Can we discuss using WWE with and older child?

[A home for their hearts]

I'm going to start WWE with my ds who just turned 12. I've waited to use it with him because I believe he has dysgraphia and also some undiagnosed language processing issues.

 

I'm going to start him in level 1 and try to do 2 or 3 days of work in 1 lesson. I believe he is capable of doing the amount or writing required of that many lessons in the beginning. As we move foward we will probably have to slow down. I am hoping to get through levels 1 and 2 in a year.

 

If you've worked with an older student did you combine lessons? If so how? I'm also curious to know how older beginners faired with WWE? Do you see improvement in their writing and summarizing abilities?

 

Thanks!

[Sahamamama]

I don't have experience with using WWE with an older student, but I do wish I had accelerated WWE 1 last year for 1st grade. I might accelerate WWE 2 this year for 2nd, by skipping lessons or simply going faster. I think the point is to master each level of writing, not necessarily to finish each and every assignment for each and every week.

 

In your shoes, I might do it this way:

1. Work through every assignment for Weeks 1-18 at a double pace. That is, complete the first half of WWE 1 in 9 weeks.
   
2. You could accomplish this by doing:
   
   • Monday = Week 1, Day One (Copywork) & Day Two (Narration)
     
   • Tuesday = Week 1, Day Three (Copywork) & Day Four (Narration + Copywork)
     
   • Wednesday = Week 2, Day One (Copywork) & Day Two (Narration)
     
   • Thursday = Week 2, Day Three (Coywork) & Day Four (Narration + Copywork)
     
   • Friday = Narration practice; tie up loose ends
      
     

[*]When you've worked through half of WWE 1, administer the assessment that is at Week 36. How does he do? What does he need to continue to work on? What has he mastered? How can you practice those skills in other subjects (e.g., orally forming complete sentences instead of fragments; remembering one thing about a passage; copying carefully; making a connection between his oral narration--your dictation--his copywork)? Make notes of what you want to work on in the next 9 weeks (in other areas) to maximize the skill-building.

[*]Next, on your own, look through the remaining lessons for Weeks 19-35 and make a note of those lessons that address areas needing more practice. Work through only those lessons to complete WWE 1 in another 9 weeks. In that way you will complete WWE 1 in half a school year.

[*]WWE 2 might work the same way, or it might spill over into the following school year, depending on how much additional practice your son needs after the mid-course assessment.

Another alternative is to simply work through odd-numbered lessons in both levels. Thus, Week 1, Week 3, Week 5, and so on. But he might miss what he needs doing this. I do think that in WWE 1 it is easy to double up lessons in one day, if the student doesn't struggle with the physical act of writing. HTH.

[A home for their hearts]

I don't have experience with using WWE with an older student, but I do wish I had accelerated WWE 1 last year for 1st grade. I might accelerate WWE 2 this year for 2nd, by skipping lessons or simply going faster. I think the point is to master each level of writing, not necessarily to finish each and every assignment for each and every week.

 

In your shoes, I might do it this way:

1. Work through every assignment for Weeks 1-18 at a double pace. That is, complete the first half of WWE 1 in 9 weeks.
    
   
2. You could accomplish this by doing:
   
   • Monday = Week 1, Day One (Copywork) & Day Two (Narration)
      
     
   • Tuesday = Week 1, Day Three (Copywork) & Day Four (Narration + Copywork)
      
     
   • Wednesday = Week 2, Day One (Copywork) & Day Two (Narration)
      
     
   • Thursday = Week 2, Day Three (Coywork) & Day Four (Narration + Copywork)
      
     
   • Friday = Narration practice; tie up loose ends
     

[*]When you've worked through half of WWE 1, administer the assessment that is at Week 36. How does he do? What does he need to continue to work on? What has he mastered? How can you practice those skills in other subjects (e.g., orally forming complete sentences instead of fragments; remembering one thing about a passage; copying carefully; making a connection between his oral narration--your dictation--his copywork)? Make notes of what you want to work on in the next 9 weeks (in other areas) to maximize the skill-building.

 

[*]Next, on your own, look through the remaining lessons for Weeks 19-35 and make a note of those lessons that address areas needing more practice. Work through only those lessons to complete WWE 1 in another 9 weeks. In that way you will complete WWE 1 in half a school year.

 

[*]WWE 2 might work the same way, or it might spill over into the following school year, depending on how much additional practice your son needs after the mid-course assessment.

Another alternative is to simply work through odd-numbered lessons in both levels. Thus, Week 1, Week 3, Week 5, and so on. But he might miss what he needs doing this. I do think that in WWE 1 it is easy to double up lessons in one day, if the student doesn't struggle with the physical act of writing. HTH.

 

Thanks this is very helpful!

[Sahamamama]

:lurk5: Here's a pop. :bigear:

[nansk]

Is there a WWE 1-4 skills sequence somewhere online that I can refer to?

[Sahamamama]

Is there a WWE 1-4 skills sequence somewhere online that I can refer to?

 

 

If you go here and scroll down, then click on "Diagnostic Evaluations," that will give you a good idea of what are the target skills for each level. HTH.

[GoVanGogh]

I used WWE 1 with DS when he was in first grade. It was a total flop at the time, as he could not do the penmanship required.

We have used several other writing programs over the years, but I have felt like I had to drag DS along with the penmanship. I don't know how much he retained.

Fast forward: He just turned 11 and we are re-starting WWE at the beginning, but I am having him type up the lessons instead of write them out.

He is good at summarizing and putting his thoughts into complete sentences. His penmanship is still awful. (Recently dx with a physical condition that explains penmanship issues we have had.) His spelling and writing skills are lacking because I devoted too much time trying to work on penmanship. I am using WWE1, at this point, for dication, spelling and typing.

We are doing one week of lessons in one day.

I give him both copywork sentences as a dictation lesson for him to type. If there is a word that he doesn't know how to spell, I write it out for him and go over the spelling rule. Then he reads the passage and I ask him questions. I write down his answers for him to type out on the computer. Repeat for the week's lessons.

I really don't know at this point how it will progress through the levels. I will just go at his speed and not have a set date I want to finish by. If a lesson is too much for one day, I will decide what to do on the fly. (Either drop part of a lesson if DS knows the material or stop mid-lesson to pick up another day, I imagine.) We will be using WWE every single day, though.

[Jeeves]

We are doing one week of lessons in one day.

I give him both copywork sentences as a dictation lesson for him to type. If there is a word that he doesn't know how to spell, I write it out for him and go over the spelling rule. Then he reads the passage and I ask him questions. I write down his answers for him to type out on the computer. Repeat for the week's lessons.

I really don't know at this point how it will progress through the levels. I will just go at his speed and not have a set date I want to finish by. If a lesson is too much for one day, I will decide what to do on the fly. (Either drop part of a lesson if DS knows the material or stop mid-lesson to pick up another day, I imagine.) We will be using WWE every single day, though.

 

 

I am doing this same thing with my 11 yo. We got through WWE 1 during this first semester doing a whole week in one day (probably about 9 weeks--we could have gotten through it faster, but we often didn't get to it--I need to rethink my schedule for this semester!) and started WWE 2. He's progressed quite a bit and I think I may just skip most of WWE 2 and move right to 3. That's the one advantage to starting later with a child--they often progress really quickly!

 

Jacey

[mo2]

:bigear:

[Sahamamama]

We are working through the same thing with my dd 11. She has fine motor problems. We pretty much skipped through 1 and 2 and working now at slightly increased pace through 3.

 

She doesn't like it but its helping quite a bit. She enjoys writing creatively but needs better skills for expository writing.

 

We had the same problem we missed the skills because of dealing with/avoiding the physical act of penmanship.

 

We still do most of it orally and she types about half the work.

 

Has anyone on the board or at PHP ever written a post/article on how to adapt the WWE or FLL programs for students with dysgraphia or motor delays or similar issues.

It seems like it comes up a lot.

 

 

 

I'm not at all an expert on motor delays or dysgraphia, but I saw this a lot when I volunteer tutored years ago. One thing about these children that stuck with me was how aural/oral and how tactile many of these children were -- in other words, since they struggled with learning visually, they seemed to do better with a very auditory and/or kinesthetic approach.

 

For example, these boys (I tutored boys; it just worked out that way) could learn a TON of content knowledge by listening to audiobooks, poetry on CD, math fact songs, geography songs, and so on. So, instead of doing page after page of math fact drills -- NOT going to happen -- they could learn math facts through singing them. Or, instead of filling out the tiny boxes on the map of Africa -- NOT going to happen -- they could demonstrate mastery of the countries by singing the songs while pointing to a large wall map.

 

But English? How do you master content that, by its very nature, seems to require a written component? I would say that in working with these students, my heart got the better of my head, LOL! My approach was to let their brains mature to the point at which the physical act of putting something on paper would not be so tortuous. Many of these students just seem to need more time to mature neurologically. In the meantime, this is what we did to build skills in English:

• Spelling -- for the tactile kids, we used shaving cream, corn meal, pudding (no kidding), and big sidewalk chalk on a huge driveway (a complete riot, but a real hit). For the auditory kids, we used a spelling practice CD that the student listened to and repeated (over an over). And I did let some students review and/or test words orally. Now I'm using AAS with my own three, and I wish I'd known about it when I tutored.

• Penmanship -- I didn't originally think the way I do now (I was a "make them write" person), but the students were the reason for the shift in my thinking. They could not work that pencil. In truth, I began to see that there was SO MUCH more to these boys than "he can't write." That label rubbed me the wrong way, because the boy was so oppressed and embarrassed by it. And he felt so stupid to know that other people thought he couldn't write. And he knew this already. Then one day, I said to myself, "Just break the pencil already, and teach him to type." I didn't have access to a word processor then, but now I'd say stick with one form of writing (I'd go with modernized cursive, like New American) until 3rd or early 4th grade, and if it hasn't clicked by then, go to word processing.

• Copywork -- Well, how do you do this, apart from writing? Again, I like the idea of using a word processing program with older students. Not sure what you'd do with a 1st or 2nd grader who struggles with writing, other than work on very short, simple sentences (just to develop the habit of attention to detail). You could also print out the sentences to be copied in a large, simple font. You could print out the sentences to be copied using a StartWrite tracing font, and have the student trace instead. And if even that is torture and tears, you could print out the sentence in a large font and then "study it" -- that is, examine the sentence and discuss it with your student. Is there an upper case letter? Where? Why? What kind of sentence is this? How do you know? What do we call that punctuation mark? Do you see a contraction? Where? What two words does that stand for? And so on. This would put the correct written form in the student's data base, without the pain of writing.

• Dictation -- Again, by 3rd grade or early 4th, I would (now) move to a word processor with a large, highly visible font.

• Oral Composition (Narration) -- If you do Charlotte Mason style narrations (e.g., "Tell back what you learned"), then oral composition can be done with no paper in the house! :) So these are perfect for writing-averse students. For WWE style narrations, the teacher does the writing. For students with motor delays, perhaps the student could type the teacher's dictation, instead of copying it on paper.

 

Sorry. That's all I've got. I worked with struggling 5th/6th grade boys long ago, before I knew about WWE or AAS or FLL. You have a great suggestion about PHP doing an article or video. Why don't you post your question here?

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/443927-got-questions-for-me/

[Mukmuk]

These are awesome suggestions, Sahamamama!

 

Can someone help me with this? Ds is 10. I just started him on WWE4 without knowing there were any placement tests. I chose it more for reading level than anything else, and he needs chunky work to get engaged. He's coping really well with the writing, narration and dictation. Like a lot of the parents here with older kids, I'm finding that he zooms through fast. Am I missing out on anything by not starting at the lower levels? Also, I haven't looked at WWS yet, but with the skills he's picking up, will he able to make the jump after WWE4? Hope to hear btdt experiences :).

[GoVanGogh]

We had the same problem we missed the skills because of dealing with/avoiding the physical act of penmanship.

 

We still do most of it orally and she types about half the work.

 

Has anyone on the board or at PHP ever written a post/article on how to adapt the WWE or FLL programs for students with dysgraphia or motor delays or similar issues.

It seems like it comes up a lot.

I would love information - in general - about homeschooling a child with extreme fine motor delays.

I would especially love information about the classical ed method with a child who will, more than likely, never be able to write at more than a functional level. Said child has wonderful ideas but they are trapped in his head because he can't physically write well enough to get them down on paper. I do try and scribe for him, but he gets frustrated with that. I did just buy a voice recognition software program, as that looks to be the most promising method at this time.

 

I'm not at all an expert on motor delays or dysgraphia, but I saw this a lot when I volunteer tutored years ago. One thing about these children that stuck with me was how aural/oral and how tactile many of these children were -- in other words, since they struggled with learning visually, they seemed to do better with a very auditory and/or kinesthetic approach.

 

For example, these boys (I tutored boys; it just worked out that way) could learn a TON of content knowledge by listening to audiobooks, poetry on CD, math fact songs, geography songs, and so on. So, instead of doing page after page of math fact drills -- NOT going to happen -- they could learn math facts through singing them. Or, instead of filling out the tiny boxes on the map of Africa -- NOT going to happen -- they could demonstrate mastery of the countries by singing the songs while pointing to a large wall map.

 

But English? How do you master content that, by its very nature, seems to require a written component? I would say that in working with these students, my heart got the better of my head, LOL! My approach was to let their brains mature to the point at which the physical act of putting something on paper would not be so tortuous. Many of these students just seem to need more time to mature neurologically. In the meantime, this is what we did to build skills in English:

• Spelling -- for the tactile kids, we used shaving cream, corn meal, pudding (no kidding), and big sidewalk chalk on a huge driveway (a complete riot, but a real hit). For the auditory kids, we used a spelling practice CD that the student listened to and repeated (over an over). And I did let some students review and/or test words orally. Now I'm using AAS with my own three, and I wish I'd known about it when I tutored.
  
• Penmanship -- I didn't originally think the way I do now (I was a "make them write" person), but the students were the reason for the shift in my thinking. They could not work that pencil. In truth, I began to see that there was SO MUCH more to these boys than "he can't write." That label rubbed me the wrong way, because the boy was so oppressed and embarrassed by it. And he felt so stupid to know that other people thought he couldn't write. And he knew this already. Then one day, I said to myself, "Just break the pencil already, and teach him to type." I didn't have access to a word processor then, but now I'd say stick with one form of writing (I'd go with modernized cursive, like New American) until 3rd or early 4th grade, and if it hasn't clicked by then, go to word processing.
  
• Copywork -- Well, how do you do this, apart from writing? Again, I like the idea of using a word processing program with older students. Not sure what you'd do with a 1st or 2nd grader who struggles with writing, other than work on very short, simple sentences (just to develop the habit of attention to detail). You could also print out the sentences to be copied in a large, simple font. You could print out the sentences to be copied using a StartWrite tracing font, and have the student trace instead. And if even that is torture and tears, you could print out the sentence in a large font and then "study it" -- that is, examine the sentence and discuss it with your student. Is there an upper case letter? Where? Why? What kind of sentence is this? How do you know? What do we call that punctuation mark? Do you see a contraction? Where? What two words does that stand for? And so on. This would put the correct written form in the student's data base, without the pain of writing.
  
• Dictation -- Again, by 3rd grade or early 4th, I would (now) move to a word processor with a large, highly visible font.
  
• Oral Composition (Narration) -- If you do Charlotte Mason style narrations (e.g., "Tell back what you learned"), then oral composition can be done with no paper in the house! :) So these are perfect for writing-averse students. For WWE style narrations, the teacher does the writing. For students with motor delays, perhaps the student could type the teacher's dictation, instead of copying it on paper.
  

Sorry. That's all I've got. I worked with struggling 5th/6th grade boys long ago, before I knew about WWE or AAS or FLL. You have a great suggestion about PHP doing an article or video. Why don't you post your question here?

 

http://forums.welltr...estions-for-me/

I really appreciated your reply and input.

In my child's case, I thought we were dealing with typical left-handed wiggly boy not wanting to write. Several years ago, I realized there so was much more to it than that - but then to convince DH (who said I just needed to be more forceful about making DS write more) and our pediatrician, who laughed off my concerns. Fast forward - midway through 5th grade - we were given a medical diagnosis that DS really can't hold a pencil well enough to write. OT's current goal is to get him to a functional level so he can fill out forms and such, but put everything else on a computer. That just doesn't line up with my homeschool goals and plans, though, and I am struggling to shift them. I am having a hard enough time processing the diagnosis as a mother. But I have to process this as his primary teacher, too? I just can't wrap my brain around it.

 

We have actually talked about copywork/sentences quite a bit, like you mentioned, so DS has a wonderful grasp of grammar and vocabulary from our discussions. It just makes our schooling so teacher intensive! Actually, that is the main issue we have from the fine motor delays. DS is at a point where he wants and needs to be more independent, but the fine motor issues stand in our way. I am hoping the voice recognition software allows DS to be more independent.

Re: Oral narrations. I am so thankful that we started that at a young age. DS does so well with oral narrations. It is such an effective way to test a child's understanding of a topic.

 

I would also add in - lots and lots of hands-on learning via field trips.

I plan some of our literature studies around local theaters schedules so we can read a book, then see the play and compare/contrast the two. We normally do that orally on the way home from the play, while all is still fresh in our minds. (Though we often bring it back up several times over the following days.)

 

I did ask a question about fine motor delays in one of the PHP input threads.

The ladies on the SN board have been wonderful.

[nansk]

If you go here and scroll down, then click on "Diagnostic Evaluations," that will give you a good idea of what are the target skills for each level. HTH.

 

Thank you! :)