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Saying No to College


Barbara H
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I don't agree that college is for every one. There are those who will do well in apprenticeships and others who will do well as entrepreneurs. There is a political aspect involved as to why we don't see more of these today so I can't get into it here. But there is more to life than 4 years of college then spending the rest of one's life in an office of some sort.

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I think it's a very interesting article and all of those thoughts have been passed around at our dinner table. It's hard to justify the significant school debt incurred by kids who aren't even sure what they are doing in college. We are certainly not willing to go into debt for 'the experience.'

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College never was and never will be for everyone. However, IRL, I know more young people who have been successful at starting their own lives in a way they want to with college degrees (or other tech types of degrees) than without. Most without work in factories, retail, restaurants, farming or join the military (who often provides extra training). Those are fine futures for those who want them, but not quite on par with what the article implies will happen.

 

Yes, some fields can do well without a degree (internet and/or phone tech appears to be one of them), but it's not necessarily true for the rest of life. My cousin is now a police officer getting a job last year. There were two hired out of close to fifty applicants. I suppose it's a coincidence that the two hired were the only two with 4 year degrees... He's wanted to be a police officer for a while. Going to college helped him get there. He's happily paying off his college debt (which wasn't excessive).

 

Overall, the most important thing IMO is to match a student with their goals and to be intelligent about what it takes to truly reach the goal. For some this will include college. For others it won't.

 

For our personal decisions... my boys are all getting 4 year degrees. Perhaps it won't help them in their future (doubtful), but it certainly won't hurt (we work hard to avoid excessive debt). I don't buy into the "groupthink" experience at college. My two in college certainly haven't seen it.

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The exceptions do not prove the rule, i.e. the average high school or college drop out does not start a Tumblr or Facebook.

 

How do we as a culture define success? Money is usually included at least in superficial looks at who is a success. If we throw out our statistical anomalies, we have seen over and over again that the average college grad makes more money.

 

Is that a reason to go to college? I say no although it is often a reason that is given as to why one should attend college.

 

I think that all of us need to find our place. For some, that means a trek through undergrad, maybe graduate or professional school. Or maybe a licensure program at the local CC. Or maybe an apprenticeship program, formal or not.

 

College is not for everyone and it is a shame that many feel that they have no choice but to jump from high school to college without a clear vision of where they are going in life. Articles like this may give some teens and their parents pause. And that is wonderful. Unfortunately in regions of the country like mine, a lack of college degree does not necessarily open doors. The reality is that a lack of degree or licensure means working in fast food, maybe doing some landscaping or construction although the young man we know who works in golf course landscaping has had to take a number of classes at the CC in order to learn how to handle pesticides and then earn promotions to manage crews. So while he did not want to attend college in the traditional sense, the job he wanted does require some sort of post high school training.

 

I love creative people. If college is going to stifle and not help someone grow, then that person shouldn't be there. But it is does not mean that college was not valuable for me.

 

Let's all find our paths and our bliss.

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Obviously as a college consultant, I believe in the importance of post secondary education. I agree though it needs to be a personal decision based on the individual goals of the student. In my opinion, most of our kids are going to need some post secondary education - it may be a graduate degree, a four year degree, a two year degree, a tech school program, an apprenticeship, a certification training program, etc.

 

I am a bit wary of generalizing from tech careers to saying that most kids don't need college degrees. Really, even in tech careers I've seen some adults hit the wall. The skills that got them the job in their 20s may not be enough to keep it in their 40s. With the recession a lot of employers have realized they can heap on requirements and many jobs that used to require a high school degree now require a college degree (even when there is no logical reason why the job should require it!)

 

I also thought this was an interesting article about the myth of the billionare drop out. http://www.businessinsider.com/billionaire-college-drop-outs-2012-10

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The exceptions do not prove the rule, i.e. the average high school or college drop out does not start a Tumblr or Facebook.

 

How do we as a culture define success? Money is usually included at least in superficial looks at who is a success. If we throw out our statistical anomalies, we have seen over and over again that the average college grad makes more money.

 

Is that a reason to go to college? I say no although it is often a reason that is given as to why one should attend college.

 

I think that all of us need to find our place. For some, that means a trek through undergrad, maybe graduate or professional school. Or maybe a licensure program at the local CC. Or maybe an apprenticeship program, formal or not.

 

College is not for everyone and it is a shame that many feel that they have no choice but to jump from high school to college without a clear vision of where they are going in life. Articles like this may give some teens and their parents pause. And that is wonderful. Unfortunately in regions of the country like mine, a lack of college degree does not necessarily open doors. The reality is that a lack of degree or licensure means working in fast food, maybe doing some landscaping or construction although the young man we know who works in golf course landscaping has had to take a number of classes at the CC in order to learn how to handle pesticides and then earn promotions to manage crews. So while he did not want to attend college in the traditional sense, the job he wanted does require some sort of post high school training.

 

I love creative people. If college is going to stifle and not help someone grow, then that person shouldn't be there. But it is does not mean that college was not valuable for me.

 

Let's all find our paths and our bliss.

 

 

I agree with everything Jane said. On a high school education alone with no post-high school education, most kids will not be able to get ahead. I wish it were not so, but high schools have become bastions of the "one size fits all" philosophy of course offerings. As a result, there is no specialization allowed that might make a person more qualified for post-high school employment in certain careers. My parents, on the other hand, had virtually classical educations in their high school in the late 50's/early 60's, were allowed to specialize (literally picked a major and like college, there were certain courses, ie. Gen-Ed, that everyone took while electives comprised a huge offering of skills pursuit) and came out ready for great jobs. My mom was offered a position with Simplicity or Butterick (can't remember which one) pattern companies as a designer straight out of high school because of the level of sewing and fashion design she had at her school. My dad aced the entrance exam to the missle technician program in the Air Force (he took a huge amount math but also metal working, three years of mechanical drafting, and physics in addition to his Latin and what not) and entered at a higher pay scale then his friends who joined the military without specialization. However, this kind of track option in education has been 100% eliminated in Michigan schools except the few that allow their students to spend the last two years of school at the Vo-Tech center...unfortunately, while I have a high respect for that center because there seems to be a high level of teaching and learning going on there, the reality is that in comparison to what was offered there 20 years ago, their programs have dwindled greatly.

 

The additional problem we have in Michigan is the economy. A huge % of the decent paying jobs that were vo-tech/trade/apprentice options are gone and they aren't coming back. On top of that, the high unemployment rate has meant that employers who are hiring have been able to fill their positions with people with degrees even if the degree isn't necessarily required to do the job. But, they consider it bang for the buck. If I'm going to pay X, I'm going to hire the most highly trained individual I can get to do X. Since there are hundreds of applicants for every job opening, I can get a person with experience and a degree. It's an employer's market. Thus, the adults with no or limited post-high school training, can't find work. Of course, this trickles down to mean that high school teens and recent high school grads are in an even worse boat because they are competing for work with A. adults who have experience in something and B. adults who have a lot of experience in something plus they have a degree behind their name.

 

Unfortunately, for many Michigan kids, it means jumping through at least two years of community college and in most cases, four years of uni if they can manage it, regardless of what they want to do as a life career choice. I am NO fan of this. However, there isn't anything in the short term that can be done to rectify the situation.

 

Given what it costs for licensing and business start up in this heavily regulated, loot and pillage small businesses for every tax dollar you can possibly drain from their treasury, state...entrepreneurialship is not an option for most teens unless they just happen to have parents who can foot that bill for them. Even then, the few start ups I've seen, fail quickly. There is a huge learning curve for understanding and obeying all of the regulations. Many young adults will have a great idea and try to run with it, but do not have a clue about good accounting practices, legal issues, articles of incorporation, liability, OSCHA, etc. Those who really want to start a business in this state, should find a good community college and take every business course offered plus spend some time hanging out with small business owners. It would save a lot of time, money, and heartache.

 

Faith

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Thanks for sharing this. Becoming a billionaire has never been a goal of anyone in my family, but the article is nice to have for busting the myth that it is more common than not.

 

 

While IMO going to a $30k/year college and majoring in hmm Art History shows one's parents have more money than good sense (unless there's a lucrative gig for those degrees, tell me because that example is true) I also see how college is important if you want to get into a career with advanced degrees: medicine, law, applied sciences and such. However, I think it is insane that employers are requiring Bachelor's degrees to work in entry level jobs, because in my brain "entry level" is "no previous experience."

 

OTOH, the billionaire drop-out isn't an average student. They have big ideas before entering college and find that the education their peers need isn't applicable to what they want to do. For some people, dropping out is worth the risk if being blocked from advancement due to lack of formal training by at least some employers is something you're willing to deal with. Bill Gates/Steve Jobs could drop out because the colleges they went to didn't even have the classes or materials they were working with to build their technologies and their families had the money to get them back in for a different career if the start-up fell through. Not something the average parent can do.

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OTOH, the billionaire drop-out isn't an average student. They have big ideas before entering college and find that the education their peers need isn't applicable to what they want to do. For some people, dropping out is worth the risk if being blocked from advancement due to lack of formal training by at least some employers is something you're willing to deal with. Bill Gates/Steve Jobs could drop out because the colleges they went to didn't even have the classes or materials they were working with to build their technologies and their families had the money to get them back in for a different career if the start-up fell through. Not something the average parent can do.

 

 

:iagree: And these types, while out there, are as rare as those who win the major lotteries. If you are parenting one, great! ;) Many of us are not.

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While IMO going to a $30k/year college and majoring in hmm Art History shows one's parents have more money than good sense (unless there's a lucrative gig for those degrees, tell me because that example is true) I also see how college is important if you want to get into a career with advanced degrees: medicine, law, applied sciences and such. However, I think it is insane that employers are requiring Bachelor's degrees to work in entry level jobs, because in my brain "entry level" is "no previous experience."

 

 

I think this change is because the high schools are passing almost anyone with a pulse.

A college degree - any major - shows (in theory) that you're capable of learning... and of dealing with a bureaucracy. These are the skills that the degree shows. A high school degree doesn't show much any more. :(

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We've been on both sides of the college question. Dh left school at 16 & has a trade certificate that required a five year (10k hour) apprenticeship. I went directly to college after highschool & have a BS with some masters study as well. Next week we attend dd's university graduation. Ds#1 has no plans to ever attend uni & instead has chosen to do apprenticeship. Ds#2 will most likely follow in the footsteps of his father & brother. I can see ds#2 earning a degree, but only after finishing an apprenticeship & working in his trade for a few years. Lucky for us, New Zealand still has apprenticeships. They are not as plentiful as when dh left school in the mid-1960s, but they do exist.

 

This weekend we had a discussion on this very topic with some friends at a scout regatta. Around the table were 4 men. Two were electricians (one with a degree), one was a mechanical engineer, & one was a carpenter. All four men had completed apprenticeships. All of them have been able to provide a good lifestyle for their families. Three of the four have worked overseas at sometime during their careers. Everyone agreed that NZ was now facing a crisis as not enough students were choosing to enter the trades. Schools were encouraging students to only look at university as the next step after highschool. Doing an apprenticeship was looked down upon. We are seeing more & more companies having to look overseas (India, the Philipines, etc.) for skilled tradesmen. A university education would not give ds#1 the skills he needs to be a welder. Those skills can only be learned on the job, which an apprenticeship provides. Every day we put our lives in the hands of the tradesmen who built our cars, built our houses, maintained our vehicles, wired our houses, etc. I visit a doctor a couple times a year & I am grateful that he is well educated, but I am much more thankful for what skilled tradesmen have provided for me. It is a hard job, physically, & often dirty, but it is one to be proud of. I'll always remember a man I met when we were living in Fiji. He was an accountant from Australia. He told dh that he wished he had a job like dh as dh could show our dc the buildings he had helped to build, while this man had nothing concrete to show for his many hours of work. A university degree doesn't guarrentee a good job or job satisfaction. For some jobs, a degree is necessary & for those I fully support the idea of university. But university was never designed to be for the majority of students & should not be the main focus for highschool students.

 

JMHO,

 

PS---I am well aware that my dc have many more opportunities here in NZ than students have in the States. If we had brought up our dc in my hometown, rather than dh's hometown, my opinion would most likely be much different from what it is now. Living overseas has opened my eyes to alternative routes to success & happiness.

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Two were electricians (one with a degree), one was a mechanical engineer, & one was a carpenter. All four men had completed apprenticeships. All of them have been able to provide a good lifestyle for their families.

 

These jobs are all available in the US. ;)

 

The Mechanical Engineer must have a 4 year degree and pass an Engineering test in order to officially work as an engineer.

 

The Electricians can either do a certification program through tech schools, community colleges (both of which I personally consider equivalent to a 4 year degree for their path even though they aren't technically 4 year degrees) OR can occasionally get their certification through an electrical union (and apprenticeship) if they are fortunate enough to get in. In our area, this runs in families - and even then - is tough to get in. The last kid I knew who did this said they accepted two his year (he was the only one from our school). His dad is an electrician in the union. In other areas, perhaps this route is easier.

 

The carpenter needs no further schooling - just on the job training. We have several graduates go on and do this each year, but lately, the economic downturn has made this iffy for those already on the job and those wanting to go into it. Our school provides wood shop classes (up to Wood IV) for kids to get some training for this. We also provide intros to welding and electricity. These are electives kids can take.

 

We're fairly rural, so many people do things for themselves rather than hiring others. Many trades are overpopulated with people. If I were to want a handyman for anything from painting to construction or plumbing I could pick up the local ad paper and have my choice of several - plus - I know some who don't really advertise. However, hubby does all of this stuff for our house, so we don't need to spend the $$ hiring anyone. New construction needs people and older folks or the few non do-it-yourselfers keep the others going, but I don't think many are getting "rich" off their jobs. Some are far from it and go around actively job hunting (driving around and personally asking). Right now, some have traveled a few hours away to assist with rebuilding from Sandy (hurricane that hit the coast).

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The carpenter needs no further schooling - just on the job training. We have several graduates go on and do this each year, but lately, the economic downturn has made this iffy for those already on the job and those wanting to go into it. Our school provides wood shop classes (up to Wood IV) for kids to get some training for this. We also provide intros to welding and electricity. These are electives kids can take.

 

Right now, some have traveled a few hours away to assist with rebuilding from Sandy (hurricane that hit the coast).

 

Ds#2 is in PS & will start year 11 in February. The only required courses at Boys High for Y11 are English & Maths. For his other 4 classes he has chosen Science, Physical Education, Business Studies, & Advanced Engineering. He really should be taking Graphics (tech. drawing) again, but he did not enjoy graphics this year, even though he loved graphics in Y9. He is really excited about Business Studies & as we can see him someday owning his own business, we've agreed that he can take Business Studies instead of Graphics. His choices for Y11 are very important as this could possibly be his final year of highschool. Ds#2 could choose to begin an apprenticeship the following year instead of staying in PS for Y12 & Y13. If he stays in PS, ds#2 will have the option of doing his pre-trade studies during those final 2 years, including work experience, completing some of the hours required for his apprenticeship. Ds#1 was credited with 1000 hours for the work experience he did during his pre-trade engineering course.

 

Here in NZ many tradesmen are having to travel for jobs that pay $$$$$$. Yes, six figure incomes require long hours & sometimes working away from home, but big salaries in the business world require that as well. The Christchurch rebuild will require many more skilled trademen than are currently avaiable in NZ & will provide jobs for at least a decade. Dh has turned down at least 3 job offers this year alone to work in CHCH that would pay twice what he is making jobbing here at home.

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Our school allows seniors to take just 4 courses IF they passed all their earlier courses giving them enough credits. Many take advantage of this and pick up a job or some other cc classes during what would have been their school day.

 

We also offer Tech Prep courses in culinary arts, law enforcement, diesel mechanics and a couple of others I'm not thinking of this morning. Local schools join together for this and juniors/seniors in good standing can take half their school day each year to do these specialized training programs. It's a nice offering.

 

With our lower academic kids (many shine in the above offerings and wood/welding/electric, etc) I only wish the state would realize they don't need indepth classes in things like Bio and Alg 2. It's good for them to have conceptual classes (what our school used to offer), but now our state is switching to insisting that ALL kids pass state tests in various subjects - and those tests aren't at a "basic" level anymore. Aside from that, my school has nice offerings for trade bound kids. What my school is missing is more indepth classes for higher academic students. We have them in name (sort of), but not in content. The common belief is that our kids "can't do that." Some could - if more were expected and offered.

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With our lower academic kids (many shine in the above offerings and wood/welding/electric, etc) I only wish the state would realize they don't need indepth classes in things like Bio and Alg 2. It's good for them to have conceptual classes (what our school used to offer), but now our state is switching to insisting that ALL kids pass state tests in various subjects - and those tests aren't at a "basic" level anymore. Aside from that, my school has nice offerings for trade bound kids. What my school is missing is more indepth classes for higher academic students. We have them in name (sort of), but not in content. The common belief is that our kids "can't do that." Some could - if more were expected and offered.

 

 

The only problem I see with this is the way it can limit students who change their minds midstream. Say a 9th grader thinks he wants to do the lower academic route and go into welding and is allowed to skip Biology, no more math after Algebra 1 and Geometry, but in 12th grade changes his mind. He now has no time to take several semesters worth of math and science in order to be competitive with the higher academic track peers applying to the same colleges.

 

Even if he finishes all four years of high school with his job skills and diploma and goes out into the workforce, at this point he does not meet the entry requirements to get into college and would need to now pay college tuition rates to take the Algebra 2 and Biology required for undergraduate admissions, which should have been free because they're "basic" in the sense that you'll need them to move on to the next level of academics.

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The only problem I see with this is the way it can limit students who change their minds midstream. Say a 9th grader thinks he wants to do the lower academic route and go into welding and is allowed to skip Biology, no more math after Algebra 1 and Geometry, but in 12th grade changes his mind. He now has no time to take several semesters worth of math and science in order to be competitive with the higher academic track peers applying to the same colleges.

 

Even if he finishes all four years of high school with his job skills and diploma and goes out into the workforce, at this point he does not meet the entry requirements to get into college and would need to now pay college tuition rates to take the Algebra 2 and Biology required for undergraduate admissions, which should have been free because they're "basic" in the sense that you'll need them to move on to the next level of academics.

 

 

Our kids were never allowed to skip Bio entirely - it was just more of a conceptual course than an in-depth course.

 

And... the kids in our lower level classes are pretty much incapable of going the college route. Even the academic part of cc would be too much for them. Kids who are able to handle higher academics are in mid-level classes and can go either route. They do the higher academic (not AP level) Bio and must go through Alg 2. They choose their route through their electives and can head into trades or less selective colleges.

 

But, back to the lower level kids... even now that the state says they MUST pass a high level Bio and Alg 2 doesn't mean it's going to happen. It isn't. They can't and a law will never change that fact. Plain and simply, not everyone is capable of that level of memorization or comprehension. So... they are in classes having their self-worth really challenged, will end up without a diploma as soon as the law goes into effect (a couple years yet), and then will be turned loose to find a job without a high school diploma. I see no good coming from that. It was much preferable when they had lower level comprehendable classes and got a diploma allowing them to feel better about themselves knowing their niche wasn't as "despicable" in our society. These are almost always our behavior problems in our school and it's because they'd rather get into trouble than just sit there with the knowledge that they can't keep up. The classes are above their heads, they see others succeeding at it, feel miserable, and end up acting out or hiding in drugs. Put the same kid in a trade class and they often shine with 100% different behavior, but that's their only "escape" at school.

 

My belief remains the same. ALL people are valuable to our society (terrorists excepted) and will do best when aimed toward their niche. It does NOT work to insist all kids fit in the same square or round holes.

 

In many countries, they realize this and allow the tracking that I think needs to happen in our country. It used to, but it's being eliminated.

 

And for that rare chap who was just pretending to be incapable and changes his mind? Community colleges allow for that. The difference now will be that he will have to study even longer so he can get his GED first.

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Great article. I see it as a way of constructing one's own college education...something meaningful and relevant. I somethimes fantasize about what kind of education I could construct for my college age son for the thousands of dollars we are spending on each year's college tuition.

 

If there had been an internet back when homeschooling began, I bet we would have seen very similar pros and cons presented in the discussion of homeschooling.

 

The fact is that the student loan bubble will eventually pop. People will start looking for options other than the standard four year university and the self constructed education will eventually become widely accepted by employers. I do think it is possible for a young person to build a very interesting and dynamic resume through the right kind of travel, work and volunteer experiences.

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Um, I think those guys had a little something else going for them. Bill G and Mark Z dropped out of Harvard, not the local CC after having failed Math 100.

 

Of course college is not for every. single. person. However, most people who drop out of college are not Bill Gates. Even my dyslexic self can do the math there.

 

ETA: I went the pop culture route with this little bit of rhetoric:

 

Natalie Portman: Harvard grad

Jodie Foster: Yale grad

Brooke Sheilds: Princeton grad

Lindsay Lohan: No grad

Abbie Lee Miller: No grad

 

:)

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Again, college is not supposed to be used as a requirement for professional work that does not involve formal research or board examinations. Examples of work that does not require college include acting, business management, computer programming, professional sports, and so on. However, if research is an important component, such as analysis of a whole industry in a country or field work, a study of dozens of theater groups in the country, development of a programming language, or medical studies involving sports performance, then a college degree will be important.

 

Also, foundation or basic math subjects are not supposed to be part of college degree programs. If any, they are pre-requisites or part of general education in secondary school.

 

For different types of work there should be different types of schools or training centers. Examples include banking schools, computer programming training centers, sports clinics, theater groups, conservatories, and so on. Any awards or recognition should also vary: usually degrees for research-based work, diplomas or certification for others, etc.

 

A very good educational system will also provide modular approaches and flexibility, such that what is learned for certification can be credited in a degree program, etc. With that, a college degree should not be watered down or used as some catch-all requirement for any type of profession.

 

Finally, one article reveals that only around 7 pct of people worldwide have college degrees. (Also, as a side note, more than 60 pct of human beings earn only around two dollars a day.) Given that, the idea that college is superfluous or not necessary should be considered.

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A very good educational system will also provide modular approaches and flexibility, such that what is learned for certification can be credited in a degree program, etc. With that, a college degree should not be watered down or used as some catch-all requirement for any type of profession.

 

 

 

This is possible in the New Zealand tertiary education system. Dd earned her Diploma of Marine Studies this time last year when she completed the 2 year program. She elected to study one more year to earn her BSc-Biology. Prior to beginning her diploma program she had completed three certificates at our local polytech. All of the qualifications are recognised by employers & depending on the job, sometimes a certificate or diploma is more desirable than a degree. Ds#1 will earn a level 4 certificate in Heavy Fabrication when he completes his apprenticeship. To earn a diploma of mechanical engineering requires only one more year's fulltime study. One year's study after earning his diploma would earn a degree. It is possible to earn a degree by attending university directly after finishing highschool & this requires 3-4 years' study. I prefer the diploma to degree route as it usually entails more practical knowledge & allows students who for one reason or another can't commit to the full 3-4 years all at once to complete a recognised qualification, rather than dropping out of uni with nothing to show for your time there except a huge student loan.

 

Growing up in America, the way the NZ education system works is completely foreign to what I knew. The fact that highschool is 3-5 years long & there is no shame in leaving after only 3 years of highschool took a bit of getting used to. I have come to see this as a very good option as it allows for more flexibility & individualisation of education in the mid to late teen years. I believe that the American education system would benefit from looking closer at education systems that provided such options rather than push everyone to fit the same "go to uni" mold.

 

JMHO,

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The fact that highschool is 3-5 years long & there is no shame in leaving after only 3 years of highschool took a bit of getting used to. I have come to see this as a very good option as it allows for more flexibility & individualisation of education in the mid to late teen years. I believe that the American education system would benefit from looking closer at education systems that provided such options rather than push everyone to fit the same "go to uni" mold.

 

JMHO,

 

:iagree:

 

But, since my guys are in the US and may or may not leave it in their adult lives, we're sticking with the college route for them since they want it and many higher level jobs require it either in writing or in reality (like my cousin and one other getting the two police jobs since they were the two with 4 year degrees).

 

I'll also admit to being very pro "college experience" having had a great 4 years myself (hubby and my parents too) and hearing of the great experiences my older two are having. To us, there is more to college than "just" the credentialing. It's a time to enjoy life with extra curriculars and take classes with peers both in and out of their major field of study while not really having much of expectations (mortgage, family, true "work" life (mine do work-study, but that's different IMO)).

 

If my kids didn't want college, then we'd allow that as it is their life, not mine, but mine were raised to expect college and all that goes with it (study and extra experience options). They've looked forward to it for some time and the two there aren't disappointed.

 

I definitely agree that not all kids need to be on that route, want that route, or even need the full 4 years of high school if preferring a different direction.

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Growing up in America, the way the NZ education system works is completely foreign to what I knew. The fact that highschool is 3-5 years long & there is no shame in leaving after only 3 years of highschool took a bit of getting used to. I have come to see this as a very good option as it allows for more flexibility & individualisation of education in the mid to late teen years. I believe that the American education system would benefit from looking closer at education systems that provided such options rather than push everyone to fit the same "go to uni" mold.

 

That is something I like about the German system.

Students who want to go to a university attend a college prep high school and graduate after 12th grade with a diploma that allows them entry to university.

Students who do not want to go to university attend a different branch of high school and graduate after 10th grade with a diploma that allows them to enter vocational training or apprenticeship. Students who later change their mind can complete a three year program to graduate with the college prep degree, or can take the exit exams after independent study.

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That is something I like about the German system.

Students who want to go to a university attend a college prep high school and graduate after 12th grade with a diploma that allows them entry to university.

Students who do not want to go to university attend a different branch of high school and graduate after 10th grade with a diploma that allows them to enter vocational training or apprenticeship. Students who later change their mind can complete a three year program to graduate with the college prep degree, or can take the exit exams after independent study.

 

Dh has colleagues from Germany and after extensive xoncersations, is convinced that while no system is perfect because there are too many variables amongst students, that Germany's track system is definitely an excellent approach.

 

The one thing that is certain is that what we do have in the nation is failing more students than it helps succeed, or at least this is very true our local PS's when one looks at the statistics and what is happening in local communities.

 

Faith

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I think this change is because the high schools are passing almost anyone with a pulse.

A college degree - any major - shows (in theory) that you're capable of learning... and of dealing with a bureaucracy. These are the skills that the degree shows. A high school degree doesn't show much any more. :(

 

I agree. But a big art of the reason I homeschool is because I cannot afford the private school education that I feel is sufficient. Not at $30K/year. Even if I saved every penny and do not eat or even leave my house for the next 10 years I will not be able to afford to send my son to the nearby 4 year university or even the community college for 2 years. It is just not in the budget and probably never will be. I am saddened that my son will have to take out loans and graduate with that much debt just to prove he can learn.

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I agree. But a big art of the reason I homeschool is because I cannot afford the private school education that I feel is sufficient. Not at $30K/year. Even if I saved every penny and do not eat or even leave my house for the next 10 years I will not be able to afford to send my son to the nearby 4 year university or even the community college for 2 years. It is just not in the budget and probably never will be. I am saddened that my son will have to take out loans and graduate with that much debt just to prove he can learn.

 

 

Pending your income and his stats, he might not need much in loans. There are a few schools (highly selective, so need good stats) who are still 100% need schools without loans and sometimes Pell Grants and similar cover the other part.

 

While my boys go to schools where they do have the basic federal loans, I don't feel taking them will be horrible for them in life. So far, both are planning careers where the loans are an investment and should pay off nicely.

 

Hubby graduated from college with almost as much in loans as my boys will have. We paid them off fairly easily and have reaped the extra earnings every year since.

 

DON'T sign up for 100K+ in loans, of course. IMO that's a mistake. But having < 40K in loans should be do-able. Mine will have a bit less than that from undergrad. Theirs will be in the region of 25K. The key is to pick schools carefully according to their stats and goals.

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I agree with Creekland. Many times we hear the horror stories of the student loan business as if this is the norm or the average debt for the majority of college students. This isn't the case. The average debt is well below $20,000.00 and the horror stories generally occur from not making wise choices. The worst horror story I know of personally is my niece who went to a private college for an early elementary teaching degree - positions that do not typically pay really high or at least not until one has accumulated many years of experience - because grandpa wanted her to go to his alma mater even though she could have attended Clemson University and lived at home with only $1000.00 per year to pay after all of her merit and financial aid. $1000.00 is nothing...a campus job and working a few hours retail each summer would have taken care of it. Instead, she's $50,000.00 in debt and her starting wage as the director of a pre-school program was $23,000.00 plus medical insurance, albeit...she pays a large portion of the premium. So, now she has a very large payment to make on a small salary. She could have had that same degree out of Clemson with no debt. It was a very unwise choice on her part.

 

My dd is at the University of Michigan...top tier uni...highly ranked even in the world standings, and with her stats (a 30 on the ACT), volunteerism, extra-curriculars, etc. worked about 12-15 hrs. per week until she decided to go to paramedic school on top of full-time college, and is debt free. Not a drop of loan. We paid for paramedic school and she is working full-time right now taking a gap year, and will be back at it full-time in autumn 2013 and will still continue debt free. My other niece attended MSU with a total debt for four years of $15,000.00 Her starting wage first year out with her construction management degree was $55,000.00 a year plus benefits working for a government sub-contractor. She paid off her loans very rapidly and comfortably too.

 

It's generally all about making wise choices and applying to a couple of reasonably priced safeties, a couple of mids, and a couple of reaches. See what happens. Look at your student's goals, research the field to find out what programs are the best bang for the buck, find out if name brand college A is really needed to get ahead or not, etc. There are a lot of options out there.

 

I am no fan of big debt. But, most 20 somethings can handle a reasonable amount. One thing is for certain, the sticker price is not what you pay. The bottom line of the bill is usually much lower when all of the merit, need, grant, work study, monies are subtracted.

 

Faith

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I think this change is because the high schools are passing almost anyone with a pulse.

A college degree - any major - shows (in theory) that you're capable of learning... and of dealing with a bureaucracy. These are the skills that the degree shows. A high school degree doesn't show much any more. :(

 

 

College (uni) is the new high school.

 

Ever see one of those e-mail forwards of an "Eighth grade math test from 1925" or whatever? And it's something you realize you couldn't do on your best day?

 

Society is asking/presenting/pursuing the wrong question/answer: it isn't "everyone needs a college degree", it is "everyone needs a real elementary education."

 

 

a

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  • 3 weeks later...

Some of my DH's smartest coworkers didn't have undergrad degrees. He's in Comp Sci, so this is no joke.

 

Problem was, they eventually had to go back and check the box to continue to get raises. But it was on the company dime then.

 

There are a LOT of small businesses that it doesn't help to have a degree to run, though.

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