foriegn language woes

[ktgrok]

sigh...we just get over our math issues and we hit a wall in Spanish. We picked Spanish as it is the easiest to learn, and we live in Florida, so a basic knowledge can be helpful. I do NOT expect him to become fluent. Just to reasonably understand basic words and phrases, have an understanding of the grammar, etc. Basically, to pass the darned class. He is not. I've been letting him work independently (big mistake) using first Monarch, then Visual Link, and he just isn't getting it. He moves forward without remembering what he needs to know, and now is totally overwhelmed. Short of switching to ASL (which I don't particularly want to do), any suggestions? An incentive system helped with Math (he gets $5 per test that he gets an A on), so I am going to do that with Spanish. And I think he's going to have to do it out in the living room where I can watch/help etc. It's just hard with a two year old and infant.

 

(and I'm already annoyed as he lost George Washington's World and cant' find it, and the book costs $18...grr!)

[Jean in Newcastle]

Do you sit down and do it with him? i find conversational languages particularly hard to do without having someone to converse with.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Do you sit down and do it with him? i find conversational languages particularly hard to do without having someone real to converse with.

[regentrude]

In my experience, it is extremely difficult to learn a foreign language independently and almost impossible for a child to do so on its own.

My attempts at foreign language studies with my kids have only confirmed this.

At a minimum, you must sit with them and do the work together, attempt to speak the phrases - just doing book exercises alone will most likely not lead to any progress. Language learning has to be alive, with live conversations, films, literature, songs. A very motivated adult may pull it off on his own - but I would not expect it from a kid.

[Embassy]

:iagree: with previous comments. My kids only make progress when I sit down and do the language with them.

[ccolopy]

I'm not familiar with the programs you've used, but we've only had success when DS has taken a full online course, or when I participate. Do you think that the structure of an online course would help keep him on track?

[PeterPan]

Well we talked math and had epiphanies, so I wouldn't steer you wrong, right? :D One, foreign languages are hard for these kids. (Ask me how many we've tried!) Spanish vs. danish, makes no difference. Ok, Hungarian would be a bad choice, lol. But no, it being spanish vs. whatever doesn't help. Two, independent on a computer that is sort of a visual workbook (in one eyeball, out the other) won't work either. Sigh.

 

I've done some research, and I've concluded there are a few things that have to happen.

 

1-They have to WANT it. This means their brains engage. He may even want it *later*. I don't think that's something you can buy with $$. That wanting will come for some other reason you haven't discovered yet.

 

2- They have to have a use for it. Our kids only learn IN CONTEXT. In context means it's being used, reinforced, (spiral, like the math!) and has a REASON.

 

I suggest you get him a job this summer with a spanish-speaking landscaping group. Seriously. He'll learn spanish and maybe earn a buck.

 

Oh, you can actually research the topic. I think I've had some threads on it in the past or posted links. There are fancy language profs at universities doing research on what it takes to help these kids to get languages to stick. You can try to replicate it. They required the students in their pilot programs to take less classes, study an obscene amount every day, blah blah. So reality is, until they really want it AND can use it in a context enough to get it to stick, it's not gonna stick. So I go back to the landscaping job. Seriously I know a guy who got reasonably fluent in spanish that way. There are more ways to get into the language. If that's the one he wants, get him some via immersion, in a context, where he really wants to be there and can use it and gets enough use that it sticks. THEN go back and do some bookwork.

 

My idiot child (I mean in only the nicest way) has been learning SINDARIN words with her LoTR-loving friend. These nuts email using the terms, talk with it on the phone, blah blah. Could I ever get her to do that with french? No! But she never had a REASON or wanted it. They aren't incapable. They just really need the context and reinforcement (like TT and that spiral, gentle, contextualized use) for it to stick. Software and butt in front of a screen won't do it. Landscaping job would do it. Trip overseas for a summer and then coming home to a reading course or tv/news-based approach would do it. I think our kids need to do it backward like that, using it more and then getting into the books. At least that's a way that can work.

 

I only pay if it's important and with a thing I know can work. In junior high it's not important (or is he 9th?), and you aren't sure this will work.

[ktgrok]

sigh...Oh Elizabeth, I think you summed it up. Sigh. Would you suggest maybe I just drop it for this year, maybe even wait until highschool? I could focus more on his writing then, and he could get caught up in his Java programming class. He's been letting that slide as he runs out of time with me pushing everything else. I'm really thinking maybe I need to cut back..maybe drop the spanish and logic.I feel like college bound kids DO start spanish in 7th, but of course, most of them don't take Java. So maybe just relax, and wait?

[3andme]

If you want to do Spanish light for the remainder of the year, I would suggest using Getting Started with Spanish. It only takes 10-15 minutes a day, is incredibly incremental, leads to good retention, and provides a nice foundation for later work. Then maybe do a Pimsleur course over the summer. The Pimsleur course really gets you speaking. It's expensive but most libraries have a copy.

[PeterPan]

If you want to do Spanish light for the remainder of the year, I would suggest using Getting Started with Spanish. It only takes 10-15 minutes a day, is incredibly incremental, leads to good retention, and provides a nice foundation for later work. Then maybe do a Pimsleur course over the summer. The Pimsleur course really gets you speaking. It's expensive but most libraries have a copy.

 

I don't know what it's considered light compared to (and I haven't studied spanish to have a sense of what normally gets covered in a 1st year course), but that's actually a really reasonable option there. I had never seen this GSS before, but I just went and spent a few minutes looking through their site. There are specific things that are interesting about it.

 

-spiral--This is amazingly valuable.

-gradual introduction of material

-getting it right into use (It's not as strong on this as I would have liked, but it might be enough.)

-slow speakers on both the pronunciation and instruction mp3s. This is HUGE in our house. If a speaker goes too fast, some kids can't process and keep up. If a dc has issues with how they hear sounds (which some kids do, just little slight things), then that gets compounded with the fast speaker thing. Eventually they need to understand faster, more normal speech. But for certain kids, this could be just right.

 

And I love your suggestion of following this up with Pimsleur. You're right on that it's that balance of instruction and application. GSS is a little dry for my kid and probably ktgrok's, but on the other hand it's efficient. And if he does that and then goes into a landscaping job or does Pimsleur or whatever, he's connecting his new written knowledge and getting it applied.

 

Most language programs are sort of mastery. They throw at the student large lists that they want them to process and apply grammar to, bam bam bam. The gentle, persistent, spiral pacing of GSS fascinates me. It's a shame it's spanish, which is still a language with quite a bit of language and one that requires processing.

 

Well anyways, thanks for sharing that. I'm not the op obviously, but I was fascinated to see it. I think if my dd were *interested* in spanish and inclined to put in the effort, GSS has a structure that could actually get done and enough spiral that it would probably work. And knowing her and seeing what is covered there, I think it would actually be right on for her (at a pleasant level) and not feel "light". But I think you're right on that you'd want to get it into something more applied (Pimsleur, spanish-speaking friends, an online course, whatever) ASAP. BTW, have you seen Strider's posts on the online place she uses for language for her dd? The tutor is in South America and they do it live via Skype. Not saying I would do that now, but at the right point it can be helpful.

 

PS. I'm not saying Ktgrok should go buy it. I'm just saying it's interesting.

[PeterPan]

sigh...Oh Elizabeth, I think you summed it up. Sigh. Would you suggest maybe I just drop it for this year, maybe even wait until highschool? I could focus more on his writing then, and he could get caught up in his Java programming class. He's been letting that slide as he runs out of time with me pushing everything else. I'm really thinking maybe I need to cut back..maybe drop the spanish and logic.I feel like college bound kids DO start spanish in 7th, but of course, most of them don't take Java. So maybe just relax, and wait?

 

Well I don't want to discourage you, mercy. I think you're right though that when the list of broccoli subjects is taking so long that it's squeezing out the belgian cream puffs (stuff he likes) it's time to get balanced. We eat all kinds of things, not just one or the other. At least I do, and I'm supposed to eat very healthy for my (list of aches and complaints), haha. :D

 

I'll toss out another thought and see if you identify. When we started this year, we ramped up slowly, got to a level that was sort of push/challenge for her, worked to maintain it, and then she had a *growth spurt*... Now with the growth spurt, nothing is satisfying, and we have a bit of *mental room* and mental hunger to do a bit more. I think you want to get within that, where you're not so constantly overshot on what you're trying to do that you never can get the list done. At some point you need to make a list that CAN get done, and that's the list for the week. And when you have that list and it's getting done, then you check to see if there's this hunger for something more and add it.

 

So I suggest you make a list that can get done. And whatever radical amputation and mental honesty it takes is what you do. And you spit on everyone else and stop worrying. You know how a while back we were all talking about the James Madison logical course from the Critical Thinking people and how it looks so cool? Well I finally dug around and looked at samples. Turned out the thing is aimed at *11th* graders! So I think there's a window of what we can do. I know SWB says at conventions that we all better TRY to do logic in junior high and "get it out of the way" before high school. Well thanks, but I guess some of us are just going to have to wait. I know people get hyper busy. Some kids are ready earlier, some later. I don't think that just because SWB said to do it that it will turn out that every dc "should" be doing it then. I know my dd's IQ. I KNOW she's bright. And I know we didn't need to be doing xyz thing this year.

 

There's an awful lot of rat race to jump into if you want to. Make a list that can get done, that stretches him slightly but is stuff that he CAN, on a reasonable, typical week, have the satisfaction of attempting and completing. That's my advice. And yes, I always make it sound simple. :lol:

 

PS. When I get crazy with ideas I can't sort out, I just sit her down and go through the list and let her prioritize. It's her life. Debra Bell says something to that effect in her homeschooling high school book, that it's important to have them own the process. Also there's a book http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0767932587/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_7?ie=UTF8&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER you need to read. Or maybe you have already? It's on my gotta get list, because my library doesn't have it. It's basically in the vein of doing a good job without having to become a greyhound race dog (or worse yet feeling like the rabbit in the race).