Speaking of brats...

[Reya]

My children are...difficult.

 

They are incredibly aware of how others perceive them, especially adults, and are very, very skilled manipulators, in both good and bad ways. They have charisma. LOTS of charisma. They OOZE charisma.

 

My son, for example, was always the second or third worst kid in the class in preschool activities. ALWAYS. In a carefully calculated manner, so that the other kids would be the ones to get in trouble, not him. He managed to convince a Kindergarten teacher that he couldn't write his name AFTER he'd been writing it in class for several months--it wasn't until I pointed out that he'd done this fine for her before that she realized she'd been snowed--along with a ton of similar things. We'd be given gifts from strangers for him all the time, just because he was so adorable. He would systematically work a crown in a restaurant by the age of 14 months, focusing on groups of people in turn to get them to fawn over him. At the age of three, he managed to convince a friend of mine that he was nonverbal despite the fact that I told her he was faking, and he kept up the charade for six months while playing with her kid and talking to him freely any time they were in another room--until one day I wasn't there, and he wanted something and had to actually talk to get it. Then he acted like he'd been talking in front of her fine all along.

 

He's actually very well behaved ALMOST all of the time now, which is the best that can be hoped for in a kid. But man, it was difficult getting there!

 

So my daughter's behaviors are worse in a more direct way, because she has NO problem with being far and away the worst kid in a class. She is perfectly capable of behaving whenever it suits her (I got stuck at a city council meeting with her for 2 hours, and she was PERFECT and silent the whole time--not many kids her age could be), but if she doesn't see the point, she just...doesn't. I have NEVER seen her hit a child, not EVER, because she'd never do it when I was looking. But when she's being watched by other people, yup, she will. It all depends on the personality of her teacher/supervisor. Thankfully, this has never been a problem in church, where she is one of the oldest kids in her class and regards the others as "babies" to be protected or, at worst, bossed. But in activities where she's the youngest or shortest...watch out. The worst part is that all her teachers adore her. Absolutely LOVE her. Think she is the sweetest, most adorable thing in the world. And she is quite small and, yes, adorable and is frankly gorgeous, and she has taught herself every cute mannerism imaginable. I mean, she folds her hands under her chin and tilts her head. She tosses her hair. She actually pouts by sticking out her lower lip in an almost cartoonish way. If it's cute, she does it. More than does it--she studies it. Perfects it.

 

BUT this means that some of her teachers would let her get away with bloody murder. It drives me crazy. I don't care how cute she is! She still has to BEHAVE! She actually KICKED a girl in dance class today. KICKED HER!!!!! Out of sheer pique.

 

And the teacher wasn't going to tell me until I asked how she was (because she wanted an extra treat).

 

WHY???? Her teachers make up excuses for her--"She seemed tired today," or "She wasn't herself." Um, sure, she doesn't kick or hit kids most days, but this isn't something out of the blue. She's just not behaved well in this class dependably, despite the fact that the teacher treats each occurrence as some freak event. And then the teacher gave the kid a sticker at the end of class!

 

Seriously! Don't give my kid a sticker if she's been horrid. She knows it's a reward, and if she gets it after she perfectly well knows how awful she's been, she's half-giddy with glee about getting away with something awful and is twice as bad the next time.

 

It isn't a self-control issue. DD had NO problems controlling herself whenever she feels that it's worth it. It's just that she likes to be exactly as bad as she can get away with right now. And with some teachers, that is really quite terrible! After telling me whatever horrible thing she did (only because I ask...), the teacher will then stumble over herself to say how sweet and wonderful she really is, and how smart and pretty and.... Yeah, I know she's smart. That's why she has your number.

 

So, anyway, punishment was visited upon her little brown head tonight, and she'll have her lip out for several days about not getting away with this, but I wish there were a way that I could get all people to hold her as accountable as they would the average child. Other kids don't get away with this. I've seen other kids start to misbehave in these classes, and the teachers have no problem redirecting and correcting them. It's just DD. She gets a free pass. It's like rather than me having a "special snowflake" complex, about half the adults she meets do. Being charming is a wonderful skill, but boy, it makes the whole socializing-into-a-decent-human-being thing really, really hard with my kids.

 

*headdesk*

[TXBeth]

:grouphug: Sorry you were cursed with such adorable kids! :D. (seriously though, I understand the frustration because my oldest DD can be this way.

[Chris in VA]

Speaking as a former preschool teacher, I will offer that I would always put the best spin possible on a kid's behavior when addressing the parent.

When I would say, "She seems tired, and not herself," what I might mean is that her behavior was not acceptable, but I am talking to the parent, so I want to be both courteous and give the parent an "out." I would never come right out and say everything a kid was doing wrong. It isn't that I wouldn't be holding the child accountable, it would be that, Number 1, I recognize that inconsistency is developmentally appropriate for young children, and Number 2, most parents are defensive about their kids' PERSON, if not their behavior, so I would never use words that described a kid as bratty or whatever. You have to read between the lines a bit.

 

Does that help at all?

[Kathryn]

I'm sorry :(

I have the opposite problem. My DS has no clue how to "work" it and usually has no clue that what he's done is wrong, but consistently is looked at as THAT kid.

[SKL]

I don't have that particular problem (the charisma overload), but my kids have definitely misbehaved in classes and "gotten away with it." My eldest in particular (6, but little enough to pass for 4) will cut in line and do other inconsiderate things, and she doesn't do exactly what she's asked unless shes' in the mood for it. I asked the teacher about this a couple weeks ago. "Do I need to talk to my daughter?" (I could see but not hear what was going on, so I wanted to be sure I was getting the whole story before disciplining.) He said that it's pretty normal for their age as he's observed over x-teen years. He assured me that if things ever got unexpectedly bad, I'd be the first to hear about it. (I did see him kick a kid out once.)

 

My dds only rarely got a serious call-out on their behavior in preschool classes, but when it happened, it made a real impression. Not getting that end-of-class sticker may not sound like a big deal, but for a little kid, it is. So I'm sure they reserve that "punishment" for the really bad days.

 

Does the teacher know how old your dd is? If she's little, she may be getting a pass because adults assume she is younger and therefore give her more grace. Maybe if you ask the teacher specifically to support you on behavior mod for your dd, she'll at least not reward the worst of her behaviors.

[BrookValley.]

Speaking as a former preschool teacher, I will offer that I would always put the best spin possible on a kid's behavior when addressing the parent.

When I would say, "She seems tired, and not herself," what I might mean is that her behavior was not acceptable, but I am talking to the parent, so I want to be both courteous and give the parent an "out." I would never come right out and say everything a kid was doing wrong. It isn't that I wouldn't be holding the child accountable, it would be that, Number 1, I recognize that inconsistency is developmentally appropriate for young children, and Number 2, most parents are defensive about their kids' PERSON, if not their behavior, so I would never use words that described a kid as bratty or whatever. You have to read between the lines a bit.

 

Does that help at all?

 

 

This. (I also taught preschool...back in the dark ages.) It usually pays to be diplomatic when you're the teacher in this situation (after all, nothing good ever came from insinuating a child is a brat, anyway. You may be happy to have an honest interpretation of your child's behavior, but most parents are going to get pretty defensive, even if they know it's true). Is it possible that adults *do* see through your daughter's behavior most of the time and are holding her accountable most of the time (just perhaps when you are not around to witness it)? I know for sure, in my preschool classrooms, that this kind of behavior wouldn't fly--but I would address it tactfully with the parent.

[Reya]

Speaking as a former preschool teacher, I will offer that I would always put the best spin possible on a kid's behavior when addressing the parent.

When I would say, "She seems tired, and not herself," what I might mean is that her behavior was not acceptable, but I am talking to the parent, so I want to be both courteous and give the parent an "out." I would never come right out and say everything a kid was doing wrong. It isn't that I wouldn't be holding the child accountable, it would be that, Number 1, I recognize that inconsistency is developmentally appropriate for young children, and Number 2, most parents are defensive about their kids' PERSON, if not their behavior, so I would never use words that described a kid as bratty or whatever. You have to read between the lines a bit.

 

Does that help at all?

 

 

I'd believe that was it....except that I have to actually pin down this teacher and one other to get them to EVER tell me that she's been a pill. I don't expect her to say, "She's been a real brat!" but I do expect, "DD was having listening problems in class today," or "DD had a hard time keeping her hands to herself" or "waiting her turn" or whatever. I shouldn't have to force these things out of her.

 

I thought the teacher would have a heart attack when I calmly ripped up her sticker one day after she'd gotten it after throwing such a screaming fit that I could hear it in the hall! That particular teacher tells me all the time how sweet she is and how I shouldn't be "hard" on her. I'm not "hard" on her. She digs her own hole when she's being awful. No one makes her do it but her.

[Reya]

My dds only rarely got a serious call-out on their behavior in preschool classes, but when it happened, it made a real impression. Not getting that end-of-class sticker may not sound like a big deal, but for a little kid, it is. So I'm sure they reserve that "punishment" for the really bad days.

 

Does the teacher know how old your dd is? If she's little, she may be getting a pass because adults assume she is younger and therefore give her more grace. Maybe if you ask the teacher specifically to support you on behavior mod for your dd, she'll at least not reward the worst of her behaviors.

 

My daughter actually GLOATS when she's been bad and gets a sticker anyway. GLOATS. And they give stickers at the end no matter what, unfortunately, but she sees it as a reward.

 

The teacher does know. I'm going to have to remind her again that she has to be good the WHOLE TIME to get a sticker. It totally isn't a maturity thing with her--it's a decision that she's making. If she was actually struggling with controlling herself, I'd give her way more grace. (I used to teach preschool, and I could tell when kids just couldn't quite have a handle on themselves, and I supported them rather than set standards too high.) She's just taking every inch of rope they give her and RUNNING with it.

[Reya]

Is it possible that adults *do* see through your daughter's behavior most of the time and are holding her accountable most of the time (just perhaps when you are not around to witness it)? I know for sure, in my preschool classrooms, that this kind of behavior wouldn't fly--but I would address it tactfully with the parent.

 

I don't think that's what's happening. I really don't. When she acts out, most adults try to jolly her along or charm her, and it totally doesn't work with DD. She sees it as an open door for negotiation, at best, and as a sign of weakness to be exploited, at worst. It starts the game of, "How much of my teacher's time and attention can I continue to hog by acting out?" And then they try harder, and it goes downhill from there.

 

I have only had one teacher who would actually TELL ME voluntarily when DD was bad. The others, I have to ask, even if I've been sitting where I can see her acting out horribly the entire time. They give her extra consideration that other kids don't get, too, so that when she occasionally doesn't get it, she's outraged. She had a HUGE sense of entitlement, but it's other adults who have created it in her, not me.

 

I honestly think most of her teachers think I'm just mean as a mommy! I adore DD. I really do. But that's why her acting like a prima donna everywhere is not okay.

 

At least I know her future piano teacher won't take any guff.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Don't you have a responsibility to remove her from all these opportunities to manipulate until she can control herself, unless you are able to be there and deal with her misbehavior in the moment? Otherwise, aren't you just raising a sociopath?

[Guest inoubliable]

If she's consistently awful at dance class, why is she still going?

[Reya]

Don't you have a responsibility to remove her from all these opportunities to manipulate until she can control herself, unless you are able to be there and deal with her misbehavior in the moment? Otherwise, aren't you just raising a sociopath?

 

 

Yes, my kids have sociopathic urges. It takes my friends aback how sweet yet utterly conniving they can be. THREE have brought it up independently with me--all pretty much saying something like, "Wow, you know, your kids could cure cancer or make some great discovery that banishes poverty, but they could also be serial killers or Bernie Madoff, if someone else were raising them." And they mean it, and they're right.

 

I half-joke that there's a continuum--serial killer, con man, dishonest used car salesman, Bernie Madoff, politician, aggressive CEO, great philanthropist. My kids, by nature, could land at any one of those. By nurture, my son's been nudged into the high-Madoff, low-politician range now, and I'm trying to get him over more toward CEO. My daughter's at con man right now.

 

Anyhow, I tried the removal technique with BOTH kids at various times, and it didn't work. They froze in the same state toward outsiders--if anything, they got worse. Slowly getting other adults on board is really the ONLY thing that works, but it's frustrating that they make it twice as hard. The sociopathic urges are ALREADY there, but they don't actually get any stronger than they start out. The goal is to weaken them systematically. The only way to do that is to get her teachers to pull with me. Otherwise, she doesn't really regress, but she stands still.

 

But that's only the "easy" part. Most children are shaped fairly easily by the rules around them, which they then internalize. Mine, for various reasons, must internalize the rules first and then decide that treating people like that is bad. Getting people to call them on it addresses some of the outer conformational behavior, but it actually does very little for the inner motivation. The inner motivation is something we work on intensely for years. I really do believe that sociopaths are both born AND made, and they can be unmade, too. Just takes a great deal of patience. :)

 

Oh, and I could tell you all this, and you could be absolutely horrified by it, but then you would meet my daughter and have an 85% chance of being overwhelmed by her charm within a few minutes. Unless you observed her VERY closely and clinically, you'd conclude that I must, indeed, just be a "mean mom" who doesn't give her child enough allowances for mistakes.

[Reya]

If she's consistently awful at dance class, why is she still going?

 

 

She's inconsistently awful. And removing her doesn't help because she doesn't care. She'd be perfectly happy staying at home. The problem is that her behaviors will become more ingrained if they aren't stopped at this age--and they become ingrained when she isn't actively CORRECTED, which means that they get worse when she's not in structured situations when she's supposed to behave. By the time she's 6 or 8, it'll be too late. She's not going to school, so she doesn't get other forms of adult authority other than dance, AWANAs, church, swimming, and gymnastics. So that's what I have to work with.

 

She's doing great in AWANAs now 95% of the time, great at church all except one day ever, when she screamed at a child for taking a toy (not really sure if the child actually TOOK it from her or took a toy she was thinking about taking herself), good in swimming all except one single day (but most kids have a swimming meltdown day), good in one dance class 80% of the time....but in gymnastics and the other dance class only 60-70%. Which is WAY up from 30% of the time last year, because of the cooperation of the teachers, but it's just frustrating getting them to see that the REASON that she's improved is because they DID hold her accountable, and they shouldn't stop because she's made the progress but should keep on doing the things that got the progress in the first place.

 

If I absolutely couldn't get the teachers to work with me, I'd pull her. Right now, I'm just whining because they'll do it but I have to push them, and I hate pushing them and being the big bad meanie. We're making progress, but it's painfully slow.

[KnitWit]

Well, even if you believe they can be "unmade", then you need to "tomato stake" them until you have done so. For their benefit as well as others'.

[meggie]

 

Yes, my kids have sociopathic urges. It takes my friends aback how sweet yet utterly conniving they can be. THREE have brought it up independently with me--all pretty much saying something like, "Wow, you know, your kids could cure cancer or make some great discovery that banishes poverty, but they could also be serial killers or Bernie Madoff, if someone else were raising them." And they mean it, and they're right.

 

I half-joke that there's a continuum--serial killer, con man, dishonest used car salesman, Bernie Madoff, politician, aggressive CEO, great philanthropist. My kids, by nature, could land at any one of those. By nurture, my son's been nudged into the high-Madoff, low-politician range now, and I'm trying to get him over more toward CEO. My daughter's at con man right now.

 

Anyhow, I tried the removal technique with BOTH kids at various times, and it didn't work. They froze in the same state toward outsiders--if anything, they got worse. Slowly getting other adults on board is really the ONLY thing that works, but it's frustrating that they make it twice as hard. The sociopathic urges are ALREADY there, but they don't actually get any stronger than they start out. The goal is to weaken them systematically. The only way to do that is to get her teachers to pull with me. Otherwise, she doesn't really regress, but she stands still.

 

But that's only the "easy" part. Most children are shaped fairly easily by the rules around them, which they then internalize. Mine, for various reasons, must internalize the rules first and then decide that treating people like that is bad. Getting people to call them on it addresses some of the outer conformational behavior, but it actually does very little for the inner motivation. The inner motivation is something we work on intensely for years. I really do believe that sociopaths are both born AND made, and they can be unmade, too. Just takes a great deal of patience. :)

 

Oh, and I could tell you all this, and you could be absolutely horrified by it, but then you would meet my daughter and have an 85% chance of being overwhelmed by her charm within a few minutes. Unless you observed her VERY closely and clinically, you'd conclude that I must, indeed, just be a "mean mom" who doesn't give her child enough allowances for mistakes.

 

 

If you think they have sociopathic tendencies, you should be getting them professional help.

[Reya]

I'm sorry :(

I have the opposite problem. My DS has no clue how to "work" it and usually has no clue that what he's done is wrong, but consistently is looked at as THAT kid.

 

 

My next-door neighbor's kid is like that. He had to be taught all the social clues that most kids just pick up. He just rubs people the wrong way, accidentally, but is getting much, much, MUCH better now, with tons of training.

 

I wish adults would analyze their reactions a bit more closely. Why do they see a kid as THAT kid? What's he really done? And why do they think this other kid can do no wrong?

 

Thank G-D my children aren't bullies. I honestly don't know what I'd do, because I've seen teacher's favorites who are bullies get away with all kinds of things. Especially if they are targeting THAT kid. :/ Fortunately, even at their worst, they don't seem inclined that way.

 

Growing up, I was the child who couldn't care less what anyone thought of me. That upset a few people, children and adults, and made them dislike me. Others, it just puzzled. I wasn't at all manipulative--I would not have stooped so low in my childish dignity!--so my own kids are definitely outside my personal experience! But like them, I wasn't motivated by shame or envy or peer pressure or rewards or any of those sorts of things most kids were. I had a deep sense of intellectual justice, though, but I had an enormous indifference to most of the things that drove those around me! I try to instill the same in my kids. It works..........slowly.........

[curlylocks]

Well, even if you believe they can be "unmade", then you need to "tomato stake" them until you have done so. For their benefit as well as others'.

 

:iagree:

 

If you think they have sociopathic tendencies, you should be getting them professional help.

 

:iagree:

[Guest inoubliable]

 

If you think they have sociopathic tendencies, you should be getting them professional help.

 

Seriously.

 

"Yes, my kids have sociopathic urges. It takes my friends aback how sweet yet utterly conniving they can be. THREE have brought it up independently with me--all pretty much saying something like, "Wow, you know, your kids could cure cancer or make some great discovery that banishes poverty, but they could also be serial killers or Bernie Madoff, if someone else were raising them." And they mean it, and they're right."

 

I'd be seriously concerned with this!

 

Sounds like you've got yourself convinced that you can handle this on your own. Could I gently suggest that you may have been manipulated into this thought? If your children really are as manipulative and charismatic as you've put forth, with sociopathic urges (eek!), I'd be extra careful of how "sure" you are of anything at this point. I'd definitely not be putting them in environments where they could be "practicing their skills"...

[Χά�ων]

I am happy to hear your children are not bullies :) That does say something about you as a parent doing a great job. As a mom of a child who is bullied by charismatic children and attempted to deal with parents and coaches who were in complete denile that the little darling could ever do anything that I witnessed, I just want to say thank you for parenting your children and being aware and on top of them. I wish more parents were like you.

 

 

 

 

 

*I am in no way saying that my DS is perfect. He is the type who does not tell. As a result I have to keep a very close eye on him in social situations to prevent him from being manipulated or bullied (and by bullied I mean on the recieving end of actions that would be considered assault if they were adults). The kids rarely know I am watching and listening but I always am.

[Impish]

Wow.

 

Most ppl would be seriously scared, worried, even terrified if they believed their kids exhibited sociopathic tendacies, not joking online about it. :blink:

[Mrs Mungo]

Don't you have a responsibility to remove her from all these opportunities to manipulate until she can control herself, unless you are able to be there and deal with her misbehavior in the moment? Otherwise, aren't you just raising a sociopath?

If she's consistently awful at dance class, why is she still going?

If you think they have sociopathic tendencies, you should be getting them professional help.

 

I agree. I would take them out of such activities where there behaviors were being rewarded and deal with them myself. I would get help from a professional to do so.

[Guest inoubliable]

Wow.

 

Most ppl would be seriously scared, worried, even terrified if they believed their kids exhibited sociopathic tendacies, not joking online about it. :blink:

 

Unless they were snowed, too.

 

I'm glad she has friends IRL noticing and friends here urging her to take this more seriously than thinking it's a cutesy-yet-irritating issue of precociousness. IMO, the OP needs to seek professional help with this.

[sparrow]

Thank G-D my children aren't bullies.

 

Your kid is a bully.

 

She actually KICKED a girl in dance class today. KICKED HER!!!!! Out of sheer pique.

[Amy in NH]

Well at least you are on to her! I once had to change my kids' art classes to a different (less convenient for me) session because a little brat in the class would pick on/kick/hit/call names at my 2nd ds until he finally snapped and fought back. Of course, my son was always the one to get in trouble. The few times I brought it up with the teacher, she gave excuses for the brat. The mother thought he was a little angel. Ugh.

[Paige]

Does the teacher know how old your dd is? If she's little, she may be getting a pass because adults assume she is younger and therefore give her more grace. Maybe if you ask the teacher specifically to support you on behavior mod for your dd, she'll at least not reward the worst of her behaviors.

 

:iagree: My youngest DD (5) is kind of like yours. She is usually a rule follower and not a bully, but she always gets special passes from everyone and has an incredible amount of charisma and she milks it. I do think a lot of it is that she is so much smaller than most kids her age. Even when I tell people how old she is and they know because the whole class is about the same age, it doesn't change what their brains see. People in her preschool who spoke with me to sign her up, introduced me to the teacher, and saw us every day would still stop her in the hall and try to take her to the younger kids' room as if she was lost and confused. It blew my mind that it happened for months. Emotionally, people are thinking baby. I see it in the reverse with my friends who've had larger than average children. People treat them older and expect more because they don't think baby and even when you know the age it is hard to really see the child as the correct age.

 

I think it is unfair to really say that the 4yr old has sociopathic tendencies. She's 4. Is she torturing kittens and setting fires? I don't think so. Everything I read sounds pretty typical for her age. I think the issue is that her typical behavior is not being corrected equally by others outside of the family, so it is more of a challenge to correct it at home. FWIW, I think consistency at home will probably be enough. I would supervise her extracurricular classes if possible and give consequences whether or not the teacher does. Maybe one of those consequences would be not going to class anymore. I'd really work on praising people with good hearts who are kind, honest, and generous. Look for kids in the news who do things, talk about people who may look different but are so beautiful because of their hearts, praise modesty, take the kids out to help others (Meals on Wheels can be good), make casual comments about good character traits in books, and maybe really focus on one character trait at a time at home.

 

As for people bringing it up to you. I don't necessarily see it as a red flag. She's 4 people. I have no comment on the older child as I do think 9yr olds can be on the road to being sociopaths. With my DD, she looks so angelic, and usually behaves so well, that people are stunned when she throws a rip roaring age appropriate fit. It is a little cognitive dissonance for them, I think. My MIL witnessed a fit last year and I thought she'd been traumatized. Really, DD's tantrums weren't unusually intense, but it broke MILs heart because DD had never been upset with her before and I think she truly thought she was always a sweet baby angel. I think your friends may be shocked at her behavior because it was so unexpected for them and had she been a little boy they wouldn't have been so surprised.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

As for people bringing it up to you. I don't necessarily see it as a red flag. She's 4 people. I have no comment on the older child as I do think 9yr olds can be on the road to being sociopaths. With my DD, she looks so angelic, and usually behaves so well, that people are stunned when she throws a rip roaring age appropriate fit. It is a little cognitive dissonance for them, I think. My MIL witnessed a fit last year and I thought she'd been traumatized. Really, DD's tantrums weren't unusually intense, but it broke MILs heart because DD had never been upset with her before and I think she truly thought she was always a sweet baby angel. I think your friends may be shocked at her behavior because it was so unexpected for them and had she been a little boy they wouldn't have been so surprised.

 

OP didn't mention temper tantrum. She mentioned manipulations, physical violence, screaming at other children. Not temper tantrums. She mentioned a 4 year old who doesn't care if she's taken out of her dance class, GLOATS (her words) at getting her way, can flip on the charm whenever the means leads to an end of her desire, and has "perfected" tactics designed to get what she wants. OP was the one who mentioned sociopathy and, quite frankly, came across as bragging about it. OP's friends IRL were the ones who brought up sociopathy and their concern that her child could turn on the charm and yet be a future serial killer.

 

This doesn't seem to be normal 4 year old behavior. This isn't the behavior in ANY 4 year old I've ever known, even the ones who were brats. No one said anything about torching small woodland creatures.

 

If the OP's daughter truly is this disturbed (yes, disturbed), then she needs professional help in dealing with it. If this was supposed to be a JAWM post, then she should have said so. And if she's exaggerating her child's behavioral issues for whatever reason, then that's an entirely different disturbing thought.

 

FWIW, http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

I maintain that, going on *just* what the OP has said and what she's related her IRL friends have said, that I would be extremely concerned. I wouldn't be joking about how my DD was going to end up as a CEO or politician.

[renmew]

Just an idea, as I'm not an expert at all, but I did kind of do this to my youngest just before she started school for the first time.

 

Give her an ugly haircut, really.

 

My youngest has long, golden hair with perfect ringlet curls. It is absolutely gorgeous and is ALL that people see. Add in blue eyes and an adorable smile and she can pull the same tricks. She was at the same daycare since 5 weeks old and did get away with more than I wanted. So, right before she was to begin a new school, I cut off her curls. She still has beautiful hair, and sometimes people mention it, but it is not every. single. day. every. where. we. go.

[justLisa]

Just an idea, as I'm not an expert at all, but I did kind of do this to my youngest just before she started school for the first time.

 

Give her an ugly haircut, really.

 

My youngest has long, golden hair with perfect ringlet curls. It is absolutely gorgeous and is ALL that people see. Add in blue eyes and an adorable smile and she can pull the same tricks. She was at the same daycare since 5 weeks old and did get away with more than I wanted. So, right before she was to begin a new school, I cut off her curls. She still has beautiful hair, and sometimes people mention it, but it is not every. single. day. every. where. we. go.

 

Aside from the first post in this thread, that is the most disturbing t hing I"ve read in a while.

 

5 weeks old and she was already trouble? Yikes.

[2squared]

No one here can really know what's going on with this situation, but I would be shocked if the other adults don't see the issues. My guess is that, for whatever reason, they think the parents are ineffective at disciplining/correcting/training the children, so they just don't bother to "go there.". I know some kids that portray themselves as angels, and everyone smiles at them and their parents, but then we all shake our heads and think the same thing. We all think that the parents aren't effective and maybe even cause the behavior issues. I see a lot of ineffective parenting. The parents think they are effective, but it is obvious to everyone else. KWIM?

 

If the OP has two children that seem just alike with the same disturbing behaviors, don't you have to wonder if parenting is playing a big piece of the puzzle? If these were my children, I would truly be looking for some outside, independent, honest perspectives on the situation. The kids wouldn't go anywhere without me. I wouldn't visit these behaviors on other people, and yes, your children are bullies if they act this way.

[Guest inoubliable]

Just an idea, as I'm not an expert at all, but I did kind of do this to my youngest just before she started school for the first time.

 

Give her an ugly haircut, really.

 

My youngest has long, golden hair with perfect ringlet curls. It is absolutely gorgeous and is ALL that people see. Add in blue eyes and an adorable smile and she can pull the same tricks. She was at the same daycare since 5 weeks old and did get away with more than I wanted. So, right before she was to begin a new school, I cut off her curls. She still has beautiful hair, and sometimes people mention it, but it is not every. single. day. every. where. we. go.

 

Um. How is that supposed to help?

[jujsky]

Just an idea, as I'm not an expert at all, but I did kind of do this to my youngest just before she started school for the first time.

 

Give her an ugly haircut, really.

 

My youngest has long, golden hair with perfect ringlet curls. It is absolutely gorgeous and is ALL that people see. Add in blue eyes and an adorable smile and she can pull the same tricks. She was at the same daycare since 5 weeks old and did get away with more than I wanted. So, right before she was to begin a new school, I cut off her curls. She still has beautiful hair, and sometimes people mention it, but it is not every. single. day. every. where. we. go.

 

 

 

I am stunned that you would actually post something like this. My best friend's mom did this to his little sister as punishment for lying or something. The girl was a pre-teen, and was mortified. Everyone thought the mom was emotionally abusive and insane. You know what? She is.

[Impish]

Shave the kid's head, dress her in sackcloth, roll her in a dumpster. That'll take care of it.

 

(Cutting a kid's hair? Really?!)

[Joker]

Just an idea, as I'm not an expert at all, but I did kind of do this to my youngest just before she started school for the first time.

 

Give her an ugly haircut, really.

 

My youngest has long, golden hair with perfect ringlet curls. It is absolutely gorgeous and is ALL that people see. Add in blue eyes and an adorable smile and she can pull the same tricks. She was at the same daycare since 5 weeks old and did get away with more than I wanted. So, right before she was to begin a new school, I cut off her curls. She still has beautiful hair, and sometimes people mention it, but it is not every. single. day. every. where. we. go.

 

 

Wow! So, you purposefully made your dd look, in your words, 'ugly' because the adults in her life let her get away with too much? I find this one of the saddest things I've read here. What will you do as she gets older if the adults continue to let her get away with things? What do you think doing this taught her? Uggh, I gotta let this one go and stay away from this thread.

 

OP, please get some help if you really think your kids are sociopaths (can't believe I just typed that).

[renmew]

Aside from the first post in this thread, that is the most disturbing t hing I"ve read in a while.

 

5 weeks old and she was already trouble? Yikes.

 

 

No, she was there SINCE she was 5 weeks old, until almost 4 1/2 years old.

[Guest inoubliable]

Shave the kid's head, dress her in sackcloth, roll her in a dumpster. That'll take care of it.

 

(Cutting a kid's hair? Really?!)

 

 

LOL

[Paige]

 

OP didn't mention temper tantrum. She mentioned manipulations, physical violence, screaming at other children. Not temper tantrums. She mentioned a 4 year old who doesn't care if she's taken out of her dance class, GLOATS (her words) at getting her way, can flip on the charm whenever the means leads to an end of her desire, and has "perfected" tactics designed to get what she wants.

 

 

I think it is normal for preschoolers to try to manipulate adults and peers. Preschool kids still use their hands instead of their words to solve disputes more than they should. Kids scream when they are mad. She says she doesn't care if she's taken out of class, but I question whether she means it. What would happen if mom followed through on that threat or if the DD really thought it could happen? If she does mean it, maybe that's a clue that she doesn't like the class and should be pulled. At the least, quit spending money on something she doesn't care about. My kid tells me she doesn't care when she does because she's trying to win an argument. I see lots of kids who turn on the charm, even very young ones can learn to do it when it is rewarded. I don't know...it still does not sound outside the norm to me. Sure, the kid may have a problem, be a little Nelly Olson, and have bad behavior that needs to be addressed, but sociopath is a really harsh label for a preschooler. Labeling a child as a sociopath and having a very young child see a therapist or psychiatrist can create problems of its own.

[renmew]

You guys really think cutting her hair was so bad? I didn't pose it as a punishment. It was her first haircut, and as it was down to her bottom when dry and curled, so veeeeery long, I figured it was time anyways.

 

I wanted people to see her and get to know her, not just shower her constantly with praises, deserved or not, about her hair. I want my daughter to think she has worth beyond her hair.

 

Is that really abusive? Really? Trying to encourage other people to look past a physical trait, which they didn't seem able to do.

[Bang!Zoom!]

You guys really think cutting her hair was so bad? I didn't pose it as a punishment. It was her first haircut, and as it was down to her bottom when dry and curled, so veeeeery long, I figured it was time anyways.

 

I wanted people to see her and get to know her, not just shower her constantly with praises, deserved or not, about her hair. I want my daughter to think she has worth beyond her hair.

 

Is that really abusive? Really? Trying to encourage other people to look past a physical trait, which they didn't seem able to do.

 

 

 

I see.

 

Did you get what you wanted?

[Juniper]

You guys really think cutting her hair was so bad? I didn't pose it as a punishment. It was her first haircut, and as it was down to her bottom when dry and curled, so veeeeery long, I figured it was time anyways.

 

I wanted people to see her and get to know her, not just shower her constantly with praises, deserved or not, about her hair. I want my daughter to think she has worth beyond her hair.

 

Is that really abusive? Really? Trying to encourage other people to look past a physical trait, which they didn't seem able to do.

 

 

I can understand your situation to some degree, but you posed it as a possible solution/punishment to a mother who has labeled her children sociopaths. That is where it got icky.

[renmew]

 

 

I see.

 

Did you get what you wanted?

 

 

Absolutely. The hair comments are far and few, and my daughter no longer talks about her own beautiful hair. Now, I do tell my girls they are beautiful every now and then, but it isn't going to be how they define themselves.

[Impish]

I have a problem w/a parent intentionally trying to make a child look ugly, yes.

[Bang!Zoom!]

 

Absolutely. The hair comments are far and few, and my daughter no longer talks about her own beautiful hair. Now, I do tell my girls they are beautiful every now and then, but it isn't going to be how they define themselves.

 

 

How are they going to define themselves do you hope most for?

[renmew]

I can understand your situation to some degree, but you posed it as a possible solution/punishment to a mother who has labeled her children sociopaths. That is where it got icky.

 

 

I was just thinking that if she weren't quite so cute, she would be able to pour on the charm quite so thickly, thus helping the situation a bit. I didn't really believe what she said about the sociopathic stuff seriously. That's not something people should joke about, but it sounded like her friends where being light about it, not actually serious. Because if one of my friends actually said that to me in a serious manner, I would give it serious thought and take action to begin correcting the problem.

[Joker]

You guys really think cutting her hair was so bad? I didn't pose it as a punishment. It was her first haircut, and as it was down to her bottom when dry and curled, so veeeeery long, I figured it was time anyways.

 

I wanted people to see her and get to know her, not just shower her constantly with praises, deserved or not, about her hair. I want my daughter to think she has worth beyond her hair.

 

Is that really abusive? Really? Trying to encourage other people to look past a physical trait, which they didn't seem able to do.

 

 

You used the word ugly, as in you gave her an ugly haircut and that was your advice to the OP. Yes, there is something wrong with that.

 

My oldest get comments constantly about her beautiful red hair, but I am not going to go whack it off to make a point. She likes her hair and, yes, it does make her feel good about herself (one of many things). I don't think there is anything wrong with that as I like my own hair a certain way.

[renmew]

 

How are they going to define themselves do you hope most for?

 

 

Strong character, hard work, and attainment of happiness.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

I think it is normal for preschoolers to try to manipulate adults and peers. Preschool kids still use their hands instead of their words to solve disputes more than they should. Kids scream when they are mad. She says she doesn't care if she's taken out of class, but I question whether she means it. What would happen if mom followed through on that threat or if the DD really thought it could happen? If she does mean it, maybe that's a clue that she doesn't like the class and should be pulled. At the least, quit spending money on something she doesn't care about. My kid tells me she doesn't care when she does because she's trying to win an argument. I see lots of kids who turn on the charm, even very young ones can learn to do it when it is rewarded. I don't know...it still does not sound outside the norm to me. Sure, the kid may have a problem, be a little Nelly Olson, and have bad behavior that needs to be addressed, but sociopath is a really harsh label for a preschooler. Labeling a child as a sociopath and having a very young child see a therapist or psychiatrist can create problems of its own.

 

 

Sounded like the OP had already tried taking her out of class and she truly didn't care.

 

OP labeled her with sociopathic "urges" herself. OP's friends mentioned it. These are people who know the child IRL. Know what I'm saying? No one here is trying to armchair diagnose the kid. If what the OP is describing is accurate, then I have to disagree with you that having the kid see a trained professional would create more problems. I have no idea how anyone could possibly think that.

[Bang!Zoom!]

 

Strong character, hard work, and attainment of happiness.

 

 

Character building can mean so many things to so many people, what does it mean to you? Are there qualities you attach to the idea of hard work? What do you think it takes to rise up to be a adult who attains happiness?

[KnitWit]

Just an idea, as I'm not an expert at all, but I did kind of do this to my youngest just before she started school for the first time.

 

Give her an ugly haircut, really.

 

My youngest has long, golden hair with perfect ringlet curls. It is absolutely gorgeous and is ALL that people see. Add in blue eyes and an adorable smile and she can pull the same tricks. She was at the same daycare since 5 weeks old and did get away with more than I wanted. So, right before she was to begin a new school, I cut off her curls. She still has beautiful hair, and sometimes people mention it, but it is not every. single. day. every. where. we. go.

 

 

Do you mean your youngest, as in your 3yo listed in your signature?

 

I agree with the pp who suggested these issues are a lack of parenting/teaching/guidance by the adults in her life. I am curious as to whether you think your 3yo got the point of this when, in reality, it is the adults in her life that ALLOWED her to get away with stuff. The adults in her life failed her...and she got punished.

[curlylocks]

You guys really think cutting her hair was so bad? I didn't pose it as a punishment. It was her first haircut, and as it was down to her bottom when dry and curled, so veeeeery long, I figured it was time anyways.

 

I wanted people to see her and get to know her, not just shower her constantly with praises, deserved or not, about her hair. I want my daughter to think she has worth beyond her hair.

 

Is that really abusive? Really? Trying to encourage other people to look past a physical trait, which they didn't seem able to do.

 

 

This is one of the most disturbing things I've read in a long time... :crying:

[justLisa]

Hmm very interesting renmew. So were you the "un" pretty one growing up? How did that make you feel? Your daughter was in the same care for 4.5 years, and complemented on her pretty hair often. Did you want her to know what you went through? So you tried to give her an ugly hair cut because she got the attention you wanted as a child? Maybe you should talk about it.

 

And what if she grows up to be a make up artist, or a cosmetologist, or a plastic surgeon? A career that is centered around beauty?

 

I hope you at least donated all of that gorgeous hair. There are people who would love to have hair on their head.