Why do people in financial need plan to have more children?

[I.Dup.]

from what I know about, um, teA it would take a bit more than the initial fall. LOL!!!!!! Too funny!

[Audrey]

from what I know about, um, teA it would take a bit more than the initial fall. LOL!!!!!! Too funny!

 

 

It may, depending on how far his "happiness" had progressed by the time the fall occurred.

[mommymilkies]

"Accidents" do happen even with birth control. I conceived my eldest while on Depo-Provera. My doctor was SHOCKED.

 

i got pregnant with my first three weeks after being told I would NEVER be able to have children. Then I was bf, no af, and on the mini pill (not to mention another method) when I got pg with ds. I used the diaphragm with my last two, combined with NFP. So lets not assume just because you use bc, that it *works*. And you never know down the line. Maybe you had a kid and circumstances changed. It is really not a blip on my radar to judge others for having kids when they might not be able to afford it. I wish we lived in a society where families were held in esteem and supported, instead we end up with complaining that kids are a drain on taxpayer resources.

[TravelingChris]

With regards to the wisdom tooth, I can see where it can be an emergent condition. With my first wisdom tooth removal, it happened when I was on Christmas break, returning back to college on New Year's Day and I couldn't open my mouth almost at all. I couldn't eat normal food, just liquids. If the girl had a problem like that, wisdom tooth removal would be essential. If your kid had this, you wouldn't be worried about CPS, you would do it because you would not want your child to suffer.

[mommymilkies]

I'm already catching a ton of flack for seriously considering not bringing my oldest for braces. I just don't know what orifice I'm gonna pull thousands of dollars out of to cover that. So tell me, how do other people with far less manage that or manage not to worry about it? I feel like a total scab over it.

They have financing. I will only get braces when clearly necessary. Not cosmetic reasons. My oldest had a cross bite that would have needed a gum graft, so braces helped. But no way am I paying thousands for each kid to have a movie star smile. That's ridiculous. I had braces and they caused major mouth problems for me. I don't consider them safe unless medically/dentally necessary. If they complain, we'll just watch more British TV.

[happyhomemaker25]

While it's ok to be happy with having kids in your thirties or whatever, it does not seem right to judge those of us who always dreamed of being mothers. I knew when I was a child that this was my calling in life. I never once doubted it. When it did not happen naturally we became foster parents and in our 20s adopted 5 children from foster care. We went about happy and whole. We went out to eat and had weekly play dates at Chick Fil A. We went on vacations and had nice Christmas.

FF to our 30s when apparently we were supposed to be "set for life". DH lost his job and searched high and low for two years before he found anything. And that job is barely keeping our bills paid. We were absolutely surprised that after 9 years of trying to get pregnant, with NOTHING stopping it, we were pregnant the same year he got laid off. You don't take as many pregnancy tests as I did over the years to not be surprised when two pink lines actually show up. Seven tests later the pink lines were still there and I was still in shock.

In our 30s we rarely go out to eat, there are no vacations, our van is barely getting down the street, playdates are at the park or at our house. Extra curriculars are limited to things at church that allow us to make payments when we can. It will get better. It's silly to ask why people would want kids in their 20s before they can afford them when it's so much better to wait until your are more financially stable in your 30s.

I never dreamed of extravagant vacations, new cars, nice homes, whatever I wanted in my 20s. I always, always dreamed of holding a baby in my 20s.

I'm not saying it's wrong to wait until your 30s. I'm just saying that many of us have reasons for wanting kids in our 20s and just because your older when you start having kids doesn't mean your going to be more financially stable.

[Murphy101]

Martha,

I don't disagree that babies result from sex. I was directly responding to the post disparaging people who don't use bc. I was married, we had insurance, dh had a good job, etc. We were fine with it. But, given how doctors talk about DP? I can understand thinking you were okay for sex and being very surprised by a pregnancy. I never trusted my fertility to hormonal birth control again and we never had another unplanned pregnancy.

 

I know. But that's my point. What risk is acceptable for a low income woman to take to not be judged an irresponsible whatsit?

 

And then there is me. I cannot take birth control. The only option for me would be surgery and there is significant risk that wouldn't be wise. Even if I decided actually following catholic teaching wasn't what I wanted to do, I would still be left with either doing without sex entirely or taking a risk on getting pregnant.

 

So let's say I throw my religious beliefs under the financial bus and use birth control. And let's say I still got pregnant with baby number 2 or 3. oh and does the number matter? Is it okay to accept birth control failure baby 2, but not 6? What if we were financially great for babies 1-4, but not surprise number 5? So anyways, let's say I throw individual health caution, future desire for child, and my religion to the wind and used birth control. And it failed.

 

Am I worthy of still being considered responsible if it was the pill? NFP? Condom?

 

How much explaining do I need to do to be deemed worthy of having my baby?

 

If we want to talk about poverty, breaking family cycles, an economic system that thrives off keeping people poor and then making them feel like poo for needing help, a lack of 2 parent homes, a crappy education model... ALL of that is good questions.

 

Why do people have babies?

 

We already know the answer to that.

[mommymilkies]

On that one, I am a former andrologist that worked in infertility. Of all of my patients who spoke to me about it, not one single person ever said they were glad they waited. You wait too long, it might just not happen. I don't know one single person who remained childless and was happy in the end from my time working med/Surg and hospice, either. I don't care if you decide not to have kids. A TON of people do decide to remain childless. That's fine. But I would never encourage someone to wait until finances are perfect, because unless you are a trust fund baby, it's most likely never going to happen. Plus people forget that we are humans. Humans with a biological drive to procreate. Not all of us have the self-control or desire for aestheticism like saints.

 

-sincerely, a formerly teen mother (and ex-professional) with "too many" kids and not enough funds sometimes.

[momtoamiracle]

That's it, I can't follow this thread anymore, because now I have this hilarious visual (that won't leave my mind) of a naked woman slipping on a banana peel and falling strategically on an unusually happy man.

 

:laugh:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[mommymilkies]

That's it, I can't follow this thread anymore, because now I have this hilarious visual (that won't leave my mind) of a naked woman slipping on a banana peel and falling strategically on an unusually happy man.

 

:laugh:

 

But was he wearing a kilt? I'm pretty sure I only throw banana peels around if there are men with kilts nearby.

[Murphy101]

It may, depending on how far his "happiness" had progressed by the time the fall occurred.

 

Or if they are running because they heard the pitter patter of little feet running back into the house.

 

I'm already catching a ton of flack for seriously considering not bringing my oldest for braces. I just don't know what orifice I'm gonna pull thousands of dollars out of to cover that. So tell me, how do other people with far less manage that or manage not to worry about it? I feel like a total scab over it.

 

I have two kids in braces right now. My orifice is feeling downright hemoriodal because of it.

[mommymilkies]

 

 

Yeah, but I'm living on enough "financing". KWIM? I still need to find a way to pay for it.

 

I do agree on cosmetic vs. medically necessary. My son's problem is cosmetic.

 

Our financing was free. Just a pay monthly deal. No interest or anything. Like making medical payments for surgery. It probably depends on your orthodontist, but definitely try another opinion. Prices vary wildly.

[mommymilkies]

 

 

Yeah, they are going to tell me to finance it. You know what the interest rate on those plans are unless you can pay it off in a year? So the braces would cost me even more.

 

And that's one kid. I have 2 kids. I need dental work myself that I'm not getting so I can take care of their needs. KWIM?

 

And we aren't dirt poor. We are just pretty average I think.

 

Unfortunately, it's exorbitant for most people. But that would start me on the universal healthcare/dental care speech. ;p

[mommymilkies]

 

 

Do you know the name of the finance company? And what are your monthly payments? Hopefully I'm not being too nosy here.

it was just through their office, like what most medical offices do. It was...$110 a month and we made a down payment of like $200? She only had them on a year or so to fit the cross bite. I positively hate that office, otherwise.

[Janie Grace]

I agree with whomever said that you'd have to ask each person in this situation. I'm sure reasons vary a LOT.

 

There are some who see having lots of children as pleasing God. They feel that they KNOW He wants them to "be fruitful"; they may not know how all the needs will be met, but they at least need to be obedient to what (they think) is clear in Scripture and trust Him with the rest.

 

I don't believe this way but I can understand and respect this viewpoint. It alarms me, but I get it.

 

I do think some have children because of the pleasure of it... the joy of being pregnant, a new baby, etc. As someone said, it doesn't get hard/costly til later. So if you are short-sighted and other things about life are hard/unpleasant, the next "blessing" is a nice focus.

 

Just some thoughts (based on people I know)... but like I said, I'm sure there are a thousand different reasons.

[Joker]

Do you know the name of the finance company? And what are your monthly payments? Hopefully I'm not being too nosy here.

 

We pay directly to our orthodontist. They just divided the total by the number of months she would be in braces and we pay that amount every month. For us, dd would be in braces for 18 months and we pay $140/month. There are no added fees.

 

ETA: There's also CareCredit, which is a credit card. Most dental offices take it and you always get a period of no interest for a specified amount of time. I could have put her braces on that card with no fees for the same 18 months.

[mommymilkies]

 

 

See that would be doable, but what if these stupid things cost $5000 or more? I can't imagine payments that low.

 

Then go to a different ortho! I would never pay that much! They're usually $1500-2500 in my experience and from talking to friends.

[Murphy101]

Ugh. I hate Murphy.

 

I just posted on FB yesterday that sure enough as I was opening the washing machine to switch laundry out and commenting to dh that we should be able to scrape together a nice Christmas this year I look in the washer and discover it isn't working. :/

[Murphy101]

We do have $1000 insurance coverage towards it. I may look into it to see what our options are. I just don't like going into it unsure I can pay for it. I don't want to tell my kid I can't afford something someone else is going to tell him he needs. And they do do that.

Ok, so again, how do poor people handle this problem?

 

They don't get braces and their kid spends a huge chunk of her adult life on dental issues and being self conscious about smiling. Slightly autobiographical. :(

 

ETA: mine was needed. Some of my teeth are literally fused and cracked together they are so tight. And some of it was cosmetic. And you know what? I'd pay for my kids to have beautiful smile before I'd ever buy makeup. Everyone wants to look nice and it's hard to feel that way when you are made fun in school or feel like you have a hillbilly smile as an adult.

 

It's a huge rant of mine about insurance. I could not care less about well checks, but I think it's ridiculous that three things that are far more common issues to affect daily living aren't covered or pitifully covered : vision, dental, and hearing.

[justamouse]

I apologize for offending you.

 

 

You don't have to apologize, you asked an honest question. You just happened to punch a bruise because everywhere I go, *someone* remarks on the size of my family, in front of their faces. I'd like to line my kids up and ask the offender which ones he thought I should send back.

[Crimson Wife]

For example, LLL meetings. Afterwards, a group of us liked going out to eat. So we did. We called ourselved the "afterhours" LLL group. We were mostly the moms who had waited because the early 20-somethings couldn't afford to go or they had to work. I got to buy any cloth diaper I wanted and did I! :D

 

I'm sorry, but this is a really lame reason to wait and run the risk of age-related infertility, miscarriages, and/or serious disabilities in the child.

 

We were broke 20somethings when our oldest was born. She was a surprise and the timing was not at all good (I found out I was pregnant 2 weeks after my DH got his grad school acceptance). The first few years were a real struggle financially. We certainly didn't have cash to blow on going out to eat :rolleyes: But God knew what he was doing because she is healthy and so is her younger brother (also born when I was in my 20's). Had we waited until the "proper" age of my 30's, we'd most likely have only a single child because our disabled child would've been born first. Unfortunately, the risk of autism in subsequent children is very high, and the older the parents are, the higher that risk is. :(

[annandatje]

"Accidents" do happen even with birth control. I conceived my eldest while on Depo-Provera. My doctor was SHOCKED.

 

What I meant was that I doubt accidents occur at the rate claimed. I conceived while conscientiously using the sponge. The manufacturer claimed a higher reliability rate than what transpired in real life. Some years later, it was taken off market.

[annandatje]

 

You don't have to apologize, you asked an honest question. You just happened to punch a bruise because everywhere I go, *someone* remarks on the size of my family, in front of their faces. I'd like to line my kids up and ask the offender which ones he thought I should send back.

 

I do not have what I would consider a big family but I was once asked if I was singlehandedly trying to repopulate world. What mom of more than two hasn't been asked, "are all those yours?" Sometimes I think people are awkwardly attempting to make conversation and do not realize they're obnoxious. We had similar experiences when kids dyed their hair non-human colors. Really only one person intended to be nasty in his comments; some of the others just spoke before thinking.

[Aelwydd]

 

 

No, I think we actually agree on a lot. I'll just go ahead and say that IN MY OPINION it's the height of irresponsibility for one to continue to have unprotected sex if one is not able to feed/clothe/nurture the children one has. Except in the cases of rape, pregnancy is, as my dad used to say, "self-inflicted." :-)

 

 

 

astrid

 

I agree. Using the OP's qualifier of planning to have a baby in dire circumstances, I don't really understand that either.

 

To me, dire means there is a critical lack in the basic necessities, like food, housing, or where there is some sort of life-threatening illness or physical ailment.

 

Planning, IMO, means engaging in sexual relations with the express purpose of conceiving. It does not mean accidental, or surprise, or "oops, we thought were were safe, but weren't."

 

 

With those as my working definitions, no, I don't think it's a particularly well thought out plan to intentionally conceive a child that you will likely not be able to feed, house, clothe, or otherwise support.

 

This is not a "classist" thing either, since many poor people can provide the above. When I had my ds at age 25, my dh and I definitely fell well below the poverty level, and we were living in a high COL area, to boot. We were still able to provide shelter, food, and clothes for our child though, and that was enough.

 

We struggled a great deal though, and is a major reason why we stopped at one child. I don't use hormonal birth control; we abstain during fertile periods, and we don't use barrier methods due to mutual distaste. We have done this for 10 years, and have had 100% success in preventing another pregnancy.

 

I share this to refute those here who would claim that being "open to life" and not using contraception means that one is inevitably bound to have multiple children. In our case, we've chosen to avoid conceiving another due to financial constraints, and also because both ds and I have suffered from multiple health issues that would make caring for a baby difficult.

[justLisa]

Ugh all of this talk about dental work and I'm back to the booze bit.

 

Really I don't know how people manage. I only have two because I am a parranoid planner and worry about every little thing. I know some very loving, capable and large families that have battled through some heavy things. I don't think I am that kind of person so I have a small family. I just don't think it's a one size fits all argument. Everyone has a different idea of what it takes to raise kids. I think I am delusional and assume we are talking about those planning a child when they could be in "better" times. What if you had no kids and struggled. I just can't imagine my life childless, not ever.

[justamouse]

Then go to a different ortho! I would never pay that much! They're usually $1500-2500 in my experience and from talking to friends.

 

This must be a location thing, because ours are costing 6000 a kid. And they're medically needed. Dh has had dental problems and jaw problems all his life because his parents didn't think his teeth were bad enough. :glare:

[Hannah]

Burden? I hope my parents will allow me the privilege of caring for them in their old age rather than choosing to go to a nursing home (which from what I understand might be their current thought based on comments I've heard). We wouldn't think of this as a burden, but as a natural part of life and love.

 

 

Okay, that is because you are ONLY seeing children as a burden.

 

Eventually, children pay for themselves and/or are a boon to a family. Maybe your thinking should be more about children being a blessing and how they can be more of a blessing in the future than thinking of them as financial burdens and bloodsuckers.

 

I don't see children as bloodsuckers, actually. I know this child will be a joy to his/her parents. grandparents and extended family. BUT it is mostly the grandparents and brother who will be paying the bills. And that is a finanical burden for the grandparents - and a huge worry. They are not well off.

They put aside money for their retirement to support two people - not seven. And the 'natural order as you describe it above (children eventually paying for themselves) is not happening here. The grandparents are not being supported, they are doing the supporting. And the brother is contributing too - to help out his parents.

 

I guess my question is how well do you know your friend's family? Are you maybe projecting your own feelings on how much you would want to help your adult children?

 

I know the brother. He is concerned about the stress that this situation is putting on his parents. He is also now planning to start caring for his parents sooner than he had initially anticipated because they will be financially dependant on him soon. At this point he does not want to care for his sister and her family, but I guess he will have to.

[annandatje]

 

I agree! Who can go through life with bad vision and hearing? And some dental issues affect our health.

 

But...we gotta get those well checks in. Because you know, well checks make us well! (not)

 

This brings back traumatic memories for me. There were kids in my community who did not get the treatment they needed for vision and hearing problems as well as other more serious issues. I remember a kid who had tooth infection that caused an infection in lining of heart muscle which ultimately was fatal.

[nmoira]

 

 

This must be a location thing, because ours are costing 6000 a kid. And they're medically needed. Dh has had dental problems and jaw problems all his life because his parents didn't think his teeth were bad enough. :glare:

 

I'm covering my ears, eyes... something. I need to be covered. DD the Elder is going in very soon for an evaluation. She needs them for a spacing issue. Insurance covers half, but only up to $1500 lifetime.

[justamouse]

 

This brings back traumatic memories for me. There were kids in my community who did not get the treatment they needed for vision and hearing problems as well as other more serious issues. I remember a kid who had tooth infection that caused an infection in lining of heart muscle which ultimately was fatal.

 

Mouth infections cause bodily inflammation and are one of the most dangerous things to have long term. Sorry about your friend. (((hugs)))

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Orthodontia costs are killing us. We might still be middle class if not for braces for three kids! And each have been necessary. One of our children has naturally healthy and sufficiently straight teeth, but I don't know why, because two of his brothers have freakish abnormalities that require extensive care. Surgeries plus braces. And the last of our four boys has a simple bite issue that is being solved with garden variety braces. His are very cheap, compared to the other two! We did not plan on this expense, because neither DH nor I ever had braces. We honestly didn't anticipate it at all.

 

And half of our children have glasses, and some of them have had leg braces and custom orthotics. Would someone please remind me again why I was against universal health care? Because we can't afford this.

[justLisa]

Anyhow this has become a rather depressing discussion. I'm a lot happier than I sound here. Really. I worry about stuff because I'm a worrier, but I love my kids despite how expensive they are. LOL

 

So...don't worry be happy. :D

 

 

Happy and drink booze and eat cupcakes I say.

 

I know lets talk about Unicorns!

[Hannah]

 

You don't have to apologize, you asked an honest question. You just happened to punch a bruise because everywhere I go, *someone* remarks on the size of my family, in front of their faces. I'd like to line my kids up and ask the offender which ones he thought I should send back.

 

Thanks for being so gracious.

[Elinor Everywhere]

If they complain, we'll just watch more British TV.

 

:lol: :lol:

[SKL]

I'm in the "all babies are blessings" camp.

 

But I also agree that there's a thing called respect - for the people who will have to help raise the children.

 

We've had other threads where people complain about their sibling who is a sponge, who lives carelessly and then begs for money, whose moms enable them, who appear unlikely to ever support themselves let alone return the favors granted to them.

 

Traditionally, yes, family helped family "ideally." However, traditionally, if you got pregnant you spent that much more time out in the fields working your tail off to feed those children, until they could work alongside you and produce enough to feed themselves.

 

I had to sadly chuckle at the India comment. The vast majority of Indian families with "means" have two or fewer children, because they think it's irresponsible to have more. The poor folks have more kids, but then, I've seen these families sleeping on the bare ground without a blanket to place between their faces and the street. There is a lot of beating and forcing kids to go out and work or beg. There is female infanticide, selling/abandoning girls, rapes. Forget basic education for a large % of these children. I did recently learn of a poor Indian man who, after two children died, sent his 6yo daughter to live with an uncle and aunt, "so she could have a better life." She was beaten brutally every day by this "family," and within months, she had choked to death during forced oral sex. How idyllic. I'm sure there are many poor families in India that raise all of their children in an atmosphere of love (which also occurs in the USA), but the fact is that Indian culture includes the whole spectrum of family dynamics and then some.

[Aelwydd]

 

 

Meh. The vast majority of the world lives, loves, and raises children far below what most first world people think is "dire circumstances". It seems... Dare I say it? Racist? Classist? Or? To suggest that all those people are irresponsible, ignorant, or whatever for wanting and loving their children just as much as someone in a much more financially secure situation. In fact, I think it cruel to remove the one source of joy and hope they might have in any otherwise bleak situation.

 

 

 

I think that is an unfair charge against Hannah. I note that she is living in an African nation. Surely, she more than most here--including you or me--has had occasion to witness truly dire circumstances.

 

She has not said that people who are needy or poor should refrain from having children, or should regret having them. She has asked why some parents actively seek to conceive children when they are in dire straits. To me, dire means "I am unable to feed, clothe, or give shelter to this child."

 

Whatever joy having a child might bring me, I would take no joy in bearing a child, only to watch him or her suffer from hunger, cold, or disease because I could not provide the very basics.

[Melissa in Australia]

 

 

 

It's so flipping easy not to have a baby that I don't understand why reasonable people have babies they cannot afford. Obviously, a crime or a BC failure are different. But not all these "surprise" babies are BC failures or the pill's failure rate would be about 89%.

 

I guess you are not one of the people who have discovered that the pill is not very successful at all. I got pregnant 3 times on the pill, and twice after having my tubes tied. For me the pills failure rate was very high.

The funny thing is that now I have given up trying not to have children I haven't had any more.

[Laura Corin]

I had to sadly chuckle at the India comment. The vast majority of Indian families with "means" have two or fewer children, because they think it's irresponsible to have more.

 

It's interesting in China too: those people who are allowed to have more than one child (parents who themselves are only children, or people from ethnic minorities) in general still have only one. They have seen the struggles of the previous generations to give opportunities to large families and are choosing to put all their resources into one child.

 

Laura

[Catwoman]

 

You don't have to apologize, you asked an honest question. You just happened to punch a bruise because everywhere I go, *someone* remarks on the size of my family, in front of their faces. I'd like to line my kids up and ask the offender which ones he thought I should send back.

 

I'd like to be there when you do it! :D

[Laura Corin]

 

And the social consequences of a nation of only children is only now beginning to be felt.

 

Do you have the statistics on the ethnic minorities? I never lived in China for any significant amount of time, but when I was studying abroad there I did notice that several of my Chinese acquaintances who were either from rural and/or minority background came from families with two children. But, I do realize that this was just anecdotal so it would be interesting to see the actual numbers.

 

 

Mine's anecdotal too. The people I knew were mostly from the countryside but now living in the city, and were choosing to have just one child now. That sounds like a later generation compared to the people you met.

 

Laura

[Murphy101]

He is concerned about the stress that this situation is putting on his parents. He is also now planning to start caring for his parents sooner than he had initially anticipated because they will be financially dependant on him soon. At this point he does not want to care for his sister and her family, but I guess he will have to.

 

If he is concerned, then he should discuss it with his parents. Tho I don't know that WHY his parents are going to need him soon should matter. What if their investments had tanked and that was why?

 

He doesn't HAVE to do diddly. He is capable and possibly just in telling his sister to not let the door hit her in the bum on the way out. He is capable and possibly just is telling his parents that it was their own foolishness to spend that money in his delinquent sister and not give them anything.

 

The notion that family has to justify our care and support is not one I understand. Well that's not true. I completely understand it and grew up in it. I simply refuse to live MY family that way.

 

I think that is an unfair charge against Hannah. I note that she is living in an African nation. Surely, she more than most here--including you or me--has had occasion to witness truly dire circumstances.

She has not said that people who are needy or poor should refrain from having children, or should regret having them. She has asked why some parents actively seek to conceive children when they are in dire straits. To me, dire means "I am unable to feed, clothe, or give shelter to this child."

Whatever joy having a child might bring me, I would take no joy in bearing a child, only to watch him or her suffer from hunger, cold, or disease because I could not provide the very basics.

 

 

One, she didn't give some gosh awful poor African war torn starving family example.

 

Two, even in those examples, I hazard they do it because children are hope to most people. Feeble and starving though the hope might be, it's literally the only hope they have. It is the reason the walk miles upon miles for the chance at a sip of clean water, refuge, and medicine. Not for themselves, for the feeble hope they literally carry in their arms.

 

Three, many parents have watched their children die. Few of them regret the child because of it. You find joy where you have to. Even in soul scarring sorrow.

[Murphy101]

You don't have to apologize, you asked an honest question. You just happened to punch a bruise because everywhere I go, *someone* remarks on the size of my family, in front of their faces. I'd like to line my kids up and ask the offender which ones he thought I should send back.

 

 

I did say that to my dad and said every one of them and he wished he could do the same with his.

 

Oh he's going to be a real peach to care for in his old age. :/

[ktgrok]

Martha,

I don't disagree that babies result from sex. I was directly responding to the post disparaging people who don't use bc. I was married, we had insurance, dh had a good job, etc. We were fine with it. But, given how doctors talk about DP? I can understand thinking you were okay for sex and being very surprised by a pregnancy. I never trusted my fertility to hormonal birth control again and we never had another unplanned pregnancy.

 

 

Even non hormonal can fail. I've had condoms break. And my youngest is a result of TeA on a dry day, no cervical mucous, no signs of impending fertility (I've been tracking for over a decade, so know what I'm doing), and many days before I expected to ovulate. And yet...here he is.

 

I agree...having sex means you are ok with having a baby. Personally, I am of the "babies are a blessing" camp. I loved watching "Call the Midwife" and seeing the people in poverty loving their families. But I come from a poor family (father would have to go out and catch fish for ust o have dinner....often he had no idea in the morning how or what he would do to feed us that evening, but he knew something would work out), and I had my first kid poor, my second kid paycheck to paycheck, and my third when we are what I consider comfortable, but to many would still be poor. Loved them all the same, never regretted them.

[momtoamiracle]

What is TeA?

 

 

I can honestly say birth control has never failed me.

 

 

 

I haven't used it in almost 10 years, and the previous 8 years it was only sporadic.

 

 

Probably the only perk of being infertile...

[Joanne]

 

What I meant was that I doubt accidents occur at the rate claimed. I conceived while conscientiously using the sponge. The manufacturer claimed a higher reliability rate than what transpired in real life. Some years later, it was taken off market.

 

 

 

Sponge-worthy! :laugh: *remembers Elaine's closet of sponges*

[Aelwydd]

 

 

If he is concerned, then he should discuss it with his parents. Tho I don't know that WHY his parents are going to need him soon should matter. What if their investments had tanked and that was why?

 

He doesn't HAVE to do diddly. He is capable and possibly just in telling his sister to not let the door hit her in the bum on the way out. He is capable and possibly just is telling his parents that it was their own foolishness to spend that money in his delinquent sister and not give them anything.

 

The notion that family has to justify our care and support is not one I understand. Well that's not true. I completely understand it and grew up in it. I simply refuse to live MY family that way.

 

 

 

One, she didn't give some gosh awful poor African war torn starving family example.

 

Two, even in those examples, I hazard they do it because children are hope to most people. Feeble and starving though the hope might be, it's literally the only hope they have. It is the reason the walk miles upon miles for the chance at a sip of clean water, refuge, and medicine. Not for themselves, for the feeble hope they literally carry in their arms.

 

Three, many parents have watched their children die. Few of them regret the child because of it. You find joy where you have to. Even in soul scarring sorrow.

 

 

Just because she did not give an extreme example, does not mean that she is ignorant of real suffering, as your post to her suggested. I thought your tone was pretty rude, accusing her of classism, because she asked a simple question.

 

Given that government aid does not exist for this family, and given that they are dependent upon the continued good will of a relative to support them and their children, I could see many scenarios where it goes from simply difficult to very, very bad in a heartbeat.

 

Two, the evidence I have seen indicates many destitute women in third world countries have many children, is because they have no choice, not because of "hope." They are married young (again, usually at someone else's bidding), they have a dearth of education in how to space pregnancies out or how to prevent, and they don't have access to birth control, even if they could afford it (which many cannot).

 

Three, you can point to grief stricken parents all you like (and I think it's poor taste you would use their grief to buttress your viewpoint), but can you point to any examples of parents who deliberately conceive a child in situation where they know he or she is likely to starve to death, or die of disease? There's a reason why birth rates plummet in difficult economic times; they don't want to inflict such hardship on a child or children. If pregnancy happens, then it happens, and you do the best you can. But to consciously try to conceive, when you are hungry, or your other children are hungry? Or where having another child will cause severe hardship on the family due to limited resources?

 

That I do not understand.

 

Just to reiterate, I'm not talking about financial difficulty or your average poor person. When I had my ds, we were making about $19,000/year and living in a very expensive area. We lived in a tiny one bedroom apartment. We lived hand-to-mouth, and depended on donations and gifts for baby's needs. But we made just enough to pay rent, buy food, and provide for ds's needs. There are many people who live on less and they are able to do the same for their kids. I don't begrudge them for having children at all.

 

What I don't support is people deliberately having children they can't feed or house. That doesn't mean I think they don't have the right to make that choice, or that I don't want them to have any help. I am very glad some of my tax dollars go to feed hungry people and to provide shelter, regardless of the reasons why they are in the situation. But like the OP, I don't personally find it very thoughtful or responsible for some people who choose to get pregnant. It's their kids who ultimately suffer for it.

[Aelwydd]

 

 

She wasn't talking about dire straits, but "in financial need." The examples she posted was of a situation where the husband was underemployed and they were depending on family help. There was no indication that the family was without a roof over their heads, starving children, etc. She wanted to understand why people would make such a decision and people posted why some folks make the decision to have more children even as the circumstances that do not meet the standards of others.

 

The discussion did get derailed somewhat into a discussion of those "dire straits" but for the most part, it was not about extreme cases of severe poverty but rather less than ideal circumstances.

 

 

I read what Hannah said about no available government aid to the family and that's what triggered the "uh oh" flag to me. I agree that those who are in need should not be castigated for having kids. Jesus said, "Blessed are the poor," and I believe that.

 

I'm coming from a family culture though, where it was taught that if you won't or can't work to support your family, you are not ready to have one. And that children are a blessing, but also a responsibility that should not be taken lightly. So, in the case of Hannah's family, I wouldn't say anything besides "congratulations" to the parents, but I would be worried about how they would provide for their new baby if the brother gets fed up and stopped supporting them.

[Mommy22alyns]

I did say that to my dad and said every one of them and he wished he could do the same with his.

 

Oh he's going to be a real peach to care for in his old age. :/

 

 

Oh, wow. I am so sorry. :grouphug:

[Aelwydd]

 

 

I did say that to my dad and said every one of them and he wished he could do the same with his.

 

Oh he's going to be a real peach to care for in his old age. :/

 

 

Why is it the mean ones always last the longest? I have a real prize of a grandfather like that, and he gets nastier every year.

 

 

FWIW, if he can't appreciate your kids, it's his very sad loss. You've given him a precious gift of grandchildren and it sounds like he is too stuck up his own rear to acknowledge that. Pearls before swine, and all that. I hope your dh's parents are more appreciative!

[Guest]

 

:laugh:

 

 

 

OMGsh!!! How can there be a poster with this username that I have never seen? I just have to tell you, my mother called me this growing up as a sort of jokey nickname! She would say, "Oh, Dani Girl...it's time to get up for schoooooool..." singing it to Danny Boy, of course! :cheers2: