mazakaal Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Dd is doing Writing Tales 2 and lesson 17 has just taught that the words 'when' and 'where' can be conjunctions. Can anyone give an example of those words acting as conjunctions in a sentence? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassy Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I would have thought something like the following: 'When': "T would never bother going out to play when there was something good to watch on the television" - ie it joins "T would never bother going out to play" with "There was something good to watch on the television". 'Where': "T could always be found in the kitchen where Mum usually hid the chocolate" - ie it joins "T could always be found in the kitchen" with "Mum usually hid the chocolate". I think :001_unsure: . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mazakaal Posted January 20, 2013 Author Share Posted January 20, 2013 That's what I thought when I read through the lesson with dd, that they are subordinating conjunctions that introduce a subordinate clause. Her exercise had her label the parts of speech in the sentence, "But when he tried to pull his hand out, he found the neck of the jar was too small," and the answer key marked 'when' in that sentence as an adverb. I would have thought it was a conjunction there. Maybe the answer key was wrong. It marked 'too' in the same sentence as an adjective, but I'm sure that it's an adverb that modifies 'small.' I've never noticed a lot of mistakes in the answer key, and I'm surprised to find two in one sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tullia Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 (edited) That's what I thought when I read through the lesson with dd, that they are subordinating conjunctions that introduce a subordinate clause. Her exercise had her label the parts of speech in the sentence, "But when he tried to pull his hand out, he found the neck of the jar was too small," and the answer key marked 'when' in that sentence as an adverb. I would have thought it was a conjunction there. Maybe the answer key was wrong. It marked 'too' in the same sentence as an adjective, but I'm sure that it's an adverb that modifies 'small.' I've never noticed a lot of mistakes in the answer key, and I'm surprised to find two in one sentence. I hope someone whose had more recent practice with sentence analysis chimes in but I'll share what I see in your example. About your second example which I bolded above; I believe the key to analyzing that portion of the sentence is that the phrase "too small" follows a copula (a.k.a LV or "to be" verb). Analyzing that clause by first classifying the verb as a copula makes it possible to call "too" an adjective in that case. The justification is that in this instance "small" functions as a predicate nominative and words modifying nominatives are classified as adjectives. ETA: Normally I would classify "small" a predicate adjective. However, it's also possible to say that within the context of the sentence "small" can be looked at as a substantive because within the context of that particular sentence it is the idea of "small-ness" upon which the sentence turns. Presumably there would be no problem with a jar with a larger neck. When I find conflicts of analysis between different levels I usually go with looking at the whole sentence. One of the chief difficulties about classifying parts of speech in English is that differences of function are not always reflected in the form of the word as would be in the case in more heavily inflected languages such as Latin or Greek. In the example you cite, the word "small" is deceptive because it often functions as an adjective in which case its modifier would be classed as an adverb. I would probably fudge on your first example and say that it is a subordinating conjunction introducing a larger clause which functions as an adverb making a statement about time. If you can, contact the publisher; the author might have further thoughts about why the key reads as it does. If you have found an error, the author would probably appreciate the heads-up. The best guide for analyzing sentences I've found is to look at (1) classifying all the verbs in a sentence, (2) classifying all the phrases and clauses within the sentence, and (3) then analyzing the ways various phrases relate to one another. I learned most of this from my favorite traditional grammar guru, Robert Einarsson who has an excellent work text which you can download for free from his website. Edited January 20, 2013 by Tullia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mazakaal Posted January 20, 2013 Author Share Posted January 20, 2013 I thought that 'small' would be a predicate adjective, not a predicate nominative. Now I'm just getting more confused. I think I will have to e-mail the publisher. Thanks for the link to that worktext. I'll check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tullia Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I thought that 'small' would be a predicate adjective, not a predicate nominative. Now I'm just getting more confused. I think I will have to e-mail the publisher. Thanks for the link to that worktext. I'll check it out. Normally, I would agree with you that it's a predicate adjective. And if you look at it in the simplest mechanical terms, I believe your analysis is correct. What I've found is that once you start analyzing a particular sentence in light of the larger context and the rhetorical purposes of the author, the purely mechanical distinctions sometimes blur. I often find myself saying well, by structure this is X, but in this context as used by this author it is functioning as Y. Whether or not to go that far with analysis depends on the age of your children, and whether or not you're working with an excerpt from a longer passage or an isolated sentence in a workbook. If you're interested in the specifics, there's a wonderful out of print text called A Functional English Grammar by Margaret M. Bryant which has some useful guidelines for exploring the structure vs. function aspects of grammar. Some people find that aspect of English grammar maddening; others find it interesting. I am painfully aware that for elementary students a just get 'er done strategy is sometimes best. However, I don't think it ever hurt the students in our co-op to watch (with a certain amount of amazement) a spirited discussion among the adults about how to interpret a given sentence. IRL, it's a good thing to have such discussions, but it's best to come to a workable solution which makes sense in light of your curriculum fairly quickly lest the student (and occasionally the parent) become exasperated. I'd love to hear what you find out from the publisher! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 FWIW, I would consider small a predicate adj and too an adv. Too, like very, is always an adv (or at least I can't think of it in any other context.) But is normally a coordinating conj. BUT it seems to me that in the sentence you posted that but is being used as a conjunctive adv similar to however/yet/nevertheless. When would be a subordinating conjunction making that portion of the sentence an adverbial clause. English grammar is often far from straight-forward, so these are just my thoughts and how I would approach the sentence. I am not sure if my thoughts are correct.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tullia Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 (edited) It is probably not wise to go into a lot of functional analysis with a student just learning the basics unless you are looking at the sentence in the context of a longer passage and a structural analysis alone doesn't fit. My motto is to go for the simplest solution based on the information available whenever you can do that. However, I have an unfortunate tendency to wander down rabbit trails occasionally. That used to exasperate my son. FWIW, I ran your sentence "But when he tried to pull his hand out, he found the neck of the jar was too small," through the Harvey's Revised English Grammar instructions for analysis and order of parsing and here's what I see based on my simplified version of that template. The original would also analyze and classify all the elements in the complex predicates. 1. This is a declarative, complex sentence. 2. The principal clause has a simple subject (he) and a complex predicate (found the neck of the jar was too small) 3. The subordinate clause is introduced by a temporal adverbial conjunctive element (when); this clause has a simple subject (he) and a complex predicate (tried to pull his hand out). I'd say it's both a conjunction and and adverb. [ETA: I agree with 8 that the subordinate clause is adverbial.] 4. I would say that in this instance, the first word of the sentence (But) is merely functioning as an introduction (or maybe an appendage) to the subordinate clause and serves to soften or introduce a subordinate clause appearing at the beginning of the sentence. It doesn't appear to me to be connecting the two clauses when you put the word through the order of parsing for conjunctions. Also, the fact that the clauses are not of equal rank leads me to conclude that "But" is not functioning as a conjunction in this sentence. (Harvey's Revised English Grammar discussion of syntax rule XX about other uses of coordinating conjunctions.) Edited January 21, 2013 by Tullia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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