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Classical Conversation families: Challenge B for 9th grade high school?


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We are considering CC for our family next yer. We have been happily using TOG for the past 4+ years, but I need a change -- and we all know how true it is: If mama ain't happy......

 

I think TOG has prepared my son for much of what is presented in Challenge I, but I do think that he will find the writing a challenge for him -- especially the frequency. I do think that the literature selections in Challenge I in general look pretty "easy" but after talking with the Challenge I tutor (and friend), I think what CC is doing with the literature is worthy of a 9th grade English credit.

 

Since my oldest has never been in CC before, there is a part of me that wonders if we should just do Challenge B next year. In general, I think my son is a good student (not great, not gifted, but a good B+/A- student) who is ready for high school.

 

I guess I am writing all this to ask if anyone with experience at the Challenge level can comment on the Challenge B vs 1 for high school 9th grade. What would need to be added to get to a high school level if we did B? BTW, we are already ahead of CC in science -- my son is about 1/2 way through physical science right in 8th grade.

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Well, you have to look ahead and figure what you want on your high school transcript...

 

Challenge B Latin = Latin I (1 cr.)

Challenge B Math = Pre-Algebra or Algebra I (1 cr.)

Challenge B Logic = Formal Logic (1 cr.)

Challenge B Current Events / Mock Trial = Debate (1 cr.)

Challenge B Literature/Short Stories = English 1 (1 cr.)***

Challenge B History of Science/Origins = History of Science (1cr.)***

 

***These would have to be beefed up IMHO for high school credit with more reading/assignments if you're looking at more competitive college admissions. That said, I don't think that most of the kids at our campus added anything, but most here go to community college after Challenge I or II.

 

And of course you would need a high school science on your own.

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We are considering CC for our family next yer. We have been happily using TOG for the past 4+ years, but I need a change -- and we all know how true it is: If mama ain't happy......

 

I think TOG has prepared my son for much of what is presented in Challenge I, but I do think that he will find the writing a challenge for him -- especially the frequency. I do think that the literature selections in Challenge I in general look pretty "easy" but after talking with the Challenge I tutor (and friend), I think what CC is doing with the literature is worthy of a 9th grade English credit.

 

Since my oldest has never been in CC before, there is a part of me that wonders if we should just do Challenge B next year. In general, I think my son is a good student (not great, not gifted, but a good B+/A- student) who is ready for high school.

 

I guess I am writing all this to ask if anyone with experience at the Challenge level can comment on the Challenge B vs 1 for high school 9th grade. What would need to be added to get to a high school level if we did B? BTW, we are already ahead of CC in science -- my son is about 1/2 way through physical science right in 8th grade.

 

 

These were exactly my thoughts last year as we contemplated the same thing...exactly. I really had a hard time choosing between challeng 1 and challenge b, but ended up deciding on challenge b and have not regretted it. We had not previously studied Latin either, and for that reason and logic, it has been a much better fit than challenge 1. The logic is hard. That is not to say that we didn't add a few things to my dd14s curriculum to make it more "9th gradish".

 

The cc literature selections are easier than I would have preferred, but the discussions and papers were not, i was pleasantly surprised. I ordered Notgrass World History to continue with history study and she is required by me to read the recommended literature assignments that go with it. She isn't writing the papers because she doesn't have time, but we talk about the lit and she does the history quizzes and tests for comprehension. That has rounded out literature for us quite nicely.

 

The science seminars are very good. The research papers have gone really well, but it has been hard to get past the "we need to be doing labs" mentality. Truthfuly, this is the type of research that should be incorporated in science learning, but there just isn't time to do it all, but they are learning it here, they are learning the concepts well as they learn more about the scientists. Again, since I can't leave well enough alone...she is slowly working her way through Apologia biology at home...with the labs ;) So by the time this year is over she will have learned great research skills, introductory chemistry, and half a year of biology. Next year in challenge 1 she will get further reinforcement of physical science(that she took in 8th) and finish biology, so that she will have a good foundation of science before we send her off to do dual enrollment.

 

I do think she is the only kid in her class that has extra work at home, but all of them have been in CC for several years and are in it for the long haul. My motives for her to do CC were strictly for the group atmosphere, discussions, debate, and presentations. Stuff I simply can not replicate at home. I needed the support too. It is very non traditional and doesn't fit neatly into the transcript boxes, but it has worked out great so far.

 

Another thing that would make a big, and I mean huge difference is the class dynamic and the tutor. Some tutors are more demanding than others, dd has an excellent tutor. I could see that had she had a more lax tutor, I would not be nearly as satisfied. Also the ages of the kids in the class can be a factor. Dd's class has mostly 9th grade aged students with a small handful of younger kids. If the class would have been all younger kids, again, I don't think I would have chose that. Visit the class and get to know the tutor, then visit the challenge a class to scope out what kids might be in challeng b next year.

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Now, that being said, my friend is still mostly happy with her decision to join CC. Her girls have an organized curriculum to use, so they know what they are doing week to week (something my friend has struggled with a LOT), and they are getting a lot done, whereas the last couple of years they have gotten very little done. So, for my friend, CC is meeting her goals, even if the program (locally) isn't as rigorous as she hoped.

 

 

Yes, CC has a valuable niche that way. It keeps some homeschooling through high school who would quit or wouldn't do as good a job. For some, the package deal is a huge blessing because it frees them from the planning and some of the accountability. I know families who completely turn the Challenge work over to the teen so that they are only minimally involved during the week.

 

On the flip side, I knew that we were in trouble when I decided to outsource Latin from Challenge B and up because I wanted to keep mine on track towards AP Latin. I knew that the way it was being taught locally wasn't going to do that. Then I found myself doing more and more teaching during the week and demanding higher quality than the tutor did. Even with a very good tutor, I had to be on mine constantly or the quality would not be what they were capable of. They would sink to the lowest common denominator, which was fine with the tutor but not with me. And what about all of the time and effort I was spending while paying someone for one day a week?

 

Then a year ago it finally dawned on me that we needed to do our own mix-and-match for high school. The classes and how CC does things just wasn't right. I can appreciate that it was right for some, but it wasn't working for us. And having only one in Challenge A this year has been great. I'm much happier directing high school myself. It has allowed for a much more customized curriculum balanced for the particular student.

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On the flip side, I knew that we were in trouble when I decided to outsource Latin from Challenge B and up because I wanted to keep mine on track towards AP Latin. I knew that the way it was being taught locally wasn't going to do that. Then I found myself doing more and more teaching during the week and demanding higher quality than the tutor did. Even with a very good tutor, I had to be on mine constantly or the quality would not be what they were capable of. They would sink to the lowest common denominator, which was fine with the tutor but not with me. And what about all of the time and effort I was spending while paying someone for one day a week?

 

 

This is EXACTLY why I decided to pass on my local Challenge 1. When we were going to meetings last year for Challenge 1 starting in the fall, my son was already doing the work the other students wouldn't be starting until Sept, and it was clear to me the tutor was going to attempt to lower the level down (which she did, it's TT instead of Saxon and some video course instead of Henle). My son would have been skating by with no effort, while someone told him it was all good. Exactly the last thing he needed.

 

CC has, IMO, a structural problem that I don't know how they can overcome. They don't charge enough for professional teachers, yet they don't want more than 1 class in Challenge outsourced. The material is a LOT for one person to keep up with (which is why so many of us outsource things in highschool). I am certain some can do it, but for most people (myself included) I think that it would be nearly impossible to keep up with all of that material to the degree that you are running things at the level that you we would like.

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The tutor dropped Saxon math and they are doing TT instead, she does not attempt to hold students accountable for work undone, she has dropped the debate portion altogether, she has 1 lab kit for all 7 students to share (lame, IMO, considering how easy Apologia labs are to kit up), and she doesn't seem interested in making the class anything but easy. I would have been pulling my hair out, as my friend has told me.

 

 

When I was looking into CC it became evident to me that as an organization it's biggest weak spot was little or no oversight of HOW the local programs were actually being executed. Which means that while they have a program written on paper, what you are actually getting could be quite different in practice. Those I talked to about this in metropolitan areas (where there can be a large number of the same CC levels) are quite clear: The tutor makes the biggest difference. Some CC programs are run in the way that it's laid out in their official scope and sequence, others are a LOT more fluid.

 

 

FWIW, while I know that I did the right thing on passing in this CC class, I would sign-up in a heartbeat if there was a tutor with a more rigorous attitude, even if I had to drop my son down a level below what I know he is working at (really, he could do Challenge 2, but I would go as low as Challenge B, and just have him do different math/latin than the rest of the class, for the right tutor).

 

 

It is disappointing to read this. CC tutors are contractually supposed to provide the seminars as specified in the curriculum. They are not allowed to drop Saxon and switch to TT. The discussion/debate portion of Challenge is a very important part of the program. Again, dropping debate should NOT have happened. I would agree with you about the lab work, too. Why not give everyone an opportunity at hands on work?

 

As with any class, tutors/teachers can make or break the experience. We have an excellent Challeng program in our area--one that follows the curricula guidelines.

 

 

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As with any class, tutors/teachers can make or break the experience. We have an excellent Challeng program in our area--one that follows the curricula guidelines.

 

Yes, this is key. People make incorrect assumptions. If you outsource, you need to ask a lot of questions and be clear on your goals.

 

I think that some look at the curriculum, and assume that the curriculum is the program. And of course that isn't true anywhere in education. So much depends on how the curriculum is used. Plenty of teachers and professors ignore the book and either teach the material even better than it is presented, or do their own thing.

 

Or they assume that by paying for a class that you're getting an expert. And of course that isn't always true among paid professional educators either. I know of several professors at community colleges who were fired because they were found significantly wanting in terms of their academic knowledge. One had faked all of their degrees.

 

And they think that by paying for an outside class that there will be grading and oversight like most of us had in K-12th. And that isn't always true. I once took an online college class where the professor disappeared for the last month and didn't grade anything. An "A" appeared on my record, but the online gradebook had empty entries. And despite my complaints, that professor continued to work for that college.

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It is disappointing to read this. CC tutors are contractually supposed to provide the seminars as specified in the curriculum. They are not allowed to drop Saxon and switch to TT. The discussion/debate portion of Challenge is a very important part of the program. Again, dropping debate should NOT have happened. I would agree with you about the lab work, too. Why not give everyone an opportunity at hands on work?

 

As with any class, tutors/teachers can make or break the experience. We have an excellent Challeng program in our area--one that follows the curricula guidelines.

 

It was very disappointing for me as well when it became apparent in the meetings that the tutor wasn't going to really be doing what was in the program. My son, while not massively gifted, is somewhat ahead of other kids his age and does fine academically. What I most wanted for him was the community experience of others also working hard academically.

 

I think that the CC has a LOT of potential. When I was looking into and trying to decide whether or I emailed and talked to a lot of people across the country and it is clear to me that it works very well in a lot of places. I think that the CC org just has a problem with no substantive oversight of their tutors. They may be contractually obligated, but in reality there is no recourse for the parents if it doesn't happen. Perhaps, eventually, CC will realize they have this problem and do something about it.

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I think that the CC has a LOT of potential. When I was looking into and trying to decide whether or I emailed and talked to a lot of people across the country and it is clear to me that it works very well in a lot of places. I think that the CC org just has a problem with no substantive oversight of their tutors. They may be contractually obligated, but in reality there is no recourse for the parents if it doesn't happen. Perhaps, eventually, CC will realize they have this problem and do something about it.

 

If you begin formally evaluating and overseeing, you need more infrastructure and formality. Implementing more extensive performance appraisals for directors including a mechanism for parental feedback would be a big step for them to take. Given the pay structure and time involved to do that, I understand why it hasn't happened. CC counts on a certain level of informality and volunteerism to keep going. And that has both good and bad points of course. You would have to move further towards running like a school as less like an educational services company.

 

Bottom line, people who want an expert teacher may or may not get that with CC. That is why they are called tutors. They are not necessarily people with professional-level academic background and teaching skills. Some will do an excellent job and follow the rules whether anyone is watching or not, and some will take advantage of the lack of oversight to do their own thing. You might get someone who has really worked to learn Latin and considered how to teach foreign languages, and you might get someone reading from the book and answer key. If you want a teacher who knows their subject throughly, who grades work, and that is being monitored, that will require going elsewhere and probably paying more. Two very different scenarios.

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Bottom line, people who want an expert teacher may or may not get that with CC. That is why they are called tutors. They are not necessarily people with professional-level academic background and teaching skills. Some will do an excellent job and follow the rules whether anyone is watching or not, and some will take advantage of the lack of oversight to do their own thing. You might get someone who has really worked to learn Latin and considered how to teach foreign languages, and you might get someone reading from the book and answer key. If you want a teacher who knows their subject throughly, who grades work, and that is being monitored, that will require going elsewhere and probably paying more. Two very different scenarios.

 

I don't think it's either/or. I think you can have some amount of oversight and parental feedback, which puts reasonable pressure on the tutors to do their best with the classes and adhere to the syllabus, without the expectation of professional-level teaching. (BTW, the tutor for our local Challenge is also the BIO professor at the local community college)

 

While I do have SOME amount of sympathy for the volume of work and study that is required to do this well and the relatively low level of pay involved, I also feel strongly that no one made them sign up to tutor this program and that they agreed to do a certain job for a certain pay and they should do everything in their power to honor that.

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From what I've read (and how I am approaching CC) the CC tutor is not meant to replace the parent/ teacher -- even at the high school level. I'm not expecting an expert in any of the six subjects that I'll be paying $1100 (less than $200 for each class, which is a bargain considering most online classes are $300-$400 a pop). In fact, the tutor is for the most part introducing weekly topics that the parents are going to have to continue the discussion/ teaching at home (except for the Literature; my friend who tutors Challenge 1 says the students read the selection then come to class to discuss what they've read).

 

My husband and I just finished the first of several discussions about CC Challenge B vs. 1. I do think that the CC community here is really very good. I do know the Challenge 1 tutor, and know that she is very, very good. The director is also top-notch. Seems like we have a rule following group compared to some of the stories shared here. :)

 

I appreciate the food for thought regarding the Challenge program.

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From what I've read (and how I am approaching CC) the CC tutor is not meant to replace the parent/ teacher -- even at the high school level. I'm not expecting an expert in any of the six subjects that I'll be paying $1100 (less than $200 for each class, which is a bargain considering most online classes are $300-$400 a pop). In fact, the tutor is for the most part introducing weekly topics that the parents are going to have to continue the discussion/ teaching at home (except for the Literature; my friend who tutors Challenge 1 says the students read the selection then come to class to discuss what they've read).

 

It sounds like your expectations and understanding of the program are indeed reasonable.

 

And some of the popular online classes are actually going to run you $500-600 a year for one subject, but you have an entirely different model there.

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Angela or others,

 

OK, have you known anyone who has chosen Challenge B for high school over Challenge 1? Have you known any students who came into Challenge 1 never having CC before? As I mentioned in my original post, we come from TOG, and my son is used to challenging reading and challenging discussions -- he's not used to as much writing as CC schedules, but that is OK -- it will be good for him, and is closer to what I expect for high school than not (although there is not WAY we wrote a paper every two weeks). Assuming a decent or better tutor, how did the child fare? I honestly have a decent expectation of CC (see my most recent post), and don't want to debate the quality of the tutors in this thread. :)

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We've seen it both ways. Our campus has a number who come in as 9th graders into Challenge B from the local Christian school. IMHO they need that though because jumping from Abeka in the classroom to CC is a big change. And there have been a few over the years who go directly into Challenge I, and they seem to do fine as long as they have had some level of writing and research before. Challenge I has a good mix of lighter and more heavy books, so it is a step up.

 

Of all the years, we're actually least fond of Challenge B in terms of the books and seminars other than Mock Trial. I gave my youngest the option of not doing Challenge B because of that. I currently only have one in Challenge A, and I didn't want to be doing taxi duty unless there was a lot of interest in it. And they said no. I do like Challenge I a lot, but don't know if we'll do that or not when my youngest is in 9th. I wouldn't do it for 8th.

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Angela or others,

 

OK, have you known anyone who has chosen Challenge B for high school over Challenge 1? Have you known any students who came into Challenge 1 never having CC before? As I mentioned in my original post, we come from TOG, and my son is used to challenging reading and challenging discussions -- he's not used to as much writing as CC schedules, but that is OK -- it will be good for him, and is closer to what I expect for high school than not (although there is not WAY we wrote a paper every two weeks). Assuming a decent or better tutor, how did the child fare? I honestly have a decent expectation of CC (see my most recent post), and don't want to debate the quality of the tutors in this thread. :)

 

I went to a 3 day practicum last year and they suggested Chall. B for me if we went with them for 9th. We have never done CC. In the end, I decided not to go the CC route because of the tutors that would be in my area (new, no experience at all with high school --- would be first year). But, I looked at all the Chall. B material and it looked great. Had I been in an area that had it a while and it was established, I probably would have done it. In my area, only really the younger ages have been going on a few years with great success. I imagine when those kids get older and ready for high school it will be awesome here. Otherwise, I'd have to drive 1 1/2 hours to get an experienced tutor for high school.

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I thought I'd let you all know what I decided - hopefully this blesses someone else who is contemplating CC for high school . Thanks to those who responded on this thread and those who sent me private emails. I am so grateful for your willingness to share your decision making process and experiences. I really know that God is directing this path and I feel much peace about it.

 

We've decided to go the Challenge B way. There are many, many cool things that the students at this level will be studying: mock trial, current events, and logic being among the highlights for this mama/teacher. Even my son thinks mock trial sounds cool! The learning skills that my son will acquire through these activities will be huge for him -- and can carryover into academic and life so well.

 

And that, really, is what is making me take the Challenge B way. I sometimes feel like I'm a little hamster on a running wheel, leading my oldest through the motions of what has to get done to get through school, instead of seeking out the learning opportunities that can make a difference in who he is and how he views learning -- how he things and communicates and engages others. We have to take biology, then chemistry, then physics, then this...then that.... If we go out of sequence I'll be lopping off future possibilities for him, etc. One of our goals for homeschooling was to enjoy learning. That is something that we might have lost over the past year or two, because of my tunnel vision focus on doing the "right" classes to advance to more "right" classes.

 

Because the science does not line up as welll as I had planned, DH, son and I came up with a plan to complete Physical Science this year strong and for high school credit. In Challenge B he will learn some great research and writing skills. We might start Biology next year on our own -- or not. Depends on how my son adapts to the workload. If/ when he takes Challenge 1, physical science concepts will be reviewed for him in class, and he'll take Biology or Chemistry next. I still hope to have him complete Biology, Chem, and Physics by the middle of his senior year in high school. Math was another are that isn't quite lining up for us. Ben will start MUS Algebra 1 in the next four weeks. I hope to find a super cheap edition of whatever Saxon level our campus uses, and Ben will follow along to review the concepts, but we'll continue through MUS up through pre-calc. I am sure the review and presentation of information the Saxon way will be beneficial for him.

 

I have no doubt that my son will learn a ton in Challenge B. Will it all fit nicely on a transcript? Probably not-- but that is OK. It will work out somehow, and some college admission officer will hopefully see a young man who took a different path, learned much, gave much, and is worthy of studying at that institution.

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Alane, My son also is in Ch B as a ninth grader (actually - I am undecided when he will graduate - he has a summer bday - and I can see where a 5th year of high school could do him some good!) But he was not new to CC, so I didn't reply to your first post.

 

I wanted to tell you that you probably don't need to worry about the math text or reviewing what is discussed in class. Our experience has been that the kids are all over the place with different texts and levels, yet - they can all participate in the discussion without specifically reviewing the Saxon lessons during the week.

 

It sounds like you have got a great plan and that you have realistic expectations. Good luck!

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  • 1 year later...

I thought I'd let you all know what I decided - hopefully this blesses someone else who is contemplating CC for high school . Thanks to those who responded on this thread and those who sent me private emails. I am so grateful for your willingness to share your decision making process and experiences. I really know that God is directing this path and I feel much peace about it.

 

We've decided to go the Challenge B way. There are many, many cool things that the students at this level will be studying: mock trial, current events, and logic being among the highlights for this mama/teacher. Even my son thinks mock trial sounds cool! The learning skills that my son will acquire through these activities will be huge for him -- and can carryover into academic and life so well.

 

And that, really, is what is making me take the Challenge B way. I sometimes feel like I'm a little hamster on a running wheel, leading my oldest through the motions of what has to get done to get through school, instead of seeking out the learning opportunities that can make a difference in who he is and how he views learning -- how he things and communicates and engages others. We have to take biology, then chemistry, then physics, then this...then that.... If we go out of sequence I'll be lopping off future possibilities for him, etc. One of our goals for homeschooling was to enjoy learning. That is something that we might have lost over the past year or two, because of my tunnel vision focus on doing the "right" classes to advance to more "right" classes.

 

Because the science does not line up as welll as I had planned, DH, son and I came up with a plan to complete Physical Science this year strong and for high school credit. In Challenge B he will learn some great research and writing skills. We might start Biology next year on our own -- or not. Depends on how my son adapts to the workload. If/ when he takes Challenge 1, physical science concepts will be reviewed for him in class, and he'll take Biology or Chemistry next. I still hope to have him complete Biology, Chem, and Physics by the middle of his senior year in high school. Math was another are that isn't quite lining up for us. Ben will start MUS Algebra 1 in the next four weeks. I hope to find a super cheap edition of whatever Saxon level our campus uses, and Ben will follow along to review the concepts, but we'll continue through MUS up through pre-calc. I am sure the review and presentation of information the Saxon way will be beneficial for him.

 

I have no doubt that my son will learn a ton in Challenge B. Will it all fit nicely on a transcript? Probably not-- but that is OK. It will work out somehow, and some college admission officer will hopefully see a young man who took a different path, learned much, gave much, and is worthy of studying at that institution.

 

Thank you for this!  Our local community is growing but probably won't have enough students for Challenge I next year.  We visitied the CC community for the first time this week and all of my children enjoyed it.  I think it could be a great benefit to my oldest but I'm unsure what to do if there is no Challenge I.  They keep telling me we could do B and it could count for high school but I've got to figure that out in my brain, particularly the science credit!  He is currently completing Apologia Physical Science as an 8th grader so he has a science credit for that but I couldn't give him another credit for Physical in Challenge I as a 10th grader. 

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