Pastoral Authority...does/should it have limits?

[Blueridge]

I am seeking opinions on this issue. Do you think that a church pastor should rightly (biblically) have authority over each and every thing concerning the church, where the final decisions come from him even when there is disagreement and causes discord among the other leaders? Or do you think that there should be a 'checks and balances' approach, where the pastor is accountable to other church leaders (and how could this respectful balance be achieved if the pastor does not believe this is proper)?

[Chris in VA]

Hmmm.

Well, in our parish, the Rector (head priest) is a member of the Vestry (elected board, like elders). But he has final say in a lot.

He chooses his own staff, including assistants. I honestly don't know what he isn't head of--every Vestry member has charge of a committee and they vote on a bunch of things. I 'm not sure if Dh has veto power or what.

 

He is definitely accountable to his Bishop, who is outside of the Rector's church and who is in charge of a group of churches, called a Diocese. And that Bishop is also accountable to someone.

[boscopup]

Hmmm... In my church, we always have more than one pastor. We call them elders, and they are separate from the preacher, who has no authority unless he is also appointed as an elder (our congregation has done that, but he is equal to the other two elders also appointed). The elders make decisions together. It isn't one person above others.

 

I personally would not attend a congregation that had only one elder.

[sassenach]

The church should be led by a group of pastor/elders, who make decisions together. The "lead" pastor is the first among equals, with no more authority, but often more vision than the others. Some people think everything should be congregational vote. While that's very American, it's not very biblical.

 

Without more details, it's hard to say anything more on the subject. I'm feeling a decent load of pastor's wife burnout right now, so it'll probably be best for me to leave it at that. These pastor threads usually devolve into pages of critism that I'm just not up for.

 

 

[Joanne]

I'm not a fan of the patriarchical model, hierarchy, or power and control. Heck, I am not even a believer anymore.

 

But I seem to remember that the "one anothers" in the NT carry a lot of *mutual* accountability, support, and encouragement. That seems like a Jesus-inspired structure. Contemporary Christian churches, in contrast, seem to host a man made one.

[fairfarmhand]

I believe in checks and balances. I've seen to many churches ruined by pastors abusing their authority.

 

However, the same group of people should not always run everything. In our church committee positions are rotated regularly to avoid the big head phenomenon.

 

Also, I believe that the Biblical model for pastors is a "servant leader" or a shepherd. These imply gentle, loving, service to the congregation. Not power trips or control freaks.

[Parrothead]

No. No one person should be in charge of everything. Someone does need the ability to have final say in the even of a tie though.

[*********]

Also, I believe that the Biblical model for pastors is a "servant leader" or a shepherd. These imply gentle, loving, service to the congregation. Not power trips or control freaks.

 

 

What she said.

 

Each fellowship ideally should be guarded by a plurality of elders. This is not what you see in many mainstream American churches, but it is what is modeled in the New Testament.

[ChristineW]

In my denomination, the elders have the vote.

[milovany]

Bishops appointed priests to lovingly serve their local congregation in the New Testament, so that's the model we believe in and are under as well. Everyone is under someone in Orthodoxy, though, and love and servanthood are ideal for all. While there is still one priest with final say as decisions are made at the local level, there's also a council of (parish) leaders who assist the pastor/priest in decision making. The priest is under the Bishop, like in NT times. The plurality of elders is through the priesthood in the ancient Orthodox understanding.

[Blueridge]

Thank you for sharing. We're seeing the handwriting on the wall, so to speak. The lack of grace and the pridefulness disguised as strong leadership is heartbreaking. Not sure that there is anything that can be done...things are what they are. It should not be this way! Everyone should all be equally valuable to the body of believers, because they are to the Lord.

[Slartibartfast]

I do believe there should be an elected group of leaders from the congregation who have the final say. Pastors often come and go but the church belongs to the congregation, not the pastor.

[milovany]

Thank you for sharing. We're seeing the handwriting on the wall, so to speak. The lack of grace and the pridefulness disguised as strong leadership is heartbreaking. Not sure that there is anything that can be done...things are what they are. It should not be this way! Everyone should all be equally valuable to the body of believers, because they are to the Lord.

 

I'm sorry.

[fairfarmhand]

I'm so sorry.

[elegantlion]

Thank you for sharing. We're seeing the handwriting on the wall, so to speak. The lack of grace and the pridefulness disguised as strong leadership is heartbreaking. Not sure that there is anything that can be done...things are what they are. It should not be this way! Everyone should all be equally valuable to the body of believers, because they are to the Lord.

 

I'm sorry. Yes, there should be checks and balances and accountability. I've seen the ugliness that can happen when there isn't. It ended up damaging the faith and trust of leadership in many people.

[Juniper]

Bishops appointed priests to lovingly serve their local congregation in the New Testament, so that's the model we believe in and are under as well. Everyone is under someone in Orthodoxy, though, and love and servanthood are ideal for all. While there is still one priest with final say as decisions are made at the local level, there's also a council of leaders who assist the pastor/priest in decision making. The priest is under the Bishop, like in NT times. The plurality of elders is through the priesthood in the ancient Orthodox understanding.

 

 

This is true, but it is a bit more complicated right? ;) One of the things we took into heavy account when converting was the historical precedent that the FINAL say actually resides with the EO laity itself. Granted this is only in extreme situations, but it ESTABLISHED precedent, meaning the Priests and Bishops are aware of it and it has to be taken into consideration. Also, I am unsure how much say my head Priest has in matters of staff and so forth. I appreciate the fact that the laity are aware of their power, but do not have to use it.

 

OP, originally I did not answer because of the "biblical" qualification. I was unsure if that meant "Bible only." From a Bible only perspective it is difficult to advocate anything other than a "plurality of elders" perspective. Eventually, I came to feel more comfortable with a Scriptural and historical Tradition approach. :)

[milovany]

This is true, but it is a bit more complicated right? ;) One of the things we took into heavy account when converting was the historical precedent that the FINAL say actually resides with the EO laity itself. Granted this is only in extreme situations, but it ESTABLISHED precedent, meaning the Priests and Bishops are aware of it and it has to be taken into consideration. Also, I am unsure how much say my head Priest has in matters of staff and so forth. I appreciate the fact that the laity are aware of their power, but do not have to use it.

 

OP, originally I did not answer because of the "biblical" qualification. I was unsure if that meant "Bible only." From a Bible only perspective it is difficult to advocate anything other than a "plurality of elders" perspective. Eventually, I came to feel more comfortable with a Scriptural and historical Tradition approach. :)

 

 

Absolutely. The priest's role as priest is very specific. For example, he leads the Divine Liturgy. A Deacon can't lead the Divine Liturgy. The priest performs the sacraments; the lay people don't do that (except in emergency/unusual situations). But I tried to convey with my statements "everyone is under someone" and "love and servanthood are ideal for all" that there's no place for heavy-handed rule by the priest. Thanks for continuing the thought on that this includes the laity and that the laity and the priesthood are in submission to each other.

 

I love watching this play out, and being a part of it, in real life.

 

ETA - I should add that the "council of leaders" I referred to, that the assists the priest, is a parish council -- local, lay people from the congregation. My husband and I are on that council, and the priest is always asking for input and ideas from us, and wants, values and uses that input.

[Susan in TN]

In our church (PCA), most decisions are made by the ruling elders; the pastor is one of them, but just one - "wisdom in a multitude of counselors." Some major issues are voted on by the entire congregation - hiring of a pastor, election of elders and deacons, purchase of property. One of the jobs of the elders is to insure that the pastor is remaining true to Biblical doctrine and practice.

 

The help of the denomination can be sought when a decision/action/teaching of the elders or pastor is being questioned. It adds an element safety for both the elders/pastor and the congregation.

[Abigail4476]

I am seeking opinions on this issue. Do you think that a church pastor should rightly (biblically) have authority over each and every thing concerning the church, where the final decisions come from him even when there is disagreement and causes discord among the other leaders? Or do you think that there should be a 'checks and balances' approach, where the pastor is accountable to other church leaders (and how could this respectful balance be achieved if the pastor does not believe this is proper)?

 

I do think that the saints should choose to respect the authority of the church leadership where they attend, but the Bible does place limits on that authority. Paul stated it the simplest: "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." That's quite a stipulation. Interestingly enough, Clarke's Commentary places that verse contextually with the previous chapter instead of chapter 11. The last verse of chapter 10 says, "Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved." That really should sum up the attitude of a good leader. The things they do and teach should never be for their own profit, but for the profit of others.

 

Later in Galatians 1:8-9, it was also stated that even if an "angel from heaven" preached another Gospel, the saints were not to listen.

 

In Acts 17:10-11, the Bereans were admired because (upon hearing preaching and teaching) they "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." In other words, they made sure the preaching/teaching lined up with scripture, with scripture having the final authority. We have a saying in our house: "Be a Berean." Scripture is the filter through which we sift doctrines and teachings.

 

Regarding accountability, our pastor consults with a board on everything, and brings very big decisions before the church. Accountability is very important and protects both the leadership and the saints. I wouldn't trust a leader who was unwilling to be accountable to others. The "my way or the highway" types are immature and narcissistic, both of which disqualifies a man for leadership. Titus 1:6-9 and I Timothy 3:1-13 list the qualifications for bishops, deacons and their wives, and one of those qualifications is that he have a "good report of them which are without." It seems rare these days, to find church leaders who are willing to keep themselves accountable to the secular community and make sure they have a good report even there.

 

Bottom line, it is scriptural for church leadership to be accountable to God, scripture, to the saints and even to the community. Even in a church where there is one pastor and no elders or associate leadership, the pastor is still directly accountable to the saints. That takes humility and a leader who lacks that humility lacks leadership qualifications, biblically speaking.

[Harriet Vane]

Power corrupts. 'Nuff said.

[besroma]

I believe in checks and balances. I've seen to many churches ruined by pastors abusing their authority.

 

Also, I believe that the Biblical model for pastors is a "servant leader" or a shepherd. These imply gentle, loving, service to the congregation. Not power trips or control freaks.

 

What she said. Each fellowship ideally should be guarded by a plurality of elders. This is not what you see in many mainstream American churches, but it is what is modeled in the New Testament.

 

I agree with these statements.

[chickenpatty]

 

 

What she said.

 

Each fellowship ideally should be guarded by a plurality of elders. This is not what you see in many mainstream American churches, but it is what is modeled in the New Testament.

 

 

We're part of a church like this now, and I am so grateful for it!

[mumto2]

I just wanted to say I am sorry. I read your op a while ago And decided to think about it before responding. I just came back to tell you to leave if uncomfortable with the situation. There are many great churches out there-- I have recently discovered. Also elder/deacon leadership does not prevent these problems--with a dominant personality you just end up with several"rubber stamps." If there is a book of order or church constitution you should consult it and see what it says. You have a much bigger problem if the book of order/constitution is not being followed.

 

:grouphug:

[fairfarmhand]

for the first time ever, I am part of a church with a true servant-pastor. Threads like this make me so thankful for our pastor. It seems that he acknowledges that our church is not HIS church. It is the Lord's church and he is simply a small part of it. Pastors who behave as if they own the church or are the key to the success of the church make me sick.

[milovany]

for the first time ever, I am part of a church with a true servant-pastor. Threads like this make me so thankful for our pastor. It seems that he acknowledges that our church is not HIS church. It is the Lord's church and he is simply a small part of it.

 

 

Same! It's such a true blessing. Every time we go to liturgy or any other service, I just have this deep sense of gratefulness well up within me. I love to see our priest, and to ask for/receive his blessing. Glory to God for all things. I do know, though, that if he was less wonderful than he is, it'd still be the church and we'd still be worshiping God in the way He designed. I love being part of a church that's not dependent on the personalities of people. You're right, it's a good thing.

[PeacefulChaos]

Do you think that a church pastor should rightly (biblically) have authority over each and every thing concerning the church,

No

where the final decisions come from him even when there is disagreement and causes discord among the other leaders?

Even bigger No

Or do you think that there should be a 'checks and balances' approach, where the pastor is accountable to other church leaders

At our church, there is a deacon board that holds the pastoral staff accountable. Nothing new is passed unless the board unanimously agrees on it. If the pastors want to do something, buy something, etc, they have to present it to the board first to get permission. Yearly, the membership also ratifies a budget for the year which is put together by the finance committee.

The board is also, technically, 'the boss' so to speak...they can ask for someone's resignation (though they haven't in our time here - it would be reserved for dire circumstances, obviously.)

(and how could this respectful balance be achieved if the pastor does not believe this is proper)?

I really have no answer to that one. I don't know why a pastor would think that he gets the final say in everything. I think that's actually pretty cult-ish, scary thinking, and I would run the other way. Does the rest of the church seem ok with it?

I will be honest, I don't believe that pastors should have so much authority that their congregation blindly follows them. I am of the belief that a congregation should always be aware of what the pastor is saying and preaching, so that they can consider it within themselves and with God to determine if they feel it is really right. We are each responsible for our own salvation, not the pastor.

Sorry, that was a tangent - just a little spin off regarding my opinions on the authority of the pastor. :)

[Juniper]

One thing to be aware of in any church where there is an image of accountability is if the Pastor has surrounded himself by elders or a board that are his personal "yes" men. I have seen it happen and once it does it is truly heartbreaking. :(

[Chris in VA]

I'm sorry for your situation, OP.

 

I will say one sweet thing in our hierarchical church--

 

All priests are first ordained as Deacons, from the Greek word meaning Servant. They stay deacons 6 months at least before becoming ordained priests.

And they never stop being deacons, even if they become Bishops, so they always remember they are servants of the Lord.

[Blueridge]

Everyone's comments have been wonderful! Thank you so much. I have agonized over this all year. We're staying (for now) because of some dear people who love the Lord and their church and want to serve selflessly. In the mean time, the church will continue to move uncomfortably toward the pastor's dreams and goals, unless we can find a way to set it on a more balanced, healthy course. Thank you again.

[TXMomof4]

In my denomination, the elders have the vote.

[TXMomof4]

Bah - double post.

[8circles]

No. I think this "final say" stuff is nonsense. The pastor works with the deacons & everything major is voted on, either by the deacon board, executive board, or congregation as a whole. The deacons cannot be "yes men" because they cannot be chosen by the pastor. They are nominated by a committee made up of representatives from each board (christian ed, trustee, deacon, etc) & then voted on by the congregation.

[Paintedlady]

Sounds like our last church, which we left. No one should have total control, IMO.

[Shamzanne]

I just stopped halfway through reading this post to write a note of gratitude to my Pastor. I am thankful he is a servant. Our church (not a mainstream one) has a one person veto on all issues. Any member of the church has a say in any situation and any member can veto any decision he or she cannot support. For 30 years this has actually worked. Our pastor couldn't go on a power trip without pretty much everyone in the church calling him on it!

[Shamzanne]

Double Post

[Reya]

Biblically, the elders run the church. The pastor is, at most, one of the elders.

[2boysmom]

No I don't.

I don't think a Pastor should have limitless authority nor should he/she desire it.

That's quite dangerous in fact, and a big fat red flag to me.

[mytwomonkeys]

we have always attended churches that had either a staff parish or leadership team, the pastor has never been the only voice.

[SpecialClassical]

One thing to be aware of in any church where there is an image of accountability is if the Pastor has surrounded himself by elders or a board that are his personal "yes" men. I have seen it happen and once it does it is truly heartbreaking. :(

 

 

This happened at our church of 16 years and it was so awful. The pastor turned out to be plagiarizing, lying, and manipulating in order to build his kingdom of people who adored him within our church. When he was exposed the elders and many members could not see the truth and the elders did not follow the biblical model of correction. Not only did the church fall apart, but the pastor claimed depression right up until he took on a new,bigger pastorate one state a way. Heartbreaking is a good word for the whole mess.

 

We now attend a church with a plurality of elders who are willing to obey scripture even when it is very difficult. I was worried about the possibility of the church being legalistic, but it is actually very grace filled. The balance of humility, grace, and truth is a beautiful thing to see.

[*********]

Biblically, the elders run the church. The pastor is, at most, one of the elders.

 

T.H.I.S.!!!!

[Onceuponatime]

Hmmm... In my church, we always have more than one pastor. We call them elders, and they are separate from the preacher, who has no authority unless he is also appointed as an elder (our congregation has done that, but he is equal to the other two elders also appointed). The elders make decisions together. It isn't one person above others.

 

I personally would not attend a congregation that had only one elder.

 

 

 

This is the way ours works too. The elders are the "pastors" the preacher is hired by the elders, the elders are elected by the members.

[milovany]

NM

 

Stunned by what happened in Connecticut. Not wanting to go into this.