Melissa in Australia Posted December 30, 2012 Author Share Posted December 30, 2012 double post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted December 30, 2012 Author Share Posted December 30, 2012 I am sorry you took my comments the wrong way and that I offended you. It was not my intent. I am perfectly aware that many children put up for adoption are legitimately relinquished, But I was trying to point out that child trafficking is a huge problem in International adoption, so much so that many countries are trying to halt international adoption altogether. It is not just Russia that has called a halt to international adoption to America. We have had many many documentaries here in Australia exposing the child-stealing in international adoption that is taking place. As for fertility doctors. there are paying fees and there are outright buying of children. Have you heard about the complete abuse that is happening with surrogate mothers in India? Most definitely buying babies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merry gardens Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Such as... Did you ever read or hear any news about an American woman who adopted a Russian child and then later sent the 7 yo boy back to Russia, all alone on a plane, because she no longer wanted him? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1264744/American-sends-adopted-Russian-boy-behavioural-problems.html I know some families who adopted from Russia and other foreign countries and they are wonderful, generous people. Most people would never even think about doing anything like that to a child. But after that event, I believe the Russian government was within its right to re-examine their adoption laws. (edited to post the right link) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenncslp Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I haven't even read through all the quotes because it was so upsetting to see such a lack of empathy by some. Do you understand that these children are being given a death sentence because of this? That sweet, innocent children like my daughter, born with extra chromosomes would be basically tied to a crib and starved for her life? That is the truth of the matter. The Russians don't want their children with special needs...and thankfully we were able to help them before this. Yes, you hear about the few bad adoptions...but what about the thousands upon thousands of good ones, where the child was given a chance to live, grow, thrive, learn? This is a HUGE deal, because it's about LIVES!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparrow Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 The Russian adoption ban has brought out some real winners on Facebook. I had to fire off a message to a local business woman explaining why I would not be darkening the doorway of her little shop again. It seems she felt it was important to comment on a local newscast's article about the ban that "lets take care of Our children in Our country". Yeah, me and my mismatched family feel pretty welcome in your store now. Do you talk about what a shame it is that my kids are "foreign" when we leave? I made my message short and sweet and even offered to answer any questions she might have about adoption. I let her know, that in my opinion, ALL children deserve the love of a family. I haven't heard back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I swear, I'll never understand ppl. How does how someone chooses to build their family have anything to do w/anyone else? Seriously?! If you choose to adopt domestically, great. Adopt internationally, great. Able to, and choose to reproduce, great. I don't know why anyone thinks it's any of their flipping business what other families do. I've been criticized for choosing to birth 5 children...I've been told that there are too many children w/out homes, I should be adopting them, not bringing more into the world. Can't wait til those folks find out #6 is on his/her way. Ugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Did you ever read or hear any news about an American woman who adopted a Russian child and then later sent the 7 yo boy back to Russia, all alone on a plane, because she no longer wanted him? http://www.independe...ad-8432820.html I know some families who adopted from Russia and other foreign countries and they are wonderful, generous people. Most people would never even think about doing anything like that to a child. But after that event, I believe the Russian government was within its right to re-examine their adoption laws. The article seems to be on Indian surrogates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jujsky Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Did you ever read or hear any news about an American woman who adopted a Russian child and then later sent the 7 yo boy back to Russia, all alone on a plane, because she no longer wanted him? http://www.independe...ad-8432820.html I know some families who adopted from Russia and other foreign countries and they are wonderful, generous people. Most people would never even think about doing anything like that to a child. But after that event, I believe the Russian government was within its right to re-examine their adoption laws. And while that story was horrible, let's evaluate that story a little deeper and pick away the layers the media has chosen to sensationalize. Let's also look at the aspects of adoption you may not be aware of. She didn't lose it and kill him. There could have been 20 dead Russian children in the last 20 years instead of 19. We look at those 19 other tragic cases and ask, "Why didn't they just leave the children somewhere if they didn't want them?" She did. Did she go about this the best way? Absolutely not, but that child is still alive. What were his issues? Of course the Russian government is saying he has no issues and he's a fine, healthy, normal little boy who only NOW has issues and trauma over this incident. I took one look at that kid's picture and said, "Fetal Alcohol Syndrome." He has some mild facial characteristics, and if the adoptive mother is to be believed, he was difficult to handle. I put the blame of this on the Russians. They need to set their pride aside, admit when these kids have problems, and be upfront about them to potential parents instead of pawning off ill children on unsuspecting parents. It's not fair to the parents, not fair to the child, and not fair to the child that could be a better fit that is languishing in an orphanage. The rest, I feel, are largely problems with our end of the system. Instead of being greedy for the money of another placement, the agency this woman went through should never have made that placement. They are responsible for making sure their people within the country are making placements that have the best chance of succeeding. There should be more transparency and there's not. People are lied to all the time and often pressured into taking kids they are not comfortable taking. We decided against one agency because when I asked, "What happens when I get to Russia, meet the child, and have a gut-feeling that something is off and the child won't be a good fit?" You'd think that would be a legitimate question, right? Especially considering after the adoption goes through, that child is legally mine for life. They were clearly uncomfortable answering and said, "You CAN refuse the placement, but if you do we can't guarantee when another placement would be available for you. It could take a year or more." BS -- adoptions were moving very quickly in Russia at the time. I was on adoption message boards at the time and heard many stories of people refusing placements in-country and getting matched up with another child before they returned home. They also told me that not feeling I could bond with the child was not a "legitimate reason" for refusing placement. Really? REALLY? That was a HUGE red flag for me. This agency was very much a "pay us, sit down, shut up, and don't ask real questions" type of place. Agencies like that need to be shut down because they don't care about making the right match -- they care about making money. This woman very well could have gone through an agency like that, and assumed that what they were telling her (if she even knew to ask the right questions) was the truth. The desire to have a child is also a very powerful thing. It's not unusual to go into an agency and push aside the things that don't feel right because that desire to parent overpowers everything else. I've heard many stories of difficult adoptions where the parents say, "What they told us at the agency didn't quite feel right, but....." I don't know this woman's religious affiliation, but another issue in adoption is religious agencies that refuse to adopt out to non-Christians. It was difficult for us to find an adoption agency that would even work with us because we weren't Christian. Apparently their view is children are better off being malnourished and understimulated in institutionalized settings than they are going to non-Christian homes. Yup -- let those brains atrophy because that's so much better than winding up with ebil non-believers! It's possible that her pickings for agencies were slim. We found a whopping 2 in our area that would work with us for a Russian adoption -- the horrible one I mentioned and the one we ultimately went with, which was a Christian agency, but they let non-Christians adopt. The biggest thing our country is doing to fail these children, as I said in another post, is lack of support. If this woman was struggling with her child, there should have been supports in place. There were not. I feel it should be mandatory for internationally adopted children to be evaluated by a pediatrician who specializes in adoption upon entering this country. There should be better mental health resources available, counseling, more mandatory scheduled visits with the social worker (and even MORE visits if there are issues with the adoption). Adoptive parents are for the most part left on their own. It's their kid -- now they can deal with it. Most of these parents aren't prepared for the issues they face. How can they be? If you trust the people you're dealing with and they tell you the child is fine, you believe them. If you don't know what RAD or FAS/E are and you're faced with a child who has one or both of these issues, how do you cope? If you're adopting an older child who has been in an institutionalized setting most of their life, you are dealing with a host of issues that could benefit from support. People often say that this woman should have given up the child and not sent him back on a plane. Many people are unaware that if you adopt and want to terminate the adoption it's extremely difficult. In most cases you are responsible for the child financially until they are permanently adopted, so you have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars/month in support. Some people keep these children because they financially cannot afford not to, even if they are violent or cannot bond. The way this woman handled things wasn't right, but it's entirely possible she felt sending him back was the best option out of a bunch of crappy ones. She was probably living a nightmare. There were two victims in this adoption: the child AND the woman who adopted him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merry gardens Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 The article seems to be on Indian surrogates. Sorry-- :o I meant to post a different link, but grabbed that one by mistake. Here's a link about the American woman who sent an adopted Russian child back to Russia: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1264744/American-sends-adopted-Russian-boy-behavioural-problems.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterflymommy Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Would you call paying a fertility doctor his/her fees "buying" a child? I would and don't see anything wrong with that. If I had to "buy" each of my kids with fertility treatments I would have done so gladly. But with fertility treatments there is less issue of the child being separated from his/ her birth/ bio parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterflymommy Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I swear, I'll never understand ppl. How does how someone chooses to build their family have anything to do w/anyone else? Seriously?! If you choose to adopt domestically, great. Adopt internationally, great. Able to, and choose to reproduce, great. I don't know why anyone thinks it's any of their flipping business what other families do. I've been criticized for choosing to birth 5 children...I've been told that there are too many children w/out homes, I should be adopting them, not bringing more into the world. Can't wait til those folks find out #6 is on his/her way. Ugh. I don't know if that is in reference to my wondering why parents who adopt older children internationally aren't open to adopting older children domestically. That was a curiosity question not a judgment. I'm just wondering since it's so much cheaper to adopt older kids from foster care vs. older kids from russia. Both groups have a very high risk of being troubled, both groups are older. At least with the domestic adoption you can meet the children more and spend more time with him/ her before the adoption is finalized. Maybe it's an issue of cutting off all ties with the birth family, which I can understand but perhaps is not best for the child. Maybe there are unspoken racial issues. I really don't know. the handful of adopted people I know who have no idea their birth family background have really struggled with it. A good movie about adoption is "Off and Running." Two moms adopt domestically and once child internationally. One of the children adopted domestically becomes fixated on knowing/ contacting her birthmom but is disappointed. She is alienated from her adoptive moms for a period but then comes around. It was interesting to watch the adoptive moms handle the situation. Another good movie about both domestic and international adoption is "My Flesh and Blood." that film too has a heart wrenching situation of a domestically adopted child trying to reconnect with his birthmother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 My response was in regard's to Sparrow's experience w/a shopowner in her area. I think the best answer as to why some folks adopt domestically, others internationally, has been said in this thread already. That's where their kids are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
violamama Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I'm just wondering since it's so much cheaper to adopt older kids from foster care vs. older kids from russia. Both groups have a very high risk of being troubled, both groups are older. I can tell you our reasoning is not as colored by cost as you might think, despite the fact that we have (so far) gone with domestic adoption. When we were deciding which route to go, we weighed the need of kids and some other factors. There are many many many times more kids waiting internationally, and someday i would love to look closer at Africa for us. I believe another posted has already said something about the search for "our specific" kid being a big motivator for adoptive families, and while for now we're drawn to the US, but it's definitely not about the cost. A good movie about adoption is "Off and Running." Two moms adopt domestically and once child internationally. One of the children adopted domestically becomes fixated on knowing/ contacting her birthmom but is disappointed. She is alienated from her adoptive moms for a period but then comes around. It was interesting to watch the adoptive moms handle the situation. Another good movie about both domestic and international adoption is "My Flesh and Blood." that film too has a heart wrenching situation of a domestically adopted child trying to reconnect with his birthmother. I've seen these movies, and they are about very intense situations. In Off and Running in particular, I wonder if that young woman might not have had issues with coming of age whether she was adopted or not. Once somebody is labeled adopted, every good and bad thing seems to be attributed to that one aspect of their life. Without diminishing the experiences of the people in these films, I have to say we know at least 8 people in real life who were adopted and have had exactly zero angst over their birthfamilies, let alone confusion over who their "parents" are. Historical adoption practices may have been awful, but things have changed. This makes for a much less interesting documentary. There are all kinds of experiences, and I've noticed that people tend to be drawn to anecdotes that support their own ideas- just like in other arenas. Talking about adoption in particular brings out the differences in people's world view, which I think does intensify the debates and makes it all feel more personal. The stakes are high for the children involved. For better or worse, I think we can agree there is need for adoption both domestic and international. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparrow Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I don't know if that is in reference to my wondering why parents who adopt older children internationally aren't open to adopting older children domestically. That was a curiosity question not a judgment. I'm just wondering since it's so much cheaper to adopt older kids from foster care vs. older kids from russia. Both groups have a very high risk of being troubled, both groups are older. At least with the domestic adoption you can meet the children more and spend more time with him/ her before the adoption is finalized. Maybe it's an issue of cutting off all ties with the birth family, which I can understand but perhaps is not best for the child. Maybe there are unspoken racial issues. I really don't know. the handful of adopted people I know who have no idea their birth family background have really struggled with it. A good movie about adoption is "Off and Running." Two moms adopt domestically and once child internationally. One of the children adopted domestically becomes fixated on knowing/ contacting her birthmom but is disappointed. She is alienated from her adoptive moms for a period but then comes around. It was interesting to watch the adoptive moms handle the situation. Another good movie about both domestic and international adoption is "My Flesh and Blood." that film too has a heart wrenching situation of a domestically adopted child trying to reconnect with his birthmother. As I commented on previously to you, most of us aren't bargain hunting when we decide to adopt. There's no "Hey, Blue Light Special on domestic Latinos in aisle 4! Let's adopt one!" Again, there is often serendipitous magic afoot in adoption. I'm contemplating a spin-off thread for adoption stories. I know I can't be the only one that has marveled at how time, dates, and crazy circumstances led us to our kids! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jujsky Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 As I commented on previously to you, most of us aren't bargain hunting when we decide to adopt. There's no "Hey, Blue Light Special on domestic Latinos in aisle 4! Let's adopt one!" Again, there is often serendipitous magic afoot in adoption. I'm contemplating a spin-off thread for adoption stories. I know I can't be the only one that has marveled at how time, dates, and crazy circumstances led us to our kids! Do it! Our kid was meant to be ours. We have one of those stories, Sparrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I would and don't see anything wrong with that. If I had to "buy" each of my kids with fertility treatments I would have done so gladly. But with fertility treatments there is less issue of the child being separated from his/ her birth/ bio parents. The phrase "buying a child" is offensive to those who have welcomed a child into their family via adoption or fertility treatments. A wealthy woman might "buy" a designer purse or pair of shoes. She does not "buy" a child. My aunt adopted two children from Colombia back in the '70's and while she is not wealthy by American standards, she is middle class (husband is a CPA, she is an English teacher) and therefore much wealthier than the bio moms. There is a possibility that the adoption paperwork for my cousins is not legitimate, though we have absolutely no way of knowing whether or not this is the case. Everyone certainly hopes that the story my aunt and uncle were told by the agency is the truth. If it isn't, then the blame goes to those who did something wrong, not to the adoptive family who believed the lies. Both my cousins have had good lives here in the U.S. and are college graduates, employed in decent-paying jobs, married, and have children of their own. My aunt and uncle love them to pieces, and so does the rest of the extended family. Despite the few sensationalized media stories, most adoptions have a happy ending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Upon learning of this ruling today, all five of my children sat and looked around the table at one another, and one spoke up saying, "But Mom...those kids...all those hundreds of thousands of kids...what will happen to them?". There was no answer, for we all already know what will happen to them. There are no adequate words...and you have no idea until you have seen it with your own eyes, or parented it. I don't belong in this thread but this... made me cry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 The phrase "buying a child" is offensive to those who have welcomed a child into their family via adoption or fertility treatments. A wealthy woman might "buy" a designer purse or pair of shoes. She does not "buy" a child. Yes, the idea of "buying a child" is offensive. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and that no one should ever bring it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Yes, the idea of "buying a child" is offensive. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and that no one should ever bring it up. Very true. I know someone who sold her baby to the highest bidder, no middle man involved. No, most adoptions don't happen like that, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zimom Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Yes, the idea of "buying a child" is offensive. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and that no one should ever bring it up. BUT IT IS NOT THE NORM. So it doesn't need to come up in EVERY adoption discussion. And I can guarantee you EVERY adoptive parent has heard at least once (personally myself, too many times to count), 'how much did your child cost?'.... often within earshot of your child. This discussion has morphed many different ways, but again, it gets back to the children. The children AND the families. The families that make the decision to adopt, and if they chose to go down this path, is their decision alone and should not be judged by anyone else. If you read nothing else: Post adoption there are such a lack of services, just as there are a lack of services for bio families for mental health issues. This deserves ten threads on its own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparrow Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Do it! Our kid was meant to be ours. We have one of those stories, Sparrow. I will, unless someone starts it in the meantime! :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted December 30, 2012 Author Share Posted December 30, 2012 never mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 BUT IT IS NOT THE NORM. So it doesn't need to come up in EVERY adoption discussion. And I can guarantee you EVERY adoptive parent has heard at least once (personally myself, too many times to count), 'how much did your child cost?'.... often within earshot of your child. No, it isn't the norm. But in a discussion about the finer points, ethics, and issues of international adoption, it's certainly relevant. Just because some people have been rude about it doesn't mean no one is ever allowed to talk about it again. And from what I've read over the last few years, it happens more than one would think, and a lot of adoptive parents aren't even aware at the time of the adoption that their child was essentially stolen or bought from the bio parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jujsky Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 This thread was not a every adoption thread. It was specifically about one country deciding to stop international adoption. IT was a discussion about why this might be happening. Of course families make their personal decisions why they adopt, and I really think it is often with the child's interest at heart. But other countries have the RIGHT to choose to halt international adoption of their children. Put the shoe on the other foot. What if there were countries like Russia and China adopting large amounts of American children. They could easily write up huge horror stories about children being abused in the American foster system? What if some of the children were then abused and killed? what if some of the agencies were using unscrupulous methods to get the children? First off, there ARE children being abused in the American foster system. I don't think anyone would deny that. Second, when we're talking about deaths of Russian adoptees, I'd again like to state that it was 19 out of 60,000 adoptions over a span of 20 years. Any death is one too many, but statistically we're not talking large numbers. I'm sure compared to the number of orphans who die in orphanages or children adopted by Russians who die each year, the numbers are miniscule in comparison. And again, agencies that work with Russia are NOT using unscrupulous methods to get the children (though there are definitely unscrupulous American agencies pushing through adoptions of unhealthy, mentally impaired Russian children and not being forthright with the potential parents). The children are already in the system and have to go through many hoops before they are made available to foreigners. They are first offered to family members, then have to be refused by potential Russian families a certain number of times (3 or 5, I believe) before they are even offered up for adoption to foreigners. These are generally not healthy kids. Most at the very least are malnourished and have developmental delays. These are not children who are bought and sold into the system. These are children who are willingly relinquished by their parents or children who are taken from their parents due to neglect and abuse. If they were going to sell kids in Russia to Americans, they would be healthy, gorgeous children. I don't understand why you keep bringing up this argument when it doesn't. happen. there. Yes, there are known cases of this happening in India and other countries, but Russia isn't one of them. If you want to start a thread about children being adopted who are not legally clear and free for adoption, please do, but it truly belongs someplace besides a thread about Russian adoptions. Does Russia have the right to do this? Obviously. They can do anything they want, even if it's pig-headed and immoral. If you believe that they are doing this because of these few cases of death and abuse, I've got a beautiful bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. They're using these deaths as a convenient excuse to put pressure on America, retaliate for the Magnitsky Act, and stir up anti-American sentiment (stirring up anti-American sentiment is a needed distraction to keep the people's focus off of the atrocities and human rights violations their own government is committing). There are plenty of people in Russia who see through it and know the truth. DH still keeps in contact with all of his friends in Russia. They all know what the government is doing is a big load of crap and are totally ashamed that their country is doing this. There are plenty of sheeple there who do believe that Americans are buying and selling children for organ donations, adopting just to murder children, and other atrocious things, but anyone who is intelligent and has half a brain doesn't believe the media hype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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