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High school curriculum that is heavy on discussion?


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I was speaking with a friend who is struggling to get his 14yo to do his schoolwork. They moved several months ago. The boy started at his local school in Sept but it didn't go well (I have no idea of the particulars), and they pulled him out shortly after he started. They've been trying to get him to do British GCSE work, but he doesn't like it and says he wants to do American style schoolwork. I offered to have them over to see what my ds is doing, but I'm not sure it is going to be a fit for them. I was speaking with the boy later and he was saying that he doesn't like his work now and misses the teaching at his old school (from before they moved) which was heavy on discussion. Are there any home school high school curriculum that are heavy on discussion? It would need to be a fairly complete curriculum as I don't think the dad wants to put together something on his own.

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Sonlight could work. He would just need to add science and math. My impression of Tapestry is that it is a guide which lists many resources for you to choose from depending on your child's age and interest. I think it could offer too much choice. It doesn't have one required book list like Sonlight, does it?

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I have not used tapestry yet, just sonlight. Sonlight definitely has it all laid out, read this chapter this day and then than one that day. TOG says this book is for x week, you figure out how you want to get it done. There is much much more offered with TOG than SL for one to pick and chose from. I have heard the discussion with TOG is deeper and richer, whereas SL can end up feeling like simple question/answer level of discussion. More like a comprehension quiz than a try discussion. I am not fond of the SL high school levels, where as TOG you do the cycle like you would in earlier grades but at a higher level. Both would need science and math added, but that is true of most programs out there. Both SL and TOG have pros and cons, it all depends on what specifically you are looking for. I would look at both programs, the books used in each level and see what suits you that way rather than just the type of list it gives you. I have heard that TOG takes about 2 hours to plan out 9 weeks worth of books, activities etc. I don't think 2 hours every 9 weeks is that bad. If you happen to be a box checker and feel like you can not skip anything, that SL would be better as it offers much less than TOG to chose from. I don't think anyone ever reads all the books and does all the activities suggested in TOG for a particular level.

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TWEM? It would cover literature (great books). It makes discussions easy. He would need a partner, though, for the discussions. Across the pond, there, he may run into time zone problems if he signs up for one of the US internet courses that has live discussions. If it doesn't, then he will have to type his half of the discussion and that might not meet his criteria for a discussion. Didn't someone say on the boards recently that Potter's has times that work for overseas students? Just some thoughts...

 

Nan

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I used Sonlight prek - 5 and now use Tapestry. Tapestry is much more rich and in depth it requires the student to think and combine.

 

I would also not call Tapestry a literature based curriculum. Rather it is a history driven curriculum where history is the engine that drives the program forward. Literature is always studied in its proper time period for older students.

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I used Sonlight prek - 5 and now use Tapestry. Tapestry is much more rich and in depth it requires the student to think and combine.

 

I would also not call Tapestry a literature based curriculum. Rather it is a history driven curriculum where history is the engine that drives the program forward. Literature is always studied in its proper time period for older students.

 

See that's how you know I have not used it before. Now for my own information (sorry OP for the temporary thread jack), the history portion is still studied by reading books not texts right? That's why call it a literature based program, because all the learning is done via reading actual books not texts, rather than thinking of literature as a separate subject within it. SO what makes it different in that regard from SL for example, which is also a history based program, using historical books to read to drive it forward, and the literature is a separate but integrated part of it? I know over all they have large differences I posted some above, but in this regard what makes 1 a literature based program and the other not when they both involve reading actual books to teach the material kwim.

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The only "complete" high school curriculum I can think of is K-12, which is public high school materials done at home. Advantages are that it is often free through charter school sign-up, it is complete, it is what many public schools use and graduate students with. Disadvantages are that it is textbook-based which means the parent would have to find ways to make it discussion-oriented.

 

 

For discussion, perhaps try some online courses? There are a LOT of good ones out there, but not all have a discussion component. For the most discussion bang for your buck, I'd suggest two classes: History, and Literature, as those naturally require the most discussion.

 

I'm linking you to some past threads with lists of online courses, BUT you will have to sort through them to find out which offer live discussion -- many are watching video lectures and emailing with the instructor only. I do know that The Potter's Schoolhas weekly online class discussions; I have heard good things about their classes.

 

- Online Courses -- where?

- Comprehensive List of Online Classes

- Anyone have a fantastic online writing course to recommend?

- List of awesome online classes your kids are taking this year

- Unsolicited shout-out to Jann in Tx for her (online) math classes

 

And here's a helpful "getting started with outsourcing" thread: Outsourcing and online classes: best subject to start with and how many.

 

 

Another option for discussion: in what area do your friends live? There may be a homeschool co-op as an option, or a homeschool group of high schoolers with whom the family could meet weekly and do some things together: science labs; book discussion; history discussion; etc. Some families gather together weekly around a common curriculum -- such as Apologia Science, or Tapestry of Grace, or Konos (a unit-based curriculum).

 

 

For discussion-based homeschool curriculum, Sonlight, My Father's World, and Tapestry of Grace are all book-based, with teacher guides that contain much material for background and for guiding discussion. They increase in rigor in the order I listed. Tapestry of Grace has the most complete and longest amount of weekly material for the parent, and is heavily discussion-based.

 

As a previous poster mentioned, all three of these "boxed" curriculum will cover history, geography, bible, literature, and writing. Everything you need is in the package for those subjects. Science and math programs are separate, but can be purchased at the same time; Sonlight includes the math and science in the weekly schedule in the younger grades; not sure if they also do so for high school.

 

 

As far as putting something together; it's actually not too hard for high school, as math and science at that level are complex and are covered with a stand-alone textbook, and/or DVD tutorial program. Perhaps a DVD science would be a good option; then student and parent could watch together and be able to discuss.

 

 

Finally, one last thought: it's good to have a "carrot" to encourage a student you are having trouble getting to do schoolwork. Does this young man have interests they could encourage with extracurricular involvement? Sports? Speech/Debate team? Chess club? Involvement in youth theater, band, or other arts? Movie-making? Socializing through air-softing or other fun activities? First, that really helps attitude to meet others with like interests. Especially being new to the area, it would be great to make some friends. Second, now you have a carrot: "You want to go to your ______ activity? Well, then let's get today's work finished so you can!"

 

BEST of luck to your friends! Warmly, Lori D.

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Thanks for all the other responses.

 

I think that TWEM might require a bit too much prep work for the dad, but the Potters School could be a great option or one of the programs that is in the links. I'll have to print those all out for them.

 

Lori, they live near me in the UK and there are no home ed co-ops for discussion anywhere around us. I like your idea of activities for 'carrots.' I know they would love to find baseball or football teams around for him to participate in, but they're pretty far from us. I'm actually shocked there are any in the UK at all. But they're looking for other sports and activities for him to be involved in.

 

I think he's going through a bit of culture shock in his move from the US to the UK. The funny thing is that the family is British, but they lived in the US for years and the 14yo is sort of a 3rd culture kid. It's what I'm sure my kids will go through if we ever move back to the States. I guess that's why I have a real heart for him.

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See that's how you know I have not used it before. Now for my own information (sorry OP for the temporary thread jack), the history portion is still studied by reading books not texts right? That's why call it a literature based program, because all the learning is done via reading actual books not texts, rather than thinking of literature as a separate subject within it. SO what makes it different in that regard from SL for example, which is also a history based program, using historical books to read to drive it forward, and the literature is a separate but integrated part of it? I know over all they have large differences I posted some above, but in this regard what makes 1 a literature based program and the other not when they both involve reading actual books to teach the material kwim.

 

 

I think where we are apart is the word literature. In my oldest's work for the last few weeks Tapestry has set up mini debates for my co-op students and one of the things they have pressed the students to do is define terms. So I went over the Merriam Webster to find out what they say about what literature means. Here's the link: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literature Both of us are operating under the third definition but we are using different sub-meanings. If you look at the example sentences I am using one that is used in the first sample sentence, "She took courses in history and literature." Literature and history are separate in that sentence.

 

You are using a broader meaning in which anything that is not a text is literature. To be honest, if I was defining terms with you for a debate, I'd have to press you to be more specific about this. There are great textbooks written by one person that are used as classroom texts, that I think you might include in the literature category.

 

So for the sake of explaining my part, I will use the term literature to include works that are not nonfiction, it can include poetry, drama, novels, short stories, and possibly some essays, but not those which are overly technical (so I'll take Swift's "Modest Proposal" but not Calvin's Institutes).

 

Tapestry is history driven and one place I can see that is their approach to resources including history books. I spent a long time with Sonlight and I can remember what a crises it was for them when a book they were using went out of print. In some instances they had them reprinted. They worked with some publishers to continue using books they wanted to use. I remember a very sweet post from John about how difficult it was going to be to replace Sarita as the book picker when she retired. I think this is what you mean when you talk about Sonlight and literature. As a book lover, it was what drew me to Sonlight.

 

Instead at Tapestry they have threads or facts of history they want to cover, when a book goes out of print, they find another book that covers the facts they need and replace it. Further, they provide alternative resources to their primary resources and encourage folks to check the library choices. They'd probably be even more free from the primary books if it weren't for us users who have demanded and forced them a bit to cobble discussions and questions to the books used in primary rather than those they want to ask whether or not every book would cover them which is what they want to do with the oldest students.

 

The other place I see a big difference is the use of historical fiction. Wherever possible Tapestry uses the fiction of the time period, not fiction written about the time period, but fiction written in the time period. Obviously for younger children, this means children's versions but by upper grammar they read Shakespeare synopsis not stories about some kid who knows Shakespeare. Even in high school grades, Sonlight still plugs in historical fiction. So older students might read The Crucible when they studied the witch trials of puritan New England.

 

Tapestry instead reads the fiction of the age. This produces a totally different view of older cultures, somewhat shocking, to be honest. In the case of the Middle Ages, they even tried to bridge the gap between those times and ours by providing a great work by Lewis called The Discarded Image. This work proved to be too difficult and they had to drop it, but I found it a wonderful addition to the year. I can remember going to an exhibit of Spanish Renaissance art and knowing why Mary was standing on the moon in all the works of art with her in them.

 

I often come across moms who like the historical fiction approach because it helps their children get into the mindset of the age. I don't think so. Quite the opposite, it gets their kids to think all ages are the same with the same issues as our day. Find me historical fiction that includes one pope already in hell and the current one on his way to the same hole (not likely, but Dante includes this in Inferno), or how about a warrior bishop (The Song of Roland)?

 

So they are similar but not the same.

 

On the matter of discussions, Tapestry includes their discussions as discussions showing the mom what to ask and what factual points they should be listening for but giving them areas where their students may depart and have opinions of their own. Better yet the student pages are made to hand off to the student to prep for the discussions; I'm stilling seeing complaints that Sonlight can't quite make this jump over on their boards. So in that area I think Tapestry is stronger. BUT a lot depends on what you want and your students can learn from.

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