no coats in carseats?

[HappyLady]

Am I just finding out about this or is this a new thing? Some of the mom friends on Facebook are posting about it because we're starting to wear winter coats where I live.

 

Is there really proof that this is dangerous or is this another one of those "we didn't do it growing up and we're fine, but......."

[cajunrose]

I'm no expert but I would definitely say it's dangerous. The coat is padded. If you are in an accident, that padding compresses and there is a lot of sloppy space between your child and the straps.

[2girls4us]

I don't think that it's all that new. That was the recommendation when I had my first DD 10 years ago. Like the pp stated, the padding from the coat leaves lots of extra space between the straps and the child in an accident. You can put the coat on the little one to get to the car, then take it off while strapping them in, then put in on the child backwards or just use a blanket.

[MomtoCandJ]

No big puffy coats in toddler and infant seats (that is what I read anyway) you are supposed to cover them with a blanket or lay their coat on them over the straps (which is what I did) because the bulk of the coat interferes with the tightness of the straps. When dd started Headstart last year still in her toddler seat I just left it all on because they went outside to play first thing in the morning. They needed snow pants and the whole shabang and by the time she would have gotten her stuff back on she wouldn't have been able to play.

[tabrizia]

It has been a known risk at least as long as I have had kids (which is only 5 1/2 years). I remember reading about it even when pregnant with DS. A big puffy jacket can compress in an accident and allow the child to just slide out of the carseat. We always do fleece coats in the car and put on heavy winter coats when we arrive (even I do this) if we need the heavier coat.

[SKL]

They have a crash test video that involves a very loosely belted, rear-facing baby in a thick snowsuit. The dummy flies out in a front-end collision.

 

This is a case for common sense. For most kids, logistically, their legs or shoulders would have to break off in order for them to fly out just because of a padded coat or snowsuit. However, they do say that the straps should be as snug as possible to reduce injury even if the kid does not fly out. But again, you'd have to be driving at breakneck speed and then crash head-on into something.

 

But if you're doing some freeway travel and you have an accident in the icy winter, you also want your child to be warm in case it takes a while to get him out of the situation.

 

So for a very young baby/tot, yes, I'd select thinner thermal layers over a thick coat. For an older kid, it would depend on the other factors involved.

[kitten18]

I'm no expert but I would definitely say it's dangerous. The coat is padded. If you are in an accident, that padding compresses and there is a lot of sloppy space between your child and the straps.

 

I don't think that it's all that new. That was the recommendation when I had my first DD 10 years ago. Like the pp stated, the padding from the coat leaves lots of extra space between the straps and the child in an accident. You can put the coat on the little one to get to the car, then take it off while strapping them in, then put in on the child backwards or just use a blanket.

 

:iagree:

[tabrizia]

I have heard that. I didn't really follow it though. It's just too cold. I did make sure to tighten the straps as snugly as possible though.

 

If you don't want to take them out of the coat, and in really cold weather it is understandable not to want to, you can unzip their jacket, buckle under it and then zip it up over the buckle to help at least a little.

[SKL]

5 years ago, when my kids were small enough for it to matter, I had not heard of this, nor some other rules that were important in hindsight. Thankfully, devastating car accidents are rare, especially where the parents drive carefully. My kids were never in an accident until we were rear-ended when they were 4. And I don't find it useful to worry about "what could have happened."

[LifeLovePassion]

This video explains it well

[SKL]

At the risk of sounding like I don't care, I'm kind of sick of the constant "rules". When I was a baby my parents didn't have car seats nor seat belts. LOL I mean I do believe in car seats and seat belts and do my best to use them properly, but it gets to the point where there are 100,000 rules and I get sick of always finding out I'm doing it wrong.

 

I always say, the #1 way to keep kids safe while driving is to drive carefully. The risk of a kid getting seriously hurt while mom is driving properly is tiny. The idea of living our daily lives as if we could be in a 100mph head-on collision on the way to school is frankly ridiculous. If you know a tip and it's feasible to apply, fine. If not, don't lose sleep over it.

[Parrothead]

I have heard that. I didn't really follow it though. It's just too cold. I did make sure to tighten the straps as snugly as possible though.

 

Yeah, it was 7*F here this morning when we left. I was freezing in my shirt, sweater, and wool coat with the heater in the car running wide open.

[Parrothead]

At the risk of sounding like I don't care, I'm kind of sick of the constant "rules". When I was a baby my parents didn't have car seats nor seat belts. LOL I mean I do believe in car seats and seat belts and do my best to use them properly, but it gets to the point where there are 100,000 rules and I get sick of always finding out I'm doing it wrong.

 

 

Yes. Common sense has to prevail.

[Mommie_Jen]

We have always taken the coats off, buckled, the put the coats on backwards to cover them. Usually I start the car and let it warm up so they may be cold for a minute while getting in, coat off, buckled, but they are fine.

[Ellie]

I don't see how it would be possible to put children in the carseats without their coats, and to arrive at your destination and *then* do all the coats.

 

I wouldn't hesitate to keep the dc in their coats. I'd just make sure all the carseat straps are properly in place and fastened.

[AdventureMoms]

This is what I don't understand, what am I supposed to do: Leave them in the upstairs apartment while I go to the parking lot, start the car, come home and hope nobody drives off with the car? And what if it's raining and as I perform this for two (soon to be three) kids in car seats the inside of the car gets drenched and they are sitting (without their waterproof coats) on wet seats?

 

I'm all for safety, really, I try to take off their coats most of the time if it's not freezing cold. But some of the stuff I've seen on this seems to indicate if you ever let your kids ride in the car in their coats you're a terrible parent.

 

This is my third winter with three in carseats. I live in a cold climate and don't usually warm the car up first. The first year I had 3 kids 2 and under! Now I have 3 kids 4 and under. All are harnessed, two are still rear-facing. We do not wear heavy coats in the carseats.

 

If it's raining I'd put them in thin waterpoof coats. The issue is the big puffy winter coats, but if it is warm enough to rain you don't need a heavy coat for just a couple of minutes while the car warms up. I just bring jackets (rather than put them on kids/take them off/etc) when it's over 30 degrees or so. I put them in a light fleece or a sweatshirt. When it's really cold we use a carseat poncho. I made mine (two layers of heavy fleece) and you do the carseat UNDER the poncho so it doesn't interfere with the harness at all. They cost less than $5/ea to make, took almost no sewing skill (you could probably do a no-sew one) and will last DD another year or two and the twins for several more years. If they wear a light fleece coat underneath the poncho, plus hats, they are plenty warm in even the coldest weather. Plus they can unzip the ponchos (the twins could do this easily last year at age 12mo) if they get too warm. I bring their big winter coats with us if we're going to play in the snow, but the ponchos work fine for any normal in-and-out errands, playgroups, etc.

 

For babies who are in the infant seat, you can use the carseat covers that go over the whole seat "showercap style". You usually don't need anything under that, they are so warm! I've never done the full body snowsuit thing, I got one as a hand-me-down and found it so hard to use that I gave up. My babies just wore fleece pajamas or light fleece sweatpants/sweatshirts with a onesie underneath. In the very coldest weather I'd tuck a blanket under the carseat cover. Oh and the boys always wore hats because they were preemies and had no body fat that first winter.

[AdventureMoms]

.

[Impish]

We're in a colder part of the world, and yes, we take the coat off for the car seat.

 

As careful as my husband is, I don't trust the other ppl on the road. I'd rather struggle w/the coat on, coat off, coat on again than be wondering 'what if' should a tragedy occur.

[Murphy101]

At the risk of sounding like I don't care, I'm kind of sick of the constant "rules". When I was a baby my parents didn't have car seats nor seat belts. LOL I mean I do believe in car seats and seat belts and do my best to use them properly, but it gets to the point where there are 100,000 rules and I get sick of always finding out I'm doing it wrong.

 

You and me both. I'm especially jaded as I've had babies every year of the last 18 years and every year there is a new rule, many contradicting previous rules or changing back to a rule that was previously changed or or.. And I'm growing to have almost zero respect for the AAP. They are like white noise to me at this point.

[tabrizia]

This is my third winter with three in carseats. I live in a cold climate and don't usually warm the car up first. The first year I had 3 kids 2 and under! Now I have 3 kids 4 and under. All are harnessed, two are still rear-facing. We do not wear heavy coats in the carseats.

 

If it's raining I'd put them in thin waterpoof coats. The issue is the big puffy winter coats, but if it is warm enough to rain you don't need a heavy coat for just a couple of minutes while the car warms up. I just bring jackets (rather than put them on kids/take them off/etc) when it's over 30 degrees or so. I put them in a light fleece or a sweatshirt. When it's really cold we use a carseat poncho. I made mine (two layers of heavy fleece) and you do the carseat UNDER the poncho so it doesn't interfere with the harness at all. They cost less than $5/ea to make, took almost no sewing skill (you could probably do a no-sew one) and will last DD another year or two and the twins for several more years. If they wear a light fleece coat underneath the poncho, plus hats, they are plenty warm in even the coldest weather. Plus they can unzip the ponchos (the twins could do this easily last year at age 12mo) if they get too warm. I bring their big winter coats with us if we're going to play in the snow, but the ponchos work fine for any normal in-and-out errands, playgroups, etc.

 

For babies who are in the infant seat, you can use the carseat covers that go over the whole seat "showercap style". You usually don't need anything under that, they are so warm! I've never done the full body snowsuit thing, I got one as a hand-me-down and found it so hard to use that I gave up. My babies just wore fleece pajamas or light fleece sweatpants/sweatshirts with a onesie underneath. In the very coldest weather I'd tuck a blanket under the carseat cover. Oh and the boys always wore hats because they were preemies and had no body fat that first winter.

 

I have 3 5 and under, this is what we do, our car is not in a garage attached to the house, we have to walk to the car. All my kids even the 18 month old know that you take off heavy coats before getting in the car seat. They will occasionally even insist on taking off their fleece coat (which is allowed to be worn). Two of mine are still rear-facing, only one can get himself buckled on his own. It really isn't a big deal, I never used the car seat poncho, I just have fleece blankets next to the car seats as needed. My kids do not complain, have no issues and it takes us no longer then buckling them in in big heavy coats. I have done it in both a sedan and the minivan, it is far easier in the minivan, but it wasn't a big deal even in the sedan. My kids will not get into their car seats in big bulky coats, they know it is not allowed, it really doesn't take long for them to take off their own heavy coats and get into their seats. We have always done it this way.

[edeemarie]

Does this apply to booster seats too?

[Slartibartfast]

I guess I don't understand the problem with things changing as new information is found or studies are performed. If I am doing something and it is found to be "wrong" I just adjust and move on. I don't think that someone is attacking me as a parent or calling me dumb.

 

Fleece jackets are ok in a carseat. If it is just too inconvenient then put them in fleece.

 

A seatbelt saved my life, I would not for a moment hesitate in properly restraining my child.

 

And no, I was not speeding, flying 100 miles an hour or driving wrecklessly. Someone fell asleep at the wheel and just ran into me. You might be the most careful driver in the world but that doesn't account for the other drivers on the road with you.

[SKL]

To be honest, my kids preferred to take off their coats in the car even though I didn't tell them to - when they were old enough to have an opinion. As long as they were doing it themselves because they wanted to, it was not an inconvenience. And I live in the "snow belt," park outside, and do not warm up my car first. That said, if my kids were actually cold and upset about it, I'd take that into consideration, because I just don't believe someone's going to zoom up the residential streets in the wrong lane at 100mph while I'm on my way to our local destination during regular working hours. It's about as likely that we'd get stuck in the ditch in a blizzard and freeze to death without our coats.

 

But I do sympathize with the multiple babies thing. And we don't all drive a big enough vehicle to dress and undress inside. In my car, baby car seats, especially rear-facing ones, took up the whole space behind the front seats (even with the front seats pushed up as far as possible). The logistics of dressing and undressing two babies, neither of whom could walk, while in boot-deep snow, are just ridiculous, especially for a short drive at modest speeds.

[Slartibartfast]

This video explains it well

 

 

 

I like that video because she is very clear without resorting to horror scenes.

[SKL]

I like that video because she is very clear without resorting to horror scenes.

 

 

Except where she says "that is not safe at all." I mean, again, how often do we get into a situation where that much difference is going to kill a child? It's not safe at all to snugly belt up a child in a coat? All-or-nothing thinking is just unhelpful IMO.

[tabrizia]

Does this apply to booster seats too?

 

 

Technically it applies to adult seat belts as well. I try to do the same as the kids and wear a fleece in the car and put on the bulky coat when we get where we are going.

[edeemarie]

Technically it applies to adult seat belts as well. I try to do the same as the kids and wear a fleece in the car and put on the bulky coat when we get where we are going.

 

 

Thank you- that is kind of what I was thinking. If bulky coats interfere with a seat belt/ car seat straps I guess the age of a person has no effect on it. I really had never heard of this before but if we start doing this I think it will be much easier if we are ALL taking our coats off and not just the little ones. Thankfully I am making them all fleece blankets for Christmas, but maybe I should be making fleece jackets too:)

[Slartibartfast]

Except where she says "that is not safe at all." I mean, again, how often do we get into a situation where that much difference is going to kill a child? It's not safe at all to snugly belt up a child in a coat? All-or-nothing thinking is just unhelpful IMO.

 

 

She means it is not safe at all.

 

If you are driving down the road at 40 mph how severe would the accident be? Not terribly? If you are driving down the road at 40 mph and another car collides with you head-on who was also going 40 mph the impact would be as if it was 80 mph.

 

There is no "kinda" physics. It is truly all-or-nothing.

 

If correctly installed and used, child restraints reduce deaths among infants by approximately 70% and deaths among small children by between 54% and 80%.

 

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs358/en/index.html

[msjones]

I had never heard of this. We just strapped 'em in in whatever they were wearing. I do remember adjusting the straps to fit thicker coats.

[tabrizia]

To be honest, my kids preferred to take off their coats in the car even though I didn't tell them to - when they were old enough to have an opinion. As long as they were doing it themselves because they wanted to, it was not an inconvenience. And I live in the "snow belt," park outside, and do not warm up my car first. That said, if my kids were actually cold and upset about it, I'd take that into consideration, because I just don't believe someone's going to zoom up the residential streets in the wrong lane at 100mph while I'm on my way to our local destination during regular working hours. It's about as likely that we'd get stuck in the ditch in a blizzard and freeze to death without our coats.

 

But I do sympathize with the multiple babies thing. And we don't all drive a big enough vehicle to dress and undress inside. In my car, baby car seats, especially rear-facing ones, took up the whole space behind the front seats (even with the front seats pushed up as far as possible). The logistics of dressing and undressing two babies, neither of whom could walk, while in boot-deep snow, are just ridiculous, especially for a short drive at modest speeds.

 

 

The thing is, is that most deadly crashes are not at 100mph. They are at modest speeds around 30 to 35mph. You are unlikely to survive a crash at 100mph no matter what you do. Most people have time to at least brake or do some sort of defensive driving though, which reduces the speed of most accidents to around 30 to 35mph. Really you are far more likely to be hit by someone running a red light, then in a high speed chase on the highway.

[SKL]

Also, if a squishy coat is not safe, does that mean chubby kids shouldn't be allowed to be transported in cars? What about diapered kids? They must be terribly unsafe. My skinny kid in a coat had less squish than a chubby kid without a coat. I mean, there comes a point where you say "that's interesting" and then do what you want to do.

[Impish]

She means it is not safe at all.

 

If you are driving down the road at 40 mph how severe would the accident be? Not terribly? If you are driving down the road at 40 mph and another car collides with you head-on who was also going 40 mph the impact would be as if it was 80 mph.

 

There is no "kinda" physics. It is truly all-or-nothing.

 

:iagree:

Everyone determines acceptable risks for themselves. A bit of hassle is worth it, imo.

[SKL]

The thing is, is that most deadly crashes are not at 100mph. They are at modest speeds around 30 to 35mph. You are unlikely to survive a crash at 100mph no matter what you do. Most people have time to at least brake or do some sort of defensive driving though, which reduces the speed of most accidents to around 30 to 35mph. Really you are far more likely to be hit by someone running a red light, then in a high speed chase on the highway.

 

 

But if that happens, it's not going to matter whether my kid's in a coat or not.

[FO4UR]

I don't see how it would be possible to put children in the carseats without their coats, and to arrive at your destination and *then* do all the coats.

 

I wouldn't hesitate to keep the dc in their coats. I'd just make sure all the carseat straps are properly in place and fastened.

 

 

 

The problem with the bolded statement is that the heavy coats prevent the straps from being "properly in place and fastened." Try adjusting the carseat straps, as they should be, without a coat. Then try buckling the same child in with their heavy winter coat on. It's not reasonable...even if it is possible.

 

 

For little babies, Keep the pumpkin seat in the house, buckle baby in, bundle blankets around the baby. Then you pop the carseat in the car. When you arrive at your destination, you pop the pumpkin seat back out and carry baby in still bundled. I wish I were small enough for someone to carry me around in cold weather like that. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

 

For toddlers, Bundle up in everything but the coat - the hats/gloves/snowpants/etc...and throw the coat over the child (I don't even zip at this point.) and run to the car. Buckle in w/o the coat on, and then put the coat on backwards. We kept extra blankets in the van when I had 3 in 5pt harnesses. If it was REALLY cold, we warmed up the van before loading. The windows generally had to be scraped at that time anyway.

 

I still had dc in 5pt harnesses when we lived in NE OH, appropriately nick-named "The Snowbelt," and we managed. I'm getting ready to have a baby in Dec, and tbh - the winter coats + carseats is one thing I am NOT looking forward to, but as careful as I am on the road I have seen too many dangerous drivers on windy roads to chance it. (I can't help it if someone else is speeding and driving in my lane on a 2 lane road.) Those carseat straps do no good if they aren't snug and tight.

[Slartibartfast]

Also, if a squishy coat is not safe, does that mean chubby kids shouldn't be allowed to be transported in cars? What about diapered kids? They must be terribly unsafe. My skinny kid in a coat had less squish than a chubby kid without a coat. I mean, there comes a point where you say "that's interesting" and then do what you want to do.

 

 

I am sorry this isn't really very funny. Over a million children die every year in traffic accidents. Why the hyperbole?

 

 

[Slartibartfast]

But if that happens, it's not going to matter whether my kid's in a coat or not.

 

 

 

If correctly installed and used, child restraints reduce deaths among infants by approximately 70% and deaths among small children by between 54% and 80%.

 

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs358/en/index.html

 

 

[justamouse]

FOR US, this would be insanity. My kids would die of hypothermia before I got in a crash. Most days my van doesn't even get warm before we get to where we're going.

 

We wear coats in the car/seats. End of story.

[justamouse]

You and me both. I'm especially jaded as I've had babies every year of the last 18 years and every year there is a new rule, many contradicting previous rules or changing back to a rule that was previously changed or or.. And I'm growing to have almost zero respect for the AAP. They are like white noise to me at this point.

 

 

:iagree:

[SKL]

I don't know how it is where you all live, but I have NEVER encountered another car speeding toward me (the wrong way) in my lane. I'm 46 and I've driven many hundreds of thousands of miles. I'm sure it happens, but am I going to take up x minutes out of every day - hours out of every month - days out of every year - to prepare for this extremely rare occurrance (that still might kill us anyway)? Nope. If you want to, more power to you.

 

Given the knowledge ahead of time, I'd encourage parents to buy thin thermal jackets for their little ones. No biggie. But no, I wouldn't go out and buy a bunch of new stuff for this purpose.

 

As for the idea of a blanket, poncho, or backwards coat in the car - what about kids who want to actually have access to their hands while driving? And what about kids who throw blankets off?

[SKL]

I am sorry this isn't really very funny. Over a million children die every year in traffic accidents. Why the hyperbole?

 

 

Why the hyperbole? Maybe your statistics are a little rusty. Here's a quote I got from the first site google took me to, and I'm sure it's a lot more accurate than your "over a million." Seriously. There are only 300 million people in the USA.

 

"In 2003, there were a total of 42,643 traffic fatalities in the United States. The 0-14

 

age group accounted for 5 percent (2,136) of those traffic fatalities."

 

And most of those kids who died were NOT restrained in a properly installed seat in a carefully driven car.

[Slartibartfast]

I don't know how it is where you all live, but I have NEVER encountered another car speeding toward me (the wrong way) in my lane. I'm 46 and I've driven many hundreds of thousands of miles. I'm sure it happens, but am I going to take up x minutes out of every day - hours out of every month - days out of every year - to prepare for this extremely rare occurrance (that still might kill us anyway)? Nope. If you want to, more power to you.

 

 

 

Er....yeah I had never had a car just veer over and plow into me unexpectedly. It is very awkward. That must be why they call them "accidents" rather than "normal every day random lane changes into one another"

 

 

 

 

[Slartibartfast]

Why the hyperbole? Maybe your statistics are a little rusty. Here's a quote I got from the first site google took me to, and I'm sure it's a lot more accurate than your "over a million." Seriously. There are only 300 million people in the USA.

"In 2003, there were a total of 42,643 traffic fatalities in the United States. The 0-14

age group accounted for 5 percent (2,136) of those traffic fatalities."

And most of those kids who died were NOT restrained in a properly installed seat in a carefully driven car.

 

 

If you actually looked at my link you would see that it is from WHO International.

 

It is 1.3 million "people" though I mispoke. 30% of those were children.

[SKL]

If you actually looked at my link you would see that it is from WHO International.

 

 

The vast majority of people in the world do not transport their children in cars.

[Slartibartfast]

The vast majority of people in the world do not transport their children in cars.

 

 

I don't have data for unrestrained children in llama accidents

[SKL]

If you actually looked at my link you would see that it is from WHO International.

 

 

OK, I clicked on your previously-posted quote and here's what it says exactly (bolding and first parentheses mine). Please note that the issue of wearing a coat or not in a properly installed car seat on US roads is pretty irrelevant to these statistics:

 

• About 1.3 million people die each year as a result of road traffic crashes. (People, not children who would be in car seats.)

• Road traffic injuries are the leading cause of death among young people, aged 15–29 years.

• Over 90% of the world's fatalities on the roads occur in low-income and middle-income countries, even though these countries have less than half of the world's vehicles.

• Nearly half (46%) of those dying on the world’s roads are “vulnerable road usersâ€: pedestrians, cyclists and motorcyclists.

• ....

• Only 15% of countries have comprehensive laws relating to five key risk factors: speeding, drinking and driving, and the use of motorcycle helmets, seat-belts and child restraints.

 

 

 

Besides, I don't think that the comment about fat and diapers is less relevant than the kind of coat shown in that video someone posted. Truly. If it is really a death risk to put a coat on a skinny kid, then it is a death risk to transport a chubby kid or one in a diaper in the same manner. How is it different to insist that parents put chubby kids on diets and potty-train sooner, versus what is being argued here about coats? Each is potentially inconvenient and uncomfortable. Yet each is technically possible / feasible in most cases.

[DusksAngel]

I drive like an old lady. LOL Seriously I am a very cautious driver. I also don't drive in situations I know I can't handle.

 

But seriously, it is not reasonable to bring an infant out without a coat when it's well below freezing. And I don't like leaving my car running for a long time either. That's just inviting someone to steal it. You know, someone stole my ashtray? Now I have this big hole there. There wasn't even anything in it.

 

But it is reasonable to use a fleece coat and a blanket or more. Those snuggly things? Those are pretty awesome too. And keep kids warm and won't compress in an accident.

[In the Rain]

Am I just finding out about this or is this a new thing?

 

It definitely isn't new. I heard about it when my dd was born 11 years ago.

[tabrizia]

Besides, I don't think that the comment about fat and diapers is less relevant than the kind of coat shown in that video someone posted. Truly. If it is really a death risk to put a coat on a skinny kid, then it is a death risk to transport a chubby kid or one in a diaper in the same manner. How is it different to insist that parents put chubby kids on diets and potty-train sooner, versus what is being argued here about coats? Each is potentially inconvenient and uncomfortable. Yet each is technically possible / feasible in most cases.

 

Because a kid can't fall out of their fat. Yes the fat may compress a bit, but you don't put on a far suit to get into the car.

 

Also diapers are already compressed, even cloth diapers and not in general squishy, if you are putting your kid in the car in a diaper that is that inflated and squishy then change them. Most diapers are not much thicker then a pair of undies.

[justLisa]

FOR US, this would be insanity. My kids would die of hypothermia before I got in a crash. Most days my van doesn't even get warm before we get to where we're going.

 

We wear coats in the car/seats. End of story.

 

Yeah this is one of the new "rules" I just wouldn't follow in the freezing cold

 

That said I park in a garage or warm my van up first. But if we are some place else dd would be crying from being so cold.

[SKL]

Because a kid can't fall out of their fat. Yes the fat may compress a bit, but you don't put on a far suit to get into the car.

 

 

The issue for most kids is not that they can fall out with a coat on. The lap part of the belt would make that physically impossible unless the legs were broken off.