SOCIAL GROUP: Atheists, agnostics, free-thinkers, non-believers

[Guest inoubliable]

 

 

Speaking of Dan Barker has anyone read his books for kids?

 

My oldest has http://www.amazon.com/Maybe-Yes-No-Guide-Skeptics/dp/0879756071/ref=pd_sim_b_9

We have a bunch more in our Amazon cart that will hopefully find their way to our mailbox at the end of the month.

[Joanne]

_{I don't really fit in this thread. I am no longer homeschooling and I have a claimed spirituality.}

 

_{But my favorite contribution on this topic is from an "old" board member who was pagan. She used some religious materials due to their vigor and quality ( I think it was something from Rod and Staff). Everytime the text used "Jesus", she substituted "Gandalf". :hurray:}

[Guest inoubliable]

_{I don't really fit in this thread. I am no longer homeschooling and I have a claimed spirituality.}

 

_{But my favorite contribution on this topic is from an "old" board member who was pagan. She used some religious materials due to their vigor and quality ( I think it was something from Rod and Staff). Everytime the text used "Jesus", she substituted "Gandalf". :hurray:}

 

 

I hope you pop in from time to time, Joanne. I've always found wisdom in your posts. :)

 

LOL @ the substitution!

[Guest inoubliable]

Here's that link to the secular resources directory.

 

http://www.secularho...ool-curriculum/

 

 

Thank you!

[Free]

Anyone see this article yet?

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-910282

 

"CNN PRODUCER NOTE TXBlue08, a mother of two teenagers in Texas, blogs aboutraising her children without religion. She said she shared this essay on CNN iReport because 'I just felt there is not a voice out there for women/moms like me. I think people misunderstand or are fearful of people who don’t believe in God.' What are your thoughts on this iReport? Share your written response via our Sound Off assignment."

 

 

I actually dislike all her reasons for raising children without God. There should be only one reason IMO, and that is "There is no God". I can see why her article may be seen as deliberately inflammatory.

[Laura Corin]

I actually dislike all her reasons for raising children without God. There should be only one reason IMO, and that is "There is no God". I can see why her article may be seen as deliberately inflammatory.

 

 

I wasn't very keen on the article either. I would turn the question around: why raise children with a god? People who rely on a god as the source of morality often really don't know how to raise moral beings without one. It's worth explaining that explicitly to those who have grown up in a god-only environment, rather than trying to rip down their beliefs.

 

This is actually my objection to Dawkins. Despite agreeing with much of what he says, I think his tone towards believers is arrogant and belittling. I had to stop reading The God Delusion because his understanding of faith seemed unsophisticated (which is unfortunate in such an intelligent man) and his attitude snide.

 

Laura

[Guest inoubliable]

I saw the author of the article as trying to break down the one big reason of "because there is no god". It seemed to me that she was newly putting her non-belief into words. Many times, I've found that people who have recently decided to leave behind religion and the notion that there is a god find that they need to defend their non-belief bullet point by bullet point.

[BrookValley.]

 

I am curious about those of you who have used MBtP. I almost went for it this year just to have everything planned out. Like others here, I would love a secular SL. Do you think it is rigorous enough? Do you feel the need to supplement it a lot? I'd stay with MUS for math as it works best for my girls.

 

I bought a unit of MBtP for my son this year (kindergarten, so I purchased the first 5-7 level unit to try before I invested in a whole year's worth). He LOVES it. It is a lot of fun and it does get them (or started into the process of) into that higher-level thinking. In that way I would call it rigorous. However, from a traditional, academic standpoint, it doesn't look rigorous at all. Yes, you have to add in math and, in the case of my son's age, phonics/reading. To me, it seems like a social studies unit study with some additional but very light activities (science, ocassional math, reading/writing) added in--not rigorous at all. BUT I also realize that my brain is not hard-wired to see as much value in this type of learning, which is silly on my part (if it's not clear-cut, mastery approcach reading, writing, math, social studies/history, science, etc., I think it's not rigorous....I'm trying to re-train my thinking!).

 

Anyway, I think it could be considered rigorous but yes, you do need to supplement. They state upfront that you have to supplement math. I was using Right Start, which is what they suggest, but I dropped it in favor of Math Mammoth (RS drove me nuts; great program, just not for *me*). I don't think there's any reason not to use what math works for you. I also use OPGTR and other reading/phonics materials, and add in a lot of read-alouds and literature stuff because there just isn't any in the unit I have. It only came with one required book that wasn't a resource/non-fiction, and so far only one activity has used that book. Not enough literature, in my opinion. I know this is the big draw with Sonlight, even for those of us who prefer secular materials.

 

Of course, I only have experience with one of the 5-7 level units. Higher-level units may be different.

[Free]

I saw the author of the article as trying to break down the one big reason of "because there is no god". It seemed to me that she was newly putting her non-belief into words. Many times, I've found that people who have recently decided to leave behind religion and the notion that there is a god find that they need to defend their non-belief bullet point by bullet point.

 

Yes, I agree. The kind of points she raised in her article did give the impression of someone feeling conflicted by belief / religion / God. That said, she seems to rail against a particular concept of God - a concept not all believers share. This was definitely not my concept of God, when I was a theist. In fact it was exactly articles and opinions like these, that I found all over the internet, that stopped me from taking atheism seriously and kept me from exploring atheism for a really long time.

 

The arguments for atheism that appeal to me most, I have found, come from people who moved away from a much broader, more encompassing understanding of God.

[Izzy]

I saw the author of the article as trying to break down the one big reason of "because there is no god". It seemed to me that she was newly putting her non-belief into words. Many times, I've found that people who have recently decided to leave behind religion and the notion that there is a god find that they need to defend their non-belief bullet point by bullet point.

 

I'm someone newly deconverting and I can see myself in her writing. There's a different process when you've been christian your whole life and stop believing in your adult years. The closest thing I can compare it to is breaking free of being brainwashed. You go back and forth between peace, anger, questioning, and all kinds of other emotions. You've been conditioned a certain way and it truly is a process to undo.

 

Anyways, that's my experience and why my thoughts change from time to time. I've spent the past 4 years grappling with my religion but it's only been a couple of months that I've formally called myself agnostic. Maybe other ex Christians can chime in if this is what they experienced?

 

[Izzy]

 

 

Definitely

 

 

I submitted to soon so edited. Dang phone! :D

 

[Guest inoubliable]

I think you're very much on point, Izzy.

[Mom-ninja.]

Well, I have many conversations about gods with my kids. It comes up all the time. It's such an intrigal part of our culture it's hard not to talk about it most days.

[Lady Florida.]

I find it ironic that some atheists (and others) talk about "god" so much.

 

When you live in an area where not only God, but specifically the Christian God is always "in your face", you end up talking about it a lot whether or not you want to. You end up defending your non-belief by talking about belief. I posted that there are no family issues for us, but we still live in a god-centered community.

 

This and this is happening right now in the Orlando area.

 

I would be happy to never bother talking about gods unless I get into a voluntary philosophical discussion with someone. That's not going to happen here on the border of the Bible Belt.

[Mom-ninja.]

When you live in an area where not only God, but specifically the Christian God is always "in your face", you end up talking about it a lot whether or not you want to. You end up defending your non-belief by talking about belief. I posted that there are no family issues for us, but we still live in a god-centered community.

 

This and this is happening right now in the Orlando area.

 

I would be happy to never bother talking about gods unless I get into a voluntary philosophical discussion with someone. That's not going to happen here on the border of the Bible Belt.

 

I'm glad there's a group taking this on. It will be interesting to see where this goes.

[Ipsey]

I'm glad there's a group taking this on. It will be interesting to see where this goes.

 

 

I wish I knew what "Atheist" literature was being offered. I hope it's not too much of this

 

https://ffrf.org/sho...ty-in-the-bible

 

and that it's compelling, rational work rather than histrionics (however factually accurate).

 

The FFRF rep claimed that their goal was to put an end to this type of proselytizing. I definitely support that end.

 

I remember last year, one school was allowing passive Bible distribution, when a Pagan group demanded an equal right to do the same. The school decided not to allow Bible distribution after all.

 

http://www.patheos.c...usion-test.html

 

It worked in that case.

[jenangelcat]

 

I find it ironic that some atheists (and others) talk about "god" so much. What's there to talk about if you don't believe it? LOL Not that I don't GET the need to make sense of it and stuff, but that's a lot of god talk even for someone who does believe!

 

At one point in my life (I was quite young) I did believe there was a god. The author's concept of god did not match mine either.

 

 

It's hard to ignore the elephant in the room. Especially when it's being used to justify stamping on human rights on a daily basis. I talk about religion a lot and I could probably classify myself as an angry atheist. Here's a good blog post about why that's okay.

[Lady Florida.]

I wish I knew what "Atheist" literature was being offered. I hope it's not too much of this https://ffrf.org/sho...ty-in-the-bible and that it's compelling, rational work rather than histrionics (however factually accurate). The FFRF rep claimed that their goal was to put an end to this type of proselytizing. I definitely support that end. I remember last year, one school was allowing passive Bible distribution, when a Pagan group demanded an equal right to do the same. The school decided not to allow Bible distribution after all. http://www.patheos.c...usion-test.html It worked in that case.

 

Unfortunately, that's one of the ones being considered. http://cflfreethought.org/

I don't agree with that, and wish they would stick to things they mention later in the release (myths about atheists, how to start a secular group on campus, etc.).

 

Dianna, the atheist parent mentioned here, was in my homeschool group at one time. (Her kids were split - one in school, two at home). These are the kinds of things I think need to happen everywhere.

 

It's hard to ignore the elephant in the room. Especially when it's being used to justify stamping on human rights on a daily basis. I talk about religion a lot and I could probably classify myself as an angry atheist. Here's a good blog post about why that's okay.

 

I often link people to that post when I'm asked why some atheists are angry.

[HelenNotOfTroy]

As someone who has lived in the south most of my life, I find that religion is a very strange thing here. I can tell some people where I stand and it doesn't change their opinion about me too much, others I know better than to reveal myself to. I am not interested in debating or anything, I prefer to live and let live. I belong to a Christian based homeschool group, it is what there is locally. I don't really have any friends who are local and aren't Christian.

[Audrey]

I wasn't very keen on the article either. I would turn the question around: why raise children with a god? People who rely on a god as the source of morality often really don't know how to raise moral beings without one. It's worth explaining that explicitly to those who have grown up in a god-only environment, rather than trying to rip down their beliefs.

 

This is actually my objection to Dawkins. Despite agreeing with much of what he says, I think his tone towards believers is arrogant and belittling. I had to stop reading The God Delusion because his understanding of faith seemed unsophisticated (which is unfortunate in such an intelligent man) and his attitude snide.

 

Laura

 

I agree. I felt like she was still in the defensive stage. I no longer feel any need to defend what I believe or don't believe, nor need to explain it either. The issue of morality is one that comes up frequently. I turn the question around to ask, "what can you truly understand of morality if you have to rely on others to define it for you?" It is the difference between knowing something is right or wrong and understanding why it is right or wrong.

 

I'm probably not explaining this very well, but I'm quite distracted by a rotten sinus cold today.

[Izzy]

The Christian groups here make you sign a statement of faith. They word in such a way that Catholics and liberal Christians wouldn't be able to get in. We are part of an inclusive HS group which is great but the kids don't like park day because there are over 50 kids there. It's the only inclusive group we have though.

 

As someone who has lived in the south most of my life, I find that religion is a very strange thing here. I can tell some people where I stand and it doesn't change their opinion about me too much, others I know better than to reveal myself to. I am not interested in debating or anything, I prefer to live and let live. I belong to a Christian based homeschool group, it is what there is locally. I don't really have any friends who are local and aren't Christian.

 

[Guest inoubliable]

The Christian groups here make you sign a statement of faith.

 

 

 

???? What is THAT?!

[Izzy]

When you join you have to sign a paper so they know you are a Christian. It includes things like inerrant bible, accepted Jesus as savior, Trinity, etc. Do other Christian groups not do that?

[Guest inoubliable]

When you join you have to sign a paper so they know you are a Christian. It includes things like inerrant bible, accepted Jesus as savior, Trinity, etc. Do other Christian groups not do that?

 

 

I have no idea! That's honestly disturbing. I grew up in the RCC, and I never had to sign anything like that. I could be just not remembering, or I might have refused to sign, but I don't remember anything like it. Of course, we were expected to recite the Nicene Creed on many, many, many, many occasions which creeped me out in big ways, but we didn't have to *sign* anything.

[Izzy]

It is pretty disturbing. I guess they are really worried about getting their kids contaminated. ;)

 

 

 

 

I have no idea! That's honestly disturbing. I grew up in the RCC, and I never had to sign anything like that. I could be just not remembering, or I might have refused to sign, but I don't remember anything like it. Of course, we were expected to recite the Nicene Creed on many, many, many, many occasions which creeped me out in big ways, but we didn't have to *sign* anything.

 

[Guest inoubliable]

Reminds me of something I heard about years ago where some Christian groups were having dads and daughters sign some "contract" about the daughters' "purity". And then afterwards there would be a big party and dance only for the fathers and daughters, and that these girls were getting dressed up in what resembled very much wedding gowns and given "purity rings" by their fathers at a special ceremony.

 

Creeped. me. out.

 

Is that still a thing that's being done? I honestly don't remember if it was even in this country, but I think it might have been something going on in the Bible Belt.

[Izzy]

Eww..I've heard of purity rings but not the father daughter ceremony. That IS creepy!

[FLDebbie]

It seems like around here in the deep south that signing a statement of faith is pretty common for the Christian groups. Luckily there are several secular groups too.

[Lady Florida.]

The Christian groups here make you sign a statement of faith. They word in such a way that Catholics and liberal Christians wouldn't be able to get in. We are part of an inclusive HS group which is great but the kids don't like park day because there are over 50 kids there. It's the only inclusive group we have though.

 

They do that here too. We were still believers when we started homeschooling, but we still didn't fit with the Christian hs groups. I spent about a year thinking my only child would have no friends if I continued homeschooling. I was so happy to have found an inclusive group, even as a Christian. My kid still likes to go to Park Day at age 15, but we've been with many of these people since he was 7. The teens have their own hangout areas where they sit and talk.

[Guest inoubliable]

What happens if you lose your faith after you sign the statement? Is there some sort of consequence? Shunning? Would you even care, since you lost your faith? I honestly don't understand what the point is.

[HelenNotOfTroy]

The Christian groups here make you sign a statement of faith. They word in such a way that Catholics and liberal Christians wouldn't be able to get in. We are part of an inclusive HS group which is great but the kids don't like park day because there are over 50 kids there. It's the only inclusive group we have though.

 

While the group is Christian based, it is explicitly not Christian exclusive. They require the board members to be Christian, I do not know if there is a statement of faith involved, and they open meetings with prayer. I don't have a problem with it, although I know some atheists would. I would prefer a more inclusive or secular group, but I am limited to what is available for now. I have considered trying to organize something, but I am rather shy and find the idea rather intimidating.

[deannajo]

When you join you have to sign a paper so they know you are a Christian. It includes things like inerrant bible, accepted Jesus as savior, Trinity, etc. Do other Christian groups not do that?

 

 

Like I said, we just moved to the pacific NW from the midwest, but I saw this a lot, groups in KS, MO and CO - and some more organized co-ops/schools/classes that looked really cool had this too. Oh, and the very large homeschool sports league required a statement of faith too. We sat all that out. It really chapped my hide.

[Guest inoubliable]

I would prefer a more inclusive or secular group, but I am limited to what is available for now. I have considered trying to organize something, but I am rather shy and find the idea rather intimidating.

 

 

 

We have nothing but religious homeschooling groups here. We've not even tried to join. I know that my kids would be uncomfortable with opening prayers. I'd organize something where I live - maybe in connection with the Secular Student Alliance. (I've actually been trying to pursue this for a while now!) I don't know about how many people would bother joining a secular group, though. Not with so many people feeling that they need to be closeted about their non-belief.

[LaxMom]

The vast majority of homeschool groups here require a statement of faith. We were fortunate to find a co-op just beginning that was inclusive, when we first started homeschooling. It was (ironically) founded by self-described conservative Christians, who also felt uncomfortable with the exclusionary practice, and/or were not able to sign the statements in good conscience.

 

It was a great mix of people for several years, until some exclusionary types in the other direction gained power, and everyone - regardless of belief or lack thereof - went their separate ways.

[jar7709]

 

 

We have nothing but religious homeschooling groups here. We've not even tried to join. I know that my kids would be uncomfortable with opening prayers. I'd organize something where I live - maybe in connection with the Secular Student Alliance. (I've actually been trying to pursue this for a while now!) I don't know about how many people would bother joining a secular group, though. Not with so many people feeling that they need to be closeted about their non-belief.

 

 

You might try to start something secular using meetup.com. The group I am a part of is explicity secular; we welcome all faiths and lack thereof, the biggest rule to getting along is not to disparage anyone else's belief system while in the group, and I can do that. I do live in a more liberal area so the group is pretty popular, we have a lot of families that are liberal Christians and other faiths that are excluded from the other statement-of-faith type groups (of which there are many here, too). The meetup group has really filled a niche, and you don't have to 'out' yourself to become a member. Plus going on some of our activities and on the FB page I've been able to 'feel out' some of the other families and find some very like-minded homeschooling friends who have similar philosophies-- we get ourselves together for informal athiest/agnostic/idunno sympathetic family playdates outside of the bigger group regularly and it is pretty awesome. :)

[Guest inoubliable]

Good idea! There was a Meetup group a few years back for this area, but not specifically for homeschoolers. I may have to look into setting one up. It would just be nice to have a small group of kids/parents to get together with every once in a while.

[mamajag]

I'm on my iPad and having issues editing the huge quote, but I would like to thank BrookValley for her thoughts on MBtP. I think a lot like you, so there is no way I would find it rigorous enough. I am looking for something planned out as I am burned out on the planning aspect of homeschool. We're thinking about k12 for some subjects just to give me a break on the planning.

[LucyStoner]

Like I said, we just moved to the pacific NW from the midwest, but I saw this a lot, groups in KS, MO and CO - and some more organized co-ops/schools/classes that looked really cool had this too. Oh, and the very large homeschool sports league required a statement of faith too. We sat all that out. It really chapped my hide.

 

 

I guess their kids running around a soccer field with kids whose parents don't strictly share their beliefs is just too risky?! That is over the top.

 

I live in the PNW, in the least churched city in the country, and the homeschool co-ops here are mostly run by protestant Christians and membership is contingent on signing a statement of faith which is written in a way that excludes Catholics and those with a progressive concept of the Bible. I think this is because Catholics here are more likely to use the parochial schools and the liberal homeschool families tend to tend to look for less structured groups and co-ops classes. There is a non-sectarian homeschool group but a lot of folks find it hard to get involved. I have actually never been able to locate them on "park day". They don't post a starting time or have a sign so you basically have to wander up to people at the park with older kids during school hours and hope that they are also there for park day. My husband and son found them once but no one spoke to them.

[Jennifer3141]

Another atheist/paganish mom popping in. I have been trying to read and keep up. Just wanted to spread some woo to my people.

[Izzy]

DS 13 is going to play tackle football with a Christian homeschool league but they are open to anyone joining. They don't ask you about your faith but do warn about prayers during practice, games, etc. I'm totally okay with that. I'm just happy we actually found a HS tackle football league because DS loves to play. He was on the 7th grade team at school but HSers can't play. :/ That's a whole separate vent but I think schools should allow HSers to play sports.

 

 

 

Like I said, we just moved to the pacific NW from the midwest, but I saw this a lot, groups in KS, MO and CO - and some more organized co-ops/schools/classes that looked really cool had this too. Oh, and the very large homeschool sports league required a statement of faith too. We sat all that out. It really chapped my hide.

 

[catz]

 

You might try to start something secular using meetup.com. The group I am a part of is explicity secular; we welcome all faiths and lack thereof, the biggest rule to getting along is not to disparage anyone else's belief system while in the group, and I can do that. I do live in a more liberal area so the group is pretty popular, we have a lot of families that are liberal Christians and other faiths that are excluded from the other statement-of-faith type groups (of which there are many here, too). The meetup group has really filled a niche, and you don't have to 'out' yourself to become a member. Plus going on some of our activities and on the FB page I've been able to 'feel out' some of the other families and find some very like-minded homeschooling friends who have similar philosophies-- we get ourselves together for informal athiest/agnostic/idunno sympathetic family playdates outside of the bigger group regularly and it is pretty awesome. :)

 

That sounds great! We have a very nice welcoming homeschool group where we are that are probably mainly more liberal Christians/athiests/agnostics etc. One thing I have come across sometimes in the secular homeschooling world is that crowd can be very diverse and not necessarily welcoming too. Like come people treat unschooling or attachment parenting as a type of religion really and don't want to mix with those who don't think exactly the same way.

[4kidlets4me]

How bizarre. Who wants to hang out with people who are exactly like them all the time. That would be supremely boring.

[Spryte]

:seeya: Waving hello. Yet another non-believer checking in. Going to catch up on reading this thread, but it's nice to see that we're not alone.

[Guest inoubliable]

I have to say that it's great to see so many checking in here - I wasn't sure how much of a response there would be, or how big "our" community was here. My thanks to a newbie for shining a spotlight on the need for such a social group and encouraging its inception, and my thanks to all of you who have participated so far in sharing your experiences, recommendations, and support.

 

Just a reminder that I know a lot of us start planning out our next school year around tax refund time. If any of you have some hits and/or misses with curricula that you'd like to share - please do!

[Izzy]

Just a reminder that I know a lot of us start planning out our next school year around tax refund time. If any of you have some hits and/or misses with curricula that you'd like to share - please do!

 

Can I make a request? Can someone please come out with a secular Sonlight? Exactly like SL but secular? :p I wonder if there is enough demand or if it would be a copyright infringement?

 

I am happy to have this group too. Liberal Christianity was sort of my gateway to not believing at all. I was getting pretty frustrated and thinking I must be all alone in the HS world and this social group popped up. Awesome timing. :D

 

 

[Guest inoubliable]

I may have to somehow hunt down some of this Sonlight stuff. I've never seen any of it, but I keep hearing how fantastic it is except for the religious aspect of it. I wonder if it's possible that a group of us couldn't put together something similar yet secular...

[deannajo]

I may have to somehow hunt down some of this Sonlight stuff. I've never seen any of it, but I keep hearing how fantastic it is except for the religious aspect of it. I wonder if it's possible that a group of us couldn't put together something similar yet secular...

 

 

 

I'm in :thumbup1:

[Guest inoubliable]

Looked over at Sonlight for a bit. Confusing, first off. Their forums were not helpful. I didn't realize you had to pay for full access! Good grief. And I saw at least one person asking about Netflix lists to go along with some "Core" and it got shut down by a mod. LOL. Woo!

 

From what I can tell, though, it looks like a HUGE booklist for each year. A teacher's...script?...to guide through reading. The books are supposed to cover history, science, literature, language arts? The lists themselves look very very similar to Classical House of Learning's lists. (My apologies - I still can't remember which WTMer's site this is! It's a fantastic curriculum, though!). It looks like you have to include your own math program.

 

Any other insights to Sonlight? Now that I've been thinking on it for several hours, I'm thinking this might be a project I could take on (with as much help as any of you would like to contribute!).

[Jennifer3141]

He was on the 7th grade team at school but HSers can't play. :/ That's a whole separate vent but I think schools should allow HSers to play sports.

 

 

 

Or, they could refund our property tax money!!!

I'm angry on your behalf. :laugh:

[deannajo]

Any other insights to Sonlight? Now that I've been thinking on it for several hours, I'm thinking this might be a project I could take on (with as much help as any of you would like to contribute!).

 

I'm far from an expert, as we've only been using the curriculum for one week :laugh: but what I like about it is the schedules and instructor's guide. I've seen amazing book lists, but for where I am right now, I think I just need that handholding that the schedules and instructor's guide offers in SL - my own history education was lacking - a lot of memorizing dates for tests and moving on, so I feel I'm learning right along with the kids, so having some scripted discussion points, and book suggestions, and time line activities, and map activities, and literature that flows through whatever topic we're discussing, along with what seems like a very gentle, Charlotte Masony approach to language arts (although they do recommend adding on spelling and grammar but present it as optional). So our first week is over, and I really liked going to day 1, and doing that - reading what we read, talking about what we talk about, doing whatever activities are asked of us. And then day 2.. And so on. I didn't like pulling out the Christian texts and wondering if we should just pull them or replace them with something else, and if we replace it, what should we replace it with? And should I be going through the entire curriculum and figuring this out ahead of time? There's a secular sonlight yahoo group, but for the Cores I have, and the newer editions, I'm not seeing anything telling me exactly what I should do, so I'm just winging it...right now.

 

tbh, I work from home, the kids are involved in out of the home classes, and two of the kids are very serious dancers, and I just am trying to find something where my homeschooling time is spent with them rather than planning and scheduling and preparing. I've never thought I'd be a boxed curriculum homeschooler, as I prefer to be relaxed, child-led, etc, but nothing was getting done, and the kids were unhappy and feeling behind and feeling stupid :crying: and I was frustrated, so I'm trying it..and this week went really well. We'll see how long it continues.