If you are a conservative Christian, how do you explain (negative) "feminism" to your dc?

[HappyGrace]

(If you're not a Christian, please don't answer this thread to bash. It's not what I am asking for here.)

 

I know in my head what feminism (the negative connotation for Christians) is, but tanked when trying to explain it to dd13. Because I believe the Bible 100%, and believe that men and women are equal in God's eyes as far as spiritual blessings, salvation, etc. I think Jesus himself was/is a feminist but in the sense of him uplifting women at a time in society when they were treated as radically inferior to men. I also believe that God does gift some women to fix cars, and do other stereotypically men's work. I do think it is best for families for the mother to be home, BUT I also think God does not require this of everyone-that some women will remain unmarried and so on and be in a career.

 

So where is the line between what is then unscriptural? I know this is a "conviction" issue and everyone defines it differently. But in a general sense, I tried to explain it that God gives husbands and fathers and other men as protection, and "feminism" (in the negative sense) is women trying to usurp that authority in some way. Like if I wanted to work, but my dh didn't want me to, it would then be my scriptural duty to not work, and I would just trust God that even if I had a spiritual gifting to be an accountant, He would find some other way to use that gifting in the context of the boundaries of scriptural submission.

 

But generally, my question is: what is the definition of the negative connotation of "feminism" that the majority of Christians have? What is it based on? Women (or men who believe it is ok) who usurp God's definition of men's authority, and other scriptural principles (such as having an abortion to keep enabled to work in a career)?

 

I think to try to keep this most civil, please try as much as possible to just try to give the definition for what American Christian society generally calls "feminism" in the negative sense. Thanks!

[Orthodox6]

This won't be what you are expecting for an answer. There will not be a unified definition which "works" for all Christians of a conservative bent. For example, as an Orthodox Christian, I understand the origin of, the authority of, and the meanings of, the Holy Bible markedly differently than do Protestants. Yet the Bible is central in our faith, and would influence any answer. . . . There simply is too much variation across Christian groups regarding God and what He asks of us. This extends even to the theology of marriage and the roles of husband and wife within that relationship.

[Aunty Social]

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[MooCow]

What Auntie Social said. :iagree:

[Susan C.]

I am fairly conservative, but partly because of what you stated, I am moving more to center. Maybe this will help..... I tell my dd that she needs to be able to support herself, to find something she enjoys, to train for it. Then she can have it to fall back on if her husband gets mean, gets too sick to work, dies, etc. Economic times now are different than Bible times. Some women don't marry early (or at all), therefore, need career skills. As far as it being scriptural, I really can't see that this stand is not scriptural, unless some of the Bible isn't meant for women... The woman in Proverbs 31 is definitely a business woman, is skilled, her husband is ok with it, etc. I believe each woman (or man) has to work out what they will do with their lives, and how it fits in with their faith. I don't believe there is one set answer for all. I know women that work, have kids, but have a great family support system where the kids are well cared for. I didn't have that situation, so I stayed home (and homeschooled). So again, no one answer for everybody.

[justasque]

It sounds like, given what you believe, the line between the feminist ideas you agree with

 

 

(women can work, even in traditionally-male fields, men and women are equal in God's eyes as far as spiritual blessings, salvation, etc., God does gift some women to fix cars, and do other stereotypically men's work, it is best for families for the mother to be home,God does not require this of everyone; some women will remain unmarried and so on and be in a career.)

 

and the feminist ideas you do not agree with

 

would be who decides what an individual woman can and cannot, should and should not, do.

[HappyGrace]

See what I mean? Like Aunty Social says, it is hard to put it into words! I think she did a good job, but can we flesh it out a bit more?

[Ottakee]

This website/blog has some great information on the roles of men and women http://tolovehonorandvacuum.com/ Not all of her posts are on that and some are more explicit (tastefully done though) on intimacy issues so you should look it over and glean some ideas and then present them to your daughter--not send her to the website.

[Orthodox6]

I'll bumble this out again, then. . . I would say that the "negative side" is when a woman tries to be, or insists upon being, what she was not created by God to be. The definition of that will vary, according to what faith group one belongs to.

 

This is an interesting question for discussion right now, given that the U.S. government has just opened the door to make military conscription of women possibly legal in the future. (Since we may not rant about politics on this website, I may not express how I feel about that.)

[PachiSusan]

For me, the negative side of feminism is too tied to politics for me, so I can't really discuss it here. TIp toeing....

 

When my DD and I talk about things such as this, there is a certain "core" of feminism that has co-opted the movement and in my opinion, has driven other women away from having a voice in the movement.

 

I have always told my daughter that feminism at it's core is all about not preventing women from achieving their potential and supporting each other to achieve that potential. We have the God given gift of being women and we have the right to equal pay, equal treatment. However, when it's turned around to where women feel they deserve MORE worth than men, that's when things go wrong. Men and women are created equal in dignity. However, our society gives us different roles to play.

[HappyGrace]

Yes, we just were reading about military conscription today AFTER the other discussion, so it would appear that in various ways the Lord is bringing this to the forefront for our family's discussion today!

[Orthodox6]

(I'm worried that I'll be swatted by an administrator if I answer you, Wendy! :001_smile: ) You correctly noted the backdrop to this recent announcement. I'm not knee-jerk over-reacting; just observing the "slippery slope" possibility which journalists already have voiced.

[LarlaB]

I approach it as two different, but related issues. First, value. We are all equally valued in Gods sight as His creation. Secondly, roles. We were not all created to have the same role/function in life- I don't believe that it is as simple as universally male & female qualities though... :)

[Mrs Mungo]

The main reasoning for that was not that the military expects a large number of women to line up to be in combat positions, but that some women are already in these positions and cannot earn awards, promotions, etc. because of the fact it's in the wording of the military's rules. So the fact of the matter is that women are already sometimes in these positions and just aren't being properly recognized.

 

Not saying this should change your mind, but the truth is, it probably is not because suddenly a lot of people think women are equal to men when it comes to military service.

 

Right, women who are making a career out of the military are stunted by their exclusion from combat arms branches of the military. There are only *eleven* four star generals in the military. I'm pretty sure that only one of those is a support position (maybe two), the rest are combat arms. Other positions of authority have similar proportions. Women are already serving in combat, just not in "combat arms" positions. I know this probably makes zero sense to anyone without military knowledge. But, there you have it. Even if it *does* (in theory) lead to women registering for the draft, does that mean that they will automatically be available for conscription? No, because it doesn't work that way for young men (not that many people understand how it works).

 

I am a Christian, but I don't find the idea of feminism to be unBiblical. Do some self-proclaimed feminists hold ideas I find unBiblical? Sure. Do some self-proclaimed Christians? Yes. Labels do not tell us everything we need to know about a topic.

[hsbeth]

As a mother of 4 girls this is an issue that I've wrestled with. Although I am a conservative Chrisitan (and have actually continued to become even more so over the years) I try to be carefully about the ideas that I voice with my daughters. I want to be sure to differentiate between what is actually Biblical, what is extra-Biblical (a product of both my personal life experiences and personal convictions). Most of the views and opinions that I've been exposed to are a muddy combination of all of the above. There is also a lot of legalism around this issue as well.

 

My girls are all Christ followers but have markedly different hopes and dreams. I believe that God created them uniquely and has a unique plan for their lives. Some are more career focused while others are already expressing interest in having a family. The basic ideas we've discussed in our home are the ideas of husband/wife relationships and the duties of both parties (husband as leader who is bound to care for and protect), the duties of wife (respect, support, etc.), and the duties of mothers/parents. We've made it clear to our girls why we have chosen for me to be available at home for them.

 

As far as the negative aspects of feminism, I agree that many may be too politcal to discuss here. Feminists spawned the pro-choice movement and frankly, I see that as a huge negative. I also think feminism places pressure on women to "have it all". I think the difficulty of balancing motherhood with a demanding career is largely underestimated. Usually the balance becomes skewed and one or the other suffers. Chasing a pipe dream has caused lots of heart ache on the part of a generation of women and their children. It has also led to increased tension in marriage in my opinion.

 

We will be very supportive of our girls if they choose to have a career and encourage them to further their education. Before marriage we will urge them to prayerfully consider and discuss with their future spouse many of these issues. If they choose to have a family, we would hope that they would prioritize the needs of their husband and children.

[PachiSusan]

As a mother of 4 girls this is an issue that I've wrestled with. Although I am a conservative Chrisitan (and have actually continued to become even more so over the years) I try to be carefully about the ideas that I voice with my daughters. I want to be sure to differentiate between what is actually Biblical, what is extra-Biblical (a product of both my personal life experiences and personal convictions). Most of the views and opinions that I've been exposed to are a muddy combination of all of the above. There is also a lot of legalism around this issue as well.

 

My girls are all Christ followers but have markedly different hopes and dreams. I believe that God created them uniquely and has a unique plan for their lives. Some are more career focused while others are already expressing interest in having a family. The basic ideas we've discussed in our home are the ideas of husband/wife relationships and the duties of both parties (husband as leader who is bound to care for and protect), the duties of wife (respect, support, etc.), and the duties of mothers/parents. We've made it clear to our girls why we have chosen for me to be available at home for them.

 

As far as the negative aspects of feminism, I agree that many may be too politcal to discuss here. Feminists spawned the pro-choice movement and frankly, I see that as a huge negative. I also think feminism places pressure on women to "have it all". I think the difficulty of balancing motherhood with a demanding career is largely underestimated. Usually the balance becomes skewed and one or the other suffers. Chasing a pipe dream has caused lots of heart ache on the part of a generation of women and their children. It has also led to increased tension in marriage in my opinion.

 

We will be very supportive of our girls if they choose to have a career and encourage them to further their education. Before marriage we will urge them to prayerfully consider and discuss with their future spouse many of these issues. If they choose to have a family, we would hope that they would prioritize the needs of their husband and children.

 

You just spoke what was in my heart and brain. Thank you!!!!

[cathmom]

I think that perhaps you should consider the idea that it may be best for other Christian families if Mom has paid employment.

[butterflymommy]

As far as the negative aspects of feminism, I agree that many may be too politcal to discuss here. Feminists spawned the pro-choice movement and frankly, I see that as a huge negative. I also think feminism places pressure on women to "have it all". I think the difficulty of balancing motherhood with a demanding career is largely underestimated. Usually the balance becomes skewed and one or the other suffers. Chasing a pipe dream has caused lots of heart ache on the part of a generation of women and their children. It has also led to increased tension in marriage in my opinion.

 

I was raised by a mother who was the "bad kind" feminist, which I would define as, putting career before children at almost any cost (including abortion if "necessary"), seeing men as oppressors (no matter who the man) and the enemy who need to be controlled and put in their place, seeing motherhood, pregnancy, staying at home with children as "pathetic" work with no real value (i.e. the hillary clinton comment about staying home and baking cookies), etc.

 

So while I would not consider myself a feminist in that bad sense, I am a feminist in the polite sense people like to use in defense of feminism (i.e. all human beings deserve equal consideration, all souls are infinitely precious and none more deserving over the other), I would argue that the "good kind" of feminism quickly bleeds into the "bad kind" more often than society would like to admit. For example, we are politely laudatory toward middle class SAHMs, but a single SAHM who stays home to care for her children is viewed as a leech upon society. If we truly, as a society, valued the role of women as nurturers to children, we would have equal respect for both the middle class and poor women.

 

As far as where to draw the line, there have always been exceptions in societies-- women who might want to pursue a more masculine path, and the opposite (say, a male fashion designer or ballet dancer). It's both a blessing and a curse that our society accepts these exceptions these days-- a blessing because a person can follow a nonconformist role-- a curse in that we like to pretend the exception is the norm.

 

With my girls my goal is to have them as educated as humanly possible so that they will at least have some choices. I sometimes get the sinking feeling that there will soon be no men left willing to be providers and protectors to a SAHM.

 

One of the desert mothers said she had a male soul (she was a hermit and even the male hermits would come to her for advice) so there has always been room in christianity for nonconformist women (this was nearly 2,000 years ago). But the danger is when we expect everyone to be the exception and/ or reject femininity and motherhood as a norm for many women, which I would argue it is. This is where the unreasonable expectations come into play which, as you say, can be damaging and harmful to women because it can put crushing pressure on them.

[Mrs Mungo]

So while I would not consider myself a feminist in that bad sense, I am a feminist in the polite sense people like to use in defense of feminism (i.e. all human beings deserve equal consideration, all souls are infinitely precious and none more deserving over the other), I would argue that the "good kind" of feminism quickly bleeds into the "bad kind" more often than society would like to admit. For example, we are politely laudatory toward middle class SAHMs, but a single SAHM who stays home to care for her children is viewed as a leech upon society. If we truly, as a society, valued the role of women as nurturers to children, we would have equal respect for both the middle class and poor women.

 

Do you see the bolded as having anything to do with feminism? I see this POV much more in anti-feminist camps, which leads me to a different conclusion about who really values women.

[hsbeth]

I think that perhaps you should consider the idea that it may be best for other Christian families if Mom has paid employment.

 

I agree with this statement and I have worked at different points during my marriage with the blessing/support of my husband. I actually work part-time now. However, I certainly feel the need to have the aforementioned blessing of my husband and we continue to make financial sacrifices so that I am fully available to my family . Certainly, my work these days is of lower priority than my family responsibilities.

 

I did not mean to imply that mothers should never work outside of the home at all.

[Parrothead]

Well, I'm pretty conservative and Christian, but I can't get behind most of what was posted in the OP. so I can't help except to show that there are deeply Christian women who believe women and men are equal in the eyes of God and politics. They believe God gave them a brain as capable as a man's and they are perfectly capable to made decisions for themselves and their families. One would hope that if said woman was married she would take her husbands thoughts into consideration.

 

I don't back the women are superior to men ideal that. The ultra-feminists subscribe to. I believe in equality for all regardless of race, religion, sex, gender, color, nationality or tribe. I can't believe Jesus would have it any other way.

[Celia]

I tell my kids the the Bible presents men and women as having different roles. Not that one sex is inferior/superior to the other.

 

As far as what feminism is, I think everyone has a different definition on that one. Some will say a woman working wearing pants is a feminist. Other's see it as someone who is a political activist for women's rights.

[lea_lpz]

A feminist simply means that you believe men and women are equals. Period. That's it! The variations of others beliefs associated with feminism give you a multitude of different feminist theory but ultimately it boils down to the belief men and women are equals.

 

I don't feel this is in conflict with the Bible or the teachings of Jesus Christ. The work and role of women are equally pleasing and valuable to The Lord. I would also advice my daughter to be prepared to support herself and children should she need to and additionally prepare for a career she could possibly do from home to supplement her income as a mother, but ultimately it would be her choice to marry, be a SAHM or a working mom. I wouldn't think less of a women for choosing to work outside if she has children. It's not for everyone.

[kalanamak]

 

The main reasoning for that was not that the military expects a large number of women to line up to be in combat positions, but that some women are already in these positions and cannot earn awards, promotions, etc. because of the fact it's in the wording of the military's rules. So the fact of the matter is that women are already sometimes in these positions and just aren't being properly recognized.

 

 

I haven't followed the current story, but I'm reading Churchill's The Grand Alliance. In the appendix are some of his letters to various officials, and I was pleased to see he devoted more than one to having female battery gunners, taking the same risk as the men, get the awards and bars, etc the men get, instead of just the Women's Aux corp stuff. He thought it right, as well as morale-building.

[Susan in TN]

Here's something to consider, not just with feminism, but other aspects of life. I'll go out on a limb and assume you are trinitarian (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). Equal in power, substance, holiness, and all respects, but different in their roles. The Son submits himself to the Father. The Spirit is sent by the Son and Father, etc.

 

I believe that God created the world to reflect his character and nature, one of the foremost being the relationship within the trinity. This means different roles, different ways of submitting and exercising authority.

 

So how does this relate to the creation of men and women? I think in some ways it implies that simply because a person has the "ability" to fulfill a role, it doesn't necessarily mean they were created to fulfill that role. I also think that because of the Fall, people will have to step into roles that are not ideal simply because someone has to do it.

 

I'm not going into specifics here because in many cases it's a matter of Biblical interpretation and personal conviction as to what those roles are.

[HappyGrace]

Here's something to consider, not just with feminism, but other aspects of life. I'll go out on a limb and assume you are trinitarian (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). Equal in power, substance, holiness, and all respects, but different in their roles. The Son submits himself to the Father. The Spirit is sent by the Son and Father, etc.

 

I believe that God created the world to reflect his character and nature, one of the foremost being the relationship within the trinity. This means different roles, different ways of submitting and exercising authority.

 

So how does this relate to the creation of men and women? I think in some ways it implies that simply because a person has the "ability" to fulfill a role, it doesn't necessarily mean they were created to fulfill that role. I also think that because of the Fall, people will have to step into roles that are not ideal simply because someone has to do it.

 

I'm not going into specifics here because in many cases it's a matter of Biblical interpretation and personal conviction as to what those roles are.

 

 

 

Love this! Excellent explanation, thanks.

[bolt.]

(If you're not a Christian, please don't answer this thread to bash. It's not what I am asking for here.)

 

I know in my head what feminism (the negative connotation for Christians) is, but tanked when trying to explain it to dd13. Because I believe the Bible 100%, and believe that men and women are equal in God's eyes as far as spiritual blessings, salvation, etc. I think Jesus himself was/is a feminist but in the sense of him uplifting women at a time in society when they were treated as radically inferior to men. I also believe that God does gift some women to fix cars, and do other stereotypically men's work. I do think it is best for families for the mother to be home, BUT I also think God does not require this of everyone-that some women will remain unmarried and so on and be in a career.

 

So where is the line between what is then unscriptural? I know this is a "conviction" issue and everyone defines it differently. But in a general sense, I tried to explain it that God gives husbands and fathers and other men as protection, and "feminism" (in the negative sense) is women trying to usurp that authority in some way. Like if I wanted to work, but my dh didn't want me to, it would then be my scriptural duty to not work, and I would just trust God that even if I had a spiritual gifting to be an accountant, He would find some other way to use that gifting in the context of the boundaries of scriptural submission.

 

But generally, my question is: what is the definition of the negative connotation of "feminism" that the majority of Christians have? What is it based on? Women (or men who believe it is ok) who usurp God's definition of men's authority, and other scriptural principles (such as having an abortion to keep enabled to work in a career)?

 

I think to try to keep this most civil, please try as much as possible to just try to give the definition for what American Christian society generally calls "feminism" in the negative sense. Thanks!

 

Based on that discription alone, I think what you are trying to say is that you believe, under your worldview (that is a Christian worldview) that married women have chosen a situation where they have only as much personal freedom as their husband consents to. You feel that feminism becomes a negative thing when women begin to behave as if their personal freedom is not limited by their husband's (presumed) authority to emplace such limits as he chooses.

 

I, however, also hold a Christan worldview, and study the Bible with great conservative care and reverence... Yet I do not share your conclusions about authority and subordination.

 

I would define "negative" feminism as opinion like (a) men are evil and women must be protected from them, (b ) men are useless and women should either ignore them or tolerate them according to their pleasure, or © men are inferior to women and women can freely behave in superior ways including pride, bullying or systematic disempowerment and oppression.

 

To me it comes down to the distinction between achieving freedom (good) and using freedom to cover sin against others (bad).

 

A good feminist does not tolerate dishonor based on gender, neither towards women NOR towards men. A bad feminist is out for women to get beyond what is fair and into a position of gender superiority.

[EthiopianFood]

Feminism is an ideology. What you have a problem with is branches of the feminist MOVEMENT. The same thing can be said about Christianity. I'm assuming you don't say that Christianity is bad because their are people with more extreme viewpoints that you disagree with.

[Sahamamama]

We're working our way through this, also, with three daughters. Mine are still young. When they're 13, like your daughter is now, I'm sure this will come up more often. If anyone here figures out how to raise girls, let me know your strategy. :)

[Sahamamama]

A good feminist does not tolerate dishonor based on gender, neither towards women NOR towards men. A bad feminist is out for women to get beyond what is fair and into a position of gender superiority.

 

I agree with this entire post, but especially the above. It comes down to dignity, respecting another person's God-given value, and honoring the person without bias based on gender. Dignity.

[regentrude]

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[MommaOfalotta]

I agree that men and women are considered equal to God and we are loved equally by Him. I also agree that there are different degrees of feminism. Believing we are equal is just fine. The type of feminism that puts out there we need to hold the same jobs as men to be seen as equal, etc are what I have a problem with. Making SAHMs and homemakers look inferior is a hot button issue with me. What bothers me the most is when people say women can be MORE than mothers, or MORE than a wife. I find that insulting. If women wish to work outside the home or follow an ambitious career thats all well and good, but its something other (not MORE) than being a mother. KWIM?

 

All in all I plan to teach my daughter to seek her own interpretation of feminism (as everyone here has theirs) and to follow what she believes Gods plan is for her life. I do believe that we are created to be nurturers and while we are seen as equals to men in Gods eyes, we were created for different roles. (Ex. Man is spiritual head of family, head of household. Mom supports him.) BUT the respect goes both ways. Thats something that I believe the extreme feminism idea misunderstands.. that as "just SAHMs" we aren't respected by our husbands since they hold this position of "power" in the family.

 

To sum it up, I have no issue with feminists that are just stating we are equal creatures. It just really irks me when it seems to be a fight for power over men. I believe a SAHM deserves as much respect as any female attorney, doctor, etc. But one should choose these occupations out of their desire and the plan God has for them, not because they believe it will show them as equal or superior to men.

 

Sorry to ramble... and again Im not saying this negative portrayal is accurate of all feminists, Im strictly speaking of the extreme feminists/women I know who call themselves feminists.

 

:)

 

ETA: Just re-read this and realized I was ranting a little ;) Its something Ive been thinking a lot about lately due to a woman on my husbands facebook that has been posting extremeee feminist pics/quotes etc.. with some remarks about SAHMs in particular. Sorry that I let that take over my post!

[goldberry]

I have taught my daughter that women are very different from men but not inferior. That we do best when we embrace and honor our differences rather than trying to pretend we are all the same. Biblically, I believe a woman can have whatever destiny she chooses, single, married, SAHM, working, children, no children.

 

IF she chooses to be married, then she chooses to submit on certain levels to her husband's authority. Not because she is inferior, but because that is the authority structure set out by the Bible. That's why I focus strongly with her that when/if she gets ready to marry, she needs to consider the possible mate with a view that she will be placing herself under his authority in certain issues. If he follows the Biblical guidelines of loving and cherishing her as his own body, there won't be any problems. If he likes to pick and choose which Biblical guidelines to follow, then yep, there will be a LOAD of problems.

 

IF she chooses to have children, then Biblically she has a responsiblity to care for them and to put their interests ahead of her own. This can mean a variety of different things, as a child's "interests" vary wildly from child to child. Some children may be fine with a mom working outside the home, going to public school, etc. Some may not.

 

The only manner in which I see feminism conflicting with Biblical beliefs is when it elevates one gender above another, shows contempt for either gender, shows contempt for any of a woman's choices, including more traditional ones. Also, I do believe in a Biblical headship arrangement carried out with Christlike love on the part of the husband. A woman is under no obligation to enter that arrangement if she doesn't want to be involved with that. Feminism that considers that a bad thing is not Biblical, and I believe often misinterprets the intention of the Biblical dynamic.

[caroljenn]

I think the negative side of feminism is when the woman puts her own needs above everyone else's. The husband better behave himself and let her do A,B and C, because he doesn't know who he's messing with! Kind of a type of bullying, where you are so worried about lifting yourself up, you tear others down. A selfishness, where she wants what she wants, at any cost.

 

This does not in any way apply to a decent type of feminism, where a woman who does the same job as a man gets equal pay, or the woman is not subjugated and abused and forced to do things out of her will. A strong, God-fearing woman will take care of her family and stand up for herself and them, but not be bullied or be a bully herself.