momsuz123 Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 I have posted about this before, and tried everything under the sun you all mention, but here I am again, same problem. My 7 y/o dd needs, really needs phonics help. She was seen by an audiologist because we thought maybe she had an auditory processing disorder. She doesn't. Because of all of her ear infections (third set of tubes right now), she basically just hasn't "heard" enough of the world. Make sense? She has learned words "wrong". We tried LIPS; didn't work. We now have a SLP who is OG trained. I tried to do more on our own, but we just aren't getting anywhere. Reward charts - don't work. Nothing has worked. I was thinking of literally taking her to store tomorrow to find something she really, really wants. Then I buy it and say that every time we finish our "speech" work, she gets it. I don't know, probably not a good idea, but I need something. It is hard for her, I get that. But I slow down and go back to the beginning, then she is too bored. She really got off track with adding -ed. Any thoughts? I'll cross post this to another board here too. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwg Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 How is her hearing now? Think it will just take some time for her to hear enough of the world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Something my son had when he went to (very difficult for him speech therapy): he had his reward down on a piece of paper by him, and he knew how many tokens he needed to get his reward (playing a game, a snack -- he picked a picture). The teacher would just slide tokens to him. Or, tell him to move a token over -- these would be with velcro. So he was getting lots of little tokens, and earning rewards pretty quickly. Then he would have a timer going while he did the reward. I never managed anything like that, but I saw my son do well with it. At home he did good with short, frequent practices. Sometimes I would have things I kept in the kitchen, and we just worked on it when we were in the kitchen (so every snack and meal and drink-at-the-kitchen-table). I have tried setting a timer for a short time (like 2 minutes) and saying if he tried for 2 minutes he could do something he wanted ---- but it doesn't work. Nothing where I try to say "do 5" or set the timer works. It works for things that are not fraught. It is hard if she is getting anxious and fraught ---- really I think then you have to do what you can to not be fraught and try to not fuel her being anxious. But easier said than done! And also -- I don't want to teach him he "should" be anxious. My son would do well with doing something easy for him, or that he only had to copy me doing, and then something harder, and then back to something easier. The "easy hard easy" did do pretty good with him. But he would not get bored doing something easy. I know I have to work very hard not to let me being anxious transfer to him ---- not that in any way do I think I cause him to be anxious, it is just difficult work. But I think I can contribute to it. Or, I can try not to be anxious and let that be what I contribute. So I try to think of positive things or remember he is my kid and so what if he is x age and at x level. Or I try to notice very small progress and be happy about it, instead of being dissatisfied that it is slow. How well I do at this varies, but I feel like, I get reminders sometimes that I need to not add any anxiety to him. He kind-of wilts with pressure when it has to do with reading or speech though. He does not with other things, but pressure will make him be fraught, and when he is fraught, he does not perform as well (if he performs at all). It is just how he is I have to work with it. If she responds to more pressure -- as I think a lot of kids do, like it focuses their mind -- then the big reward sounds very good. It would just not work for my son, it would not focus his mind. But I have a feeling like -- you know her, and if you think it would help, it will probably help. It was "sell the shell" here, but I think it does also just take a little time for speech therapy to work. It gets better, though. Just today my son thought I was saying "bad" when I was saying "bath" and got a little upset with me (I was asking my younger son if he wanted to be a "bath boy" and he got put out with me thinking I was calling him a "bad boy"). But it is less now! But when he hears words that way, it is going to be so much harder for him! But now it is really much less overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momsuz123 Posted January 20, 2013 Author Share Posted January 20, 2013 Lecka - thanks for all the advice. KWG - Her hearing is good now, but she has one tube working, one out. So, just last month she had fluid in the ear without the tube, luckily, it drained out by her next check up (so she may have been hearing muffled from that side for a month). I did some more brainstorming. Here is some ideas I came up with. One the days she has speech with her SLP, she earns a coupon from my coupon book. My dd and I thought up different ideas for coupons. Some examples we came up with are staying up later with mom and dad, getting "special/extra" 1 on 1 time with mom or dad, getting extra dessert, picking the dinner for the family, etc. The Then on the other days when she has to do speech/phonics work with me we came up with this: after speech work she gets to pick her own activity for a set amount of time (maybe 15 minutes), maybe a special "toy bin/craft bin" that only comes out after her speech work is done, etc. We are still working on adding to this. I bought some letter/number swappers, a blow up ball with letters on it, some card game with more reading on it, etc. Thinking of adding in more gross motor/kinesthetic activity with her speech work. Any other ideas? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SadieMarie Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 What of you looked for an online game type program? Could she use headphones? Sometimes it is helpful to take myself our of the equation when things are getting frustrating. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwg Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I'm sorry- she is not doing her phonics work? Like won't learn to read? Or her speech work? Or both :p Sounds like you have some good ideas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 In the summer here, the public pools open at 1:00 p.m. That was the best motivating thing he had. I prefer going at about 3:00 instead of when the sun is glaring down, so if he could earn going at 1:00 that was a big thing. But usually we went at 3:00 and that was fine, too. It never came up that we didn't go over that, though, but I think it helped him in the morning to think of swimming. It was more like -- maybe if a lot of things got done in the morning, we would go early, right when the pool opened. For littler rewards, it took him a while to roll balls with play dough and I would sit and roll balls for him or help him make a snake. If it would go good with her, maybe you could do a craft while she did phonics. For some things he could do playdough while he was doing something (like reading a list of words). If you had something that could be broken up, you could do little bits of each. My son can do that with playdough, and wants to roll out dough and then make cookie cutters, or something. He could never do that with Legos, he hates to be interrupted then. But for playdough or coloring it is good. Plus I would try to encourage playdough with him or any coloring (since he is a little bit reluctant with coloring). But I can see it working better to get over the phonics and then do it. I think playdough can cut down on rolling around on the floor, but sometimes, rolling around on the floor is what it would take. I also sometimes would need to give him a lot of time to answer and repeat. It is hard to tell when this is getting into avoidance but if he seems to be trying I would give him a lot of time to answer and repeat, and also I would try to give him a hint if he was stuck in getting started. (I really found the Abecedarian error correction guide helpful, for how to prompt him.) Right now he has a thing sometimes where he does not want to be helped/prompted, but then if he gets frustrated, it is my fault, I was supposed to read his mind to know he wanted to be helped/prompted and I didn't do it. He is 7 now and if it is a 7 thing, I just try to have a conversation about how much help he wants. I don't know that it is really effective. I have tried for me to point and then he can say if he wants me to help -- it is unobtrusive. But he is at a point where it is reasonable for him to realize he has made a mistake by context and self-correct, and also he can feel like, he only made a small mistake, he doesn't want to be interruped for it. I started in the school of "correct all mistakes" but I have loosened up a lot on that, but partly b/c his mistakes tend to be phonetically correct but not the right word, instead of a crazy mistake. I think for the dig/dug, I don't know if it would be something worth letting go b/c overall she is getting it, or if it is a sign she is not reading through the word and doesn't really know the sounds. Something I have seen recommended -- you write something like "dig dig dig dug dug dig dug dig dig" and have her read it. I have also seen that people will write some sentences on the computer and make the vowels be a different color and/or have a different color for each vowel. I have only done this with a whiteboard and different color markers. It is not a top thing I do but it has helped sometimes to give him an "a ha" moment when he had been confusing two things. But it is not going to do something that needs to be done in speech therapy, either. My son can get a mood where he doesn't like to be corrected, also, it is much more in reading. I actually can't work with him at all in speech (besides repeating back to give a correct example). He was too frustrated and having trouble with intelligibility and just being understood was frustrating, so he could not take being corrected on top of that. So I think it is great she will do speech with you! I looked for the least-hurtful ways to correct him for reading. I also was on a yahoo group with people who had more experience with kids. One woman said she would just point for a mistake, and I do that. I think now, that when he is concentrating, it is VERY distracting to him to have someone speak to him. So a correction that does not involve talking is much better. So that means pointing, or touching his hand (with that he can ignore me or ask for help, it is his choice) works well. If I think to myself "not good" then it can be better to keep quiet and then later or the next day have something I want him to do that addresses the problem (not right after -- he could get touchy -- though I can tell from his mood/effort if he would be fine with immediately afterward). One woman said she followed above text with a pencil eraser or pen point, and would pause over a problem, or pause over the part of the word, so pause over the i or u. I have had some luck with that but not so much, as I do find it can make him lose his train of thought. If he has read and realizes it doesn't make sense and is looking to figure out which word he has mispronounced, then he does appreciate it. If he thinks I am being too picky though he would get put out, so I am less picky. But I also think -- if there are a lot of mistakes like that, I would add in single words or looking at words and consider doing less text. Even though text is good. But with text it is a lot harder to point these things out. If she could do it with single words but then not in text, I think I might let it go. It is hard to do everything right in text and maybe she is doing a huge number of things right, that are not required to read single words. For me it was strange and exciting to realize he was at the "normal new reader" level, where that general advice to back off and let kids make mistakes unless it changed the meaning of the story or they were confused, would start to make sense and be appropriate. It is a big shift after being used to him having no idea how to sound out a word and no consistent strategy or ability to sound out a word. But he did get there! I have had more ideas for non-speaking ways to have his attention. Touching his hand, touching the line where the mistake has occurred, etc. I haven't had the best success or regular, consistent success with anything in particular. But, I have had a lack of frustration that I am guaranteed with a verbal "interruption." But it can be hard to know when it is worth interrupting and not worth interrupting sometimes. At this point -- there is no issue with this with a word list, and I feel like in text I can let it go. So this has gotten better. Previously this was a bigger deal, when he was newish to text. I don't think you can always just back off and let them read errors. I think -- he just made it through. I have only worked with him and don't really feel like I know a great way to get through that point of there being quite a few errors that make you question their basic understanding. But he has gotten past that level now at least, and it is much easier now. Now it is like -- he is reading things with an occassional multisyllable word, and some he can get, and some he can't get. So he does not mind having help, it is just not fraught like it was previously, when the whole thing was that level of difficulty. I think your ideas sound good :) edit: Right now he also has a lot of trouble with phrasing (in a fluency way). This means, he has read correctly, but has read the words grouped the wrong way, so it does not make sense or seems awkward. He does things like read a line that could have ended, but didn't, it had the rest of a sentence on the next line. Then he reads the next line, starting with the end of the previous sentence, as if it is the beginning of the following sentence. And then -- it will not make a lot of sense. So this is taking him a while to get, too. We have been working on fluency like this for more than 6 months. He is making progress. But this is the kind of thing that makes text more difficult than a list of words. It is easy for me to see this when he is reading a little more difficult stuff. But, I did not realize it at all when he was reading early readers. But now in retrospect, I can see he was having this same trouble figuring out the sentence groupings, even with very early readers. I have not done too much with this, but in a Wiley Blevins books I had from the library, there were suggestions for oral activities to do with kids where they get practice in breaking up a phrase into chunks correctly. I remember it said the natural pauses usually went around a prepositional phrase or another kind of phrase (something with an adjective?). He also recommended writing in slants to show a natural pause or phrase. I have also seen recommended to use the color yellow for a pause and the color red for a long pause (like a period). I have looked in another book about fluency at the library and it had more suggestions like this. Some really can be done as oral activities, though. If this is a possible issue, then I recommend trying to separate this issue from only "when she reads text in beginning readers." Then it is asking her to do a lot of things at once. It could be easier if she had separated practice for this, too, besides only practice in reading words. Something I have done, that was recommended to me, is when I read to him, sometimes make an error (either on purpose, or going out of my way when I realize I am self-correcting a small error). So I will read a sentence with the wrong pause, and then go through this modeling thing of "that didn't make sense, let me re-read, let me try the pause here, let me try the pause there." My son can usually correct me and find the proper phrasing/pause on his own. But this way it does not seem like work to him, and also he is doing it with a lot of context (the context of whatever I am reading to him, vs. just a sentence from something he has a "work" association with). I don't do it too much of he would catch on and then refuse to have anything to do with it. I think this is not necessary for a lot of kids, though. I have found my son is not picking up phrasing really easily, though, and there is quite a bit of good advice in mainstream books about fluency (I have read one from the library and read a section from another book). Poems are also supposed to be really good for working on phrasing breaks and pauses, but the last time I made a little try on this, it seemed like it was not a good time. I have got my eye on that, though. Maybe this summer. I have a book of funny Halloween poems that he does enjoy. There are kind-of two categories for fluency. One is for just practicing reading to gain fluency. The second is specifically teaching how to read fluently (by modeling fluent reading, and then giving pointers, and practicing reading something just to read it in a way that sounds good with phrasing and pauses). They are both good. It is good to know the both exist, though. I am more focused right now on the first, just practicing reading to gain fluency, and there are specific recommendations for this (repeated reading, previewing, reading together, etc.). But not everything will mention the more specific ways to teach: this is where you look for a pause to be, this is a way to practice pausing, this is a way to practice phrasing. A lot of things assume this does not need to be taught directly, kids will pick it up if you model fluent reading, just model more fluent reading. But I think the specific ways to teach this are out there. I have read on here or somewhere, of a woman who would walk with her child, while reading, and have him stop walking at a period. There are things like that and more recommendations in library books etc. I am (finally) past feeling bad or offended when something suggests that if a child has a problem, the cause and solution are that the child has not been exposed to fluent reading. I read TONS to him. I have always read tons to him. Now I just role my eyes and keep looking for better ideas, beyond the old "model fluent reading." Though of course I agree to model fluent reading, just it is not the only answer, maybe there are specific ways to teach component skills. This is where we are right now, though. My son is not rushing through on fluency even though his decoding (2nd-grade level, one-syllable word) is pretty good now. He is doing good. But now it is hard for him to phrase well in any longer sentence, and even with short sentences, he can get where he gave the wrong word emphasis, and it throws him off. I am seeing progress, but he is not flying through. There is not a thing of "well we finished the phonics program and he went into some high level." And, it is a lot b/c he does not have an instinct for phrasing. But he is really making progress. I can tell a big difference now, that he can read things that tend to have short sentences, even if they are kind-of hard in other ways, and do pretty well. I think this is why he has fatigue, also, though. I don't think it is only phonics/sounding words out that makes him get tired or make a lot of effort in reading. His reading is "effortful" (I love this word but always think it sounds made up) still,and I realize more how many pieces there are for him. His listening comprehension is pretty good though, so I don't think this needs to hold him back in learning if he can listen to books or watch a lecture instead of only depend on reading. But I am also hoping/expecting him to keep making progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3us4 Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Have you tried All About Spelling? It's phonics based, incremental and incorporates lots of review. Also, I would recommend Phonics Pathways and Reading Pathways. I use both with my daughter who has issues with language, sensory integration and ADHD. p.s I tutor English language learners and find both these program to be quite successful, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merry gardens Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 What exactly didn't work with LiPS? Was she unable to see the different ways the mouth forms? Was she unable to feel the vibrations? Which specific sounds does she struggling to differentiate? I might be able to offer you some help with LiPS. If I remember right, didn't you do vt about the same time you were trying LiPS? Maybe it was just too much therapy at one time for her to handle. How far did she get with LiPS and has she tried it since she stopped vt? If she can't distinguish differences between enough sounds, at a certain point phonics becomes extremely frustrating and virtually impossible. It's my theory that that's why some teachers teach every word as sight words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3us4 Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Oh, I forgot to mention K-12 Phonics! Very good, incremental, lots of review, too. Again, I've found this to be successful with English language learners as well. You mentioned boredom. How about echo reading? You read a sentence, then she re-reads it. Echo reading is an activity primarily designed to build fluency and children seem to enjoy it b/c they feel successful. Try incorporating this into your phonics or read aloud time. It helps. She could pick a book or a passage of interest at or below her reading level. Ask a librarian for high interest books that have less challenging content (readability) but would be of interest for a child her age. There is an online program, Reading A-Z, which I haven't tried, but am quite impressed with it. It is also incremental with high-interest, leveled readers. 'Leveled readers' means these are stories designed specifically for whatever level your child is reading. You can keep track of how she is doing, print out the readers, etc. Check it out. Remember having to read in that foreign language class you took in school? Oh, it's so energy draining! I just wanted to go to sleep after 20 minutes. (LOL) When children have difficulty reading, they feel like that, too. Hope this helps. Blessings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merry gardens Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 ... She really got off track with adding -ed. Any thoughts? ... By getting off track with adding -ed, do you mean the past tense ending? /ed/ /d/ /t/ ? It changes, depending on what sound comes in front. That can be very confusing. Plus, it frequently adds another syllable to the word--so does that mean she's reached decoding multi-syallable words already? My son didn't really start reading multi-syllable words successfully until Level Four of Barton--which he got to about two years into his reading remediation. Barton is a very strong phonics program developed for people with dyslexia. It has much more scripting that LiPS and it comes with training videos, so it's very easy for the teacher to use. It progresses in a different order than many programs. If she's had enough LiPS to pass the Barton student screen, you might consider trying Barton. (If you want to do that, since she's done some LiPS, contact Barton for placement testing.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momsuz123 Posted January 22, 2013 Author Share Posted January 22, 2013 OMG! You ladies are so awesome! Thanks so much for taking the time out of your busy day to help me help my daughter. Okay, where to begin - Merry Gardens. With LIPS she was just soo frustrated all the time. I would just go to pull it out, and the crying would start. Mind you, she is not typically a big complainer. With Lips, she never hardly got past the picture stage where she had to learn the names of the lips ie. tongue tapper, skinny air, etc. I tried to slowly move on and see if things would get better, but she seemed so confused with it all. I sometimes wonder if we should have done it much, much, much slower than recommended. Yes, she was going through VT at the same time too. So yeah, maybe just too much. Also with adding -ed, yes I mean the different sounds -ed makes when added to the base word. How sometimes it says /d/, /t/, or /ed/. Yes, I was surprised at how fast this is added in with OG. But this is what the slp therapist added in on level 4 (maybe 5 - I should go check). The slp is just taking her level by level through the OG method. The 2 levels were words like (oh, I have to go get it now) am, as, fig, fib, jab, jets, mats (so simple cvc words with also learning the plural s). Level 3 was words like bum, buns, gums, Gus, hubs, puck, pups, suck, tuck. (so adding the -ck). Level 4 was words like docks, fob, got, hobs, hocks,bodkin, inset, madman, ransack, rocks,vivid, vomit. (Level 4 was starting to get tricky, but not too bad). Level 5 was adding the -ed and -ing. Holy cow, that got hard. It is words like back, backed, beg, begged, digging, hacking, hacked, jotting, letting, licked, and so on. Level 6 was, well, that was when the tears came and I told the slp that we just couldn't go at this pace any more. Level 6 words are annex, ax, axes, boxes, boxing, foxes, fixing, lummox, mixes, quack, quacking, etc. (so adding the -x and - qu into words along with everything else). Yes, I didn't even hardly due level 6 at home because I saw the deer in the headlights look. Okay, I need to go make dinner, but will come back and reply to you wonderful ladies soon - thank you all. Let me all send you a virtual hug!! Lecka - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 If it makes you feel any better, some of those words would still be ones my son would pause on. Those words with a lot of consonants, where the tongue or throat position changes from the first to last sound, that are fast words ----- those are still hard on him. Recently he read a page in Magic Tree House and got hung up on the word "act." It happened to be on this page at least 3 times, and he had trouble each time (though he got it after the first time without help). Some of these kinds of words just stay hard. His old speech sounds are still more trouble for him than words that don't have his speech sounds. Where it would seem like "suck" and "tuck" would be equally hard, he would do fine with suck b/c the s sound is not a problem for him (he did have s in speech but it is not one of his real problem ones), but then "tuck" would be harder, b/c it has t and k in it. All the words you have for "ed" would be hard for him. It was also hard for him sometimes to add the "t" sound in ed,d,t. He did better with ed and d, and then t was harder. (I covered ed,d,t with a combination of I See Sam and AAS, and it was hard for him. It took quite a bit of time. -ing was much easier.) I just say that to say -- these are still hard for him, while he does fine with words with easier sounds but harder phonics (like, ea, ay, ai, etc.) Now that he has gotten through them, he has them, but his old sounds are better but still what is hard. They are kind-of like tongue twisters to him. I am also impressed with you guys that do LIPS at home!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momsuz123 Posted January 22, 2013 Author Share Posted January 22, 2013 Lecka - yes I know that this is just going to take a lot longer than I originally anticipated. That's okay. I am on no one's timeline. There is no timeline. Just know she was reading a Katie Woo book with me. She reads one page, I read one page. When she come's across a word, ie. skunk, and bunch (those darn blends) I just help her try and sound it out and move on. She tires fast, so I don't push her when she asks me to read the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momsuz123 Posted January 22, 2013 Author Share Posted January 22, 2013 Oh, I forgot to mention K-12 Phonics! Very good, incremental, lots of review, too. Again, I've found this to be successful with English language learners as well. You mentioned boredom. How about echo reading? You read a sentence, then she re-reads it. Echo reading is an activity primarily designed to build fluency and children seem to enjoy it b/c they feel successful. Try incorporating this into your phonics or read aloud time. It helps. She could pick a book or a passage of interest at or below her reading level. Ask a librarian for high interest books that have less challenging content (readability) but would be of interest for a child her age. There is an online program, Reading A-Z, which I haven't tried, but am quite impressed with it. It is also incremental with high-interest, leveled readers. 'Leveled readers' means these are stories designed specifically for whatever level your child is reading. You can keep track of how she is doing, print out the readers, etc. Check it out. Remember having to read in that foreign language class you took in school? Oh, it's so energy draining! I just wanted to go to sleep after 20 minutes. (LOL) When children have difficulty reading, they feel like that, too. Hope this helps. Blessings! Thanks for this. I will most definetely look into what you mentioned. I have never heard of echo reading. I'll give it a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momsuz123 Posted January 22, 2013 Author Share Posted January 22, 2013 Have you tried All About Spelling? It's phonics based, incremental and incorporates lots of review. Also, I would recommend Phonics Pathways and Reading Pathways. I use both with my daughter who has issues with language, sensory integration and ADHD. p.s I tutor English language learners and find both these program to be quite successful, too. Yes, we started with AAS. She was doing awesome. Then those darn blends. Total wall. Complete and total stand still. I bought Phonics and Reading Pathways - but to be honest that was when I was thinking I could find a quick fix. Then reality hit. I still haven't used the Pathways much at all. Not proud of that, but I think it was when I was accepting that this was going to be a long haul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 The blends were really hard for my son, too. The hardest were final blends with k or t. Some final blends were easier. He would have done okay with bunch, at a certain point, while still having a hard time with skunk. Skunk is just a hard word (two blends! ends in k!). /sympathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momsuz123 Posted January 22, 2013 Author Share Posted January 22, 2013 In the summer here, the public pools open at 1:00 p.m. That was the best motivating thing he had. I prefer going at about 3:00 instead of when the sun is glaring down, so if he could earn going at 1:00 that was a big thing. But usually we went at 3:00 and that was fine, too. It never came up that we didn't go over that, though, but I think it helped him in the morning to think of swimming. It was more like -- maybe if a lot of things got done in the morning, we would go early, right when the pool opened. For littler rewards, it took him a while to roll balls with play dough and I would sit and roll balls for him or help him make a snake. If it would go good with her, maybe you could do a craft while she did phonics. Great Idea For some things he could do playdough while he was doing something (like reading a list of words). If you had something that could be broken up, you could do little bits of each. My son can do that with playdough, and wants to roll out dough and then make cookie cutters, or something. He could never do that with Legos, he hates to be interrupted then. But for playdough or coloring it is good. Plus I would try to encourage playdough with him or any coloring (since he is a little bit reluctant with coloring). But I can see it working better to get over the phonics and then do it. I think playdough can cut down on rolling around on the floor, but sometimes, rolling around on the floor is what it would take. Yes, this is a great idea. She does love certain crafts. I will add this asap. I also sometimes would need to give him a lot of time to answer and repeat. It is hard to tell when this is getting into avoidance but if he seems to be trying I would give him a lot of time to answer and repeat, and also I would try to give him a hint if he was stuck in getting started. (I really found the Abecedarian error correction guide helpful, for how to prompt him.) What is the Abecedarain error correction guide? Right now he has a thing sometimes where he does not want to be helped/prompted, but then if he gets frustrated, it is my fault, I was supposed to read his mind to know he wanted to be helped/prompted and I didn't do it. He is 7 now and if it is a 7 thing, I just try to have a conversation about how much help he wants. I don't know that it is really effective. I have tried for me to point and then he can say if he wants me to help -- it is unobtrusive. But he is at a point where it is reasonable for him to realize he has made a mistake by context and self-correct, and also he can feel like, he only made a small mistake, he doesn't want to be interruped for it. I started in the school of "correct all mistakes" but I have loosened up a lot on that, but partly b/c his mistakes tend to be phonetically correct but not the right word, instead of a crazy mistake. Yes, my dd's self esteem needs help. She one day said, "I am tired of doing everything wrong!" I felt so bad, so yes, even though I was never mean or abrasive or anything (quite the opposite) she knows when she "got it wrong". So I try and really praise what she is doing right. I think for the dig/dug, I don't know if it would be something worth letting go b/c overall she is getting it, or if it is a sign she is not reading through the word and doesn't really know the sounds. Something I have seen recommended -- you write something like "dig dig dig dug dug dig dug dig dig" and have her read it. I have also seen that people will write some sentences on the computer and make the vowels be a different color and/or have a different color for each vowel. I have only done this with a whiteboard and different color markers. It is not a top thing I do but it has helped sometimes to give him an "a ha" moment when he had been confusing two things. But it is not going to do something that needs to be done in speech therapy, either.Good idea - I know Dianne Craft has different color letters in her words. My son can get a mood where he doesn't like to be corrected, also, it is much more in reading. I actually can't work with him at all in speech (besides repeating back to give a correct example). He was too frustrated and having trouble with intelligibility and just being understood was frustrating, so he could not take being corrected on top of that. So I think it is great she will do speech with you! Well, we don't have a choice. Her SLP assigns what we are to work on for the next week or so, and then come back and see if she is ready for the next level. I looked for the least-hurtful ways to correct him for reading. I also was on a yahoo group with people who had more experience with kids. One woman said she would just point for a mistake, and I do that. I think now, that when he is concentrating, it is VERY distracting to him to have someone speak to him. So a correction that does not involve talking is much better. Good idea. Just pointing. So that means pointing, or touching his hand (with that he can ignore me or ask for help, it is his choice) works well. If I think to myself "not good" then it can be better to keep quiet and then later or the next day have something I want him to do that addresses the problem (not right after -- he could get touchy -- though I can tell from his mood/effort if he would be fine with immediately afterward). One woman said she followed above text with a pencil eraser or pen point, and would pause over a problem, or pause over the part of the word, so pause over the i or u. I have had some luck with that but not so much, as I do find it can make him lose his train of thought. If he has read and realizes it doesn't make sense and is looking to figure out which word he has mispronounced, then he does appreciate it. If he thinks I am being too picky though he would get put out, so I am less picky. But I also think -- if there are a lot of mistakes like that, I would add in single words or looking at words and consider doing less text. Even though text is good. But with text it is a lot harder to point these things out. If she could do it with single words but then not in text, I think I might let it go. It is hard to do everything right in text and maybe she is doing a huge number of things right, that are not required to read single words. Actually, sometimes I think she does better reading words in text, because she uses the pictures and the words in the sentence to help "guess/figure out" the word. For me it was strange and exciting to realize he was at the "normal new reader" level, where that general advice to back off and let kids make mistakes unless it changed the meaning of the story or they were confused, would start to make sense and be appropriate. It is a big shift after being used to him having no idea how to sound out a word and no consistent strategy or ability to sound out a word. But he did get there! YAY! I have had more ideas for non-speaking ways to have his attention. Touching his hand, touching the line where the mistake has occurred, etc. I haven't had the best success or regular, consistent success with anything in particular. But, I have had a lack of frustration that I am guaranteed with a verbal "interruption." But it can be hard to know when it is worth interrupting and not worth interrupting sometimes. At this point -- there is no issue with this with a word list, and I feel like in text I can let it go. So this has gotten better. Previously this was a bigger deal, when he was newish to text. I don't think you can always just back off and let them read errors. I think -- he just made it through. I have only worked with him and don't really feel like I know a great way to get through that point of there being quite a few errors that make you question their basic understanding. But he has gotten past that level now at least, and it is much easier now. Now it is like -- he is reading things with an occassional multisyllable word, and some he can get, and some he can't get. So he does not mind having help, it is just not fraught like it was previously, when the whole thing was that level of difficulty. I think your ideas sound good :) edit: Right now he also has a lot of trouble with phrasing (in a fluency way). This means, he has read correctly, but has read the words grouped the wrong way, so it does not make sense or seems awkward. He does things like read a line that could have ended, but didn't, it had the rest of a sentence on the next line. Then he reads the next line, starting with the end of the previous sentence, as if it is the beginning of the following sentence. And then -- it will not make a lot of sense. Yes, she has this problem too, although it is getting better. So this is taking him a while to get, too. We have been working on fluency like this for more than 6 months. He is making progress. But this is the kind of thing that makes text more difficult than a list of words. It is easy for me to see this when he is reading a little more difficult stuff. But, I did not realize it at all when he was reading early readers. But now in retrospect, I can see he was having this same trouble figuring out the sentence groupings, even with very early readers. I have not done too much with this, but in a Wiley Blevins books I had from the library, there were suggestions for oral activities to do with kids where they get practice in breaking up a phrase into chunks correctly. I remember it said the natural pauses usually went around a prepositional phrase or another kind of phrase (something with an adjective?). He also recommended writing in slants to show a natural pause or phrase. I have also seen recommended to use the color yellow for a pause and the color red for a long pause (like a period). I have looked in another book about fluency at the library and it had more suggestions like this. Some really can be done as oral activities, though. If this is a possible issue, then I recommend trying to separate this issue from only "when she reads text in beginning readers." Then it is asking her to do a lot of things at once. It could be easier if she had separated practice for this, too, besides only practice in reading words. Something I have done, that was recommended to me, is when I read to him, sometimes make an error (either on purpose, or going out of my way when I realize I am self-correcting a small error). So I will read a sentence with the wrong pause, and then go through this modeling thing of "that didn't make sense, let me re-read, let me try the pause here, let me try the pause there." My son can usually correct me and find the proper phrasing/pause on his own. But this way it does not seem like work to him, and also he is doing it with a lot of context (the context of whatever I am reading to him, vs. just a sentence from something he has a "work" association with). I don't do it too much of he would catch on and then refuse to have anything to do with it. Good ideas. I think this is not necessary for a lot of kids, though. I have found my son is not picking up phrasing really easily, though, and there is quite a bit of good advice in mainstream books about fluency (I have read one from the library and read a section from another book). Poems are also supposed to be really good for working on phrasing breaks and pauses, but the last time I made a little try on this, it seemed like it was not a good time. I have got my eye on that, though. Maybe this summer. I have a book of funny Halloween poems that he does enjoy. There are kind-of two categories for fluency. One is for just practicing reading to gain fluency. The second is specifically teaching how to read fluently (by modeling fluent reading, and then giving pointers, and practicing reading something just to read it in a way that sounds good with phrasing and pauses). They are both good. It is good to know the both exist, though. I am more focused right now on the first, just practicing reading to gain fluency, and there are specific recommendations for this (repeated reading, previewing, reading together, etc.). But not everything will mention the more specific ways to teach: this is where you look for a pause to be, this is a way to practice pausing, this is a way to practice phrasing. A lot of things assume this does not need to be taught directly, kids will pick it up if you model fluent reading, just model more fluent reading. But I think the specific ways to teach this are out there. I have read on here or somewhere, of a woman who would walk with her child, while reading, and have him stop walking at a period. There are things like that and more recommendations in library books etc. I am (finally) past feeling bad or offended when something suggests that if a child has a problem, the cause and solution are that the child has not been exposed to fluent reading. Yeah, I would just laugh at the person if they said that to me - totally not the case here either. I read TONS to him. I have always read tons to him. Now I just role my eyes and keep looking for better ideas, beyond the old "model fluent reading." Though of course I agree to model fluent reading, just it is not the only answer, maybe there are specific ways to teach component skills. This is where we are right now, though. My son is not rushing through on fluency even though his decoding (2nd-grade level, one-syllable word) is pretty good now. He is doing good. But now it is hard for him to phrase well in any longer sentence, and even with short sentences, he can get where he gave the wrong word emphasis, and it throws him off. I am seeing progress, but he is not flying through. There is not a thing of "well we finished the phonics program and he went into some high level." And, it is a lot b/c he does not have an instinct for phrasing. But he is really making progress. I can tell a big difference now, that he can read things that tend to have short sentences, even if they are kind-of hard in other ways, and do pretty well. I think this is why he has fatigue, also, though. I don't think it is only phonics/sounding words out that makes him get tired or make a lot of effort in reading. His reading is "effortful" (I love this word but always think it sounds made up) still,and I realize more how many pieces there are for him. His listening comprehension is pretty good though, so I don't think this needs to hold him back in learning if he can listen to books or watch a lecture instead of only depend on reading. But I am also hoping/expecting him to keep making progress. You are doing so much for him - good for you!! He is so lucky to have you as his mom! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 http://www.abcdrp.com/docs/ABCD_ErrorCorrectionPractice.pdf This was really helpful to me for making corrections. I don't do just this way now, but it was really helpful. I think doing it just this way can be on the interrupting side, so sometimes I might just prompt with one side or one little part of the word. At this point, if I am going to ask him to re-read a word, I point at the top, and he knows to re-read it slowly, and I might just help with one little part of the re-reading. But he knows to re-read it slowly and make sure to look at all the letters. This helped me to get specific with showing him what to do, though. Before I could do the notched card, and that is good, but this was good after we quit using the card. This is more independent... with me holding the card he would not feel like he was doing it himself, at a certain point, and I like for him to do things like hold the book himself. He can start to get passive and he does better when he is not being passive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merry gardens Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 ...Also with adding -ed, yes I mean the different sounds -ed makes when added to the base word. How sometimes it says /d/, /t/, or /ed/. Yes, I was surprised at how fast this is added in with OG. But this is what the slp therapist added in on level 4 (maybe 5 - I should go check). The slp is just taking her level by level through the OG method. The 2 levels were words like (oh, I have to go get it now) am, as, fig, fib, jab, jets, mats (so simple cvc words with also learning the plural s). Level 3 was words like bum, buns, gums, Gus, hubs, puck, pups, suck, tuck. (so adding the -ck). Level 4 was words like docks, fob, got, hobs, hocks,bodkin, inset, madman, ransack, rocks,vivid, vomit. (Level 4 was starting to get tricky, but not too bad). Level 5 was adding the -ed and -ing. Holy cow, that got hard. It is words like back, backed, beg, begged, digging, hacking, hacked, jotting, letting, licked, and so on. Level 6 was, well, that was when the tears came and I told the slp that we just couldn't go at this pace any more. Level 6 words are annex, ax, axes, boxes, boxing, foxes, fixing, lummox, mixes, quack, quacking, etc. (so adding the -x and - qu into words along with everything else). .... When she come's across a word, ie. skunk, and bunch (those darn blends) I just help her try and sound it out and move on. ... Different O-G programs work on similar priciples, but they may take the order differently. We covered blends with Barton 3. My ds had 2 and 3 letter blends down before we got to adding 'ed' or 'ing' to change word forms. But, yes, those darn blend! They're very hard for some kids--especially those fast sounds! Remember that /d/ and /t/ sounds come out very fast, so even if you don't re-do LiPS entirely, you might pull out information (and perhaps just the cards) from LiPS just to re-fresh her memory about those sounds. Remember that when -ed makes the /d/ or /t/ sound, its like a blend at the end. (ie spelled=spelt) When it's not acting like a blend and says "ed" then she's having to deal with multi-syllable words. Those are huge steps for a dyslexic-prone child! Take the steps one at a time. Even if LiPS wasn't a great success for her or fond memory for her, pull out the information she learned and ask her to apply it to the materials she's covering now. Just work with it as the sound struggles come up, not doing the whole program but picking out what she needs to get through the O-G materials you are covering. That's how I used LiPS once we moved onto Barton, just refering back to it and refreshing his mind so to help him detect whatever sounds we were working with at the time. For the /k/ sound, my ds had a very hard time with detecting that sound--especially when in the second position like in "sky". When we were working one day, he just wasn't hearing it, so I finally literally resorted to having him stick his finger in his mouth to feel his tongue lift to the back. That was the specific moment I remember when he face lit up and it was like I was watching the missing brain connection finally form. "It's a K!! It's a K!!" he excitedly screamed. Honestly, it sounds like you are already working with appropriate programs, but she might need pieces from both in order to help her pull it together. If she got through the LiPS cards and knows what her lips, tongue and vocals are doing for those sounds, you can draw on that knowledge to get her through "those darn blends". :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merry gardens Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 back, backed, beg, begged I just want to highlight that those words contain fast blends backed ends with /ct/ <--blend with two fast sounds at the end /k/ and /t/ begged ends with /gd/ <---two fast sounds blended together, (plus the 'e' says 'ay' in most American accents!) /gd/ and /kt/ are very similar, but the /gd/ is vocalized and /ct/ isn't. Both sounds in those blends are fast and they're not easily detected just with lip reading. She'll need to feel what's happening to her tongue to help her detect them. Since she's working with a speech therapist, you might ask the therapist to provide her with extra help here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 I agree. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaughingCat Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 With Lips, she never hardly got past the picture stage where she had to learn the names of the lips ie. tongue tapper, skinny air, etc. I just wanted to say - we started doing Lips recently in hopes it would help DD9's articulation issues. Since Lips has some good reviews for apraxia and other speech issues, I eventually decided it couldn't hurt, might help & might even help her reading too (double win). But I knew learning all the names would be an issue so I just let that part go. My thought was the names are just meant as an "easier" way to remind the child to pay attention to lips/tongue/air of each sound - but at our house that wouldn't be "easier" at all - so we just focus on the pictures to remind instead. Now I didn't ignore the names altogether. We went over all the sounds/pictures/names and went over putting the letters/sounds with correct mouth picture multiple times until DD could do it without mistake. To do this I made several copies of the pages with the mouth pictures, cut them out, glued magnets to the back and stuck them on a small magnetic white board. And now I have her breaking apart words (as in the later part of Lips) but we still use the mouth pictures instead of colored squares - and if she says the name great, but if not no biggie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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