Why are textbooks considered bad?

[regentrude]

Does (or has) a video/screen based culture contribute (or contributed) to the change in the way texts are being written?

 

 

It definitely has an effect on the average attention span. Older colleagues have been able to observe the decline of the attention span in the students.

When I went to college, all classes were 85 minutes long. You took notes from the board.

Here, classes are 50 minutes long, the students print off predigested lecture notes from the course website (and in most cases do not bother taking additional notes), and some instructors pause after 20 minutes so they can get get up and wiggle around because they can't be expected to sit and concentrate for the duration of a lecture. Btw, I am talking about college, not kindergarten. And no, I am not kidding.

 

I believe that students are no longer trained to sustain attention. They are not required to listen or read at length, because instead of counteracting, schools cater to the sound bite culture of popular media with which those kids grew up. Textbooks just follow suit.

 

If I sound like an old disgruntled fogey, so be it. I am saddened by how little we expect of young people and how much the bar is lowered to ensure that everybody can hop across it with minimum effort.

[swimmermom3]

It definitely has an effect on the average attention span. Older colleagues have been able to observe the decline of the attention span in the students.

When I went to college, all classes were 85 minutes long. You took notes from the board.

Here, classes are 50 minutes long, the students print off predigested lecture notes from the course website (and in most cases do not bother taking additional notes), and some instructors pause after 20 minutes so they can get get up and wiggle around because they can't be expected to sit and concentrate for the duration of a lecture. Btw, I am talking about college, not kindergarten. And no, I am not kidding.

 

I believe that students are no longer trained to sustain attention. They are not required to listen or read at length, because instead of counteracting, schools cater to the sound bite culture of popular media with which those kids grew up. Textbooks just follow suit.

 

If I sound like an old disgruntled fogey, so be it. I am saddened by how little we expect of young people and how much the bar is lowered to ensure that everybody can hop across it with minimum effort.

 

 

I am right there with you. I was a full-time graduate student who attended night classes. You know what that looks like at nearly three hours a stretch in one sitting. How do you get anything done in a 50 minute class? By the time they settle in, it's time to pack up and go.

 

In pulling together a semester history course that was challenging, I looked through dozens of AP World History sites. I am amazed at how much information is given out to students, just handed to them, to be sure they pass the tests. I was pleased to see that my son's AP European History teacher was far less generous.

[shanvan]

It definitely has an effect on the average attention span. Older colleagues have been able to observe the decline of the attention span in the students.

When I went to college, all classes were 85 minutes long. You took notes from the board.

Here, classes are 50 minutes long, the students print off predigested lecture notes from the course website (and in most cases do not bother taking additional notes), and some instructors pause after 20 minutes so they can get get up and wiggle around because they can't be expected to sit and concentrate for the duration of a lecture. Btw, I am talking about college, not kindergarten. And no, I am not kidding.

 

 

Where is 'here'? Now I'm wondering if most schools have shortened their classes. My college classes were 90 minutes. I'm not that old and it wasn't that long ago. Hmmm...okay maybe I am old, it was close to 20 years ago.

 

I am right there with you. I was a full-time graduate student who attended night classes. You know what that looks like at nearly three hours a stretch in one sitting.

 

 

I had some night classes too. I have to admit, 3 hrs was a long time. I remember drifting off during one discussion of Bleak House....

[PeterPan]

We pulled out his sister's AP European History and an AP World History text and of course, he couldn't use the same process.

 

That's an interesting question! Now I'm going to have to dig out some texts and see! :)

 

PS. For the record, my study guides are mine. There are no highlighted sections or other clues that could help her fill them out. But I'm with you that there's doubtless a step up from the writing in the text we're using to where she'd like to end up, and that we need to recognize that to get there. Excellent point.

[Faithr]

When I went to college way back in the 1980's we all had different times for classes. It depended on the professor and the subject (and maybe classroom space?) You could go to 3 55 minute classes on M, W, F or 2 90 minutes classes (T, TH) or one 3 hour class in the evening of any night except Fridays. I know at my dd's University, things are run the same way as I experienced. She may have one long class a week or whatever, depending on the professor and subject matter. This seems to be the same way Berklee College of Music is run. Also, depending on the professor we got detailed syllabi and often study guides before an exam. So from my limited exposure to colleges these days things aren't much different, except that some professors let you bring your laptop and others don't.

[Nscribe]

Just think about that for a moment. Do you really want your student unable to learn unless a program is perfectly tailored to their learning style? Do you think that they will only ever take classes that will be tailored to their specific style?

 

Ruth in NZ

 

 

Thank you! I have been searching for a way to articulate that general idea.

[swimmermom3]

Cynthia, thank you for starting this thread. While I enjoy comparing curriculum or crock pot recipes, threads that explore the nitty gritty of teaching are the ones that keep me coming back.

 

I am glad I Nscribe's post above, because somehow I missed Ruth's amazing post and the corresponding replies.

 

Not only is it important to be able to READ a text, but it is important to know how to SEARCH for information.

 

I can guarantee you that many students, possibly yours included think that all there is to searching for information is plugging a few words into one's browser.

 

This was dramatically brought home to me last night as my oldest son (17) and his darling, and very bright honor student girlfriend were studying for finals at our kitchen table. She is taking an AP Statistics course and had a question about the fourth quartile in a particular problem. "What does your book say?" Well, there was nothing in the glossary! :svengo:

 

We actually took about 20 minutes to talk about how to look for information in a text. They are seniors in high school and I had seen the issue come up with my son before as well. It is little things, like not knowing that the index is often your best bet if you need more than a definition. It is knowing to look for the noun (quartile) before looking for the adjective (fourth).

 

I know this is a small thing, but it can be a big time-waster if your student does not know how to slice, dice, and rearrange search information in order to get an answer. Searching in an effective manner requires thought.

 

Sorry to go off topic, but the shock of it is very fresh in my mind.

[Miss Marple]

LOL, Lisa, I had that same conversation about the index with my sons last semester. I just assumed they knew what an index was and where to find it. Another issue was how to actually use the index! I related it to Google search terms. Honestly they had trouble knowing what words to look up.

 

This thread has opened up so much for me - things I never even considered.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Oh, I've run into the very same issue with not knowing to look at the glossary and index. Actually, this morning I pointed out to ds that his Latin book had an appendix with most of the grammar charts he was trying to learn, as well as verb principle parts lists. He was agog.

[swimmermom3]

LOL, Lisa, I had that same conversation about the index with my sons last semester. I just assumed they knew what an index was and where to find it. Another issue was how to actually use the index! I related it to Google search terms. Honestly they had trouble knowing what words to look up.

 

This thread has opened up so much for me - things I never even considered.

 

 

So why do you think they had trouble knowing what words to look up? It's not just your boys. It's my older kids and their friends too. Does this come back to the dumbing down of some of the materials they study from? A lack of engagement because our culture spoon feeds them everything?

 

I have assumed myself into a hole too many times to count. :tongue_smilie:

 

We brought our middle child home last year for eleventh grade in hopes that if I worked side-by-side with him, we would have a better idea of why certain things were happening with his academics. He is bright, curious, and side-tracked. He's the guy that always comes to class, participates in discussions and leaves without turning in the completed homework that is at the bottom of his backpack. What I discovered was that he was missing many of the study skills I assumed he had - ones that in my mind, were appropriate for his age. And for all of the work we did last year, he still failed to check the AP Euro teacher's website this year. Though sometimes, it is difficult to pick out what is honest ignorance and what is convenient ignorance.

 

The boy asked me yesterday for the traits of three specific types of literary critiques. I asked him where his handouts from class where. He sheepishly admitted to throwing away a bunch of school papers when he cleaned his room last week. There is a file cabinet by the computer with folders for each class. The folders are empty. Head-thunk.

[swimmermom3]

Oh, I've run into the very same issue with not knowing to look at the glossary and index. Actually, this morning I pointed out to ds that his Latin book had an appendix with most of the grammar charts he was trying to learn, as well as verb principle parts lists. He was agog.

 

 

Yes. :D

 

It's amazing that a chemistry text might have a periodic table in it. Imagine that.

[PachiSusan]

Do you really want your student unable to learn unless a program is perfectly tailored to their learning style? Do you think that they will only ever take classes that will be tailored to their specific style? Will the fail if a class is not taught in their style? And more generally, if they need to learn something for a job, will they be able to do it? Are they completely reliant a tutor or a friend to verbally explain the material? In the end as you advance in your own personal learning, you typically do it independently, and if you don't you are limited.

 

 

 

If my reason for coming to this forum was to be present when your post was written and posted, Ruth, then my work here is done. You have officially blown my mind with the most concise and helpful post I have ever seen bar none in home education circles. I have copied it and will be printing it up after school and laminating it.

 

Seriously. I can't thank you enough.

[regentrude]

And for all of the work we did last year, he still failed to check the AP Euro teacher's website this year. Though sometimes, it is difficult to pick out what is honest ignorance and what is convenient ignorance.

 

The boy asked me yesterday for the traits of three specific types of literary critiques. I asked him where his handouts from class where. He sheepishly admitted to throwing away a bunch of school papers when he cleaned his room last week. There is a file cabinet by the computer with folders for each class. The folders are empty. Head-thunk.

 

 

Why am I not surprised?

I have all my course materials for my college classes on a website: schedule, handout, rules, grades, old exams, solutions. Students get a syllabus on the first day of class with the website information. The physics department of the university has a website with links to the pages of every.single.course. The university directory has my name and a link to my website, which has links to all my classes. You'd think that should suffice, right? No. Two months into the semester I still have people asking where to find course information, exam dates, etc.

 

DD informed me that a classmate in her college course asked her incredulously halfway through the semester :"you mean we have QUIZZES?" They were in the schedule, the professor had info for logging on to the online quiz system in the lecture notes.

Or another student finally asked in the third ab "Where do we find the lab report template?"

 

Oh, and of course some are unable to discover that the table with important astronomical and physics constants can be found in the inside cover of the textbook.

 

:banghead:

 

And none of this is actually thinking - just looking up information that is stored in logical, convenient places.

[PeterPan]

The boy asked me yesterday for the traits of three specific types of literary critiques. I asked him where his handouts from class where. He sheepishly admitted to throwing away a bunch of school papers when he cleaned his room last week. There is a file cabinet by the computer with folders for each class. The folders are empty. Head-thunk.

 

 

Nan in Mass has books she has recommended in the past for that. That Crumpled Paper was Due Last Week has good suggestions.

[Miss Marple]

 

 

So why do you think they had trouble knowing what words to look up? It's not just your boys. It's my older kids and their friends too. Does this come back to the dumbing down of some of the materials they study from? A lack of engagement because our culture spoon

 

 

I think they are just a bit intimidated by a text compared to computers. Once I told them to look up the same terms they would normally Google they seemed to have less trouble. The courses they take at the local university have online components so often times they do just Google and they find the answers. It's a different world than I grew up in. We learned the card catalog at the library. Today that is almost irrelevant. I wonder how long it will be before textbooks are irrelevant. Even now many of their professors require a textbook but never use it. They send the students to websites and online articles.

 

My second son came home with a story of a fellow student who had taken an AP course in the subject area and felt he didn't need to attend class. He showed up on test days and scored well on all exams. He thought he had an A in the course. He ended up with a C because he neglected to read the syllabus to know that there were online quizzes and attendance was part of the grade.

 

Sometimes I think I'm doing too much handholding when I require the boys to print off the syllabus and read through it and highlight pertinent information, but when I hear stories like that I guess it's OK. I think this is one of the skills I'm glad they learn through dual enrollment and hopefully have a grasp of before they head out after graduation.

[swimmermom3]

I think they are just a bit intimidated by a text compared to computers. Once I told them to look up the same terms they would normally Google they seemed to have less trouble. The courses they take at the local university have online components so often times they do just Google and they find the answers. It's a different world than I grew up in. We learned the card catalog at the library. Today that is almost irrelevant. I wonder how long it will be before textbooks are irrelevant. Even now many of their professors require a textbook but never use it. They send the students to websites and online articles.

 

My second son came home with a story of a fellow student who had taken an AP course in the subject area and felt he didn't need to attend class. He showed up on test days and scored well on all exams. He thought he had an A in the course. He ended up with a C because he neglected to read the syllabus to know that there were online quizzes and attendance was part of the grade.

 

Sometimes I think I'm doing too much handholding when I require the boys to print off the syllabus and read through it and highlight pertinent information, but when I hear stories like that I guess it's OK. I think this is one of the skills I'm glad they learn through dual enrollment and hopefully have a grasp of before they head out after graduation.

 

 

I think you are probably right about texts vs. computers. However, it worries me that it seems easier for me to adapt my old card catalog/text skills to modern searches than it is for my kids to adapt their computer search skills to texts. I really hope it is a lack of maturity/practice issue.

 

It would never have occurred to me to read off syllabi with Son #1 and obviously it should have. I am glad you brought this up and we will go through all of the ones he already has over the weekend.

 

 

Would anyone be game for a "How to learn from a text " thread? I am not thinking of those 4-page detailed sets of notes that begin with instructing your student to open the book. I am thinking more along the lines of how older students/ more advanced students tackle texts when they have heavy class loads. A lot of those sets of instructions for reading texts are idealized as in "if you had all the time in the world, this would be the ideal way to learn the information."

 

How do the professors and teachers on this board instruct/ or expect their students to approach their texts or other source material? If you look at this Exercise 1.2 Reading Strategies on this link, this is what I taught my son in 7th grade, when he asked if it could be applied to all texts. Is this how you all approach a text? Do you teach your kids the ideal and then the real?

 

One of the good ideas we did take away from that link and I think Ruth ,mentions it in her post, is that Son #2 decided that he liked the idea of turning subheadings and headings into questions. This wasn't something I had ever done before, but I find it very handy in preparing material to discuss in lessons or for creating quizzes.

[regentrude]

How do the professors and teachers on this board instruct/ or expect their students to approach their texts or other source material? If you look at this Exercise 1.2 Reading Strategies on this link, this is what I taught my son in 7th grade, when he asked if it could be applied to all texts. Is this how you all approach a text? Do you teach your kids the ideal and then the real?

 

 

No, this is not how I approach a text, nor how I have been taught, nor how I will teach my kids - these instructions drive me crazy.

"Turn headings into questions"? "Recite concepts out loud"? Are they serious???

 

When DH or I work with a physics text, there are two modes: to get an overview, we skim briefly. To really understand and master the content, we have the book next to us, a piece of paper in front, and take notes from the beginning of the chapter, performing on our own every example calculation and every derivation that is given in the text. (I can not recall ever having used those strategies described in the link). It is the only way to learn physics from a book; this is how we studied introductory material in college, and this is how we approach advanced material for our research.

When I taught DD how to work with a science text, I asked her to read and take notes on the main issues in whatever manner she found suitable so that she could study for an exam solely with her notes, without the book. Initially, she would write down too much, and through practice she would gradually reduce her note taking to focus on the main issues. Definitions and reproductions of important schematic sketches for bio, working through examples for physics and chemistry.

 

I expect of my students to read a section, take notes on the key points, work through any worked example that is given in the text with pencil in hand, questioning, examining and understanding each step. I do not focus on "vocabulary words" - any important term will be used in context enough so that its meaning will be understood much better than it can be by memorizing a definition. In fact, I find the bolded terms in the text detrimental to actual learning, because they draw the student's attention and lead to skimming (as in, if I can just regurgitate the bolded words I will be fine). I dislike chapter review sections for the same reason, because all too often students JUST read and try to memorize the chapter summary without understanding the details. The textbooks we had in college did NOT have chapter summaries or colored boxes with problem solving strategies, just black and white text which forces the student to read the entire text and not just cherry pick the bolded or highlighted portions.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

How do the professors and teachers on this board instruct/ or expect their students to approach their texts or other source material? If you look at this Exercise 1.2 Reading Strategies on this link, this is what I taught my son in 7th grade, when he asked if it could be applied to all texts. Is this how you all approach a text? Do you teach your kids the ideal and then the real?

 

 

 

FWIW, we tossed those pages.

[elegantlion]

This thread is wonderful. The information here is worth the price of a convention ticket.

[Miss Marple]

On a practical note: when my ds2 and I were going through his old college texts deciding which to keep and which to resell I discovered that he labeled his thermodynamics text with sticky note labels. He had markers on the different tables and indexes so he was able to flip quickly to a section. I was happy to see he had done that on his own. So there is hope :D

[PachiSusan]

This thread is wonderful. The information here is worth the price of a convention ticket.

 

Absolutely!!!!!!

[JumpyTheFrog]

Ruth,

 

I don't think I've ever saved a post from the forum before (well, maybe one of Tibbie Dunbar's), but even though my oldest is only in 1st grade, I saved your post about the steps to learning from textbooks.

[Dicentra]

I thought this was an interesting blog post:

http://open.salon.com/blog/annie_keeghan/2012/02/17/afraid_of_your_childs_math_textbook_you_should_be

The author is an editor and educational consultant writing about why many newer textbooks in the public school system are so awful.

[swimmermom3]

I thought this was an interesting blog post:

http://open.salon.co...k_you_should_be

The author is an editor and educational consultant writing about why many newer textbooks in the public school system are so awful.

 

 

I really don't even know how to respond to that information. Part of me feels like I will be okay because I have older classic math books on my shelves, but science? That is a whole different ball game.

 

If I take that information and I think about who some of the owners are behind some of the big chain online schools, none of it bodes well for this country educationally.

[Arcadia]

Does this come back to the dumbing down of some of the materials they study from? A lack of engagement because our culture spoon feeds them everything?

 

 

What I have noticed from my kids virtual academy schoolmates is that most do not own a paper dictionary or thesaurus anymore. Some use a dictionary app some just never use google. Another thing is children are so used to the calculator that they no longer check if the answer makes sense.

 

For example if you divide an odd number by an odd number, you would expect an odd number. Some of his classmates would give an even number answer and not realized they have either press the wrong buttons on their calculator or type the wrong answer into the online class chat.

 

 

I thought this was an interesting blog post:

http://open.salon.com/blog/annie_keeghan/2012/02/17/afraid_of_your_childs_math_textbook_you_should_be

The author is an editor and educational consultant writing about why many newer textbooks in the public school system are so awful.

 

If I take that information and I think about who some of the owners are behind some of the big chain online schools, none of it bodes well for this country educationally.

 

I agree. My older found so many typing and/or logical errors in his math student books that I gave up submitting feedback. It was like being K12 free proofreader.

[regentrude]

 

I really don't even know how to respond to that information. Part of me feels like I will be okay because I have older classic math books on my shelves, but science? That is a whole different ball game.

 

 

As I stated before: the only reason those abysmal textbooks can survive is that the people who adopt them, namely school boards, do not have the expertise to discern good from bad texts. And this is also why you should be OK with intro college texts for science, because those will be selected by professors who are experts in the field they teach and who will be able to eliminate the bad books. So for science, sticking to popular college books will eliminate the worst problems.

[kiana]

For example if you divide an odd number by an odd number, you would expect an odd number. Some of his classmates would give an even number answer and not realized they have either press the wrong buttons on their calculator or type the wrong answer into the online class chat.

 

 

This is craziness. And I don't get it at all.

 

Example: In our "quantitative literacy" university class (read "math for people who hate math and just need one course to get a degree") we do mortgage calculations. Many people each year will come up with a monthly payment that is ridiculously far off (we are talking $3.54/month or $90,000/month far off), circle it, and move on.

 

Example: When computing area in a word problem, people will get a negative answer and not realize that that cannot be a real answer.

[Jane in NC]

This is craziness. And I don't get it at all.

 

Example: In our "quantitative literacy" university class (read "math for people who hate math and just need one course to get a degree") we do mortgage calculations. Many people each year will come up with a monthly payment that is ridiculously far off (we are talking $3.54/month or $90,000/month far off), circle it, and move on.

 

Example: When computing area in a word problem, people will get a negative answer and not realize that that cannot be a real answer.

 

It comes back to the fact that in this culture we excuse mathematical illiteracy. Some people event boast about it. Have you ever heard anyone ever boast about their inability to read?

[PeterPan]

What I have noticed from my kids virtual academy schoolmates is that most do not own a paper dictionary or thesaurus anymore. Some use a dictionary app some just never use google. Another thing is children are so used to the calculator that they no longer check if the answer makes sense.

 

 

I used a dictionary/thesaurus app (just a common freebie) for a photography class I took this year, where we needed to explore words and feelings connected with images, and it was actually a FABULOUS experience. I CAN'T IMAGINE going back to paper after that, and it makes the instructions to use a paper thesaurus in WWS seem really archaic. However I DO think it means we could use BETTER thesaurus apps. I hadn't even thought about it till you mentioned this, but maybe some of the better publishers (like my Rodales) have apps? Things have come a long way, so I should go check.

 

There's a huge information shift, and the new options can be good. I recently bought some really sophisticated Bible study software (Accordance), and what it can do with just a few strokes is MIND-BOGGLING. Accordance gives discounts to homeschoolers btw, and I highly recommend it. It's for mac, but they have a Windows version coming out sometime this year. Anyways, we used to spend hours and hours with piles of books, stickynotes, cross-referencing things, following ideas, making connections (Strong's uses this word, now look it up in Young's Analytical to see all the references where that greek/hebrew word is used, now look them all up in the Scripture, now look them up in separate commentaries). The software can get me to that final destination, WHEN I KNOW HOW TO USE IT, faster than fast.

 

If the digital tool is good and you know what you're trying to accomplish (neither of which would often be the case with young children), you can engage in the thought process possible with the technology and go faster or get results you would have struggled to get otherwise. But that assumes a decent app that is equivalent to the paper, which I don't think is the case with what I have. I should go look more. :)

 

As far as the math and reality checks, that skill of estimation (reality check, does the answer make sense) is built into the BJU math curriculum at least. Whether it's built into every other math curriculum out there, I can't say. It's one reason I like BJU stuff so much, in spite of the issues fitting it to a particular dc, because it's THOROUGH. Anyways, estimation is covered EXTENSIVELY in the BJU 4,5, and 6th grade maths. I've read posts over the years with people saying it was done too much, blah blah. It's a preventative for what you're saying though, because the kid does come out with the ability (and proficiency) to reality check, estimate, and know if he got a sensible answer, should he chose to turn on that portion of his brain. ;)

 

And yes, totally with the amazement over how texts are chosen for schools. My mother, with an art history degree who runs a museum, was on the committee to chose the math texts at the high school I attended a couple years. She asked me my opinion, and I told her I liked xyz book because of the purple cover. Bet that committee got great results. :eek:

[elegantlion]

It comes back to the fact that in this culture we excuse mathematical illiteracy. Some people event boast about it. Have you ever heard anyone ever boast about their inability to read?

 

 

Yes, a young man dh used to work with and really tried to mentor. He bragged that he hadn't read a book since 7th grade. I don't think he actually finished high school. I was shocked, but not totally surprised given who it was. In his circle of influence there was almost a bragging right about your level of ignorance. It was pretty sad.

 

Have you seen the twitter/facebook posts about vowels? Someone posted to tweet your name without vowels. Joke or not, there were several people who responded asking what a vowel was or removed them incorrectly.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I thought this was an interesting blog post:

http://open.salon.com/blog/annie_keeghan/2012/02/17/afraid_of_your_childs_math_textbook_you_should_be

The author is an editor and educational consultant writing about why many newer textbooks in the public school system are so awful.

 

 

Sadly I think there can be similar issues with homeschool materials. You need to be skeptical of marketing claims for example (if something is touted as equivalent to 2 years of high school level it is worth looking at the topics covered and comparing it to a few typical scope and sequence listings. )

 

And it also raises the question of price. Most homeschoolers are thrifty. But some seem to really resent it when an author sets a price that compensates them for the work and time invested. If you as a buyer don't think it has that value then look for something else. But don't assume that curriculum is produced at a loss or as a charitable act.

[Arcadia]

I used a dictionary/thesaurus app (just a common freebie) for a photography class I took this year, where we needed to explore words and feelings connected with images, and it was actually a FABULOUS experience. I CAN'T IMAGINE going back to paper after that, and it makes the instructions to use a paper thesaurus in WWS seem really archaic.

 

My boys use the Merriam-Webster app and I have nothing against anyone using apps. It just makes index searching, looking at the glossary or content page a forgotten skill.

 

Anyways, estimation is covered EXTENSIVELY in the BJU 4,5, and 6th grade maths. I've read posts over the years with people saying it was done too much, blah blah. It's a preventative for what you're saying though, because the kid does come out with the ability (and proficiency) to reality check, estimate, and know if he got a sensible answer, should he chose to turn on that portion of his brain. ;)

 

 

K12 math does ask the student to give both the correct answer and the estimate. My older is doing 6th grade for his virtual academy. However I think kids are now ignoring that the accurate answer is nowhere close to the estimate and so not correcting their mistake. Chances are they got the estimate correct so the answer should be within reasonable limits away from the estimate.

[PachiSusan]

My boys use the Merriam-Webster app and I have nothing against anyone using apps. It just makes index searching, looking at the glossary or content page a forgotten skill.

 

 

This is why I have not allowed Mel to use the electronic apps until she knows how to use a book, the glossary, guide words in the dictionary and the index. It's only been int he 4th grade that I've let her use the dictionary app.

[Dicentra]

I was just listening to one of SWB's audio lectures (it may have been either the middle school or high school writing lecture) and her suggestion is to turn off the spell check on all your computers. :) I believe her feeling is that students will become dependent on it and it becomes a crutch - when they DO have to write without it, they find they can't. I tend to have similiar feelings about calculators. Actually, I think I tend to have similiar feelings about any type of gadget or app - but then I'm old and curmudeon-y and a Luddite. :)

 

When I was still in the classroom, I had a shelf full of reference books in the room - CRC Handbooks, Merck Indexes - books of that nature. A student came up and wanted to know a boiling point for a particular compound. What she really wanted was for me to just tell her or look it up for her but I told her she had to look it up. :) She immediately turned around and headed to the back of the room to use the computer. I mentioned that the reference books were probably faster - I'd even help her. Nope - she was using the computer. I suggested that we have a race to see who could find the info more quickly - her on the computer or me with the reference books. I even gave her a lengthy head start. I won. :) We laughed about it after. I realize that it wasn't really a fair race since I knew exactly how to find the info and she didn't have the experience to immediately focus her search. Maybe that's the key, though - the experience I've gained from having to use the more lengthy and involved paper searches has given me a better sense of HOW to find information.

 

But, again, I am a curmudeon. :)

[1Togo]

Some other thoughts. We have used textbooks in our homeschool, and it's been good prep for college. I know that universities are different, but when our oldest attended a local uni, his courses were primarily textbook courses, so learning to deal with textbooks and the test cycle was important. For many of his courses, he had assigned reading in one or more textbooks as prep for class time. He read the material, took notes, and made flashcards for key terms and concepts. For math classes, he read the textbook and worked sample problems. He also took lecture notes in all classes. Studying his lecture and personal notes, working on writing assignments for English/lit classes,and working homework problems for math courses was part of his everyday routine, and it wasn't easy, but he earned excellent grades, and his profs enjoyed having him in their classes because he was prepared and able to participate in class discussions. I realize quick students may be able to jump into the college environment without textbook practice, but that isn't the case for all students. So, working with textbooks; i.e. taking notes and testing, is on my short list of college prep skills.

[Joan in GE]

This is a great thread - very interesting!

 

About the original question, as an 'old' homeschooler, I remember the early homeschoolers shying away from textbooks because they were:

 

a. considered biased (esp for subjects that some people feel extremely sensitive about - government, biology, economics, etc)

 

b. reminded people too much of school and they were trying to get away from 'school' type thinking

 

 

c. had constraints (ie not following rabbit trails, encourage the race to finish, etc)

 

 

d. lend themselves to the 'now i know it' mentality...as they are purported to speak about a subject, they claim a kind of expertise and perfection (inherently). If you take a bunch of different books by different authors and compare and contrast ideas etc - it is much more obvious that there is a diversity of opinions, beliefs, etc...(Yes I want my paper copy of a book, not a bundle of books in a kindle, as well)

 

 

e. didn't always cover the topics people wanted covered

 

 

f. people wanted to get away from the traditional ways of approaching a subject and try all those new products produced by homeschoolers themselves...

 

 

Now that I've been at it for so long and have spent months on end preparing plans the 'do it yourself' way where we've ended up not using half the ideas because I'd spent so much time planning that there wasn't much time left to 'implement' :-) - I have mixed opinions.

 

 

Also I've watched the Swiss schools which use very few textbooks (but photocopy enormously from a mixture of books and textbooks - thus the "photocopying kills books" warning on the back of your typical French textbook) and even have classes where the textbook consists ONLY of problems and a math dictionary basically (you guessed it, for math) and have come to these conclusions. For some subjects, a good explanatory text can be very useful!! (For the Swiss math book with no theory, if the teacher was bad, students were really lost)

 

For some subjects a textbook is our staple food - student works through the text and gets some supplementary materials (fun problems, real life experience, etc)

 

For some we do half and half - some living books, some textbook

 

For some we do primarily living books but have a text as backup for tricky explanations (ie might use once a month) and to give me just a general idea of what is typically covered (even if we don't do it)...

 

For some we do all living books but maybe use a study guide for lit analysis...

 

About some of the other posts:

 

I believe that students are no longer trained to sustain attention. They are not required to listen or read at length, because instead of counteracting, schools cater to the sound bite culture of popular media with which those kids grew up. Textbooks just follow suit.

 

 

I hate to say it but I blame Sesame Street for one ds lack of attention. We got rid of the tv for the next three and all of their attention spans are much better. I'd thought SS was supposed to be educational - and it was so convenient to pop ds1 in front of the tube....Now we pay the price...

 

But, I do need to find a way to get him interacting with the text more on his own b/c at this rate we could spend the next two years finishing just his one text. So, gradually, I'll be working on getting him to process the text on his own in the same way that he does with me. We'll still discuss, but maybe not to the extent we are currently as I try to help him acquirele skills for learning from a more difficult text. That's my goal. I think he needs some rabbit trails for the questions that arise in his mind too. It's like he needs those questions answered b/c they are part of the picture for him and all the info he's reading just won't fit without what he sees as the missing pieces.

 

 

I do see that your son is the same age as dd..

Memorization does seem to be related to 'tests' for textbooks...TTTT (to tell the truth) we didn't always do all the tests for biology last year, we did some so she would have an idea what they were like - how hard. But my goal was not that she learned everything in the book; I wanted dd to be exposed to the ideas and enjoy the topic. This year for chemistry we are...but there is less memorization...

 

There has been at least one study

(this is the first link google turned up - no time to search now:)

http://www.futurity....sier-to-retain/

 

Very interesting. I think that there is also a difference between 'ugly' fonts and just 'hard to read' fonts. And the ugly ones just make me want to run from the text..I wonder if they've studied that?

 

I think you are probably right about texts vs. computers. However, it worries me that it seems easier for me to adapt my old card catalog/text skills to modern searches than it is for my kids to adapt their computer search skills to texts. I really hope it is a lack of maturity/practice issue.

 

 

Good point...I think card catalog skills actually apply to other searches - the systematic application of a search - instead of whatever gets on the first page of the Google search.

 

I thought this was an interesting blog post:

http://open.salon.co...k_you_should_be

The author is an editor and educational consultant writing about why many newer textbooks in the public school system are so awful.

 

 

I've sent that to a math teacher relative...

 

There's a huge information shift, and the new options can be good. I recently bought some really sophisticated Bible study software (Accordance), and what it can do with just a few strokes is MIND-BOGGLING. Accordance gives discounts to homeschoolers btw, and I highly recommend it. It's for mac, but they have a Windows version coming out sometime this year. Anyways, we used to spend hours and hours with piles of books, stickynotes, cross-referencing things, following ideas, making connections (Strong's uses this word, now look it up in Young's Analytical to see all the references where that greek/hebrew word is used, now look them all up in the Scripture, now look them up in separate commentaries). The software can get me to that final destination, WHEN I KNOW HOW TO USE IT, faster than fast.

Maybe it depends on the software - I don't have the one you mention...For searching for a word or phrase, sometimes it's faster by paper and sometimes faster by an online concordance...depending on how much of the phrase I know, if I know where it is, etc...With the book, you can quickly look on the page which shows the books where a word might be...

 

I think it also depends if the computer is on and the program is already up...sometimes all that clicking takes time...more time than people realize....But then none of us are carting around our library when out of the house...so then it is much faster than running home...

 

I suggested that we have a race to see who could find the info more quickly - her on the computer or me with the reference books.

 

I have this kind of race and win too - usually with a dictionary though...but then again, we're at home. If we were out and about, well, it would take me a lot longer to get to my dictionaries...:-)

 

Joan

[Nscribe]

This is a great thread - very interesting!

 

About the original question, as an 'old' homeschooler, I remember the early homeschoolers shying away from textbooks because they were:

 

 

a. considered biased (esp for subjects that some people feel extremely sensitive about - government, biology, economics, etc)

 

b. reminded people too much of school and they were trying to get away from 'school' type thinking

 

 

c. had constraints (ie not following rabbit trails, encourage the race to finish, etc) ...

 

 

 

Joan

 

 

 

These tend to be reasons people elect to homeschool. They want to move away from formalities/conventions, avoid world views contrary to their own and have more freedom to forge a flexible path. A good textbook can be a great tool to organize and save time. I find that I tend to pick up a text for each content area (sometimes more than one) and then craft the content delivery of any given course with a blend of various tools (video, discussion, living books, games, magazines/journals,trips, outsourced classes....).

 

 

I know a lot of homeschoolers who are just as rigid in their rejection of anything that might hint to traditional approaches as those they criticize would seem to be married to them.

 

 

A textbook, like anything else, is what you make of it. For us, textbooks are part of the picture but they don't dictate our path and we don't reject them outright.

[Miss Marple]

I've been reading through the more recent responses re print vs. computer, etc. My mind turned to MacGyver! What would happen if an academic MacGyver found himself with only one resource? He'd make it work. Maybe one isn't better than the other (print vs. technology), but maybe we need to make sure our young academic MacGyvers are equipped for any situation :)

[PeterPan]

Hahaha, then I guess now would be a bad time to say we watched an episode of Mythbusters where they debunked MacGyver... :lol:

 

Actually, I was thinking I needed to look to Mythbusters for inspiration for some good bio labs! Nobody seems really happy with what they've got, so I'm still on the hunt for a good source. Gotta sit down and read that Illustrated Guide and see if it can work.

[PachiSusan]

Hahaha, then I guess now would be a bad time to say we watched an episode of Mythbusters where they debunked MacGyver... :lol:

 

Actually, I was thinking I needed to look to Mythbusters for inspiration for some good bio labs! Nobody seems really happy with what they've got, so I'm still on the hunt for a good source. Gotta sit down and read that Illustrated Guide and see if it can work.

 

 

We love "Mythbusters" and "How it's Made" here!!!

[Miss Marple]

Hahaha, then I guess now would be a bad time to say we watched an episode of Mythbusters where they debunked MacGyver... :lol:

 

Actually, I was thinking I needed to look to Mythbusters for inspiration for some good bio labs! Nobody seems really happy with what they've got, so I'm still on the hunt for a good source. Gotta sit down and read that Illustrated Guide and see if it can work.

 

 

Ah, yes, there were some sad chaps around here when we watched that Mythbuster episode :p

[PeterPan]

 

Ah, yes, there were some sad chaps around here when we watched that Mythbuster episode :p

 

Yeah, and then there was the Christmas tree episode they flubbed. Remember how they went to all those lengths spraying trees with hairspray and feeding them aspirin and bleach and... Well it turns on my massage therapist new better than all their brainiacs. The real trick? Hot water. It dissolves the sap and lets the water flow into the tree longer. :)

[PachiSusan]

 

Yeah, and then there was the Christmas tree episode they flubbed. Remember how they went to all those lengths spraying trees with hairspray and feeding them aspirin and bleach and... Well it turns on my massage therapist new better than all their brainiacs. The real trick? Hot water. It dissolves the sap and lets the water flow into the tree longer. :)

 

Ever since that episode we have freshly cut our tree, fill the stand with hot water and our trees lasted so much longer!! It's great!!!

 

<sorry for the thread hijack>

[Dicentra]

I've been thinking...

 

I think I came across as too hard-nosed about some things in this thread. Or maybe I just didn't express myself clearly enough. So I've been thinking more about my comments about being a Luddite.

 

I do understand that technology is a wonderful thing. I know that we need to make sure our children are ready and able to meet technology head-on and be able to use it effectively and efficiently. I also realize that technology can be particularly useful for people with learning disabilities and I want to apologize if I forgot to say that in my other post.

 

My concern regarding technology and the “newer is better and must be embraced†ideal that seems to be entrenched in our culture is the point at which the tools of technology stop being tools and become, for lack of a better word, crutches. My own personal feeling is that if one can no longer perform a particular task without a tool (high tech or otherwise), then that tool has become a crutch for that task and that person. Again, for myself, I find that level of dependency on technology concerning. I once heard an adult telling public high school students to not worry about knowing how to spell – if you have auto correct turned on in your word processing program, it'll just complete the word for you. In my mind, if the student becomes unable to spell basic, everyday words without a tool (a spell check, an app, or even a paper dictionary) then those tools are no longer tools but crutches – the task (spelling of the words) can no longer be completed without them. If the student can't complete basic math calculations without a calculator, then the calculator is no longer a tool because the student has become dependent on it. Letting a young child occasionally watch television or play a video game (tools) to entertain them isn't the end of the world but if the child can no longer be entertained in any other way, then those tools have become a crutch. A particular tool can make a particular task easier and quicker to accomplish but the person should still be able to accomplish the task without the tool.

 

I know, I know... It could be argued that there are many “tools†in everyday life that everyone has become dependent on but it's important for me to know that I could still complete the tasks without the tools. It's a lot quicker for me to get to the store with a vehicle – but I could probably still get there without one (although since I'm about 15 km from town, it would take a loooooooooong time). It's much easier for me to wash my clothes in a washing machine or put my dishes in the dishwasher or push a button to get heat... You get the picture. I also agree that there are certain instances where the tools of technology have given people a far better quality of life (or even life itself) where, without those medical advances, those things may not be possible. Those aren't the “dependencies†that I'm talking about.

 

"Tools" have also made higher level study (particularly in maths and sciences) accessible to many, many more people than would have been the case 200 years ago. I am ashamed to say that I don't know how to use a slide rule and so for many higher level mathematical problems, I am dependent on a calculator. When I was having the race with my student, I was still dependent on the reference book - I don't have tables of physical data for hundreds of chemicals in my head. I admit - for me, those are crutches. Maybe I see a difference between dependency on "tools" for everyday academics vs. more esoteric branches of knowledge. Or maybe I'm just trying to justify my own dependencies. Or maybe I'm still just an ornery old curmudeon. :D

 

I was just thinking that it might be a good thing for society in general to more carefully consider all of the technological tools available and to make sure that that's exactly what they remain – tools.

[PachiSusan]

I was just thinking that it might be a good thing for society in general to more carefully consider all of the technological tools available and to make sure that that's exactly what they remain – tools.

 

I am very much a techno geek - and I can honestly say that I love my Mac. That said - I do understand what you are trying to say, and I agree with you. I have a goal of cutting my "tech" time down to show my own daughter that being addicted to a tool isn't good for any of us.

[Jane in NC]

My concern regarding technology and the “newer is better and must be embraced†ideal that seems to be entrenched in our culture is the point at which the tools of technology stop being tools and become, for lack of a better word, crutches. My own personal feeling is that if one can no longer perform a particular task without a tool (high tech or otherwise), then that tool has become a crutch for that task and that person. Again, for myself, I find that level of dependency on technology concerning. I once heard an adult telling public high school students to not worry about knowing how to spell – if you have auto correct turned on in your word processing program, it'll just complete the word for you. In my mind, if the student becomes unable to spell basic, everyday words without a tool (a spell check, an app, or even a paper dictionary) then those tools are no longer tools but crutches – the task (spelling of the words) can no longer be completed without them. If the student can't complete basic math calculations without a calculator, then the calculator is no longer a tool because the student has become dependent on it. Letting a young child occasionally watch television or play a video game (tools) to entertain them isn't the end of the world but if the child can no longer be entertained in any other way, then those tools have become a crutch. A particular tool can make a particular task easier and quicker to accomplish but the person should still be able to accomplish the task without the tool.

 

I think you raise some valid points--ones that truly need thought and discussion. The mistake, I believe, is to take either of the extreme paths, i.e. to dismiss all of technology because it is 'new-fangled' or to embrace all of technology because it is new and therefore better.

 

As a college math instructor, I cannot tell you how many times students argued with me that their answer was correct because "The calculator said..." They did not consider operator error! There are so many common sense checks in math and science. If the student has a handle on concepts, he should know when the velocity is negative as opposed to positive or when the magnitude of a quantity is off base. Yet there are some kids who toss common sense out the window for the sake of their calculator answer!

 

When I receive a letter (by snail mail or email) from an organization that contains an erroneous auto-correct or spell check word replacement, I cringe. Technology does not replace the need to proof read.

 

That said, when my son was in high school, he called Google Books the great equalizer. Students without access to libraries of old books could now have instant access. But here is the thing: technology is the vehicle to bring the old (books) to the far corners of the world.

 

"Tools" have also made higher level study (particularly in maths and sciences) accessible to many, many more people than would have been the case 200 years ago. I am ashamed to say that I don't know how to use a slide rule and so for many higher level mathematical problems, I am dependent on a calculator. When I was having the race with my student, I was still dependent on the reference book - I don't have tables of physical data for hundreds of chemicals in my head. I admit - for me, those are crutches. Maybe I see a difference between dependency on "tools" for everyday academics vs. more esoteric branches of knowledge. Or maybe I'm just trying to justify my own dependencies. Or maybe I'm still just an ornery old curmudeon. :D

 

It troubles me that so many people seem to believe that if someone said it on the Internet, it must be true. At least those reference books had editors.

 

(As a side note, I am sure you are aware of the good stuff and the bad that has come out of Twitter during some of the major events of the past year. It can be a great tool--or one that perpetuates propaganda.)

 

For academics, one of the greatest gifts of the Internet is journal access. College libraries formerly housed a limited number of paper journals. Now students and professors have access to peer reviewed materials at the a touch of button. Granted, the average person cannot afford subscriptions to a number of journals---paper or online. Libraries will always have a role to play.

 

If I may join you on the curmudgeon bus...It used to irk the heck out of me when I was approached by parents at soccer and hockey games who always wanted to tell me of their kid's computer prowess. But here was the deal: their kids could load software or install their printers for them. Computer science is a math driven field--both hardware design and software algorithms. Knowing how to use a spread sheet does not imply that the kid should be a computer scientist. A true computer geek does not just use a computer. He takes it apart, he builds one, he writes code, he hacks his techno toys to void the warranty ;)... And he is trying to grasp the math behind it all! We encouraged this with our son when we thought he was leaning toward electrical/computer engineering as a middle school student. Even when it was clear later that he wanted to be an archaeologist, he was still doing goofy things like building an amplifier from the ground up. To me this is how we should look at technology: use it but understand how it works.

[shanvan]

If I may join you on the curmudgeon bus...It used to irk the heck out of me when I was approached by parents at soccer and hockey games who always wanted to tell me of their kid's computer prowess. But here was the deal: their kids could load software or install their printers for them. Computer science is a math driven field--both hardware design and software algorithms. Knowing how to use a spread sheet does not imply that the kid should be a computer scientist. A true computer geek does not just use a computer. He takes it apart, he builds one, he writes code, he hacks his techno toys to void the warranty ;)... And he is trying to grasp the math behind it all! We encouraged this with our son when we thought he was leaning toward electrical/computer engineering as a middle school student. Even when it was clear later that he wanted to be an archaeologist, he was still doing goofy things like building an amplifier from the ground up. To me this is how we should look at technology: use it but understand how it works.

 

Oh, my! I thought everyone knew this! It's why I'm completely intimidated by computer science!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think that it's important to keep in mind that any choice will have opportunity cost. It's not possible to do everything. The more time spent digging into a textbook, the less time for literature of the period. A long list of period literature and trade histories leaves less time to explore primary documents. (And the same goes for output. If I have them spend a week writing an essay or longer on a research paper, they can't spend that same time on doing a creative video presentation or creating a historical costume or modeling a historic weapon or building.)

 

So I think you have to decide 1) what is enough and 2) what gets you the best outcome for your time and money.

 

Sometimes a textbook (for example in history) gives a better overview. Sometimes a novel gives a better feel for what drove the events (Uncle Tom's Cabin, for example, imo, takes apart just about every argument justifying slavery that I've ever heard - including the argument that it wasn't specifically condemned by Christ, and therefore, must be acceptable.) Great Courses lectures are a great way to bring an expert into our home (but will not strengthen my sons' reading and analysis skills). Videos and even movies can bring events into living color. (I remember the first time I saw pictures of WW2 or even better of Tsarist Russia in color; it was like I was seeing them as real, living people for the first time.) But I don't have time for all of it. And I sure don't have time for all of it in every subject.

 

I think that a text can also be better for some subjects than others. And there are different types of textbooks. I have seen English texts from 1965, 1985 and 1995 that carry the same title and author and look like completely different books. I will leave the newer editions on the shelf, yet pick up any of the older versions I find. But I have to keep in mind that those texts are great anthologies of short works, but don't include novel length fiction.

 

On the other hand, I'd much rather spring for a newer astronomy, physics or biology textbook (within the last 5-8 years) than use one that is 20-30 years old. But these books aren't going to inspire my kid to persevere the way that Physics of the Impossibleor How I Killed Pluto and Why It Had It Coming or even The Right Stuff might.

 

With math we alternate between Art of Problem Solving (a couple years old) and Dolciani (1965) because each book has different strengths. And we also dip into Danica McKellar books and Ed Zaccaro books, because they are creative and fun. There are instances when humor and creative illustration of a concept save the day. And there are times when what my kid really, really needs is to work a string of problems until their brain wraps itself around the concept. And those turning point are different for different kids on different days for different concepts.

 

I think the text/digital divide is similar. A school or family that invests heavily in iPads or etexts won't have shelves of physical books to leaf through. I don't think that a ereader is nearly as much fun in a tree or a bathtub or on a beach. I don't know that I will enjoy cuddling a small child on the lab with a digital copy of Hercules or Go Dog Go the same way that I have memories of snuggling with a book (especially with a book that has the book imprint of my children's great grandmother on the flyleaf or the childish handwriting of their father on the inside cover). On the other hand, I'd love to have all of my field guides and nature books and tourist info in one navigable digital device. And to be able to spend 15 minutes on my Kindle and then have readable editions of several Padraic Column books, The Famous Men series and a half dozen other older children's histories to dip into is pretty incredible. When we started homeschooling, we lived overseas. History readings required lots of money and months of planning or hours on dialup searching for digital versions that I could print. A Kindle back then would have been a godsend.

 

I'm not willing to say that textbooks are bad or that they are best. There are bad textbooks. There are good textbooks. There are textbooks used poorly and used well. There are subjects that are better and less suited for learning via textbook. (And just to use up my whole quarterly aphorism quota) Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Moderation in all things. Tempus fugit [and I have Latin class in 20 minutes].

[Nscribe]

I'm not willing to say that textbooks are bad or that they are best. There are bad textbooks. There are good textbooks. There are textbooks used poorly and used well. There are subjects that are better and less suited for learning via textbook. (And just to use up my whole quarterly aphorism quota) Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Moderation in all things. Tempus fugit [and I have Latin class in 20 minutes].

 

Agreed.

 

Information fuels creativity. To the extent a textbook helps me to organize information and helps Dd to acquire it, the textbook serves us well. We have yet to employ a textbook as the sole source of learning information in any content area and I don't foresee doing so. They are often a springboard and one tool amongst others we employ to gather information. Once we gather the information, we tend to take it with us in many directions and use it for many purposes.

[PeterPan]

Sebastian, that was really helpful to see it all listed out like that. For some reason I had all the options in my MIND but hadn't actually written it out as a mathematical thing to see where I was putting time for each:

 

text

trade books

primary sources

literature

essays

projects

 

And you're right, sigh, we really can't do it all. And sometimes when we're going a certain direction with a dc, it's because we're saying, not so much that he *can't* learn with those other things (because he might use them for other subjects) but that for this subject for this time it's not the mix he needs. But you know, seems to me that I can intelligently *balance that out* over the list and entirety of his/her subjects. (essays, text, and primary sources in history, but trade books and projects in science, etc.) I just really hadn't thought of it that way, thanks. It's definitely not that I want to short shrift any category, because I do think they all ought to be hit. But they don't have to all be done for every subject every year, mercy. Even the AP classes people laud don't do that. In general those are so skewed one direction it's not even funny. But if we skew it in a different direction, oh that's bad. ;)