What do you think of this? -- Nurse Fired for Refusing Flu Shot

[Sahamamama]

I am amazed that this nurse was fired for refusing a flu shot!

 

My husband works in the medical field (anesthesia), and he never gets a flu shot. He said the one time he had it, he had the worst health ever. So now he is able to get a medical exemption. Over the years, as I've read more about the flu shots, I've become convinced that it's far better for most people to build up their immunity through nutrition, exercise, and rest.

 

But this nurse was fired. Wow!

 

http://news.yahoo.com/nurses-fired-refusing-flu-shot-224637902--abc-news-health.html

 

I'm curious what others think of this action on the part of the hospital. (Also nervous that this might become a trend in the medical field -- I can just see my husband standing on his convictions).

[Parrothead]

It happens every year somewhere. I think it is crazy.

[Joker]

Something that bothers me is that the article states that only 8 were fired, but according to their own stated 95% participation rate something like 1300 would have refused the shot. Why were the others not let go? I think it's ridiculous.

[mom31257]

Honestly, I expect more and more of this big government/big business control over our lives. It's really scary to think we can have our lives as we know it stripped out from underneath us at a whim. What gets me is why were only 8 fired? What about the other 1292?

 

We aren't vaccinating our kids anymore because my nephew had a reaction to a shot that has been determined to have triggered an underlying genetic condition that is triggered by trauma to the body. The vaccination medicine lot his came from had actually caused 2 deaths and 10 permanent disabilities, but it was still allowed out on the market.

[Joshin]

I'm torn on this one. There's employee rights, but then there is also patient health involved. The flu can kill my father. My dad is at the doctor's twice a week most weeks for normal visits so he is exposed to a lot of nurses. He gets his flu shot, but someone unaware of a developing health problem may not have their shot yet so nurse exposure could kill them or hospitalize them. By the time you know you have the flu you have already spread it. Nurses are exposed to every thing, all day, and I think it falls under their professional responsibilities to avoid spreading an illness using any feasible means.

 

If they have a documented allergy, then yes, they shouldn't get the shot.

[Kirch]

I might be more understanding of the decision to fire her if the flu vaccine had a better track record of actually matching the prevalent flu strains each year. I think firing for refusal of a shot that has a moderately high chance of not even being effective is overkill. And I'm generally pro-vaccine and got the flu shot myself this year (I don't always).

 

In light of a recent thread about nurses feeling pressured to work when sick, I'd be reeeaaally interested in their policies/actual practices regarding sick leave and calling in at this hospital.

[prairiewindmomma]

I think that if you aren't going to/cannot receive the shot that you should be required to mask (and change masks hourly as recommended).

 

I have had two kids who have been medically fragile (first was my dd with cancer.) We are spending the entire winter with all of our kids having no outside contact with anyone outside of immediate family or doctors (on doctor's strong recommendation).....we are doing all we can to protect our family as our current baby would likely end up on a vent if she caught influenza or RSV.

 

A hospital or doctor's office is one of the few places very medically fragile people go....they need to be doing all they can to protect their patients.

[mytwomonkeys]

Honestly, I expect more and more of this big government/big business control over our lives. It's really scary to think we can have our lives as we know it stripped out from underneath us at a whim.

 

 

absolutely agree with you.

 

as for the flu shot. not only do we opt not to get them in my household, but i think they are terrible. i would also be fired before i agreed to receiving one.

[BrookValley.]

I'm torn on this one. There's employee rights, but then there is also patient health involved. The flu can kill my father. My dad is at the doctor's twice a week most weeks for normal visits so he is exposed to a lot of nurses. He gets his flu shot, but someone unaware of a developing health problem may not have their shot yet so nurse exposure could kill them or hospitalize them. By the time you know you have the flu you have already spread it. Nurses are exposed to every thing, all day, and I think it falls under their professional responsibilities to avoid spreading an illness using any feasible means.

 

If they have a documented allergy, then yes, they shouldn't get the shot.

 

 

Not disagreeing with you, but this makes me ask (sorry if it's a stupid question): Couldn't you spread the flu even if you did get the vaccine? I'm assuming the flu virus is airborn and/or spread by contact? So couldn't anyone spread it by virtue of having had contact with the virus at some point (not necessarily having become ill because of it)? I honestly don't understand how the virus works, so like I said, may be a stupid question.

 

Of course there's still the "herd immunity" argument to be made in your case here, which is where I'm torn. In theory, the more people that are vaccinated, the more the spread of the virus can be prevented. Personally, we don't get the shot (we do vaccinate otherwise), because it doesn't seem like the risks outweigh the benefits *for us,* and I'm not sure (with the way different strains seem to be discovered every 30 seconds) that the vaccine is all that beneficial in a herd immunity sort of way.

[Pawz4me]

This is more harsh than I'd normally post, but . . . My mom has been in ICU for the past month. She was in a wreck, developed pneumonia and had to go on a ventilator. I hope and pray that every single employee in there has had the flu shot, voluntarily or not. I don't give a rip what their personal beliefs are. I think if they're that much against getting the vaccine they need to consider another career choice, or at least a job in a non-hospital environment.

[pdalley]

The flu shot was useless around here this year. It didn't match the strain and they are saying it's the worst outbreak for our county in 22 years. Maybe I'd be more on the side of the hospital if it had a more effective rate. Our ped has strongly advised against the shot and my grandmother got them every year. And she got the flu every year. DH has never had the flu and I seldom get it but I do have allergic reactions to almost everything these days.

 

Last year I was prepared to get it because my grandmother and mother were immune suppressed but it didn't match the strain then either and I was medically advised against it.

[sassenach]

Dh's hospital said you can opt out of the flu shot, but you would have to wear a mask every day at work.

 

This is the same for our local hospital and I totally agree with it.

[Reya]

It depends on where the nurse works. If you don't want a flu shot, you should choose your work appropriately as a nurse so you don't threaten the lives of the medically fragile.

[sassenach]

Something that bothers me is that the article states that only 8 were fired, but according to their own stated 95% participation rate something like 1300 would have refused the shot. Why were the others not let go? I think it's ridiculous.

 

My guess is that the other abstaining hospital employees don't have direct patient contact.

[Teresa in MO]

my dh is an outside contractor and does alot of work in hospitals. He does not come in direct contact with the patients. About three years ago the hospitals started requiring outside contractors to provide written verification that they have received the flu shot. They also require a yearly TB test. Up until then we never got the flu shots. He hates being told he has to get one, but he gets it. He has a very good paying job. He cannot risk his job by not getting one. I got one this year for the first time because I have a grandson that will be born the beginning of February and I will be taking care of my two granddaughters and helping my dd who will be moving around the same time. I can understand the point of view for those who have loved ones in the hospital, especially when you can be contagious the day before symptoms start.

[FaithManor]

The flu shot was useless around here this year. It didn't match the strain and they are saying it's the worst outbreak for our county in 22 years. Maybe I'd be more on the side of the hospital if it had a more effective rate. Our ped has strongly advised against the shot and my grandmother got them every year. And she got the flu every year. DH has never had the flu and I seldom get it but I do have allergic reactions to almost everything these days.

 

Last year I was prepared to get it because my grandmother and mother were immune suppressed but it didn't match the strain then either and I was medically advised against it.

 

 

The flu strain in our neck of the woods is also different from the vaccine...it does not confer even partial immunity and the disease is spreading like wildfire around here. DD is a medic and they are running their legs off on the weekends with elderly who get sick during the off hours and go down hill rapidly.

 

She's not vaccinated. She reacts very violently to one of the preservatives that is in the vaccine. Same preservative is in the Hep vaccine and she ended up in the ER for several hours in shock and let's just say that it was very, very frightening for us. That said, as a medic, this time of year you can count on her to work masked, gloved, and constantly disinfecting herself and her rig. She and the EMT have a lot more to fear from their patients than the patient does from them. They clean the rig in between patients, disinfect equipment, and even use disinfectant wipes on their clothing...coats, boots, you name it. This is typical unless there is a total breakdown in the city such as multi-car pile-ups or something in which they have to transport patients so incredibly close together that there is no time. Normal protocol is to be "out of service" after transporting a patient so there is time to disinfect and of course, have the drug box restocked.

 

I'll tell you the single biggest transmission area has got to be the doctor's office waiting room...people all coughing and hacking, everyone then touching the chairs, the coat hooks, door knobs, etc. when have you ever seen another patient disinfect anything they've touched or grab "purel" from their pocket and wash their hands...I've watched people leave their used kleenexes lying around. The absolute WORST is the pediatrician's office. Sick kids play with the toys and handle the books, put them down when they are called back, and the next kid picks those same toys and books up and on and on. Makes my head spin. I am still gobsmacked at how many doctors' offices still have toys, books, magazines, etc. NONE of that stuff should be out. People need to bring their own entertainment with them.

 

Waiting offices are petri dishes with things growing in them you don't want to see under the microscope!

 

No regular clothes either. Scrubs. I hate seeing general practice and infectious disease docs, and pediatricians wearing street clothes. They need to wear scrubs and have several pairs handy...have a patient hack up a lung all over you, GO CHANGE!!! Don't come to my room wearing that filthy lab coat or scrub top with mucus all over it. Sheesh!

 

Faith

[mumto2]

We just got our flu shots yesterday. I am pro flu vacine simply because I spent over 100 days in the hospital when pregnant with ds. At least 5 of my assigned nurses came down with and left their shift because of the flu. I never caught it -- I was vacinated. If I had caught the flu I probably would not have ds because for almost 5 of those weeks he was not viable. Coughing and sneezing once could make me contract -- can you imagine what the flu would have done? It was a dreadful flu season. The stress each time someone became ill while caring for me was huge for my family. We lived in dread for days. To be real honest my situation was bad already the added stress was not needed.

 

Because health professionals work with vulnerable people they should be vacinated. My dh, retired army, was required to be vacinated for pretty much everything. It was part of his job. He knew it when he signed his contract.

 

You had to have a TB test(chest xray type) annually to volunteer at our local hospital in the US. I don't get how a flu shot is any different.

[dirty ethel rackham]

If the flu vaccine had a decent track record of actually preventing the flu, then I would have a little more support for this policy. But, the vaccine is formulated, not on exact science, but on educated guesses, guesses that are more often wrong than right. My mom used to get a flu shot. Every year she got the shot, she ended up on the hospital with "flu-like symptoms" that they refused to call the flu, but still treated her as quaranteened. Then, she would cycle in an out of the hospital with nosocomial infections - most often c. diff. Her bouts with c. diff were much more life-threatening than the original "flu" was. Even though all the medical staff went by the party line that all elderly should get flu shots, we convinced her to stop ... she was never hospitalized with the flu after that. I discussed it with my doctor and he agreed with me that it is a crap-shoot on whether or not it will protect against anything and that, although the powers that be insist that people don't get the flu from the vaccine, there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise.

 

To say that you should restrict people from working in hospitals who don't have the flu vaccine is ridiculous. It is not a guarantee against transmitting the disease because it is not a guarantee against getting the disease. A bigger problem is health care workers coming to work sick. I can't tell you how many times I had to forbid certain nurses and patient techs from entering my mom's room when they were hacking and coughing. She was the safest when she was in isolation due to the precautions taking by everyone entering the room.

[DianeW88]

I honestly don't have a problem with it. If you are involved in direct patient care, then you need to take every precaution you can to not be a risk your patients' health. The flu shot is one precaution. Hand washing after every single patient is another. Changing scrubs if necessary and staying home even if you just *think* you might be coming down with something are others.

 

I would be devastated if I thought I had spread something to a medically fragile patient, a child with a compromised immune system, or a child with asthma or another respiratory issue, because I failed to get a flu shot. If your personal beliefs conflict with getting an annual flu shot, then you should not be involved in direct patient care during flu season. Get yourself reassigned.

[Χά�ων]

DS is immunosupressed, doesn't have to wait in any waiting room and I fear for his life everytime he gets sick. With that said, I would much rather nurses wear facemasks and wash their hands frequently rather than assume all is well because they recieved the flu shot. The flu isn't the communal disease.

 

[AvasMom]

Our hospital policy is no flu shot, no work unless you have a doctor's excuse and then you wear a mask all season. I think it's ridiculous. Not a hill to die on for me because the shot has never bothered me but if I were one of the people who get sick from it every year I would raise a huge fuss. At Hopkins you just had to wear a mask if you refused the shot which is reasonable IMHO.

[TracyP]

I think firing someone for refusing a vaccine that is only 59% effective is ridiculous. I don't know if I would agree with firing someone even if the vaccine was 95% effective, but at least there would be an argument in my mind. This year I would take the nurse wearing a face mask over the nurse with the flu shot any day.

[Mergath]

I think it's idiotic to lose your job over something like that. I'm assuming the nurse didn't have any kind of sensitivity to vaccines or else she could have gotten a doctor's note, so why in the world wouldn't she just get the stupid shot? Given that we live in a world where employers are apparently free to fire people they find overly attractive and to choose which medications their insurance won't cover for religious reasons, I think it's very reasonable for an employer to let go someone who is willing to compromise the health of patients because she doesn't want to get a flu shot.

[Catwoman]

This is more harsh than I'd normally post, but . . . My mom has been in ICU for the past month. She was in a wreck, developed pneumonia and had to go on a ventilator. I hope and pray that every single employee in there has had the flu shot, voluntarily or not. I don't give a rip what their personal beliefs are. I think if they're that much against getting the vaccine they need to consider another career choice, or at least a job in a non-hospital environment.

 

I just wanted to say that I'm so sorry to hear about your mom. I hope her health improves very soon! :grouphug:

[Ali in OR]

I just finished reading The Great Influenza by John Barry about the 1918-1919 flu epidemic. Flu shots aren't perfect but they are the best bet for avoiding the flu. The book covers a lot about the medical scientists trying to identify what was causing the epidemic and their efforts to put out some kind of vaccine. They of course were not able to do that at that time, but they did have some luck with vaccines against some of the secondary invaders that were killing people (like Type I and II of the pneumococcus). That flu was particularly deadly, but every year the flu kills an average of 36,000 people in the U.S. I think hospitals and medical care organizations have every right to insist that their employees are going to take every precaution to not be spreading influenza. The scientists working on infectious diseases know that vaccines are one of the best precautions--I trust these highly trained and educated people who fight this battle in the lab on a daily basis. This year's vaccine actually is an excellent match for the prevailing influenza virus out there. If you don't believe in the science of vaccines, working in the healthcare industry is probably not a good match for you.

[renmew]

_{Although I feel for the families affected by low immunity issues, I do not agree that the hospital in question was smart at all. Masks during flu season and responsible hand washing are much more effective. The flu shot is a guess that is often short or wrong altogether, and many people are allergic to it. This one nurse was fired, but maybe her coworker was not because she had an allergy excuse... so are the patients truly safe now?}

 

My family does not get the flu shot. During my early adult years I got very severe flu, enough to be hospitalized once, only the years I got the shot. The years I did not get it, I either didn't get sick at all or only got a mild case. Not one doctor has been able to give me a reasonable answer to explain my experience. So, we do not participate. Also, I have 38 students in my 2nd grade classroom. More than half were out over a three week period due to the flu, and every single one of those students out had received the flu shot. A few of the students who did not get sick at all had not received the flu shot.

[Live2Ride]

Just because you get the shot does not mean that you will not get the flu...I have friends that get it and still get the flu...no thanks.

[Mergath]

 

My family does not get the flu shot. During my early adult years I got very severe flu, enough to be hospitalized once, only the years I got the shot. The years I did not get it, I either didn't get sick at all or only got a mild case. Not one doctor has been able to give me a reasonable answer to explain my experience. So, we do not participate. Also, I have 38 students in my 2nd grade classroom. More than half were out over a three week period due to the flu, and every single one of those students out had received the flu shot. A few of the students who did not get sick at all had not received the flu shot.

 

And you know this how? I'm pretty sure doing a classroom survey about what shots your students have received would violate medical privacy laws...

[laundrycrisis]

I am opposed to all mandatory vaccination, with any kind of coercion involved, across the board. It is the right of each person to decide if they believe any vaccine is safe enough, and effective enough, to be worth the risk of getting it. We own our bodies, and parents get to make the decisions about their childrens' bodies. They are ours. We should never be compelled to have foreign matter injected into them. This should be voluntary in all cases.

 

I mean this even in the case of healthcare workers. If we are that concerned about them spreading things around, we can make it easier for them to have their own work schedules rearranged when they are not feeling well. In areas with the most vulnerable patients, we can require all workers to wear masks.

 

It makes no sense at all, and I do mean none whatsoever, to single out influenza and require a vaccine for it, a barely effective vaccine, for health care workers to be allowed to keep their jobs. IMO it provides a false sense of security and an income stream for the drug companies, and nothing more. Because that health care worker who does not have to wear a mask to come to work, because he/she got the flu shot, may come to work with the early stages of norovirus, strep, or adenovirus and pass that around. If the patients are immune compromised, all the workers in the area should have masks anyway, regardless of flu vaccination status.

 

I got very sick over the holidays. I went to urgent care. I was tested for both influenza and strep. I was negative for both of them. I had a different kind of viral infection, one of probably hundreds that are circulating in our community lately. Which they do every winter. This whole plague-of-flu, get your shot or wear a mask/lose your job mentality is ridiciulous. The flu vaccine is given so much more credit than it deserves.

[FaithManor]

DS is immunosupressed, doesn't have to wait in any waiting room and I fear for his life everytime he gets sick. With that said, I would much rather nurses wear facemasks and wash their hands frequently rather than assume all is well because they recieved the flu shot. The flu isn't the communal disease.

 

This. I actually feel that because of the shot, less precautions are taken. I've personally witnessed it. I've personally asked nurses and docs to wash their hands when my mom was recovering from surgery. They were going to check her vitals and had recently just come from another patient and admitted to not washing their hands before entering mom's room. Nope, not happening. I've been told, "Well, I had the vaccine." My pat response is slightly more politically correct than this but contains the message, "You aren't touching her with a ten foot pole until you wash, glove up, and grab a mask. At least rub down with an antiseptic wipe too or change your lab coat or scrub top." Besides, I get a lot more nervous about strep/MRSA/staph than I do about the flu and there isn't any vaccine for that to say nothing of the myriad of other communicables for which the only protection is excellent hygiene protocols.

 

That said, most of the nurses I've ever known, lab techs two, were fastidious about their protocols. It's the docs; it's nearly always the docs. I have sometimes wished that hospital rooms came equipped with bleach misting equipment and a wireless remote. Doc starts to come through the door, patient or patient advocate hits the button, doc is bleached, crisis averted! :D

 

Faith

[renmew]

And you know this how? I'm pretty sure doing a classroom survey about what shots your students have received would violate medical privacy laws...

 

It's a small school and a close community. I am very close with the parents in my class, and we all chat. Some of the moms were really concerned that more families weren't doing it and thought it should be made mandatory to be at the school. Other moms (and a couple of dads) felt it didn't work well enough to force it, and through this conversation we all got to chatting.

[mommymilkies]

I think it is ridiculous. I used to work med/Surg. Most nurses refused the flu shot. The ones who don't were always sick afterwards. I tell you what, the nurses who don't get the shot are the LEAST of your worries. I can not begin to tell you how many visitors would go into isolation rooms (often droplet MRSA), and come out and walk the halls or eat in the cafeterias. Or take kids in. People just don't get it. Nurses have training and take precautions. We wash hands a million times, sterilize everything in sight, keep our germs away from yours. Most don't come in with fevers or infections unless forced by administration (blame them!). Heck they had me working the day after getting a biopsy in my neck, but they wouldn't have me in there with flu symptoms. You would not believe the nasty infections on your hospital floor when you are admitted. And the ER is worse. That's a huge risk in any medical facility. Hospital acquired infections are often from the very fact that it is IN the hospital (a germ nursery) and people keep bringing more in. Don't even begin to believe a nurse with flu shot is going to protect your loved ones because she had that shot which isn't even very useful or relevant to the strains causing problems right now.

[laundrycrisis]

 

This. I actually feel that because of the shot, less precautions are taken. I've personally witnessed it. I've personally asked nurses and docs to wash their hands when my mom was recovering from surgery. They were going to check her vitals and had recently just come from another patient and admitted to not washing their hands before entering mom's room. Nope, not happening. I've been told, "Well, I had the vaccine." My pat response is slightly more politically correct than this but contains the message, "You aren't touching her with a ten foot pole until you wash, glove up, and grab a mask. At least rub down with an antiseptic wipe too or change your lab coat or scrub top." Besides, I get a lot more nervous about strep/MRSA/staph than I do about the flu and there isn't any vaccine for that to say nothing of the myriad of other communicables for which the only protection is excellent hygiene protocols.

 

That said, most of the nurses I've ever known, lab techs two, were fastidious about their protocols. It's the docs; it's nearly always the docs. I have sometimes wished that hospital rooms came equipped with bleach misting equipment and a wireless remote. Doc starts to come through the door, patient or patient advocate hits the button, doc is bleached, crisis averted! :D

 

Faith

 

This. Exactly ! The false sense of security associated with the flu vaccine is making patients more vulnerable to catching various things from the health care workers.

[mommaduck]

Our family (immediate and extended) has been the same as a pp. Those that receive the shot get EXTREMELY ill those years. Those that don't, don't get ill or only mildly get ill. I have a child with immune issues (and I do as well). She is also vax reactive. I'd prefer an RN that did NOT get this particular shot.

[melissad2]

My hospital forces us to get it every year. I don't put up a fuss because I usually get it anyway. This year it was worthless because we got he flu anyway.

 

When the policy first came out there were several who refused and got fired. One employee took it to court and lost.

[Impish]

Reality of it is, the vaccine is a crap shoot. They *guess* which strains may be an issue any given flu season.

 

I had this discussion when I worked in health care, b/c I refuse the shot. I asked, "What happens when the strain going through the LTC *isn't* one included in the shot?" *crickets*

 

They had no answer. They would suspend ppl who didn't get the shot if there was a flu outbreak, but had no protocol for when the strain wasn't included in the shot. Makes loads of sense.

 

What also kills me, having worked front line, is there's always loads of signs up, telling visitors not to visit if they're unwell...yet, if a staff member calls in sick, they get threatened w/being fired for not showing up. Visitors go home, you're sick, staff, unless you're dying, you'd better be there.

 

Yup, loads of sense. *eyeroll*

[ktgrok]

FYI, that death rate for the flu actually includes pneumonia, which is the larger part of it, and often not viral anyway.

 

As for the vaccine, I don't think it is that effective and would rather see universal precautions followed.

[FaithManor]

Hmmmm...I think that if this research published in Lancet holds up, she'll win on appeal.

 

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/cidrap/content/influenza/general/news/oct2511lancet.html

 

Those efficacy numbers aren't good enough and specially when you consider that this is the efficacy against the strain guessed to be the correct one for the season. If the strain is very much different at all, the efficacy against it would be nothing more than marginal at best.

 

These things just don't seem to be as effective as say Tetnus which is an AMAZING vaccine that seriously saves lives. Even polio and measles vaccines have excellent rates. I'm not impressed with the research on the flu vaccine.

 

The worst number was that the elderly only gained, at best, 31% chance of immunity. So, they trotted out a vaccine with four times as much antigen in order to provoke an immune response but one has to consider...if it takes that much antigen...is the vaccine contributing to more immune problems? Seriously, that's a LOT of weakened virus and in an already weakened immune system it begs the question, "Exactly how many elderly folk get the flu from the flu vaccine?" Thought provoking stuff.

 

Faith

[Katy]

I agree that the flu is the least of your worries if you're in the hospital. Especially because if someone is known to have influenza in the hospital they are put on droplet precaution isolation so that staff doesn't accidentally transmit the flu to someone in the next room who has immune issues like HIV. MRSA, however, is EVERYWHERE.

 

A couple of years ago when an H1N1 flu strain was called "an epidemic" the hospital I worked at at the time required two flu shots (one specific to the dangerous strain, one regular) from everyone in patient contact for the first time ever. So many of us had adverse reactions that the shot that the hospital cancelled the policy and sent the batch back... They called it a "bad batch" when more than 30% of people had nerve reactions to the shot. Mine was rather mild- my right knee went numb and I had a strange sensation of cold water being poured down my right outer thigh for several months afterward. I was concerned I was developing MS and had a ton of tests done until the news broke about the reason the shot rule had been suddenly reversed. Now NONE of those people who got that shot can EVER have a flu shot again, even when we're older and we get compromised immunity. I believe in flu shots, but I really wish I had put that particular shot off until the end of the deadline...

 

BTW... despite multiple shots, that was the only year in the last 20 that I've ever had influenza.

[Katy]

 

The worst number was that the elderly only gained, at best, 31% chance of immunity. So, they trotted out a vaccine with four times as much antigen in order to provoke an immune response but one has to consider...if it takes that much antigen...is the vaccine contributing to more immune problems? Seriously, that's a LOT of weakened virus and in an already weakened immune system it begs the question, "Exactly how many elderly folk get the flu from the flu vaccine?" Thought provoking stuff.

 

Faith

 

 

The thing is, viruses aren't alive, so there's no way to kill or weaken one. The way it works is two fold- for injected vaccines there are little pieces of viral DNA broken up. If they were full viruses they would infect you. But your body doesn't typically need to have an immune response to tiny pieces of viral DNA, so without the adjuvants you wouldn't have an immune response at all. The body would basically ignore it. The adjuvants are basically a little bit of poision that forces your immune system to engage with the poison, and since it is mixed with DNA, your body creates antibodies to that DNA.

 

For Live vaccines you are actually being infected with the flu, but with a strain that can't replicate at "normal" body temperature. It can, however, infect your cooler upper respiratory tract. And if you live or work in a cold area, or if you have immune, hormone, thyroid or hypothalamus issues that mean your "normal" body temperature is two degrees below "normal," then you are going to get rip-roaring sick. And you're going to transmit that new weakened virus to everyone around you too. Even if you're a nurse working with patients with lower body temperatures. The good news is that some sweaty time in a sauna or hot bath to induce a fever can help stop that one quickly.

[FaithManor]

 

 

The thing is, viruses aren't alive, so there's no way to kill or weaken one. The way it works is two fold- for injected vaccines there are little pieces of viral DNA broken up. If they were full viruses they would infect you. But your body doesn't typically need to have an immune response to tiny pieces of viral DNA, so without the adjuvants you wouldn't have an immune response at all. The body would basically ignore it. The adjuvants are basically a little bit of poision that forces your immune system to engage with the poison, and since it is mixed with DNA, your body creates antibodies to that DNA.

 

For Live vaccines you are actually being infected with the flu, but with a strain that can't replicate at "normal" body temperature. It can, however, infect your cooler upper respiratory tract. And if you live or work in a cold area, or if you have immune, hormone, thyroid or hypothalamus issues that mean your "normal" body temperature is two degrees below "normal," then you are going to get rip-roaring sick. And you're going to transmit that new weakened virus to everyone around you too. Even if you're a nurse working with patients with lower body temperatures. The good news is that some sweaty time in a sauna or hot bath to induce a fever can help stop that one quickly.

 

Sorry! I didn't mean to mix the use of live vaccine with virus but inadvertently did so.

 

The research published in Lancet has not been called into question as far as I've been able to find on the net.

 

Faith

[Mom2pandc]

I didn't read all of the replies, but this hospital is somewhat local to me...I've worked as an X-ray tech at a competing hospital for over 10 years and have a few former classmates who work at Goshen.

The thing that has me up in arms is, not everyone who refused got fired. Some people were granted the religious and medical exceptions. These 8 were not granted their requests and were not given a substantial reason as to why.

The flu vaccine is only about 60% effective in any given year, and just because you've had a shot doesn't make the flu less communicable between a nurses patients through contact. Hand washing and standard precautions would be much more effective than a shot to protect the nurse.

The nurses also weren't given substantial medical evidence to back up the hospitals mandate of the flu shot.

I think it's sad, and completely biased for them to grant some exceptions, but saying for others, a religious belief is not enough to exempt them. The area in question for this hospital is also highly Amish and Mennonite. I highly doubt 100% of the patients and visitors have had the flu vaccine.

I understand the hospital is making en effort to curb the spread of the flu, but there are other ways to prevent the spread of all viruses, not just a shot.

[FaithManor]

The area in question for this hospital is also highly Amish and Mennonite. I highly doubt 100% of the patients and visitors have had the flu vaccine.

 

I taught for a couple of semesters at Goshen College in the piano ped department way back in the mists of time! LOL

 

The college is across the road from the hospital and the nursing students do their clinicals there or at least they did when I was on the faculty.

 

As a matter of fact, when I was there, the college had an outbreak of Hep A (I think that was the strain...the one you can get from bad water and spread easily with casual contact) in one of the men's dorms when some kids came home from a mission trip in Guatamala with it and had a week to go in the dorms before heading home for the summer. Over 40 students ended up with whatever the bug was and the campus was quarantined. They also had to track down every passenger on the plane with these students and the airports they traveled through. It was not fun! The hospital was desperate to try to control it because several of the kids had been in the ER with lots and lots of people coming and going. Can you imagine that mess?

 

Faith

[Sahamamama]

I agree that the flu is the least of your worries if you're in the hospital. Especially because if someone is known to have influenza in the hospital they are put on droplet precaution isolation so that staff doesn't accidentally transmit the flu to someone in the next room who has immune issues like HIV. MRSA, however, is EVERYWHERE.

 

A couple of years ago when an H1N1 flu strain was called "an epidemic" the hospital I worked at at the time required two flu shots (one specific to the dangerous strain, one regular) from everyone in patient contact for the first time ever. So many of us had adverse reactions that the shot that the hospital cancelled the policy and sent the batch back... They called it a "bad batch" when more than 30% of people had nerve reactions to the shot. Mine was rather mild- my right knee went numb and I had a strange sensation of cold water being poured down my right outer thigh for several months afterward. I was concerned I was developing MS and had a ton of tests done until the news broke about the reason the shot rule had been suddenly reversed. Now NONE of those people who got that shot can EVER have a flu shot again, even when we're older and we get compromised immunity. I believe in flu shots, but I really wish I had put that particular shot off until the end of the deadline...

 

BTW... despite multiple shots, that was the only year in the last 20 that I've ever had influenza.

 

 

 

That's another reason my husband refuses (and would refuse, even if required) to get the flu shot. A number of nurses he's worked with over the years have had terrible reactions to flu shots, including one excellent nurse who totally lost the use of her arm. And now she can't work as a nurse, because of that one flu shot.

 

I agree with Faith -- doctors seem to be the worst offenders about not washing when they come into the treatment room. I have learned to be assertive and watch closely, not get distracted by the initial introduction ("Hi, I'm Dr. So-and-So, what seems to be the problem?"), and SPEAK UP and say, "Please wash and glove before examining me." They don't like being told this at all. I have noticed that, IME, nurses usually have much better application of germ prevention training. IOW, they WASH their hands.

 

I also agree with Faith that a doctor's waiting room is a petri dish of germ culture.

[Mom-ninja.]

When my dh worked at a hospital anyone who declined the flu shot was given a penalty of $150 out of their paycheck.

 

 

No one should be coerced to get a vaccine.

[Lisbeth]

My food allergic kids will never be chefs, because they are allergic to many things.

 

If you can't take the protective measures needed for your job for whatever reason, you are in the wrong job.

[Impish]

But the idea that the flu shot is an effective 'protective measure' is a fallacy.

[Ali in OR]

But the idea that the flu shot is an effective 'protective measure' is a fallacy.

 

Not really. It doesn't have to be 100% foolproof to reduce the number of illnesses. From a public health perspective, you would be looking at statistics for a large population sample. Let's say that every year the flu shot has a 60% chance of nailing that year's virus (that's someone's statistic upthread--I haven't verified it). Even if you miss it one year, over a 10 year period the flu shot is very effective at least half of the years. The more people that get the shot, the fewer number of illnesses there are. Even at a 60% chance of the shot matching a given year's virus, over the long run with a large population flu shots are going to reduce the number of cases and thus the number of deaths.

 

I'm not sure what kind of science proves that flu shots don't work. Anecdotal evidence ("Once I got the shot and that's the only time I got sick") proves nothing. Did you have the flu or another virus? Did the shot that year match the strains in circulation? Well-designed experiments and trials prove that vaccination is effective at reducing the number of cases in a population. No one would invest the kind of money that vaccination costs otherwise. Vaccination exists because it is an effective means of providing some protection against flu and other deadly illnesses. Perfect protection? No. But they do reduce the total number of illnesses. This has been proven at least since the early days of the 20th century. It makes sense to me that hospitals and other healthcare providers would want to do whatever they could to reduce the total number of illnesses. That would include steps like hand washing, equipment sterilization, and using masks. It's reasonable that they would also want to limit the number of flu transmissions, and taking steps to make sure their own staff members are not transmitting the illness (i.e. requiring vaccination) helps that goal. Don't want a vaccination? Don't work in traditional healthcare.

[Supertechmom]

I would be less skeptical about the flu vaccine mandate if hospitals were not going to get a 2 point or 2 %( can't remember right now which it is) increase in Medicaid/Medicare reimbursement from the Feds if they get their vaccinations rates up to par. Do not be fooled by any health care establishment stating this is to improve patient care or anything like that. It is all about bottom line profit. Force everyone to get a flu shot and we get a kickback. That is all that is behind the mandate.

 

I've always said that if we could follow the money and the stock options of those in gov and on hospital boards, CDC, and other gov. agencies, we would be shocked at how closely tied to Big Pharm it all is. The flu vaccine is the bread and butter of the industry. The more people that can be forced into it, the more money a lot of higher ups make. The health industry is managed a lot like the schools. A lot of higher ups calling the shots based on bottom line while the drs and nurses are wallowing the trenches trying to make it work. I'm frustrated with it. We're screaming for flu shots and we have people dying like flies with diabetes,unhealthy living and eating and not doing jack to right that. But we can make sure everyone has a flu shot. Cause the flu shot will do more for you than eating well, exercising, and staying healthy. We need to change our focus.

[Ali in OR]

I would be less skeptical about the flu vaccine mandate if hospitals were not going to get a 2 point or 2 %( can't remember right now which it is) increase in Medicaid/Medicare reimbursement from the Feds if they get their vaccinations rates up to par. Do not be fooled by any health care establishment stating this is to improve patient care or anything like that. It is all about bottom line profit. Force everyone to get a flu shot and we get a kickback. That is all that is behind the mandate.

 

I've always said that if we could follow the money and the stock options of those in gov and on hospital boards, CDC, and other gov. agencies, we would be shocked at how closely tied to Big Pharm it all is. The flu vaccine is the bread and butter of the industry. The more people that can be forced into it, the more money a lot of higher ups make. The health industry is managed a lot like the schools. A lot of higher ups calling the shots based on bottom line while the drs and nurses are wallowing the trenches trying to make it work. I'm frustrated with it. We're screaming for flu shots and we have people dying like flies with diabetes,unhealthy living and eating and not doing jack to right that. But we can make sure everyone has a flu shot. Cause the flu shot will do more for you than eating well, exercising, and staying healthy. We need to change our focus.

 

Your evidence?

 

Has it occurred to you that if more Medicaid patients get flu shots that they will be less likely to get the flu, get secondary pneumonia, and cost us $5k-$10k per day for hospital care all because they got the flu? No health care establishment profits off flu shots. But they may save major money by not having people in the hospital.

 

My insurance company pays for my flu shot. If all of their customers get flu shots it will save them hospital costs because a certain percentage of flu patients end up in the hospital--makes good business sense. They also send me e-mails and literature on living a healthy lifestyle because that will save them money too. But it's also a much more complex problem to try to solve then just getting a flu shot.