How do you have peace with this in your mind?

[Joanne]

I don't reconcile it. I struggled for years. Several of them with the platitudes and predictable "Christian" answers to your question.

 

I'm no longer Christian for this and a long list of other reasons. But if I were, my reconciliation would look something like this:

 

The Bible emerged *inspired* by a loving God but came into being through human hands. Human hands in a culture that valued oral *stories* to make points. Human hands that were unsophisticated in terms of science, psychology, and equality/egalitariansim.

 

I parallel God in the OT/God in the NT with punitive parenting vs. grace based parenting. The people created the OT God using punitive principles. This is the equivalent of making discipline and punishment synonymns. The NT God dispenses the punitive model and adopts a new paradigm.

 

In the end, I couldn't stay/be a Christian. But if I did, it would be a liberal Christian with metaphysical leanings.

[laundrycrisis]

 

 

I am interested in what you are saying. By the bolded, does that mean you don't believe Jesus came to earth or died, or is the son of God, or...? are you talking about the OT stories or the Bible/Christianity in general?

 

I cannot deny Jesus/God, I just can't. But I have had very personal experiences with Jesus or the Heavenly Father, I'm not sure which one, and I know that helps my faith. But I can relate to a lot of what you wrote.

 

I think it is important to separate our own relationship with the Divine from a building or a church group.

 

My views of Jesus are influenced by the reading I have done about how the currently accepted beliefs of Christianity came to be what they are today, and how the Bible came to be what it is today....that is, the human history aspects of that - not anyone's theories of how the process was somehow divinely influenced. Studying the history of how it evolved to its current state cleared up a lot of remaining confusion that I still felt. I have never felt that I am denying anything, but that my understanding expanded.

 

I personally separate my own relationship with what I experience as divinity from the specifics of any religion, but I find threads of it running through multiple religions/traditions/belief systems. I love feeling free to follow the threads where I find them.

 

I believe that the stories from various traditions, our stories, as humans, have something to teach us. They connect us to our ancestors, and as time goes on, they gather information and energy from the experiences of the people who participate in retelling them. Those people are gone, but they collectively left us the gifts of their stories. When I read or listen to these stories, I try to tune in to the part of the story that resonates to me as a spiritual truth, and follow that thread. I don't worry much about whether the details of the story are factually true or not. To me, the important part of having contact with a story, is that I understand its whispered message. To me, that is the important cargo of the story, and why it was woven in the first place. Whether it is 100% true, partially true, based on a true event but enhanced, or only ever existed in the mental realm, just to make a point, does not matter at all to me. What matters to me is the message it carries. I see the stories of religions in the same way. I don't need to believe them as factually true in order to learn and grow from them.

[Trish]

What is the Biblical basis for this?

 

Deuteronomy 1:39

Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it.

 

Matthew 18:2-3

And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

Matthew 5:8

8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

 

Psalms 27:10

10 When my father and my mother forsake me, then the LORD will take me up.

 

Mark 9:36

36 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them,

37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.

 

Romans 5:14

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offense, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

 

Jeremiah 1:5

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee.

[Mom0012]

 

 

There are already many interesting replies, but I'd like to add that God gave the Egyptians many, many, MANY warnings, over a very long period of time.

 

Also, it's important to be highly analytical and critical (in the sense of discerning what is actually in the Bible and what is opinion) when learning anything about God or the Bible from a TV show.

 

Best wishes to you as you grow in your faith.

 

I always perceived it as God giving many, many warnings to Pharoah. In my mind, it would be like another country giving many warnings to the President and then retaliating when they didn't get the response they wanted. Honestly, what could I, as an individual, do if the President was not willing to respond? What could the individual Egyptians have done?

[Mom0012]

 

I admit I have a hard time reconciling the OT God with the NT Jesus and it has caused me pain and turmoil.

 

Same here. What really sent my faith over the edge was then doing a study on Revelation. It's like being right back in the OT again and I just can't reconcile that with the New Testament. How can you have all those stories about Jesus and forgiveness and love and then follow it with the Book of Revelation?

 

Honestly, the only way I think I could ever restore my faith is to do a study on how the Bible was put together and find that the document itself is completely inaccurate. I think The Teaching Company has a series on the Bible. I've been meaning to check it out from the library for years, but I think I'm procrastinating because I'm afraid of what I'll find.

[Woodhaven]

I, too have questioned God's actions in some places in the Bible. I was serious enough to go and read the whole Bible from beginning to end and came away with a more whole and complete understanding of who we are (God's creation) and who he is (Just, Holy, Righteous, Loving, Gentle, etc.)

 

I'm concerned that you came away from that t.v. documentary with those feelings. Might I suggest that the producers of that show may have inaccurately portrayed our Creator God? I suggest that you go back and read the Bible from cover to cover.

 

We humans like to paint a better picture of ourselves than we deserve, I think. The Bible lays it all out - the good, bad and ugly. We humans have rebelled against a holy, perfect God. We don't deserve forgiveness, or anything good from him, but he HAS chosen to provide a way of forgiveness through his Son Jesus.

 

When we read the Bible (Old or New Testament) we read it from within our own cultural experience and our contemporary ideas of what is true. For many, there is no absolute truth. But I think truth has been warped in every age, including ours. We can only gain a true perspective by going back to God and hearing him.

 

As for me, I have come away from the Bible with the belief that God IS good, but he is also righteous. He created time and space and he exists outside of it, but is very much involved in our lives. He loves his creation! Every one of us. But he views time and creation from a perspective we just can't have.

 

I'm sorry you are hurting. I encourage you to ask God himself to reveal himself to you through his Word. (((hugs!)))

 

All this typed with respect for you and gentleness.

[6packofun]

Thank you all for your responses. It's given me some more to think about, but it's so hard to figure out. In mentioning the flood, that's another event that I just can't get over. If I were there and told my child to stand by me instead of going onto the arc, my child would obey me and in turn suffer and die. Or little infants that have no say in the matter and they just died...I just don't get it. Why is this even in the Bible? If God wants us to draw closer to him, why would he place such events that caused us so much question?

 

 

I think that this story, true history or not, is in the Bible because it shows us the character of God and a mirror image of the gospel. Most people would look at the taking of the firstborns in isolation and say that it shows us that God's character is cruel! But they would be passing by the earlier chapter (1) of Exodus which describes the infanticide that the pharaoh ordered. Pharaoh ordered the killing of male Hebrew children, NOT just firstborn, as a form of population control. In the OT we see an eye for an eye sort of justice, which is a difficult thing for us to understand. God allowed/commanded a certain kind of justice for his people and, not being a hypocrite, God practiced it himself. BUT, he was far more compassionate in his retribution--firstborn males only for all of those dead Hebrew children--because most of the firstborn males were *animals*. The original language says that there was not a household where there was not "something male dead". Children, too? Yes. But if a family's firstborn male died already (high infant mortality?) then there was no child to take. No grown firstborn males, either, so the human beings in those families were exempt. How many people died in the plagues, the warning after warning after warning that Moses gave before Passover?

 

Anyhow, I know it just sounds cold to justify killing ANY child. I get it. But thinking through it a little bit helps me because it reminds me of what punishment God could require of ME and yet he offers a way out. I can take that way or not, just like Pharaoh could have, and then the consequences come. Even the consequences God gave Pharaoh were no match, IMO, for what Pharaoh himself did! Again, hardly a feel good moment, but it does help. It seems silly to be angrier at God than Pharaoh when Pharaoh was given the equivalent of the if-then argument before every plague and he still decided to let his people suffer.

[Mom-ninja.]

Did you used to be a Christian? I'm asking because I grew up Christian but I would describe myself as Agnostic now but at the same time it's very hard to let go of beliefs I was raised with. But the world makes so much more sense since letting go of the bible and of religion. It's sad to say but I deleted quite a few people from my FB who were hateful and they were all Christians who use the Bible and God as excuses for their hatred. Anyways, I guess I'm just asking how you got from Christian to Athiest because I feel like I'm getting there myself.

 

Yes, I was but not in a strict religious home. I was told that God exists and Jesus was his son. I tried really really hard to believe it. I went to many different churches. I had many discussions with others including church leaders. As an adult I finally gave up on Christianity and explored other religions. I studied and learned about Judaism, Buddhism, Wicca, Hinduism, Confucianism, Islam, and Paganism. Ultimately, I still felt an urge to explore further. I wasn't satisfied. I became Agnostic. Then I finally allowed myself to let go of the supernatural all together, and now I am settled. I went through my struggles with fully embracing atheism, but once I understood the underlying foundation of why humans have and seek religion it made sense and made me feel better. Dan Barker's story about his journey to atheism might interest you.

[6packofun]

 

Honestly, the only way I think I could ever restore my faith is to do a study on how the Bible was put together and find that the document itself is completely inaccurate. I think The Teaching Company has a series on the Bible. I've been meaning to check it out from the library for years, but I think I'm procrastinating because I'm afraid of what I'll find.

 

 

I think this is a common thought pattern towards faith. That it's something WE produce and it's going to be lost if the Bible doesn't say what we want or hope it to say. "If God is this way...my faith will crumble." "If the Bible really does say this, I won't believe!" The focus here? ME. My logic, which again, is focused around me and the human sense of fairness that makes me higher and better than I probably am.

 

I think that the truths of the Bible are deep! They aren't so hidden that we cannot find them, but we will not have an accurate view of God himself--or ourselves--if we don't *study* it. There are so many connections to make in there! lol Surface readings or piecemeal readings do not do God's word justice at all and leave us with most of the common questions and issues that people have about it.

 

(Btw, I can't personally read the Bible all on my own and figure it all out, I need to have a hermeneutic (method of interpretation) that helps me see HOW to read it. This isn't a commentary, some human beings telling me what the Bible says. It's a method to use in my own interpretation that includes other aspects of the Bible like it's literary forms, it's historical and cultural foundations, etc. Hermeneutics is my friend. lol If it seems dumb that we'd have to have so much help reading the Bible, I think it's important to remember that we in modern America do not have a CLUE about how a first-second century Jew would have read the OT (or NT!). Why would Paul focus on one aspect of faith to one group of people and a totally different--but not contradictory--to another? These are important questions.)

[Lady Florida.]

I don't struggle anymore with religious dilemas. I'm am atheist. The world makes so much more sense now.

 

:iagree: Once I let go of belief in the supernatural, the world looked much better.

 

(and to think, people decorate nurseries with a noah's arc theme).

 

Even when I was still Christian, I never understood why this was considered a lovely children's story.

[Jenny in Florida]

I'm still not a Christian by any means, but reading Misquoting Jesus gave me a new perspective on a lot of what's in there.

 

 

I have not read this one, but I read another by the same author - "Jesus, Interruped", and I found it very helpful.

 

 

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm in the process of tiptoeing closer to something like Christianity, although it won't be what a lot of folks here would recognize as such. I'm listening to, and finding extremely interesting and moving, another of Bart Ehrman's books, Did Jesus Exist? I'm finding it very exciting to explore the idea that of "belief in" Jesus that is different from what I always assumed faith would mean.

[Library Momma]

 

Me too. I am curious of the Jewish perspective on this topic.

 

 

Well, in Reform Judiasm we don't really take any stories from the Torah literally. They may or may not have actually happened, but that is not important. In actuality it is probably a little bit of both. It is the morals and lessons learned that are important. I believe the other Jewish movements (denominations) view the stories the same way.

 

In addition I know that there is somewhat of a difference between the Torah and the Old Testament that it evolved into. Some of it is due to the additional levels of translation and some stems from changes made by the church through the years.

[justamouse]

 

Well, in Reform Judiasm we don't really take any stories from the Torah literally. They may or may not have actually happened, but that is not important. In actuality it is probably a little bit of both. It is the morals and lessons learned that are important. I believe the other Jewish movements (denominations) view the stories the same way.

 

In addition I know that there is somewhat of a difference between the Torah and the Old Testament that it evolved into. Some of it is due to the additional levels of translation and some stems from changes made by the church through the years.

 

:iagree:

 

I think what you are suffering from is the teaching that these stories were literal.

 

Some churches don't teach that they were literal.

 

Just realize that ALL Christianity doesn't view the OT as literal, that is just something you've absorbed from where you've attended. Separate that, and and then search out what the theme and meaning of the story as a whole is.

[laundrycrisis]

 

Same here. What really sent my faith over the edge was then doing a study on Revelation. It's like being right back in the OT again and I just can't reconcile that with the New Testament. How can you have all those stories about Jesus and forgiveness and love and then follow it with the Book of Revelation?

 

Honestly, the only way I think I could ever restore my faith is to do a study on how the Bible was put together and find that the document itself is completely inaccurate. I think The Teaching Company has a series on the Bible. I've been meaning to check it out from the library for years, but I think I'm procrastinating because I'm afraid of what I'll find.

 

These are the books that were most helpful to me:

 

The Rise and Fall of the Bible: The Unexpected History of an Accidental Book by Timothy Beal

 

Jesus, Interrupted: Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible (And Why We Don't Know About Them) by Bart D. Ehrman

 

Jesus Wars: How Four Patriarchs, Three Queens, and Two Emperors Decided What Christians Would Believe for the Next 1,500 years by Philip Jenkins

 

Biblical Literacy: The Essential Bible Stories Everyone Needs to Know by Timothy Beal

[Joanne]

I, too have questioned God's actions in some places in the Bible. I was serious enough to go and read the whole Bible from beginning to end and came away with a more whole and complete understanding of who we are (God's creation) and who he is (Just, Holy, Righteous, Loving, Gentle, etc.)

 

I'm concerned that you came away from that t.v. documentary with those feelings. Might I suggest that the producers of that show may have inaccurately portrayed our Creator God? I suggest that you go back and read the Bible from cover to cover.

 

We humans like to paint a better picture of ourselves than we deserve, I think. The Bible lays it all out - the good, bad and ugly. We humans have rebelled against a holy, perfect God. We don't deserve forgiveness, or anything good from him, but he HAS chosen to provide a way of forgiveness through his Son Jesus.

 

When we read the Bible (Old or New Testament) we read it from within our own cultural experience and our contemporary ideas of what is true. For many, there is no absolute truth. But I think truth has been warped in every age, including ours. We can only gain a true perspective by going back to God and hearing him.

 

As for me, I have come away from the Bible with the belief that God IS good, but he is also righteous. He created time and space and he exists outside of it, but is very much involved in our lives. He loves his creation! Every one of us. But he views time and creation from a perspective we just can't have.

 

I'm sorry you are hurting. I encourage you to ask God himself to reveal himself to you through his Word. (((hugs!)))

 

All this typed with respect for you and gentleness.

 

 

Typed with a refrain in my head of be kind and respectful.

 

I read the Bible, cover to cover, more than once. I studied it. I went to a seminary to earn my Master's degree. I was a Christian my entire life, active in the church until 18, left church activity until my oldest was born when I was 30, returned to church.

 

The Bible, and many millions of Christian's approach to it, drove me away from the Christian concept of God.

 

And, as my life unfolds, I see a Christian concept of God as twisted and people as *less* twisted. I don't welcome Christ's gift because I no longer believe I need "forgiveness" or salvation. I don't believe that people are born with "sin", depravity, a propensity to "sin", evil, or with a trajectory of wrong choices.

[dangermom]

 

Even when I was still Christian, I never understood why this [Noah's ark] was considered a lovely children's story.

 

 

Wanna know my personal theory? Sure you do! :D Well, back when everyone was a lot stricter about Sabbath-day observance (the 19th century, for example) the number of activities a child could do on a Sunday was very limited indeed. A kid could read a book, but it had to be a church kind of book, so there were two choices in most households: the Bible and Pilgrim's Progress. Thus we get PP as a popular classic through the generations. And if a kid was going to play with toys, they would have to be religious toys. A Noah's ark--essentially a zoo set when you strip it of the wider context--makes a very good Sunday toy for a small child, and many, many children had them. If a family had toys at all, an ark was a pretty basic and universal toy to have. Just look at all the older children's books that mention Noah's ark as a toy, and make it clear that there was a cultural solidity to it. Noah and Mrs. Noah are even described as having a distinctive look, just like we know exactly what Batman looks like.

 

So for at least a couple of hundred years, we've had the idea that Noah's ark = children's zoo set.. I don't know if there are that many Bible stories that can be turned into toys. Yes, you pretty much leave out all of the story except the animals, but it's a toy for tiny children.

[Dana]

 

Even when I was still Christian, I never understood why this was considered a lovely children's story.

 

 

I made my son a Noah's ark afghan. It was a really cool pattern. I did add an olive branch in the dove's mouth. Lots of different yarns for fun textures. The flood story is cruel. It's very much like Pandora's box though...the olive branch functioning as hope.

[susancollins]

I personally believe God doesn't waste anything he uses all circumstances to draw us closer to him. There is evil in the world and people have free-will and that is why bad things happen. I have had a miscarriage and a molar pregnancy God used both of these incidents to draw me closer to Him!!!

[susancollins]

I personally believe God doesn't waste anything he uses all circumstances to draw us closer to him. There is evil in the world and people have free-will and that is why bad things happen. I have had a miscarriage and a molar pregnancy God used both of these incidents to draw me closer to Him!!!

[bolt.]

It is my reasoned theological understanding that human mortality is caused by turning away from a life-giving relationship with God (who is the only source of life). As a speces I believe that is why we all die "sooner or later". It is passed around something like a hereditary disability. Our speces limps along carrying death within us, even from childhood. In fact, it's one of the very strange things about sin-and-death that anyone dies "later" that we actually do limp along and live and reproduce in this limited mortal way -- one would naturally expect people to die exactly-when they turn away from God, not decades later. The decades are God's mercy, extending Himself to relate to people even when people have rejected Him. Without that mercy, death would indeed be immediate (preventing any possibility of procreation).

 

That's why I think God views death very differently than us. He sees people, out of relationship with Himself as "already dead, sooner or later" and the only solution to that is the long-range salvation plan. Since a full lifespan is not a right, but a mercy, I see God as good and right when He occasionally chooses that some people are going to be dead "sooner" rather than "later" -- from a cosmic perspective, that's not a very big difference, just sn isdue of adjusting the timing if death that was coming for them anyways. Salvation (the restoration of life through relationship with Him) is a HUGE difference, and well worth the path to get there.

 

Also, the vast majority of the "firstborn of Egypt" would have been adult males. Firstborn son means that: anyone who was the oldest male child in their parents' family.

 

Plus, as mentioned, anyone not interested in testing God's ability to do what He said, was free avoid it simply by trusting Him and getting out of town.

 

And did anyone mention that Egypt started the son-killing plan much sooner? Sometimes justice involves an element of doing to "you" what "you" have chosen for others.