am the same way with numerals.

[Paige]

The public schools in both states we've lived have really push counting to 100 by 1s, 5s, and 10s in kindergarten. I bet your mother has been taught that it is a very basic kindergarten skill just like ABC's and sight words. I would just tell her that your DDS curriculum has a different scope and sequence.

[kitten18]

Thanks again for the suggestions & support.

 

I really am not concerned with her ability to count 1-20 (which is all that is worked on in SM1a, and she's not even using SM yet.) I was mostly unsure (concerned?) with counting (beyond the numbers she understands conceptually) when it wasn't meaningful. (Ie. Our memorization of the 100s chart last year.) And I really appreciate your suggestion of focusing on place value (which is what I had already started, on a hunch that this was the route to take) to help her understand what the numbers she was counting mean. I am still not totally sure how to do teach place value.... (As we haven't explicitly encountered it in SM yet, and like I said, I'm not even using SM or really and specific curriculum for K math, although I find it important to introduce math concepts at this age...) It must be obvious (?) that I wasn't taught math in this way - although I've received a BS & "performed" well in math classes - and I've never been confident with numbers. I am learning along with my DC. :)

 

ps. I'm in the process of taking a look at the ed unboxed vids on place value so that may prove to be our godsend. Yet again. ;)

I don't really have an opinion on the counting to 100. I don't really think it matters one way or the other at that age.

 

I just wanted to say I love the education unboxed videos and they are fantastic for showing place value using the rods. :thumbup1:

 

 

I was also going to mention that if you think she's ready (and it sounds like she is) to start 1A to go ahead and not let handwriting hold you back. My DS is 7 and I still scribe for him (do almost all the writing in his workbook for him). He's finishing 1B and his math understanding/ability is FAR, FAR beyond his handwriting endurance. ;) We also took 1A really slow, spent almost a year on it, and he has done 1B in about 2 months.

[ByGrace3]

RS A does an excellent job of teaching place value. We are just finishing it up and moving onto MM1A.

[mamamindy]

Again, I just want to say thank you for all the encouragement. I had really begun to think that my worst fear - forgetting something major in their education - had already happened! And they're only in K & 1st! :crying:

 

I think I will begin SM 1a with her, continuing to play with the rods and learning from the ed unboxed videos - they are awesome! We have a 100s chart, counters, tons of manipulatives... Mostly, I'm going to try to stop freaking out that I am going to majorly mess up somewhere!

[Tracy]

I think it is very telling that most 1st grade curricula start with counting instruction.

[pitterpatter]

I personally think it's easiest to start at the beginning so you know that you covered your bases...even if your DD ends up flying through K. Many things were very easy for DD when we used the K curriculum, but I was surprised how many little things she didn't know or really know that I just assumed she did. We used SM Earlybird when DD was four. We loved it...it was perfect for her and I at that age. I believe most people here prefer SM Essentials K, though. I understand it is structured more like 1A/1B. It is less expensive as well. I don't know how far along you are in 1A yet with your older DD, but it can get pretty challenging for kids when they get to adding and subtracting numbers through 20. There are tons of posts about kids getting stuck there. That would be the primary reason I wouldn't rush into it with DD2. It might be a bit daunting for her first math curriculum experience...even for a bright student.

 

I'm referring to DD2. She's in K. We aren't using a curric, just math games. However, she tags along with DD1, using SM1a, via listening and playing conceptual games with her. (I used Saxon 1 with DD1, but we only got partially thru before abandoning it and just moving on to SM1a.) I think DD2 could do the work in 1a, but is only recently started writing more, so I was considering starting it up with her. Yep, we should definitely work on counting first. ;) Although we didn't mesh well with Saxon, it did hold my hand and explicitly told me what she should know, etc. I feel so new!!

 

ETA: Perhaps I do need to have a curriculum for K so that I will know precisely what they ought to learn before moving ahead? I have thought for at least DS, something to perhaps guide us and get us prepared for SM 1a. Any suggestions for K math curriculum? I did not like Saxon, we have MEP, but it isn't as easy for me to teach as SM. Which SM K is preferred? My MIL is actually using one of them in her classroom (not sure which) currently and hates it....?

 

[mamamindy]

Thank you again for suggestions!! :)

 

I don't know how far along you are in 1A yet with your older DD, but it can get pretty challenging for kids when they get to adding and subtracting numbers through 20.

 

I really appreciate you clarifying this. However, this is exactly why I think DD2 would be (possibly) ready for SM 1a. She has done all the work with addition through 20 conceptually (mostly using rods) and knows/understands the symbols (+, -, =) we just haven't done the written work. I haven't really been pleased with SM K program (from what I've seen - I haven't actually used it - and Saxon wasn't to our liking either, so that is why I was trying to do more of my own thing for K math. I'd read in TWTM that this was an acceptable approach to K math...which initially led us to take that route.

[Tanikit]

With my DD I started with both Horizons K and Singapore 1a almost at the same time and moving faster through Horizons K than through Singapore so that we started Singapore 1b as she finished both 1a and Horizons K. This worked very well - I could break in Singapore to make sure she knew the teen numbers and understood place value. Horizons K does emphasize counting to 100.

 

I don't think that counting to 100 is that important - if it was then why do we stop at 100 - why not go to 1000 or higher. Place value however is important and can be taught usually with numbers up to about 31 (and this in itself is a purely arbitrary choice).

[pitterpatter]

Well, you could always give it a shot then. See what happens.

 

If writing is an issue, you could do most/some of it verbally. Sometimes, just to break things up for DD, she works math problems with these.

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=melissa+and+doug+numbers

 

I don't like that the addition sign is yellow, so I turn the multiplication sign and use it for addition.

 

http://www.learningresources.com/product/magnetic+boards%2C+set+of+5.do?sortby=ourPicks&sortby=&&from=Search

 

I don't think you can get this magnetic board as a single anymore, but you could just use a cookie sheet, small magnetic dry erase board or whatever.

 

We use extra "1" magnets as the bond lines to create number bonds when working problems on the board. DD works the problems just like on paper, just with magnets. We line up the number magnets in numerical order on the table so they are easy for her to see and grab.

 

 

Thank you again for suggestions!! :)

 

 

 

I really appreciate you clarifying this. However, this is exactly why I think DD2 would be (possibly) ready for SM 1a. She has done all the work with addition through 20 conceptually (mostly using rods) and knows/understands the symbols (+, -, =) we just haven't done the written work. I haven't really been pleased with SM K program (from what I've seen - I haven't actually used it - and Saxon wasn't to our liking either, so that is why I was trying to do more of my own thing for K math. I'd read in TWTM that this was an acceptable approach to K math...which initially led us to take that route.

 

[Paige]

If you kind of like Singapore but aren't thrilled with it's implementation, you might like Math Mammoth. My K does it with paper and pen, but it is easily adaptable to being done orally on the floor with manipulatives and a white board.