First Day: nothing's changed

[UmMusa]

Yep, after two weeks off, dealing with my 10yr old DD was disappointing and draining. When she gets into the school routine, she gets into a funk and smarts back, gets frustrated with math, and finds many 'other' things to do to the point that her work is not done till 4pm (starting around 9).

 

I try to advise her during WWE4 narrations, but she snips back at me. We end up talking over each other and her huffing and puffing about "I didn't say that".

 

I have complained about her before. I wish there were a solution. We have some good days, but most are just a struggle leaving me bitter and pi$$ed. I realized how much so today after being off from school for two weeks. She and I are fine otherwise, it's just with education. I wonder if using a Calvert ATS type school would work better for her next year. Less of me in her face. I want to work with my 2nd grader and 4yr old who are both happy (most of the time), but dealing with the drama drains me and I have to force a pleasant face which inevitably leads to an explosion at some point later in the day.

 

Any advice?

[Alte Veste Academy]

Yep, after two weeks off, dealing with my 10yr old DD was disappointing and draining. When she gets into the school routine, she gets into a funk and smarts back, gets frustrated with math, and finds many 'other' things to do to the point that her work is not done till 4pm (starting around 9).

 

I try to advise her during WWE4 narrations, but she snips back at me. We end up talking over each other and her huffing and puffing about "I didn't say that".

 

I have complained about her before. I wish there were a solution. We have some good days, but most are just a struggle leaving me bitter and pi$$ed. I realized how much so today after being off from school for two weeks. She and I are fine otherwise, it's just with education. I wonder if using a Calvert ATS type school would work better for her next year. Less of me in her face. I want to work with my 2nd grader and 4yr old who are both happy (most of the time), but dealing with the drama drains me and I have to force a pleasant face which inevitably leads to an explosion at some point later in the day.

 

Any advice?

 

 

Have you considered that perhaps it is not the "school routine" that puts her in a smart-talking funk but just a return to the power-play dynamic you are describing during school hours?

 

I learned (the hard way! :D) that talking over my kids makes me nothing more than their puppet. I walked this path with my oldest and I will tell you what worked. As few words as possible, cheerfully and calmly expressed. I was zen like every Buddhist monk I have ever seen in the movies. :tongue_smilie: I had iced tea, lots of it. And I was right there next to him, engaged with reading, writing, grocery ad/list compiling, tongue-biting... "What, sweetie? You are still on your first page of math? That's OK. I have all the time in the world." Unaffected. I was the very picture of unaffected.

 

When you feel the rise of your anger, that is your daughter pulling your puppet strings. Do not give her that power. If she can't ruffle you, she will eventually give up trying.

[UmMusa]

Hmmmm.

I do think I've tried that, and all her work is improperly done.

At 3pm today I told her she had to stay home to finish while other kids and I went to the library. Came home to find all math was wrong and that she couldn't answer discussion questions on history or science readings.

 

I wish I could back off more. A lot of her work has oral discussion questions. And Dictation... Oh boy!

 

I sat her down before bed in front of her dad and told her she needed to 'be there' as far as what I expect. I was positive, not angry. Just keep on keepin on I guess.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Hmmmm.

I do think I've tried that, and all her work is improperly done.

At 3pm today I told her she had to stay home to finish while other kids and I went to the library. Came home to find all math was wrong and that she couldn't answer discussion questions on history or science readings.

 

I wish I could back off more. A lot of her work has oral discussion questions. And Dictation... Oh boy!

 

I sat her down before bed in front of her dad and told her she needed to 'be there' as far as what I expect. I was positive, not angry. Just keep on keepin on I guess.

 

 

Yes, no. LOL

 

My method's greatest strength is that it does not allow a single error to slip by without notice. I was right there, sippin' tea, chillaxin' next to him, after all. I would just cheerfully and oh so gently point out errors, messy work, the need to read instructions, etc. as he worked. You can't wander off or let the kid out of your sight. It is best to prepare a pitcher of your favorite beverage and maybe a light snack or two before you begin. I had a big enough table to work with my other two (for the small amount of table work they did at the time), then they were free to go off and play.

 

No way would I leave Cranky Kid home alone and expect Conscientious Kid to have magically returned in my absence. I don't think most kids work that way. However, Ignored Whiny Kid eventually lets Conscientious Kid emerge because it gets very frustrating and a little embarrassing (not to mention confusing!) to try to work a puppet with broken strings. ;)

 

At my house, the nightly lectures with Dad, by Dad, etc. were always super sweet and gave us all warm fuzzies. But then the reality of school time hit and the warm fuzzies turned into cold shoulders. :lol:

[SorrelZG]

Kristina, you super-human level of self control makes you my hero. lol

 

I have definitely grown in this but still have plenty of room for more. It makes a difference. Sometimes, when DS has a set-in poor disposition, it takes multiple days of me not being provokable before any change is seen in him. I share that just to encourage long-suffering if being provokable doesn't yield results in one day (or several).

[Um_2_4]

This reminds me of that book "how to talk so kids will listen and how to listen so kids will talk"?? not sure on the title... but lot's of examples there of how to deal with those situations where emotions build on each other.

Oldest DS can be UBER cranky about school work, he doesn't yell or the like, just lot's of complaining... :toetap05:

On my GOOD days (lol), I smile and calmly explain what needs to happen now in as few words as possible and walk away.

I am specific on my praise when something is done right and as I asked.

I also noticed that when it is not me giving directions, its easier for him to follow. Works for chore lists, I'm working towards more independent work for oldest. Although he tends towards anxiety over perfectionism, so when something is new or a bit hard, he needs my help, but doesn't want to admit it... :glare:

Any way you can slightly remove yourself from the equation, while still making sure the work is done and done correctly? Teaching textbooks, etc...some online courses for other topics?

Hugs

[Mandy in TN]

I have just decided that 10yo ds doesn't care at all about anything other than math and music. At this point, I just want it done. I will not be spending my time trying to come up with fun lessons when he is just irritated by it as if I am actually trying to think of ways to make the lesson take longer. I will not leave him alone. I can't imagine that anything would be completed with any sort of accuracy or retention, but I do have other things that I need to do and so does he. We can't sit around all day drinking tea. We simply don't have more than 45min/day on history and 45min/day on science. 1.5 hrs on those two subjects is plenty. We have music lessons 3 days each week and math ouside the home twice. We have a play group each week. I just don't have the luxury of enough time to play Zen.

 

OTOH, I also don't want to feel like I am dragging a boulder through mud every. single. day. I am seriously considering Calvert with ATS without math for next year. It really isn't any more expensive than what I spent on curriculum for this year. I vote that if you can look at a program with a grading service and feel like it would motivate your dd and reduce the stress in your relationship with her then, sure, give it a shot. It is definite contender here. :)

 

HTH-

Mandy

[Alte Veste Academy]

Kristina, you super-human level of self control makes you my hero. lol

I have definitely grown in this but still have plenty of room for more. It makes a difference. Sometimes, when DS has a set-in poor disposition, it takes multiple days of me not being provokable before any change is seen in him. I share that just to encourage long-suffering if being provokable doesn't yield results in one day (or several).

 

:lol: This is not my nature, which was a big part of the problem in the first place. My nature is to gripe and engage back and then ruin everyone else's day because someone ruined mine. I have eaten chocolate, cried in the closet, etc. But those things don't really improve the situation. :lol: If it makes you feel better... :D

 

I have just decided that 10yo ds doesn't care at all about anything other than math and music. At this point, I just want it done. I will not be spending my time trying to come up with fun lessons when he is just irritated by it as if I am actually trying to think of ways to make the lesson take longer. I will not leave him alone. I can't imagine that anything would be completed with any sort of accuracy or retention, but I do have other things that I need to do and so does he. We can't sit around all day drinking tea. We simply don't have more than 45min/day on history and 45min/day on science. 1.5 hrs on those two subjects is plenty. We have music lessons 3 days each week and math ouside the home twice. We have a play group each week. I just don't have the luxury of enough time to play Zen.

OTOH, I also don't want to feel like I am dragging a boulder through mud every. single. day. I am seriously considering Calvert with ATS without math for next year. It really isn't any more expensive than what I spent on curriculum for this year. I vote that if you can look at a program with a grading service and feel like it would motivate your dd and reduce the stress in your relationship with her then, sure, give it a shot. It is definite contender here. :)

HTH-

Mandy

 

To be clear, the "playing zen" period lasted maybe 2.5 days. Since then, we have been very productive and (mostly) blissfully happy. I am not "dragging a boulder through mud" anymore. We have moved on and have normal days now. I can even let him out of my sight for short periods and still expect work to be done. Well done, even.

 

The relationship improved because I addressed the situation differently. This was not a curriculum problem. In fact, DS9 was cured faster than a new curriculum could have been ordered, shipped, and received. :tongue_smilie: Not to mention the fact that we solved the actual problem. ETA: I will allow that change in some kids will naturally take longer than 2.5 days. Maybe a full week? Maybe a couple? But if it takes much longer than that, I would imagine there are bigger problems with the parent/child relationship that might be best resolved through other avenues besides adjustment of the curriculum. And the older they get, the longer you stay in this pattern with a child, the more intractable the situation becomes.

 

So, here's the thing, OP... What did you change? Yesterday was the first day and nothing changed. So, my question to you would be what did you change? Things don't change magically, because we hope they will. And meaningful change could not to be expected to emanate from the ordinary middle-aged human child. I mean, if we don't have the self-control and insight to break the behavioral pattern, why in the world would we expect it from them? Because we think they are the ones who have the power? No, no, no! We have the power. We just have to calm down and take it back.

[Pink and Green Mom]

Gee, I had just the same day you are describing. Lovely, isn't it?

 

Kristina, I just love your approach and you are my new hero. I will start using that tomorrow since in the past 10 minutes I may or may not have just lost it with my oldest and may or may not have just told him to take his *&%$ work and *&%^$% attitude to his room and do the work his *%@# self.

[AimeeM]

Monday was our first day back too... and boy, was it miserable. Tears on all sides (my dd is 11).

Just here to commiserate.

[fairfarmhand]

Monday was our first day back too... and boy, was it miserable. Tears on all sides (my dd is 11).

Just here to commiserate.

let me add my voice to the assent. Rotten day here too.

 

Went to bed completely drained.

[Mandylubug]

Yesterday was our first day back but was "light" ... Today is a full speed ahead day and we have had tears from 3 out of 4... I am sure I will be able to muster tears from the final 4th by the end of it all ;)

 

I will say I look forward to school days when my 10 year old can take his ADHD meds. He is just a happier, nicer person on those days. I know that seems horrible on my part but the adderal helps with his attitude, outbursts and all his other impulsive tendencies that tend to be like finger nails on a chalk board. We unfortunately don't take the meds on weekends and vacations but I wish he did. That is horrible, isn't it?

[Walking-Iris]

Lovely day yesterday---rotten day today. Honestly I don't think long breaks are good. Even ps teachers understand the grumpies after a winter break. My plan of attack is to make certain things as routine and daily as possible. We brush our teeth and change our underwear and wash our dishes everyday no argument, same with a math lesson, spelling or reading etc (whatever you want done daily) and make sure it is clearly spelled out and visible and there's no way the kid could have not known that it had to be done, like it or not. Other things like content subjects---science and history and any fun experiments---relax a bit on those. I don't even call that school anymore, I just get the stuff out and start it going and bring the kids along. I once sat my oldest down and started talking about a topic and asked him to write about it ---on a Saturday!!! He thought we were just having a fun time then he stopped and said, "there's no school on Saturday." And I said "who in the world said there was no talking or writing on a Saturday? Why is talking and writing just for so called school?" He got the point and we had a good time.

 

My point is---every time there is a school like atmosphere of "you have to or else" I get the attitudes. But if I try hard to make learning a part of life and teach my kids that there are some parts of life that are non negotiable (like math and reading) and some parts of life that are negotiable like history and science, then learning becomes as natural as breathing.

 

Look at it like this. I know I need to clean my toilet but I really don't want to....but I also know it really is not something I can just never do because it's disagreeable. Sometimes I'm annoyed about it and sometimes i just do it cheerfully and get on with my day.

 

Kids need to know what is a non negotiable, like it or not, and when they can get it over with and get on to something they do like.

 

You can't force a cheerful attitude, but you can expect responsibilities to get done.

 

There's no harm in changing curriculum, but a basic kind attitude and student/teacher/child/parent relationship needs to be established or it wouldn't matter what curriculum you try.

[Miss Tick]

I agree with pp - although that doesn't mean I actually do it... One thing I do do is spell it out if things are going down hill. "I know it can be hard to start back up after a break. If it is too hard, one solution would be to do less but do it every day." Sometimes the shock of this as a possibility helps all of us regain a little perspective.

 

Another thing I do is ease some work into our breaks. For instance, when visiting family for an extended period we will do school work some mornings when there aren't other distractions.

[AimeeM]

Yesterday was our first day back but was "light" ... Today is a full speed ahead day and we have had tears from 3 out of 4... I am sure I will be able to muster tears from the final 4th by the end of it all ;)

 

I will say I look forward to school days when my 10 year old can take his ADHD meds. He is just a happier, nicer person on those days. I know that seems horrible on my part but the adderal helps with his attitude, outbursts and all his other impulsive tendencies that tend to be like finger nails on a chalk board. We unfortunately don't take the meds on weekends and vacations but I wish he did. That is horrible, isn't it?

 

My dd takes her ADD meds 7 days a week. I feel you. We've missed doses before. Lol.

[happypamama]

I have had a couple of really good days with my crew, in terms of attitude and getting work done in a timely manner, and I'm exploring why in particular. These are just my random thoughts.

 

One, we started back to school last week but only did a few subjects. Yesterday, we ramped it up to full work. I think ramping up gradually (I did that back in the summer, starting with a couple of subjects and adding more every few weeks) really helped the kids.

 

Two, DD is not a fan of reading; she's easily distracted and doesn't like to be still. I gave her my cheap e-reader, and that has been a huge hit. She can't skip around easily, and she feels grown-up with the e-reader. She's been reading her schoolwork reading on the e-reader before bed. So not only is she enjoying reading much more, but she's starting school each day having already completed one subject.

 

Three, I do a lot of stuff as a family, rather than too much independent reading/work. I do Latin with DD; I don't make her write the answers very often, just answer them orally. I don't require her to read a lot of history independently; yes, she probably could (and sometimes I do make her read an additional book), but she loves history and loves when I read out loud (she also really likes audio books; listening is a better medium for her), so I do what I can to keep history (and Latin, her other favorite subject) enjoyable. (Otoh, she's not a fan of WWE, but I do pull the "yep, you have to do it" card with her for that.)

 

Four, for math, we have a deal that if she gets 90% or better on the tests, she only has to do the evens or the odds in the practice sets for the next five lessons (we use Saxon). I haven't seen a difference in her understanding in only doing half of the problems, and 15 is less tedious than 30. It flies by; 30 drags.

 

Now that DD's had some really good days and has seen how beneficial it is to get her work done faster, she's more motivated to work faster and harder, I think. I also got noise-canceling headphones for her, and I allow her to take her work to her room -- these cut down on ambient noise distracting her. Screen time (a weekend privilege) is also tied to a pleasant attitude about chores and schoolwork, including how quickly she gets them done.

[Cindyz]

Yesterday was our first day back but was "light" ... Today is a full speed ahead day and we have had tears from 3 out of 4... I am sure I will be able to muster tears from the final 4th by the end of it all ;)

 

I will say I look forward to school days when my 10 year old can take his ADHD meds. He is just a happier, nicer person on those days. I know that seems horrible on my part but the adderal helps with his attitude, outbursts and all his other impulsive tendencies that tend to be like finger nails on a chalk board. We unfortunately don't take the meds on weekends and vacations but I wish he did. That is horrible, isn't it?

 

Have you gone a long period of time recently without the meds to see his natural behaviors. Last year we took about a 3 month break from the ADHD meds and it was eye opening. We used to do what you do now and only gave him meds on the days he was in a school program outside the house (this was 4 days per week). We didn't give him meds on the weekends or during school breaks. However I noticed that when he takes the meds and then goes off, the days he's off, his behaviors are a LOT worse than they would be if he never took the meds. Giving him meds some days and not other days was like putting him on a roller coaster all week long. When we took the long break, I saw his natural behaviors again and yes he does still need the meds to help, but his behaviors were nothing like the days he was off the meds between the days he was on. It's as if there is some kind of withdrawal that happens that makes him extremely hyper (literally climbing walls) and almost touretteslike (which he's not when he's not taking the meds at all for longer periods of time.

 

After this experience, we realized that it wasn't fair to him to have days when he was escalating due to withdrawals and no fault of his own. We now give him the meds all 7 days. He goes off in the summer for a break. This gives him an even keel one way or the other.

[laura291]

I'm really glad I came across this. I had the EXACT kind of day today, and more and more days have been like this.

 

Kristina, thank you so much for your words of advice. You give me SOMETHING to cling to tomorrow, and I have hope for a peaceful day, with hopefully some learning too! :)

 

Laura

[freeindeed]

Here to commiserate! Yesterday was like this with me and dd12. I am going to do the "Zen" thing today. Thanks, Kristina!

[athena1277]

I can relate to the problems with WWE4 narrations. My dd just turned 10 and we have had problems this year. I finally got better when she decided that she wanted to write down her narration herself, instead of dictating it to me. I know it's not exactly how you are supposed to do it, but it has worked for us. She still struggles with it sometimes, but it's not because of me micromanaging every sentence.

[Susan in TX]

I would put her in school. If that is just not an option for you, I would minimize the amount of interaction you need to have with her. I would stop using WWE and any other curriculum that requires you to dialogue with her. I would also limit the amount of school I required. I would focus on getting the basics done with her. CLE might be a good option for you.

 

Susan in TX

[freeindeed]

I learned (the hard way! :D) that talking over my kids makes me nothing more than their puppet. I walked this path with my oldest and I will tell you what worked. As few words as possible, cheerfully and calmly expressed. I was zen like every Buddhist monk I have ever seen in the movies. :tongue_smilie: I had iced tea, lots of it. And I was right there next to him, engaged with reading, writing, grocery ad/list compiling, tongue-biting... "What, sweetie? You are still on your first page of math? That's OK. I have all the time in the world." Unaffected. I was the very picture of unaffected.

 

^^^^^

Thanks, Kristina! This worked for me yesterday, except I had coffee, and lots of it!

[Xanadu]

Gee, I had just the same day you are describing. Lovely, isn't it?

 

Kristina, I just love your approach and you are my new hero. I will start using that tomorrow since in the past 10 minutes I may or may not have just lost it with my oldest and may or may not have just told him to take his *&%$ work and *&%^$% attitude to his room and do the work his *%@# self.

 

 

Wow...I think I just had the same conversation with my 13 yo DS....*grin*

I definately plan on implementing Kristina's approach with my 7yo perfectionist, OCD daughter tomorrow....The 13yo is a lost cause at this point. (Up until recently he's always been my laid back, happy to please one. Not anymore, but it's more hormones than behavior at this point..hehehe.)

[Halcyon]

Here is something interesting i learned. The last couple of days i have been feeling I'll.some stomach flu or something. So i haven't been my normal, purely, let's get it done, let's move along, self. I have been tired and drained and just not up for AMy sort of push pull, back and forth with ds 10. And will wonders never cease, the days were calmer, more relaxed and yet still fairly productive! Its a miracle.lol ds was at the dining room table today, duly dallying over math and instead of my expressing frustration, instead (because i had zero energy) i said" just remember, anything you don't complete before after school will need to be finished IN after school". And i left it at that. He twiddled his pen, fiddled a bit, but eventually he did Get it done. He asked for help a couple of times, and normally i would say something like "you know this, you can do it on youre own" i was too tired to deal with the sighs that response would elicit, so i simply sat next to him while he explained the problem. Of course, by explaining the problem, he"saw" the solution and i didn't need ti say a word. So by creating less of a wall against which he could push,i was like that tai chimove where you absorb the aggression and deflect gentleness _or something like that) i was too sick or tired to react much so there was no wall or whatever against which he could fight.....does this make sense? Like i said i am a bit sick so it may not be very clear!

[kiwik]

Send him to school for 6 months? He might get that he is lucky then.

 

Also while I have not been on ADHD medications I have been on anti-depressants and taking them sometimes but not others makes you feel even worse than not taking them. I would hate to feel I only got to feel good on work days and had to withdraw for all my time off.