Steffanyace Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 I had a first grade teacher (in TX) tell me they expect their students to be able to answer addition/subtraction problems in 3 seconds. The kids have to do a 20 problem worksheet in 1 minute. Ds struggles with rote memorization of basic math facts. Conceptually he gets it. He is just slow in memorizing the answers. He do speed drills often, and he is just now getting close to getting it in time. He made it in time once. We did MUS for two years and are now doing 1st grade RightStart Math. RSM has been working well for him. He has made great progress with it. I don't know if there is any more I can do to increase his speed. I kind of feel like it will come along as he matures a little, but I don't know. We have been working on memorizing basic addition for about two years now. What speed are your first grader doing their basic addition or subtraction facts? Quote
Chrysalis Academy Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 When dd10 was in the lower grades in ps, they did "Mad Minutes" in math. She hated them. She never did very well, the timed test made her feel really anxious. She hates timed games like Timez Attack, too. There is just something about the pressure to go fast that really shuts her brain down. She knew her facts solid, she just couldn't show it in this way. I don't know if this is at all reassuring, but I'd say that if he shows you he knows his facts in untimed/low pressure situations, maybe he knows them just fine. My current first grader complains that she never finishes her math during math class (even though other kids do, apparently). But when she brings a page home to finish, she finishes in a minute or two. So it's clearly not that she doesn't know her facts . . . I think it's probably the distraction of the classroom that makes it hard to focus. Anyway, FWIW . . .my girls are excellent at math, but not at doing it quickly. Quote
lea1 Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 We are using CLE Math now (recently switched from Math Mammoth) and we do timed drills and flash cards every day. Before we starting CLE Math, I doubt that my two sons could have done 20 problems in 1 minute. Now, they do it every day with no problem. One son usually has 20 seconds left over, on average. The other usually has 12 or so seconds left over. We had finished MM 1st grade but I knew my sons had struggled with some things and they definitely were not quick on their math facts. So I switched them to CLE Math and we are redoing 1st grade math again, although CLE covers things that MM had not yet covered so they are learning some new things too. It has definitely helped with memorization of the math facts though because we are doing timed drills and flash cards every day and they only take a couple of minutes so it doesn't add much time. Quote
thebacabunch Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 IMO the push for fast math drills has to do with testing. My dd would cry and cry when in ps because of timed math. She gets her math done in a reasonable amount of time and her understanding of mathematics is amazing. She understands concepts quickly and easily. My husband is an engineer and thinks that timed math drills are silly. Quote
NASDAQ Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 For plain math facts? Three seconds. I ask the question, count to three in my head, and then give her the answer. Speed drills in math are not a recent innovation. We were doing them when I was in school. It's the entire premise of Kumon. The idea is to over-learn them. Quote
MomatHWTK Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 I could do the timed tests well in 1st grade, but none of my children would have been able to at the same age. Either I didn't push hard enough or it just isn't in them to go that fast. DH tells me that hated timed math tests in school. That would have been, let's just say more than 30 years ago. I remember in 1st grade the timed tests started and we were given a sheet of problems to finish within the set time limit. Some finished early some didn't get the sheet finished in time. (Pencils down!) My oldest has a processing speed disorder that slows him down. So, sometimes there can be a developmental cause for the lack of speed. Quote
UrbanSue Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 My kids are both very good at math but neither of them could do that . . . I don't think. I might give them a plain math facts drill today and see. We do mental math most days. My dd is only in first grade and I suspect she will be able to go that quickly before long, if not already. Ds I would really like to get to that speed because it is hurting his computation speed with higher-level math. But he has an excellent conceptual understanding of math. He's just very slow. My dh is a math genius and speed drills were the bane of his existence in early elementary. He could do it, eventually, but not in first grade. Quote
Mom22ns Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 My kids did "Mad Minutes" in school too. Ds has processing speed issues and his grade was unaffected by not being able to complete them, but his self esteem was wrecked by it! Dd didn't have any trouble with them as she does everything fast (and sloppy). We continued to drill math facts, addition/subtraction, multiplication/division until they were perfect and FAST (1 sec/problem or less orally). I don't know if it was necessary, but I do think it makes later math easier. I don't think it is necessary to have them that fast in order to keep moving forward. Ds liked flash cards. We timed them and wrote down each time he got a new speed record. He was always excited to break his record, but was paralyzed by a clock counting down. So, we didn't do timed drills, but rather timed our drills if that makes sense. :) Quote
Farrar Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 I would think that while some kids could do the problems that fast, that the writing would slow most first graders down significantly. Also,the dislike and association with stress and basic recall it would create for math in most kids would seem to outweigh the benefits of the fluency to me. Quote
Dmmetler Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 I would think that while some kids could do the problems that fast, that the writing would slow most first graders down significantly. Also,the dislike and association with stress and basic recall it would create for math in most kids would seem to outweigh the benefits of the fluency to me. This was my experience in 3rd grade, where we had to pass the times tables by getting 100% 3x on a written test-problem given orally, write the answer, in mixed order. I got bogged down very fast (on the 3s) because I simply couldn't write that fast. As soon as I got a 2 digit number, she'd be saying the next problem while I was writing the first answer, and I'd miss it. I don't think I ever passed all those tables, and was the last one in the class stuck on "easy" ones. Spelling tests were the same issue, although many of my teachers DID give me the option to do those orally (for some reason, that particular 3rd grade teacher missed entirely that since I had an IEP for fine motor issues and was being pulled out for regular special ed assistance in motor skills that maybe, just maybe, this wasn't a good idea-and my parents didn't realize how much I was struggling on the written tests-they went over the flash cards with me at home, saw I knew it, and assumed everything was fine at school). It took years-and I mean until I was taking graduate school courses in math ed for my teaching license, for me to get over my fear of math and belief that I couldn't do it. I don't stress speed with my DD, and she can be downright slow when she's working on her own. But when she NEEDS speed, like in the American Math Challenge, she has no trouble demonstrating it. Quote
Catherine Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 IMO it is important for higher math that a child achieve a high degree of automaticity in math facts. My youngest, at 11 now, has struggled mightily with this. We have used RS since the middle of first grade and he is just now, in sixth grade, able to do most of the timed drill sheets in all 4 operations quickly. I disagree that it is too stressful, though a parent\teacher has to handle it the right way. DS *hated* these drill sheets more than anything, for many reasons" he couldn't work fast, he couldn't write fast; he is definitely a slow processor. So it's been a very long road to automaticity. Far longer than he would have been allowed in a school setting. Initially, he did them with a table, then without the table, but without being timed. Once his accuracy untimed was very good, I started timing him sometimes, though until this year he asked me to write all or some of the answers. Just use the "pecked to death by ducks" approach of chipping away at the problem. He is very interested in science and IMO his shot at a career in science could easily be derailed by poor math skills, so we just keep at it. We have definitely "moved on" conceptually, and he is probably near grade level in math. I think it's very important to distinguish between lollygagging, in which case the kid can speed up under certain circumstances, and true slowness, in which case, he can't ever, under any circumstance, work fast. The former is less worrisome, and in the end, you can make it their problem, not yours. Slowness just requires more practice-way more than most kids like. We also made the drills more fin by bouncing a rhythm to the answers, rollerbladding in a circle outside as he shouted out the answers, etc. Just make it as fun as you can and keep gradually pushing them to go a bit quicker. It will happen. Quote
FairProspects Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 I can see how fluency is helpful, but I am fabulously speedy and a great memorizer and my math career was dismal. I was frequently the winner of these challenges in elementary school. That skill was basically of no use when I was struggling in Pre-calc. I don't think it is a hill to die on. Quote
Farrar Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 I agree that fluency is important. But one second is a bit much as a basic benchmark, especially with the writing involved for kids at an age when struggling with letter reversals is pretty common. This is one of those things that I feel like you hear about public schools but which I don't know what it looks like in actual practice. Can a group of average 6 yos actually meet this standard? If so, do you have to spend so long on it that it's to the detriment of other math skills? Assuming that a good amount of time is given to this repetitive action, how does it make the kids feel about math? Obviously fluency is important, but do the kids who meet this standard at age 6 go on to achieve better math grades five years later? Are they move likely to make it through calculus in high school? Are there allowances in that which we're not seeing in this standard? For example, are kids doing it by pressing the numbers or are they actually writing? Are many kids exempted from meeting it because of IEP's? Does half the average class just routinely fail the standard and yet it remains the standard? There are a lot of things I've seen that public schools say they do that sound impressive. In some cases, it really is a standard being raised and a positive thing. Other times, it's the result of heavy drill that happens at the expense of deeper conceptual understanding or the output of the majority of students is extremely subpar or is actually done by the parents or is spoon-fed much more by the teacher than the way that the standard is stated implies. If average 6 yos can really be trained to write out a drill sheet spending on one second per problem, then I'm surprised and impressed, but okay, fine. I just made different educational choices and I'm basically fine with them. Quote
SorrelZG Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 For DS it would depend on whether he knew he was on the clock or not. If he's playful, he's speedy. Stressed? His brain freezes and can't think of anything but the passing of time and starts randomly guessing just to get something out. Quote
PeterPan Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 Rather than drawing conclusions from speed on a drill sheet, I'd do some standardized testing and get that compared to a norm. Standardized tests will usually have scores for computation separate from conceptual. That way you can see, as you say, if there's a significant difference. Kids can be slower for a lot of reasons. (still new to them, low processing speed, need more practice, undiagnosed problems, whatever) I would do standardized testing so you have objective evidence compared to norms, rather than just one woman's opinion. And for the record, my dd did have a pretty consistent 20% gap between her computation and conceptual for years and years. We worked on it, but the gap remained. This past year (7th) was the FIRST time those scores have ever come together. We had been doing Teaching Textbooks, which has spiral and contextualized practice. I don't think it's any one thing for these kids or one magic bullet. She had a lot of reasons for it, and now all these years later it has come together and become less of an issue. I let her use a calculator though, because in fact she does have low processing speed. She's NEVER likely to be one with super-fast response on drill sheets. But we watch the standardized test scores, see that her conceptual and computation are pretty much even now, and we don't freak out. So get objective evidence, don't go on opinions. That's my take. Quote
PeterPan Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 I can see how fluency is helpful, but I am fabulously speedy and a great memorizer and my math career was dismal. I was frequently the winner of these challenges in elementary school. That skill was basically of no use when I was struggling in Pre-calc. I don't think it is a hill to die on. :lol: Einstein would probably agree. :) Quote
sleeplessnights Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 What speed are your first grader doing their basic addition or subtraction facts? I believe that kids need to get their facts down cold in order to be able to do their upper-level math at a decent speed. I like CLE's method of memorization. Start with about five easy flashcards and go through them a couple of times. The next day add one or two more and go through them a couple times. If your student is slower to pick them up, they suggest two to three short sessions a day. As your pile gets bigger, take out the ones that are now easy to keep the pile manageable, but be sure to add them in every once in a while to review. This will allow you to get through addition and subtraction in a year. My 3rd grader (four operations) & 1st grader (2 operations) are at about 30/min, and my K'er is at about 20/min for facts up to ten (due to her writing speed). I think one of the keys is to make it a given each day, like brushing your teeth. My daughter likes practicing on her own and then I "quiz" her by pulling a couple out at random. Try to keep it light and fun and not stressful. It takes about 10 minutes max a day, so you're not really cutting into valuable school time. Quote
EducationX2 Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 In general, I dislike timed things for my 1st grader. It is very likely related to my own issues with timed assignments. I worry so much about beating the time that I can't even concentrate on the assignment. So I haven't timed her. But then, yesterday, during math, she was whining and complaining (as usual... she hates math), and I told her that she had 5 minutes to finish the assignment or she wouldn't be getting on the computer when we were done. She FLEW through the assignment. She kept asking me how much time she had left, and actually wanted me to count down how many problems were left and keep reminding her about the time. Then for the next assignment, when she was about halfway through, she wanted to know how much time she had. When I told her I hadn't given her a time limit, she made me set a limit. All this to say, I guess some people enjoy having a timer to beat! Quote
thescrappyhomeschooler Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 The answer to your title question- painstakingly slow! My younger son is speeding things up a little, but I've done flash cards, dice games, timed tests, Xtra Math, etc. to try to get them to speed up the math facts, but it hasn't seemed to make much of a difference for my boys. They are accurate most of the time, but just not quick. Quote
boscopup Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 I didn't do any timed drills in first grade. In 2nd grade, as we were nearing long division (4th grade math), I pulled out some 5 minute drill sheets for certain multiplication tables. My son could do about 50 in 5 minutes. He's writing phobic, so I thought that was pretty good. After a few of them, he was getting about 60 in 5 minutes. Slow compared to what you're talking about, BUT... He is having absolutely zero problems calculating quickly during math (now in Singapore 5B). He can often find the answer to a complex word problem quicker than I can. My facts are still quicker than his, but he will gain speed as he uses them more. He's not slow. Just not super duper quick. I see him getting quicker all the time though, despite not practicing the facts in isolation at all. My middle son does the mental math sheets in Singapore (which are basically fact drill at this stage). I do not time him. He's pretty quick, especially considering he's K and hasn't been writing that long. I don't plan to do timed drills with him anytime soon. He freaks out at timed stuff. In Reading Eggs, he had me drive the mouse, and I had to talk him into doing the timed exercises at all (like the evil treadmill one!). He could *easily* do the material in the time allotted if he were driving, except that he freaks out and freezes. I'll have to work him up to being able to do things in a standardized test situation (where you have a certain amount of time to finish). For now, he's a young 6. I'm not worried about timing him on anything. And he knows his addition and subtraction facts within 10 pretty well and can fairly quickly do mental math like 25-17. Quote
NASDAQ Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 My daughter is a very high-strung child, and we handle getting facts fast this way: I show her the sheet and read it aloud to her, and count to three in my head. She tries to say the answer. If she doesn't get it, I say the answer (not annoyed or anything) and sometimes the 'rule' or set to which that problem involves (e.g. 'doubles'). For other kids, flashcards or games might work best. It doesn't have to be "sit down with this sheet next to this timer and GOGOGO." OTOH I loved timed drills as a kid. Quote
thebacabunch Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 I will just reiterate that my ENGINEER husband thinks that timed tests are silly. There are some real advantages to taking your time while doing math in a stem type career. YOU MAKE FEWER MISTAKES. If a person goes on to college and is interested and confident enough to do a stemy degree they are usually pretty good at math. I would much rather have a kid do math in a reasonable amount of time and, yes, know their math facts while really understanding what they are learning. I have a kid who likes to make up number patterns for fun and loves reading math literature. Most of what she chooses to read is about math or science. She is a math whiz. If I gave her a timed test she would clam up and start to dislike doing math. My other dd has a wonderful understanding of math. She just gets it. She can come up with 3 different ways to answer a math question. She thinks she is stupid when it comes to math because of the timed math drills in first and second grade in ps. I am not a fan. Quote
kiwik Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 I remember being told that in karate you need speed,power and accuracy, BUT; First you work on the accuracy, the speed and power will come in their own time with practice and experience.:-) Quote
Amy in NH Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Long post got erased. Don't have time to rewrite right now. Xtra Math is free and works great. Quote
kdownie Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 My 1st grade dd isn't at 3 seconds or even close. She gets the concept but just hasn't been quick to memorize the facts. I don't worry about it. I'm she will get faster just with repetition during math lessons. Quote
Steffanyace Posted January 10, 2013 Author Posted January 10, 2013 The first two years of math I took the flash card approach. We did just a few at a time, added one a day when ready, and removed the "easy" ones. The facts just never stuck. I thought with constant no-pressure exposure they would eventually sink in. It didn't for ds. I think his improvement so far is the way RSM makes the child see that facts. Ds is ADHD. Writing seems to put him in a brain freeze (although it is much better this year). Because of that I use an app on my iPad. It shows him one problem at a time, times him, keeps track of accuracy, etc. He is ables to do his best with that. We worked one set of numbers at a time working up to sum of 20. We did have him tested. He is average (on the low side) on his math. I had not yet taught him subtraction though which is why it was a little low. The guy said he added all the subtraction problems, but they were all added correctly. With him being in the average range not even knowing subtraction, I haven't worried too much about it. At the same time, I am very surprised he hasn't improved with the amount of effort we have put into it. He always gets the right answers. I would like him to be faster, so he doesn't have that additional struggle as the math starts to build on itself. I'm curious about processing issues. Some of it I chalk up to ADHD but am wondering if there might be something else . . . I'm going to do another post for that. Quote
Cindyz Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 We use ipad apps to increase the speed of recall. He knows the math facts, but now he needs to memorize them for automatic recall. Ipad apps make it fun and no stress. We've started with long division and if he had all of the facts instantly memorized, it would sure go a lot faster. Quote
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