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Crossing the Tiber - The Master Thread


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Vatican II was a pastoral council -- I think the first one the Church has ever had. It didn't define any doctrines, and certainly didn't change the faith, but was interested in finding ways to share the riches of Catholicism more effectively with people in the modern world.

 

 

Wasn't the council of Jerusalem a pastoral council?

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Sorry, the ipad won't let me finish my post for some reason!

 

The only caveat that I have is that where ever you are choosing as a home parish, make sure you will belong to it as home. Make sure that, even if you do attend another parish for Bible study, etc., you still have opportunities to participate in the life of your home parish. You need to meet people and get involved in the community where you attend Mass, if at all possible. It makes a huge difference, IMO, especially for people transitioning from another Christian tradition. You need that sense of community and supoort and opportunities for growth and service. If none of that is at your closest parish, then you need to find another one.

 

I just know that for me, I am a lot more likely to actively participate at a closer parish than one I have to drive to. So you have to know yourself and weigh that carefully also.

I agree.

 

When we went through RCIA, we considered a parish -- much larger but but further away.

 

Our local parish churches (there are two) are each within a very easy distance but it's small and I admit to not being sure it would teach enough, whatever "enough" was.

 

We did know, because of many circumstances, we would regularly attend at our local parish. But we visit fairly often at the larger parish because we have family and other things in the area. We went back and forth deciding for a couple of weeks. Finally, we ended up at the classes in our local parish.

 

I cannot say enough about how valuable it was to meet people in our local parish. While I didn't feel like I learned anything that was very new (we were converting, so had done a lot of reading before even thinking of RCIA as an option), it was still everything to us that Avila just mentioned. If the local parish isn't offering what is needed, then of course go out and find one that does. But for us, I'm so glad we got over our initial reservations. :)

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Wasn't the council of Jerusalem a pastoral council?

I think that phrase could be used in a few different ways. But it's my understanding that the description of Vatican II as a "pastoral council" means that it wasn't called to address some specific disputed issue(s) in the Church. For instance, the Council of Jerusalem responded to the question of the Mosaic laws, and the First Council of Nicaea condemned the Arian heresy. Blessed John XXIII didn't put any such issues on the table when he called the Second Vatican Council.

 

Here are a few more links to materials related to the Council, from EWTN's document library:

 

Documents of the Second Vatican Council

 

The Ecclesiology of Vatican II -- Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI), 2001

Vatican II Praised Eastern Traditions -- Pope John Paul II, 1995

 

What Went Wrong With Vatican II -- excerpt from a book by the late Dr. Ralph McInerney

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Hey Faith, I'm assuming you wanted the faith based reads to be an optional mini challenge of the 52 books challenge so I mentioned it over in the Book a Week thread, since had planned on doing a C.S. Lewis read anyway. Yes? Or were you wanting to make it part of the social group to discuss there if and when they come back up? I'm flexible.

 

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Oops! That didn't work! I was trying to quote Robin and then reply. Not good that this kind of things. Anyway, Robin asked if the 10 Catholic books challenge would be part of the 52 books challenge or just something on Crossing the Tiber. I am open to whatever works for anyone. Maybe we could do both?

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Okay - brain just exploded Faith... How about since this was your idea you can handle the book thing here in the Crossing the Tiber for those who don't want to do the 52 books challenge. However you want to work it - casual or leading. It's up to you all. I'll handle it in the 52 books thread for those interested over there. Thanks for the idea.

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Folks, if you have a spare moment to pray for my family tonight, I would appreciate it. My mother's conitnuing care at the nursing home is at a crisis point tonight. It is fraying the relationship between my sister and myself. I could write more but it is all unimportant. If you could ask for the right words to flow from our mouths to do what is truly best for my Mom, that would be a huge comfort. Thanks.

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Folks, if you have a spare moment to pray for my family tonight, I would appreciate it. My mother's conitnuing care at the nursing home is at a crisis point tonight. It is fraying the relationship between my sister and myself. I could write more but it is all unimportant. If you could ask for the right words to flow from our mouths to do what is truly best for my Mom, that would be a huge comfort. Thanks.

You got it. (((hugs)))

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Folks, if you have a spare moment to pray for my family tonight, I would appreciate it. My mother's conitnuing care at the nursing home is at a crisis point tonight. It is fraying the relationship between my sister and myself. I could write more but it is all unimportant. If you could ask for the right words to flow from our mouths to do what is truly best for my Mom, that would be a huge comfort. Thanks.

 

We'll offer our rosary for you tonight. (((hugs)))

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I'd be interested in reading a few books but have no interest in the 52 books challenge (when do you people have time?!?!?!). Doing both would be great.

 

 

 

It is easier than you think to find time! Though when all my kids were really little, I don't think I could have done it. But I include read alouds to the kids as well as audio books. Some books may take me 4 months to read for just a few minutes a day (usually that is something Catholic and inspirational) and others are light reads that are pretty quick to read even if your eyes only stay open for 5 minutes at night before you pass out! LOL. Then sometimes I get inspired to really dig in and read a good classic. I am not a particularly fast reader. There are some folks in the 52 Book Challenge that just knock an enormous number of books out and they aren't all easy to read either! It amazes me!

 

So should it be that starting in the new year, if you read a Catholic book you can come here to share about it? Maybe we can read a few together and have a little book discussion going on as well?

 

I am thinking that my first Catholic read will be a book I started this year but for some reason got distracted from and didn't finish. It is called Forming Intentional Disciples by Sherry Weddell. It isn't a hard read but it is sort of a how to book. If anyone wants to join me in discussing it, I plan to start on Jan. 1!

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Folks, if you have a spare moment to pray for my family tonight, I would appreciate it. My mother's conitnuing care at the nursing home is at a crisis point tonight. It is fraying the relationship between my sister and myself. I could write more but it is all unimportant. If you could ask for the right words to flow from our mouths to do what is truly best for my Mom, that would be a huge comfort. Thanks.

 

 

We'll include you in our intentions tonight!

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Folks, if you have a spare moment to pray for my family tonight, I would appreciate it. My mother's conitnuing care at the nursing home is at a crisis point tonight. It is fraying the relationship between my sister and myself. I could write more but it is all unimportant. If you could ask for the right words to flow from our mouths to do what is truly best for my Mom, that would be a huge comfort. Thanks.

 

:grouphug: Prayers for you all nono!

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Sure. Let me see if I can sort it out for you. I'm a bit confused myself.

 

Within the Catholic Church there are 7 rites.

 

The Alexandrian includes the Coptic and Ethiopian Rites

The Antiochian includes the Maronite, Western Syrian and the Syro-Malankara Rites

The Armenian Rite

The Chaldean or Eastern Syran tradition includes the Chaldean and the Syro-Malabar Rite

The Byzantine Rite

The Latin Rite which includes the Roman rite (most US Catholics belong here), the Ambrosian Rite, the Aquiline Rite, the Rite of Braga and Mozarabic rite

 

Looking at the Latin - Roman Rite we have several traditional masses.

The Pr-Tridentine mass (pre 1570)

The Tridentine mass (1570-1970)

The Mass of Paul VI (1970 to present) aka Norvos Ordo which in English means New Order of the Mass.

The Anglican use which is specific to the Anglican churches in communion with Rome.

 

After Vatican II the Mass of Paul VI (aka the NO mass) became widely used as the Ordinary Form of the Mass. As I mentioned earlier change is not easy. There were a lot of people who wanted the Tridintine mass back. (The Tridintine mass is also knows as the Traditional Latin Mass - TLM) So the Bishops agreed that the TLM could be used with permission in certain churches. But it was not to be the norm. So it became the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

 

There is a bit of bristling between the TLMers and the NOers. I imagine the same thing happend in 1570 when the mass was changed then.

 

Without going back to read allt he posts again, There is one lady who has numerous churches available to her. She goes to the the Roman rite and the Byzantine rite (I think that was it) along with the EO rite called the Divine Liturgy.

 

The EO church has several churches in communion. If you scroll down about 3/4 of the way you'll find the listing of them.

 

The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church ( informally called the EO here) were the one ancient church that Jesus founded. The Great Schism occurred in 1054 that split the church into two churches. The RC says they left, the EO says we left. Greater theologists than I debate the split with regularity. I'm not about to go there in this thread. But you can look into it if you are so inclined.

 

Did I answer your question or did I just give you more questions?

 

ETA: No, I didn't have all of this in my head. I presented quite a bit of it to my confirmation class about 3 weeks ago so it was fresh and I used my notes. :coolgleamA:

 

 

Wow! Thank you, Chucki! That was very helpful. So, earlier someone mentioned high Mass and low Mass. Are those variations of the TLM or the NO? Or am I way off?

 

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Folks, if you have a spare moment to pray for my family tonight, I would appreciate it. My mother's conitnuing care at the nursing home is at a crisis point tonight. It is fraying the relationship between my sister and myself. I could write more but it is all unimportant. If you could ask for the right words to flow from our mouths to do what is truly best for my Mom, that would be a huge comfort. Thanks.

Hugs and prayers, nono.

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So should it be that starting in the new year, if you read a Catholic book you can come here to share about it? Maybe we can read a few together and have a little book discussion going on as well?

 

 

 

We were reading and discussing the CCC as a group prior to the change over. And as this thread hasn't gotten deleted perhaps if OJ never gets the social groups up we can just have a Catholic book thread.

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Folks, if you have a spare moment to pray for my family tonight, I would appreciate it. My mother's conitnuing care at the nursing home is at a crisis point tonight. It is fraying the relationship between my sister and myself. I could write more but it is all unimportant. If you could ask for the right words to flow from our mouths to do what is truly best for my Mom, that would be a huge comfort. Thanks.

 

 

 

Praying!

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Folks, if you have a spare moment to pray for my family tonight, I would appreciate it. My mother's conitnuing care at the nursing home is at a crisis point tonight. It is fraying the relationship between my sister and myself. I could write more but it is all unimportant. If you could ask for the right words to flow from our mouths to do what is truly best for my Mom, that would be a huge comfort. Thanks.

 

 

Yes, I will pray for you and your family. May you all have wisdom to know what will be best for your mom and charity in your relationships with each other.

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We'll offer our rosary for you tonight. (((hugs)))

 

What does it mean to offer a rosary? What is a rosary? I Googled it, but I'm not confident in the reliability of the sources that popped up.

 

We have a prayer in our Orthodox prayer book that goes like this, "Hail! Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee, 'O Virgin Theotokos. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, for thou hast borne the Saviour of our souls."

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Here's a diagram. They're beads, much like your prayer ropes, but the beads have separations, and a crucifix. You pray different prayers at different beads.

 

We have the Hail Mary, "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God (which translates to Theotokos), pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

 

I was offering all of our prayers in the rosary for her intentions (situation she needs prayer for).

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Folks, if you have a spare moment to pray for my family tonight, I would appreciate it. My mother's conitnuing care at the nursing home is at a crisis point tonight. It is fraying the relationship between my sister and myself. I could write more but it is all unimportant. If you could ask for the right words to flow from our mouths to do what is truly best for my Mom, that would be a huge comfort. Thanks.

Im praying for your family too! Hugs.
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We were reading and discussing the CCC as a group prior to the change over. And as this thread hasn't gotten deleted perhaps if OJ never gets the social groups up we can just have a Catholic book thread.

 

 

I'm so clueless about technology. I belonged to the Social Group but I never got notifications that it was updated and I never actually saw the group? I did just change my name (I was Drexel before) but I would love to participate in a CCC discussion/read along. Help!

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We were reading and discussing the CCC as a group prior to the change over. And as this thread hasn't gotten deleted perhaps if OJ never gets the social groups up we can just have a Catholic book thread.

 

Oh dear, I didn't mean to disrupt things. I tried to read the Catechism a Day thing that everyone was starting a few weeks ago, but it just didn't click with me. So I stopped. I just noticed this Crossing the Tiber thread and thought, yippee! Is it too much to have both the CCC and a casual book discussion thing going on too, do you think? It does seem awkward to just have this very long thread going. I have joined a couple social groups a while ago but then I cut back my on line time and didn't participate.

 

Anyway, I don't want to step on any toes! But it would be nice to have a chat about Catholic books. The 52 Book thing is fun, I love to read the reviews that other people post on their blogs, but you don't really get to have a discussion of any real depth.

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Okay, so I am full of questions lately. If we had the Social Groups up and running, I would make a separate thread with all of my questions, but since we don't...

 

What is the Catholic view of Original Sin? Do Catholics believe that Adam's guilt is passed onto humans? If they don't, then why did there need to be an Immaculate Conception?

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Here's a diagram. They're beads, much like your prayer ropes, but the beads have separations, and a crucifix. You pray different prayers at different beads.

 

We have the Hail Mary, "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God (which translates to Theotokos), pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

 

I was offering all of our prayers in the rosary for her intentions (situation she needs prayer for).

 

 

Sorry, new question, but sprung from this diagram: When you say the Creed in your personal prayers and in church do you not say the filioque, (I believe in the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father and the Son)? Do you usually say, "I believe in the Holy Spirit," without mentioning the procession of the Holy Spirit? If you don't say the filioque, do Catholics believe the filioque, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son?

 

I'm asking these things, because I know someone who might be more comfortable in the Catholic Church than in the Orthodox Church, and these would be points that would need further understanding.

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Also, the Rosary like the chotky is contemplative. Each decade of the rosary has the prayer remember and contemplate a mystery in the life of Christ.

 

 

Also, can someone elaborate on the historical roots of the rosary, and the spiritual significance? Thanks. :D

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We do say the filoque. It's addressed in the CCC, particularly 246 and 247:

 

 

246 The Latin tradition of the Creed confesses that the Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque)". The Council of Florence in 1438 explains: "The Holy Spirit is eternally from Father and Son; He has his nature and subsistence at once (simul) from the Father and the Son. He proceeds eternally from both as from one principle and through one spiration. . . . And, since the Father has through generation given to the only-begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he is eternally born, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son."75

247 The affirmation of the filioque does not appear in the Creed confessed in 381 at Constantinople. But Pope St. Leo I, following an ancient Latin and Alexandrian tradition, had already confessed it dogmatically in 447,76 even before Rome, in 451 at the Council of Chalcedon, came to recognize and receive the Symbol of 381. The use of this formula in the Creed was gradually admitted into the Latin liturgy (between the eighth and eleventh centuries). The introduction of the filioque into the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed by the Latin liturgy constitutes moreover, even today, a point of disagreement with the Orthodox Churches.

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For what it's worth, here is the Nicene Creed as recited in Mass:

 

I believe in one God, the Father almighty,

maker of heaven and earth,

of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,

the Only Begotten Son of God,

born of the Father before all ages.

God from God, Light from Light,

true God from true God,

begotten, not made, consubstantial

with the Father;

Through him all things were made.

For us men and for our salvation

he came down from heaven,

and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate

of the Virgin Mary,

and became man.

 

For our sake he was crucified

under Pontius Pilate,

he suffered death and was buried,

and rose again on the third day

in accordance with the Scriptures.

He ascended into heaven

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory

to judge the living and the dead

and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,

the Lord, the giver of life,

who proceeds from the Father and the Son,

who with the Father and the Son

is adored and glorified,

who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic,

and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins

and I look forward to the resurrection

of the dead and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

 

By the way, this is the New Roman Missal translation, which was introduced a year ago. (The words in bold are from the originating website which had the older version side-by-side with the new, bolding differences between the two. Personally, I love how the word consubstantial rolls off the tongue ... no, I'm not be sarcastic!)

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Though I should mention, with the Rosary, we tend to recite the Apostles' Creed (I say tend as I have no idea if others say the Nicene Creed; I just know every book I own says to say the Apostles' Creed). The Nicene Creed is recited in church following the priest's homily.

 

 

I'm confused. What I mean to ask is do you say the filioque in your personal prayer and/or in church and do Catholics believe the filioque?

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For what it's worth, here is the Nicene Creed as recited in Mass:

 

 

 

By the way, this is the New Roman Missal translation, which was introduced a year ago. (The words in bold are from the originating website which had the older version side-by-side with the new, bolding differences between the two. Personally, I love how the word consubstantial rolls off the tongue ... no, I'm not be sarcastic!)

 

 

OK. I posted my confused post while you were posting this one. I'm no longer confused. Thank you.

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What does it mean to offer a rosary? What is a rosary? I Googled it, but I'm not confident in the reliability of the sources that popped up.

 

We have a prayer in our Orthodox prayer book that goes like this, "Hail! Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee, 'O Virgin Theotokos. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, for thou hast borne the Saviour of our souls."

 

Jennifer,

 

I think the others answered the part about what the rosary is. My good friend who just became Orthodox this fall (I think Antiochian, but I know it is Western rite) told me they pray the rosary. She was encouraged to do so. I was surprised, thinking it was just a Catholic prayer. Maybe it is more common for Western rite Orthodox; I really don't know but I found it interesting.

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I'm confused. What I mean to ask is do you say the filioque in your personal prayer and/or in church and do Catholics believe the filioque?

I'm sorry to confuse you. I saw your second question after I posted the first and then wanted to clarify after that. In personal prayers, the only creed I pray is the Apostles' Creed when reciting the Rosary. The only time I pray the Nicene Creed, containing the filioque, is in Mass. I hope that helps.
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Jennifer, Maybe this article would answer your question.

 

http://www.catholic....tracts/filioque

 

The above page doesn't get into translation issues (probably because this is confusing enough already), but I've read elsewhere that the Latin word for "proceeds" has a somewhat different meaning from the Greek word that was used to translate it. Since the Western contingent at the time weren't strong in Greek, and the Easterners weren't strong in Latin, it didn't occur to them that they might not be talking about the same thing.

 

There are more details about this, and the ecumenical implications, at Wikipedia.

 

Hmm... maybe classical education could be part of the solution to this whole mess! :cheers2:

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The above page doesn't get into translation issues (probably because this is confusing enough already), but I've read elsewhere that the Latin word for "proceeds" has a somewhat different meaning from the Greek word that was used to translate it. Since the Western contingent at the time weren't strong in Greek, and the Easterners weren't strong in Latin, it didn't occur to them that they might not be talking about the same thing.

 

There are more details about this, and the ecumenical implications, at Wikipedia.

 

Hmm... maybe classical education could be part of the solution to this whole mess! :cheers2:

 

 

Thank you for sharing that article, ElizaGrace. I had read about the translation issue somewhere but I admit I am no expert on it. As for a solution to this mess, I actively pray for that. None of us were meant to breathe with one lung.

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The above page doesn't get into translation issues (probably because this is confusing enough already), but I've read elsewhere that the Latin word for "proceeds" has a somewhat different meaning from the Greek word that was used to translate it. Since the Western contingent at the time weren't strong in Greek, and the Easterners weren't strong in Latin, it didn't occur to them that they might not be talking about the same thing.

There are more details about this, and the ecumenical implications, at Wikipedia.

Hmm... maybe classical education could be part of the solution to this whole mess! :cheers2:

 

Thank-you for posting this, ElizaGrace! It's very helpful and quite hopeful as well. I wish we could and pray we can all be reconciled. Whenever this discussion comes up (in my own real life, not here particularly) I always think of Legolas and Gimli's coming into Lothlorien and the "pox on the stiff necks of dwarves" followed by similar imprecations on the necks of elves. ;) I am sure we will find we have all entered the golden wood when the time comes...

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Thank-you for posting this, ElizaGrace! It's very helpful and quite hopeful as well. I wish we could and pray we can all be reconciled. Whenever this discussion comes up (in my own real life, not here particularly) I always think of Legolas and Gimli's coming into Lothlorien and the "pox on the stiff necks of dwarves" followed by similar imprecations on the necks of elves. ;) I am sure we will find we have all entered the golden wood when the time comes...

 

Thank you for writing that, Caitlin. I have felt called, for many years now, to pray for the reunion of the East and West, though I have not always been as faithful as I could have in my prayers for that intention. A thousand years is long enough!!!

 

I love your golden wood analogy! May God richly bless you this Advent and always.

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Our 23yo daughter has been jobless for almost two months and has an interview this afternoon. She has filled out numerous job applications but this is her first interview. Please pray that she will do well in the interview, and that she will find a job that is well suited to her talents and personality. Thank you!

 

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