chocoholic Posted December 7, 2012 Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) I've been listening to SWB's audio lectures and I don't hear her addressing Socratic discussions (logic stage anyway). Am I to assume that they aren't really that necessary? Some people say they're important, and I'm just reaseaching. I just reccently bought the Teaching the Classics DVDs & seminar book (I like it - it teaches me how to teach) to learn how to conduct them, but listening to SWB's audio lecture on history - she doesn't mention them at all. Soooooo, does anyone have any thoughts on Socratic discussions for the logic stage? Plus, SWB talks about "not beating a book to death" - I can see myself doing that, trying to be a "good socratic discussion leader." Yay or nay? Edited December 7, 2012 by chocoholic Quote
Chrysalis Academy Posted December 7, 2012 Posted December 7, 2012 I've been listening to SWB's audio lectures and I don't hear her addressing Socratic discussions (logic stage anyway). Am I to assume that they aren't really that necessary? Some people say they're important, and I'm just reaseaching. I just reccently bought the Teaching the Classics DVDs & seminar book (I like it - it teaches me how to teach) to learn how to conduct them, but listening to SWB's audio lecture on history - she doesn't mention them at all. Soooooo, does anyone have any thoughts on Socratic discussions for the logic stage? Plus, SWB talks about "not beating a book to death" - I can see myself doing that, trying to be a "good socratic discussion leader." Yay or nay? Well, I don't know how often our discussions achieve Socratic status, but I would say that discussion is very important for us. We have discussions in all the content areas - science, history, and literature in particular. It is the opportunity to make connections among things we are currently studying, or have studied, or current events, or real-world situations. It is a critical way for me to assess understanding of concepts and the depth of knowledge - if I tried to get substantial, meaty written output in each subject area each day, we wouldn't get very far, but with oral discussion/assessment much of the time, I am able to see what she understands, what holes need filling in, what misconceptions might need probing, and whether she has absorbed & digested information and is ready to move on, or whether we need more, or whether this is an area of particular interest we should study more or . . . . a lot of deciding what's next in content subjects is based on our discussions. It's where rabbit trails get discovered, and passions get awakened. Anyway, yeah, I think discussion is critical! I can't imagine our homeschool without it. As far as technique, this is something I'm constantly working on, to become more effective at facilitating a discussion and leading her to develop her own ideas, rather than just making pronouncements or lecturing. Work in progress. 1 Quote
regentrude Posted December 7, 2012 Posted December 7, 2012 I consider Socratic discussion extremely valuable. For any age. Clearly, the level has to be appropriate to the stage, but the Socratic method is really working. Guiding a student through the discovery of a concept instead of just handing him the concept on a silver platter in my experience greatly enhances understanding. In my job as a college physics instructor, I see the Socratic method working its magic every week. Often, just having to formulate a question helps the student sort the material in his mind and lets him come up with the answer all by himself when the question is barely out of his mouth. I use the same principles in my home school. 2 Quote
Lori D. Posted December 8, 2012 Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) Very similar to rroberts707 response, here! 🙂 Discussion is good! Just work to bring out important points to start with. Some days the results will be amazing. Others... monosyllabic. (lol) When you are just starting into discussing, you have to do a lot more hand-holding, with VERY specific, guided questions. As your students get more used to discussion and how to think through and support answers, and make connections, you can more towards more open-ended questions. Be willing to follow "bunny trails" that pop up with your students' answers -- those sometimes provided the riches and most meaningful discussions of all. And yes, be sensitive to the fact that there is no more discussion to be had (or wasn't any to begin with) -- that often happens. If you feel there really is something important being missed, then tentatively try coming at from a different angle giving a little background or asking how they might connect "x" and "y", or "does that literature character or that history event remind you of a movie or TV show or current event we just saw recently??". And sometimes you just need to state what the theme, the big idea, or the connection is directly and just move on. Starting with discussing something visual, such as a movie, or TV show, or even a picture book, can help students "click" easier with discussion. I know a number of people have mentioned that the Movies as Literature program was a VERY helpful starting point to then move into discussing Literature. You might find it helpful to flip through that book to get a feel for what a series of guided questions might look like... Socratic questions are merely ones that prompt further detail/clarification, or require the "question-ee" (lol) to support/prove their statements, or are open-ended to encourage discussion and thoughtful reflection. (Here is a handy pdf that shows what these types of questions look like.) Certainly they can be helpful. I also found that discussion (not comprehension) questions written specifically for a work of literature or for the history text could also be handy in helping me guide discussion, esp. if DSs were giving me "the blank look". Many of SWB's questions for the logic stage are specific literature-based types of Socratic questions. You can see that SWB uses these types of questions, even if she may not have referred specifically to "Socratic Method" of questioning in the lecture -- perhaps she avoided it specifically to keep people from thinking of these questions as a "formula" or as a rigid series of questions that "all must be asked/answered, there! we're done with discussion; I can check THAT off the list..." :tongue_smilie: Enjoy your discussions! Warmest regards, Lori D. Edited January 22, 2019 by Lori D. 2 Quote
Cynful Posted December 8, 2012 Posted December 8, 2012 Lori, those are great examples. Can anyone else recommend specific curriculum that does this or encourages/teaches/holds my hand for these discussions? Thanks, Quote
Chrysalis Academy Posted December 8, 2012 Posted December 8, 2012 Reading Strands (from the people who produce Writing Strands) does a good job guiding you through Socratic questioning. MCT language arts - all the materials, but especially the Literature, is chock-full of Bloom Taxonomy/Socratic questioning techniques. Quote
5LittleMonkeys Posted December 8, 2012 Posted December 8, 2012 Just seconding Reading Strands. It was the first book on Socratic discussions that I read and it was clear cut and easy to implement right away...it's also fairly inexpensive. Quote
Lori D. Posted December 8, 2012 Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) On 12/7/2012 at 6:11 PM, Lucidity said: Can anyone else recommend specific curriculum that does this or encourages/teaches/holds my hand for these discussions? For Literature, I really like the challenger level guides in the Discovering Literature series by Garlic Press Publishers; they consistently have the best real *discussion* (not comprehension) questions to give you great ideas for discussing each and every chapter. And in this past post, I listed things you look for when you annotate while reading Literature -- but you might be able adapt that list and use it a bit more broadly for just ideas of what to look for as you read and to give you ideas for specific questions to guide discussion... For some reason, I'm drawing a blank at the moment on specific History and Science suggestions... Edited January 22, 2019 by Lori D. Quote
kalanamak Posted December 10, 2012 Posted December 10, 2012 I found this interesting: http://www.garlikov.com/Soc_Meth.html Quote
scrapbookbuzz Posted December 12, 2012 Posted December 12, 2012 Sonlight provides questions to pretty much everything that is assigned. Sometimes I follow those questions, sometimes I ask my own. But even if I get a monosyllabic answer, or a three word answer (ie, "They're being stupid."), I'll ask, "That very well could be, but why do you think it's stupid? What was their reason for doing that? Had something happened that encouraged them to act that way?") To answer your original question, I think Socratic discussion is ESSENTIAL. It doesn't have to take hours and hours but I would much rather my kids be able to have a knowledgeable discussion about a subject than just memorize an answer for a test only to turn around and forget it once they put it on the test paper. (Can you tell I'm not a big fan of written tests?) Quote
AngelBee Posted January 3, 2013 Posted January 3, 2013 Tapestry of Grace encourages Socratic Discussions and offers teachers notes to do so. Link from TOG site: http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/loom/PDFs/socratic.pdf Quote
JennW in SoCal Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 We were just talking with our 2 college boys over Christmas dinner about the things I got right in homeschooling. They both agreed that the countless hours of discussion and conversation was the best thing my dh and I did for them. They believe it was the key to learning how to think for themselves, and in developing their skills to articulate and defend their opinions. They also believe it has made them better writers and was no small part in learning about history, literature and science. The skill to participate in discussions is important in many college classes and in the real world -- and it is a skill many public school kids lack because they are taught to the test. It might help to take away the word "Socratic" and simply focus on just talking about anything and everything. Don't rely on lists of questions in curricula or text books or other teaching aides because those lists will limit the conversations you have. Instead ask your own "I wonder" questions out loud and talk about people's ideas for the answer. Listen to what your children have to say and when they randomly know something you don't, ask them where they learned it. It will surprise you what they do pick up that you hadn't planned for in your homeschool planning. Talk about characters you like in a book and why. Your child may balk at getting grilled about every book they are reading, but making it a conversation won't be so threatening. Talk about movies, talk about stupid plot points, talk about choices screenwriters make in adapting books to film. Sometimes there isn't that much to talk about, so let it go. Sometimes the conversation about a book, a movie, a lecture, a visit to a museum happens long after the actual event -- go with it and talk when the conversation starts up. You might be making dinner, you might be navigating the worst traffic during rush hour, but go with it. My kids still like to talk about everything they see and do. I get text messages from them about their classes or about books they are reading whether for pleasure or for class. One of my son will regularly ask me about what I'm reading -- he and I trade books all the time and still discuss them in depth. 5 Quote
swellmomma Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 I find it important enough that although I suck at leading it I have the kids take online lit classes that utilize socratic discussion every week to discussion the literature. I think it is important for kids to think through what they are reading/studying and put their own thoughts together about it without simply spewing back the answers they were spoonfed. That is how I was taught and I still struggle to be able to discuss lit etc as a result. Quote
Elizabeth in MN Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 It's the main way I get my dd to dive into things and really think about them. 1 Quote
Annabel Lee Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 Swellmomma, what co. do you use for the online classes, and how do you like it? Quote
swellmomma Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 Swellmomma, what co. do you use for the online classes, and how do you like it? We take classes through the school board we are registered with. We enjoy them, the kids were hesitant when I signed them up for them in 1st term but they have no selected the ones they want for 2nd term and are eager to begin them Quote
Earthmerlin Posted September 21, 2016 Posted September 21, 2016 I'm intrigued by this thread & wonder how to bring it into our home discussions. Any leads for questions that a young 7 year old can access? Quote
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