How do you have peace with this in your mind?

[mommyx4]

I was watching a special on t.v. the other day about the beginning times in the Bible and one part showed the Passover. I had forgotten about it, but the show really brought it back to my mind. I haven't been to church in several months because of some spiritual issues and now this has been on my mind. How could God kill all of those children? All children are innocent, why were they the ones punished? I know the parents and pharoah were punished, but I just can't get past the killing of all the first borns...I would really love some thoughts on what you think. How can a merciful and loving God do that?

[Dory]

I don't have an answer for you but I thought I would mention that firstborn doesn't mean all children. My husband is a firstborn.

[TracyP]

FWIW, I really, really struggle with this stuff. I define "this stuff" as a huge chunk of the OT.

 

My dd was 6 (I think) when we read about David's son being killed as punishment for his affair with Bathsheeba. She asked why God killed the baby when David was the sinner. I had never thought about that, so it took me off guard. The way I look at it is that death is not always a punishment. The babies in both these situations didn't suffer, it was the survivors who suffered. It is not a perfect answer, but that is the how I can have peace with it.

[TXMomof4]

FWIW, I really, really struggle with this stuff. I define "this stuff" as a huge chunk of the OT.

 

My dd was 6 (I think) when we read about David's son being killed as punishment for his affair with Bathsheeba. She asked why God killed the baby when David was the sinner. I had never thought about that, so it took me off guard. The way I look at it is that death is not always a punishment. The babies in both these situations didn't suffer, it was the survivors who suffered. It is not a perfect answer, but that is the how I can have peace with it.

 

 

I agree. We had this discussion a lot when a friend lost a child in a freak accident. It was devastating to all of us. But when you look at it from an eternal perspective - it's horrible for the families, but that sweet baby is in heaven. As wonderful as this life can be, there is always sorrow and pain. That's a given. There is none of that with God. I hang on to that when I start to doubt.

[texasmama]

I have to mentally and clearly separate the Old and New Testament. Also, I have come to understand that God views death quite differently from the way we view it. The Bible is not for the faint of heart, for certain. I accept that there are many things I will never truly comprehend in this life...and was never really meant to.

[Night Elf]

I cannot personally reconcile such ideas. I'll admit it's one of the reasons I have such serious doubts about religion. Sad, but true.

[SJ.]

I cannot personally reconcile such ideas. I'll admit it's one of the reasons I have such serious doubts about religion. Sad, but true.

 

 

Me too. I am curious of the Jewish perspective on this topic.

[Melinda in VT]

I was watching a special on t.v. the other day about the beginning times in the Bible and one part showed the Passover. I had forgotten about it, but the show really brought it back to my mind. I haven't been to church in several months because of some spiritual issues and now this has been on my mind. How could God kill all of those children? All children are innocent, why were they the ones punished? I know the parents and pharoah were punished, but I just can't get past the killing of all the first borns...I would really love some thoughts on what you think. How can a merciful and loving God do that?

 

 

I don't believe God did kill all of those children. I also don't think he told the Israelites to slaughter all the inhabitants of the land of Canaan, either.

 

That's how I have peace with it. Any other option requires me to violate my sense of right and wrong or leaves me with a God who is not good.

[Zebra]

It's a good question. I wish I had a better answer for you, but I just choose to accept the fact that God is God. He's the creator of the universe, and whatever He does is right. As a human I don't understand a lot of things. But, I always look to the book of Job, particularly chapters 38-41 when I am struggling with something like this. God says some things like, "Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place?" And for me, it always feels like a reality check. I have never given orders to the morning, I have never shown the dawn its place. And that sort of takes my breath away when I think about it. God is the one in charge. I think this is just where having faith comes in. You choose to have faith in God.

 

I choose to not take Job as an allegory, and I choose to accept that God is the master of the universe. I also choose to accept all these things without completely understanding everything.

 

That's my personal take on it anyway.

[songsparrow]

I don't know if you believe that the stories recounted in the Bible are literally true, but if you are open to the possibility that they are not, it may make you feel better to know that there is no archaeological or other evidence to support the stories that the Israelites were ever enslaved in Egypt. Evidence indicates that the pyramids were built by relatively small crews of skilled laborers, not large contingents of unskilled slaves.

 

If viewed in this light, the question of the cruelty of God's depicted actions can be removed, and the stories can be examined for what purpose they were intended to serve, what values they were intended to teach. In this story, it is the Pharoah who first orders that all Hebrew baby boys be killed (at the time of Moses' birth), and it is that decree that ironically leads to all that follows, including this same terrible consequence reflected back on the Pharoah.

[Mom-ninja.]

I don't struggle anymore with religious dilemas. I'm am atheist. The world makes so much more sense now.

[laundrycrisis]

I realize, yes, that you probably were only wanting answers from Christians. But I'm going to add mine anyway. This question you have asked is one of the reasons I left the Christian faith. Even as a 3-yo in Sunday school, I had issues with the ideas of God that are described in th OT. I remember being very young and thinking to myself quite clearly that these stories were absolutely awful, and that I didn't believe for a minute that they represented God at all, and that I would never believe in a God like that. And I didn't. Through all my Christian years, I privately stayed close to my own truth, as I experienced it. At times I tried very hard to believe what the Christian religion was teaching about God. I even attended fundamentalist churches for a few years. I finally just gave it all up. It was crystal clear to me that these stories of "God" did not in any way align with my own experiences of divinity. I chose to go with what resonated with my own inner truth and experiences, and nothing else. I left the religion and all of its stories behind.

 

I did not leave my faith. I unhitched it from a weight that had been holding it down - the need to fit into a structured religion. I let it feed itself on the natural beauty and kindness that it craved. I let it grow organically, without interference from thoughts of guilt or rules based on other people's ideas. It grew wings. It became much bigger than my experience of any human religion.

 

I don't know what to call myself - I gave that up when I left religion. I'm not a Christian in the sense of a person who really believes any of those stories, or finds any divine wisdom, truth, beauty, or anything in them. I just don't. I'm not an atheist in the sense of a person who has given up on all supernatural belief, at all. I just am. I experience, I am open, I am grateful, and I grow. That's it.

 

I shared this because I want to give you an alternative to the idea that your current religion will produce some great answer to this question if you just dig deep enough, try hard enough, or find the right wise person or gifted teacher to explain your conflict away. That may happen, or it may not. If it doesn't, and you experience a gigantic internal shift because of it, that's okay. People get to the other side of that without ending up feeling miserable or lost.

[Random]

I was watching a special on t.v. the other day about the beginning times in the Bible and one part showed the Passover. I had forgotten about it, but the show really brought it back to my mind. I haven't been to church in several months because of some spiritual issues and now this has been on my mind. How could God kill all of those children? All children are innocent, why were they the ones punished? I know the parents and pharoah were punished, but I just can't get past the killing of all the first borns...I would really love some thoughts on what you think. How can a merciful and loving God do that?

 

 

 

There are already many interesting replies, but I'd like to add that God gave the Egyptians many, many, MANY warnings, over a very long period of time.

 

Also, it's important to be highly analytical and critical (in the sense of discerning what is actually in the Bible and what is opinion) when learning anything about God or the Bible from a TV show.

 

Best wishes to you as you grow in your faith.

[Anne in CA]

I just wanted to say that this has never been a stumbling block for me for the simple reason that God is Holy. That means there is nothing bad in Him. I am not holy (except by the blood of Jesus Christ) and so things that God does (or allows to happen) that seem wrong or unfair, are not really wrong or unfair, my thinking is not perfected at this time. I hope that makes sense to someone in the cyber world, lol. I am not trying to preach, just to say what I believe.

 

It would be impossible for me to be an atheist, because I see evidence of creation everywhere I look. Not believing in God would cause my brain more spin than believing He (although I really believe God has no actual se% and only use the pronoun He because I like pronouns) is good and ultimately He will make all things right. I could not look around the Earth and believe that things like trees and rocks are a cosmic accident, much less people. I can believe that if God created people in the first place and knows the stars by name he has a plan bigger than my mind can grasp when some people die seemingly just to make a point to Pharaoh or any other time. Sometimes living life is not a kind option for some people and they go on living, that is also hard to understand, but I trust that God does have a bigger plan. I do see lots of evidence that God has a bigger plan, that is not blind faith, that is the substance of things hoped for. I see small signs that cannot be ignored and I hold onto a bigger picture that I cannot see even though I do not trust all church leaders and theologians to have a good outline of what God is really doing.

 

I hope some of what I said made sense, ironically I am getting ready for church. My church is not perfect, but there is lots of evidence that God has a bigger plan for the church and I am excited to be a tiny, tiny part.

[I.Dup.]

Keep in mind that as Christians, we are looking forward to eternity, not just this life. I believe all of the children were taken straight to heaven, which is actually a gift for them. This world is way harder than heaven will be (I hope!) ;)

[Remudamom]

I'm going to make it even worse and ask you what makes you think all the children go to heaven?

[I.Dup.]

I'm going to make it even worse and ask you what makes you think all the children go to heaven?

 

It's something I have to believe for myself. I'm sure there are Bible verses about it and teachings in the Catechism. But I believe God has mercy and is full of love.

 

I admit I have a hard time reconciling the OT God with the NT Jesus and it has caused me pain and turmoil.

[annandatje]

I don't struggle anymore with religious dilemas. I'm am atheist. The world makes so much more sense now.

 

Same here except that I was born a natural atheist. It would be harder for me too to reconcile worldly happenings if I was convinced of existence of an all-knowing all-powerful deity. I do believe that some people are born unable to give themselves over to magical thinking even if they ever desired to do so.

 

OP, have you read some of the better-written Christian apologetics books? They may provide reassurance and comfort to you. However, they often "explain" away the violence by a nonliteral interpretation of passage or by stating that passage meant something less offensive in its ancient original language.

[Remudamom]

I too believe that God is merciful and loving. But if Jesus died for everyone then he failed, because there are people in hell.

 

I have a hard time reconciling many things. In the end I believe God knows better than I do. It's hard sometimes.

[I.Dup.]

I too believe that God is merciful and loving. But if Jesus died for everyone then he failed, because there are people in hell.

 

 

We have to choose. If His sacrifice forced anything on us, it wouldn't be love. We would be robots. Choice has been a huge part of the equation since the very beginning. He wants a relationship with us, not for us to be puppets.

[violamama]

Augustine makes the following statement in his Enchiridion, Ch. 100:

'In a way unspeakably strange and wonderful, even what is done in opposition to God's will [of desire] does not defeat his will [of decree]. For it would not be done did he not permit it, and of course his permission is not unwilling, but willing; nor would a Good Being permit evil to be done except that in his omnipotence he can turn evil into good'.

 

You can read more here: http://www.oldtruth.com/calvinism/shedd.html

 

It is not easy. Clinging to the nature of God while being denied complete understanding of the events in the world or the Bible is difficult. It helps me to keep in mind that any suffering I might feel over compassion for the victims is felt first and most deeply by their creator. I find that reading continually and choosing commentaries well is really helpful. Rejecting God because he doesn't work the way I assume he should is illogical. It makes me God. Tempting, but ultimately illogical.

 

The old testament is full of Jesus- many types and analogies and precursors of Him. I don't see it as broken from the NT, though his atonement does free us from dependence on the Law.

 

For the question of children going to heaven, you might listen to any of the stuff linked from here:

http://www.monergism.com/

 

But more than that, I hear you. It is hard to thank God for that painful compassion and mourn with those who mourn. It's unfathomable that the things that happen will be turned to God's purposes and that it will be good. No glib or pat answer should satisfy you here, but I do hope you continue to be drawn to a clear-eyed desire for truth.

[TranquilMind]

 

I don't believe God did kill all of those children. I also don't think he told the Israelites to slaughter all the inhabitants of the land of Canaan, either.

 

That's how I have peace with it. Any other option requires me to violate my sense of right and wrong or leaves me with a God who is not good.

 

There were 10 plagues, brought about because the Egyptians refused to do the right thing and let their slaves go. The Egyptians could have stopped the plagues they were warned in advance about at any point, including before the first plague, had they listened to Moses.

 

If you are warned that something specific will happen if you refuse to let the people you have enslaved, beaten, and mistreated go, and you refuse, you shouldn't be surprised when it happens. In this case, 9 refusals happened before this happened. Pharaoh should have listened especially since he knew that the God of Israel was God by this time.

 

How many times the innocent suffer because of the refusal of someone (not even them) to obey God (and Pharaoh knew it was God, by this time, if you read the account).

[BugsMama]

I struggled with this too.... not to mention the flood- how many were killed there, if you believe it literally? Can you imagine the pain and horror of all the men, women, children and animals on earth drowning? (and to think, people decorate nurseries with a noah's arc theme)

 

I can't prescribe to those beliefs anymore. It's too hard for me.

 

Many of my friends have found peace in apologetics- I hope you find something that brings you peace as well.

[violamama]

Can you imagine the pain and horror of all the men, women, children and animals on earth drowning? (and to think, people decorate nurseries with a noah's arc theme)

 

 

Dare I inject humor?

[BugsMama]

 

Dare I inject humor?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVxRddVYYig&feature=player_embedded

 

LOL! He gets me! Seriously- AWANA had a Noah's Arc themed trunk or treat... and all I could think about is how messed up it is that people thought it was cute. At least they had it on the right night, I seriously contemplated going as a drowning victim..... I may be a terrible person.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

 

There were 10 plagues, brought about because the Egyptians refused to do the right thing and let their slaves go. The Egyptians could have stopped the plagues they were warned in advance about at any point, including before the first plague, had they listened to Moses.

 

If you are warned that something specific will happen if you refuse to let the people you have enslaved, beaten, and mistreated go, and you refuse, you shouldn't be surprised when it happens. In this case, 9 refusals happened before this happened. Pharaoh should have listened especially since he knew that the God of Israel was God by this time.

 

How many times the innocent suffer because of the refusal of someone (not even them) to obey God (and Pharaoh knew it was God, by this time, if you read the account).

 

Really? Doesn't scripture say God hardened Pharaoh's heart?

And how could the Egyptians let the Israelites go when all power rested solely with the Pharaoh? Doesn't God also direct us to obey our rulers? What is the justification for a lowly Egyptian peasant to lose their child when they had no say in the matter?

[violamama]

 

LOL! He gets me! Seriously- AWANA had a Noah's Arc themed trunk or treat... and all I could think about is how messed up it is that people thought it was cute. At least they had it on the right night, I seriously contemplated going as a drowning victim..... I may be a terrible person.

 

THAT is the exact kind of terrible I always hope to sit next to...

[Critterfixer]

May I respectfully suggest to the OP that she speak to her church authority on the matter? I do believe that we are directed to seek authority when it comes to understanding the things that are difficult to understand. I don't think I would seek medical advice from a mechanic; my goodness, if I was seeking advice for something of serious implications I'm not even sure I'd talk to just any doctor! Spiritual questions are not that different. Speak to your spiritual leaders when it comes to matters that leave you in doubt of the goodness of God.

 

I'm not as spiritual as I'd like to be, but I know that if I'm looking for advice on a spiritual matter I'd better seek out a person who has studied, confronted, wrestled with the mysteries of the Bible for years. It's not something to do on your own or at random. Just my two cents on the matter.

[Freckles]

I wish we could sit face to face over a cup of tea and discuss our thoughts on these issues because I can't type all of them. My views won't be popular. In a nutshell God is God he is not only loving, but he is also just and a jealous God. I also believe in total depravity, and I come from a Calvanistic viewpoint. I grew up with an Armenian view of salvation, but I no longer feel It's my job to turn someone's heart towards God. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. To answer the OP's question. My very simple answer on this is because death is not the end point of our existence. I don't claim to have the answers these are just a few of my thoughts.

[TranquilMind]

Really? Doesn't scripture say God hardened Pharaoh's heart?

And how could the Egyptians let the Israelites go when all power rested solely with the Pharaoh? Doesn't God also direct us to obey our rulers? What is the justification for a lowly Egyptian peasant to lose their child when they had no say in the matter?

 

Mine reads Pharoah hardened his heart, or Pharoah's heart was hardened.

 

I'm not defending it. I'm just saying that Moses told them nine times that bad things were going to happen if he didn't let them go and he didn't listen. He didn't believe Moses and there were consequences to that.

[TranquilMind]

LOL! He gets me! Seriously- AWANA had a Noah's Arc themed trunk or treat... and all I could think about is how messed up it is that people thought it was cute. At least they had it on the right night, I seriously contemplated going as a drowning victim..... I may be a terrible person.

 

Tim Hawkins is hilarious. We watched a couple of his videos at a friend's house a few weeks ago, and all of us, from the 11 year old to...well, me (the old one) were laughing until we had tears in our eyes.

[TranquilMind]

double post

[mommyx4]

Thank you all for your responses. It's given me some more to think about, but it's so hard to figure out. In mentioning the flood, that's another event that I just can't get over. If I were there and told my child to stand by me instead of going onto the arc, my child would obey me and in turn suffer and die. Or little infants that have no say in the matter and they just died...I just don't get it. Why is this even in the Bible? If God wants us to draw closer to him, why would he place such events that caused us so much question?

[Critterfixer]

If God wants us to draw closer to him, why would he place such events that caused us so much question?

 

Again, I'd talk with your spiritual leader.

And I don't know. But I might share something that happened to me when I was very young that I think I must be supposed to ponder until I die.

 

I was around six years old when a four year old child that I knew died. She was the daughter of a very close friend of the family and was suffering a good deal with leukemia. I'm sure that a lot of questions were being asked by her parents, my parents. Of course I was far too young to be anything but fascinated. I remember a particularly intense memory of the room where she was lying, little more than a very pale ghost by that time. The sun was coming through thin curtains and very, very suddenly she was absolutely sun-lit. It was as if she were a glass filled with light and I had a sudden thought of angels.

Did she have to die so that I would forever have a glimpse of the mystery of death and the places beyond? Was there another way that my attention could have been arrested? I don't know. I only know that my attention was very, very fixed at that time and place and I have never forgotten it.

 

I don't know the answers to your questions, but I do know that the beginning of a search for truth is asking questions. Simply by asking, wondering and trying to find the answers we do draw nearer to God. At least, that's the way I see it.

[texasmama]

I admit I have a hard time reconciling the OT God with the NT Jesus and it has caused me pain and turmoil.

 

Even in my darkest spiritual times, I knew that Jesus loved, healed and came to help, even while I directed my anger and outrage at God. (He can take it. Better folks than I have been angry at Him. ;) ) Once I recall praying to Jesus and telling him that I was really, really angry at his Daddy! Mostly, I've accepted that I will not know or understand everything. In fact, I do not know or understand much of anything, really. But my seeking and my heart and soul always lead me back to God. For better or worse, He and I are in this deal together.

[texasmama]

double post

[Trish]

I was watching a special on t.v. the other day about the beginning times in the Bible and one part showed the Passover. I had forgotten about it, but the show really brought it back to my mind. I haven't been to church in several months because of some spiritual issues and now this has been on my mind. How could God kill all of those children? All children are innocent, why were they the ones punished? I know the parents and pharoah were punished, but I just can't get past the killing of all the first borns...I would really love some thoughts on what you think. How can a merciful and loving God do that?

 

 

We tend to view a nice long, comfortable life on earth as merciful. Whereas in the case of these Egyptian kids who died, they would be in heaven now, and their counterparts who lived, who knows?

 

Plus, you can ask this question anytime something bad happens to anyone. We live in a world that is the result of Original Sin. So, we have viruses, earthquakes, bad weather and bad neighbors...

[PinkInTheBlue]

I spent years trying to reconcile a loving, fatherlike god to the stories in the Bible and just reached a point I no longer could. There can't be one and the other in one being.

[swimmermom3]

I realize, yes, that you probably were only wanting answers from Christians. But I'm going to add mine anyway. This question you have asked is one of the reasons I left the Christian faith. Even as a 3-yo in Sunday school, I had issues with the ideas of God that are described in th OT. I remember being very young and thinking to myself quite clearly that these stories were absolutely awful, and that I didn't believe for a minute that they represented God at all, and that I would never believe in a God like that. And I didn't. Through all my Christian years, I privately stayed close to my own truth, as I experienced it. At times I tried very hard to believe what the Christian religion was teaching about God. I even attended fundamentalist churches for a few years. I finally just gave it all up. It was crystal clear to me that these stories of "God" did not in any way align with my own experiences of divinity. I chose to go with what resonated with my own inner truth and experiences, and nothing else. I left the religion and all of its stories behind.

 

I did not leave my faith. I unhitched it from a weight that had been holding it down - the need to fit into a structured religion. I let it feed itself on the natural beauty and kindness that it craved. I let it grow organically, without interference from thoughts of guilt or rules based on other people's ideas. It grew wings. It became much bigger than my experience of any human religion.

 

I don't know what to call myself - I gave that up when I left religion. I'm not a Christian in the sense of a person who really believes any of those stories, or finds any divine wisdom, truth, beauty, or anything in them. I just don't. I'm not an atheist in the sense of a person who has given up on all supernatural belief, at all. I just am. I experience, I am open, I am grateful, and I grow. That's it.

 

I shared this because I want to give you an alternative to the idea that your current religion will produce some great answer to this question if you just dig deep enough, try hard enough, or find the right wise person or gifted teacher to explain your conflict away. That may happen, or it may not. If it doesn't, and you experience a gigantic internal shift because of it, that's okay. People get to the other side of that without ending up feeling miserable or lost.

 

 

Thank you for sharing this. It's lovely and it articulates in ways that I can not, my own experience. When I began to define a spiritual life in ways that I could understand, the world became more beautiful and merciful.

[nmoira]

Whereas in the case of these Egyptian kids who died, they would be in heaven now

...

 

What is the Biblical basis for this?

[Mergath]

Having people try to tell me that God- however you see him/her/what have you- would do things like this is one of the reasons I eventually left Christianity. (There were others, but I won't go into those here.) I just don't see how you can reconcile the idea of God as just and benevolent and loving with the murderous, angry God depicted in the OT.

 

However, having recently read the book Misquoting Jesus gave me another (well, actually several) perspectives on it all. One thing that I found fascinating was the belief apparently held by some Christian groups long ago that the God of the OT and the God of the NT were two separate beings, and that the NT God sent Jesus to save everyone from the wrathful OT God. (So don't feel bad, because it seems that people have had trouble reconciling the two versions of God for over a thousand years now.) And then there are all the errors/changes/additions/omissions made by scribes over history.

 

I'm still not a Christian by any means, but reading Misquoting Jesus gave me a new perspective on a lot of what's in there.

[laundrycrisis]

 

I'm still not a Christian by any means, but reading Misquoting Jesus gave me a new perspective on a lot of what's in there.

 

 

I have not read this one, but I read another by the same author - "Jesus, Interruped", and I found it very helpful. I also read a few books by different authors in the same subject area, and all of this helped me process some things I had felt stuck on. I found it very liberating to face my questions and dig around in them a bit.

[Izzy]

I haven't read all of the responses but I don't take the bible literally. Christians have done evil things all throughout history because "God told them to" but I think it's just a way to justify their actions. I believe the Old Testament is the same thing. People did bad things or bad things happened and they attributed it to God. The same thing goes on today. If good things happen to people it's because God was on their side or blessed them. A lot of hatred is justified by using the bible or God as an excuse. I believe people were the same back then as today and used God to justify these things.

 

I'm sort of in the same place spiritually and have been for the past couple of years. I can say I've come a long way and am getting closer to seeing God in a loving way. A lot of that has been from taking people and religion out of the equation and just looking at the person God sent to show his love: Jesus. He didn't send people or rules to represent him or even the OT. He sent one person, Jesus, who is love.

 

[Izzy]

I don't struggle anymore with religious dilemas. I'm am atheist. The world makes so much more sense now.

 

 

Did you used to be a Christian? I'm asking because I grew up Christian but I would describe myself as Agnostic now but at the same time it's very hard to let go of beliefs I was raised with. But the world makes so much more sense since letting go of the bible and of religion. It's sad to say but I deleted quite a few people from my FB who were hateful and they were all Christians who use the Bible and God as excuses for their hatred.

 

Anyways, I guess I'm just asking how you got from Christian to Athiest because I feel like I'm getting there myself.

[dangermom]

We see children's deaths as unremittingly tragic. I don't think God sees it that way. And children have died throughout history--we live in an unusual age, where a child's death is an unusual and awful event, but until pretty recently (and still today, in many parts of the world), a child's death was an awful but common event.

 

My church's doctrine tells me that little children are alive in Christ, so yes, they go directly to be with God. They are OK. It's those of us who live in this difficult world, left behind, who feel it as a tragedy. And believe me I do feel it that way! But they are in heaven--taken home sooner than some of us--but they are home.

[MercyA]

I'm going to make it even worse and ask you what makes you think all the children go to heaven?

 

 

"And he [David] said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." 2 Samuel 12:22-23

[PinkInTheBlue]

I realize, yes, that you probably were only wanting answers from Christians. But I'm going to add mine anyway. This question you have asked is one of the reasons I left the Christian faith. Even as a 3-yo in Sunday school, I had issues with the ideas of God that are described in th OT. I remember being very young and thinking to myself quite clearly that these stories were absolutely awful, and that I didn't believe for a minute that they represented God at all, and that I would never believe in a God like that. And I didn't. Through all my Christian years, I privately stayed close to my own truth, as I experienced it. At times I tried very hard to believe what the Christian religion was teaching about God. I even attended fundamentalist churches for a few years. I finally just gave it all up. It was crystal clear to me that these stories of "God" did not in any way align with my own experiences of divinity. I chose to go with what resonated with my own inner truth and experiences, and nothing else. I left the religion and all of its stories behind.

 

I did not leave my faith. I unhitched it from a weight that had been holding it down - the need to fit into a structured religion. I let it feed itself on the natural beauty and kindness that it craved. I let it grow organically, without interference from thoughts of guilt or rules based on other people's ideas. It grew wings. It became much bigger than my experience of any human religion.

 

I don't know what to call myself - I gave that up when I left religion. I'm not a Christian in the sense of a person who really believes any of those stories, or finds any divine wisdom, truth, beauty, or anything in them. I just don't. I'm not an atheist in the sense of a person who has given up on all supernatural belief, at all. I just am. I experience, I am open, I am grateful, and I grow. That's it.

 

I shared this because I want to give you an alternative to the idea that your current religion will produce some great answer to this question if you just dig deep enough, try hard enough, or find the right wise person or gifted teacher to explain your conflict away. That may happen, or it may not. If it doesn't, and you experience a gigantic internal shift because of it, that's okay. People get to the other side of that without ending up feeling miserable or lost.

 

 

Thank you! You put into words exactly what I would say to even attempt to describe myself. Wow! I'm going to have to copy this just so I can explain it to myself when I think about "coming out" to my extended family. :) Well put!

[I.Dup.]

I don't know what to call myself - I gave that up when I left religion. I'm not a Christian in the sense of a person who really believes any of those stories, or finds any divine wisdom, truth, beauty, or anything in them. I just don't. I'm not an atheist in the sense of a person who has given up on all supernatural belief, at all. I just am. I experience, I am open, I am grateful, and I grow. That's it.

 

I shared this because I want to give you an alternative to the idea that your current religion will produce some great answer to this question if you just dig deep enough, try hard enough, or find the right wise person or gifted teacher to explain your conflict away. That may happen, or it may not. If it doesn't, and you experience a gigantic internal shift because of it, that's okay. People get to the other side of that without ending up feeling miserable or lost.

 

 

 

I am interested in what you are saying. By the bolded, does that mean you don't believe Jesus came to earth or died, or is the son of God, or...? are you talking about the OT stories or the Bible/Christianity in general?

 

I cannot deny Jesus/God, I just can't. But I have had very personal experiences with Jesus or the Heavenly Father, I'm not sure which one, and I know that helps my faith. But I can relate to a lot of what you wrote.

 

I think it is important to separate our own relationship with the Divine from a building or a church group.

[Paula in MS]

I believe that God is loving and just. The thing is, no matter if he is loving and just or angry and violent doesn't determine whether He is God or not...or whether He is deserving to be God. He is God because He is. We are His creation; who are we to judge what He does? He can do as he pleases. Are some of the actions in the Bible hard to swallow? Yes, they are, but there is no way I'm going to sit in judgement of God and say, "He shouldn't have done that. ". What do I know? I have only a small glimpse of the situation when He can see eternity.

[Izzy]

I realize, yes, that you probably were only wanting answers from Christians. But I'm going to add mine anyway. This question you have asked is one of the reasons I left the Christian faith. Even as a 3-yo in Sunday school, I had issues with the ideas of God that are described in th OT. I remember being very young and thinking to myself quite clearly that these stories were absolutely awful, and that I didn't believe for a minute that they represented God at all, and that I would never believe in a God like that. And I didn't. Through all my Christian years, I privately stayed close to my own truth, as I experienced it. At times I tried very hard to believe what the Christian religion was teaching about God. I even attended fundamentalist churches for a few years. I finally just gave it all up. It was crystal clear to me that these stories of "God" did not in any way align with my own experiences of divinity. I chose to go with what resonated with my own inner truth and experiences, and nothing else. I left the religion and all of its stories behind.

 

I did not leave my faith. I unhitched it from a weight that had been holding it down - the need to fit into a structured religion. I let it feed itself on the natural beauty and kindness that it craved. I let it grow organically, without interference from thoughts of guilt or rules based on other people's ideas. It grew wings. It became much bigger than my experience of any human religion.

 

I don't know what to call myself - I gave that up when I left religion. I'm not a Christian in the sense of a person who really believes any of those stories, or finds any divine wisdom, truth, beauty, or anything in them. I just don't. I'm not an atheist in the sense of a person who has given up on all supernatural belief, at all. I just am. I experience, I am open, I am grateful, and I grow. That's it.

 

I shared this because I want to give you an alternative to the idea that your current religion will produce some great answer to this question if you just dig deep enough, try hard enough, or find the right wise person or gifted teacher to explain your conflict away. That may happen, or it may not. If it doesn't, and you experience a gigantic internal shift because of it, that's okay. People get to the other side of that without ending up feeling miserable or lost.

 

You just summed up everything I've been going through for the past few years. Even down to trying so hard to be Christian. I actually have spent the last few years researching different denominations to find one that I can fit into or believe but there just isn't one. It's just me trying to make myself fit into religion and it's very uncomfortable. The truth is, I'm a better person when not connected to a religion and after walking away I feel like myself and less brainwashed. But it's so hard to give myself permission to do that. Kwim? Your story gives me hope. :)

 

I can't bear to teach my kids the OT stories so I don't. My 7 year old is still scared from one story he learned about no one ever seeing God because we would die if we did. It's been a year and he still asks me questions about that. There's no way he could handle the more traumatic ones.

It baffles me that so much curriculum geared towards young kids is based on the OT.