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20/20 episode last night


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Did anyone else see this episode of 20/20 last night? It's about the FLDS but relates to homeschool because they talk about how the kids are not properly educated. There's a scene where they interview the lawyer for the Utah State Board of Education and she talks in horror about how the state has no right to go in and "demand" to see what curriculum parents are using. It seems fairly clear that these kids are neglected educationally, but I find it frustrating that such a small group could end up affecting all of us. I don't want my state "demanding" to see the curriculum I use, but perhaps there needs to be more regulation? I'm not trying to stir up controversy--but I know you all are so good at thoughtful, reasoned discussion. :) (Seriously, I see more intelligent discussion on these boards than most places!) What would reasonable regulation look like?

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Yes, I saw it. I cringed when they started talking about homeschooling and showed the 18 year old boy who couldn't read. It was clear that the children were not getting anything close to an adequate education. I hate to think that a small group like this can negatively affect the many hardworking homeschooling families. It seems that Utah doesn't have any type of assessment at all, so nobody knows if the children are being taught anything at all.

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It seems that Utah doesn't have any type of assessment at all, so nobody knows if the children are being taught anything at all.

 

But therein lies the crux of problem, doesn't it? Yes, it's horrible that these kids are not getting the education they deserve, but to be honest it's no different from the parents that are not homeschooling completely under the radar in states that already have regulatory requirements. Once you allow for reviewing homeschool curriculum, where is the line drawn for what is acceptable and what is not? It opens the doors to some type of governmental oversight and removes the autonomy that homeschooling provides in the first place.

 

When the states correct the educational neglect in public schools, then *maybe* I'll bother to listen to this nonsense that more regulations equals better.

 

I agree with Martha. When our ps fixes it's own problems, maybe I'll consider agreeing them to have a say-so in what my child does. I pulled him out of ps b/c I didn't like how they taught him and tried to dictate his non-school hours. I'm not going to willingly give that authority back to them.

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I always get a little twitchy when I hear another homeschooler say that we need more regulations in order to make sure that everyone educate their children to a certain standard. That is a slippery slope because my standards are not the same as someone else's. I may decide that my child would be better served to not have any formal education until they are 10 whereas you may think starting at 4 is the best way. I may think that waiting until highschool to study formal history and science makes more sense for my child whereas someone else may not want to do a formal study of those subjects at all. Do I hope that all those who say they are homescooling are actually doing so? Yes. Do I hope that all ps kids are getting properly educated? Yes. Do I believe dc slip through the cracks in both situations? Absolutely. More regulation isn't going to change anything for those kids. You are always going to have those homeschoolers who skirt beneath the regulations anyway, call themselves homeschoolers and then don't educate their children. More regulation is just going to cause those people to dig their trenches a little deeper. Just like gun laws aren't going to affect the people who operate with no regard to the law anyway. More regulation in the ps system? It's already pretty regulated and you still have dc graduating high school at a 5th grade reading level.

 

The type of regulation that would ensure all homeschooled children are getting properly educated according to a set of standards would be far too intrusive for me. No thank you.

 

I think there are just as many stories about bad ps situations as there are about bad homeschoolers (or bad according to them...I didn't see the story or the reasons why this child couldn't read). I think we just are super sensitive about them because we obviously feel they put us under a microscope. I'm sure ps teachers feel similarly when a story about our broken ps system are aired. I try to look at them for what they are...ratings generators.

 

What can we do to counteract the bad rep some parents give to homeschooling? Keep educating your kids to your high standards, let them enter college, trade schools, the armed services and the workplace and when someone comments on how intelligent, well spoken, or composed they are make sure they remember to mention that they are homeschooled.

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I completely agree that the thought of a bunch of unknown bureaucrats making decisions that affect what I do in my own home is incredibly uncomfortable. But I'm not sure I agree that government regulation in all circumstances is bad...and I think in some cases it is necessary. For example, I believe stricter gun control laws would reduce gun crime, although obviously there will always be law breakers. I've seen a couple of examples of edcuational neglect through homeschooling in my own community--and in both cases, the children had caring parents who did not intend to deprive their children of education. It just ended up working out that way. I don't know what the answer is, but I have a bad feeling that increased regulation will be heading our way one way or another...

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When the states correct the educational neglect in public schools, then *maybe* I'll bother to listen to this nonsense that more regulations equals better.

 

 

But this doesn't exactly bolster our argument, does it? Saying, "Well, if the public schools can give kids a sh*t education, then by God I'll give my kids a sh*t education too," isn't really making our case. The only thing that protects us is for us to prove our kids do better.

 

I'm all for mandatory testing. I don't think it's too much to ask of homeschoolers that our kids, assuming there aren't any LDs, can meet rock bottom standards of education, and if you think your kids should be able to remain illiterate until they're fifteen, well, maybe you shouldn't be homeschooling. I've never thought that homeschooling means we have a license to choose to neglect our kids' educations. Children have a right to be decently educated, regardless of what parents think, and that goes for kids in public, private, and homeschools.

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I believe educational neglect is a crime even in states where homeschooling is unregulated.

 

If there's evidence that educational neglect is happening with a particular family (based on the comments from those who saw the episode I think there is evidence) then let the state go in and following due process, investigate those families. That does not mean that states need standardized testing or the legal right to demand anything from all private or homeschools. Educational neglect is another form of child neglect. We don't allow social workers to demand entry into every home in America to make sure all kids are being treated well. When there's credible evidence of a crime possibly being committed we allow investigations.

 

Standardized testing and government regulations have not even come close to solving the appallingly bad education many pockets of American public school children are forced to endure on a daily basis K-12 so let's not assume it will solve the problems with people who to claim to be homeschooling but clearly are not educating their kids. Government has no credibility in this department. I've never heard people who advocate regulating homeschools with government control advocating those educationally neglected ps kids be immediately unenrolled from the disastrous public schools and the staff prosecuted for educational neglect. Yet, most homeschoolers agree people masquerading as homeschools but actually providing no education to their kids be prosecuted.

 

It won't work anyway even if you do succeed in getting government regulation of homeschools. People wanting to neglect their children will simply move and live under the radar by living off the grid and keeping their kids at home instead of enrolling them in a public school. There are plenty of cases of abusive parents doing that and claiming they're homeschooling when of course they're not schooling those kids at all.

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I believe educational neglect is a crime even in states where homeschooling is unregulated.

 

If there's evidence that educational neglect is happening with a particular family (based on the comments from those who saw the episode I think there is evidence) then let the state go in and following due process, investigate those families. That does not mean that states need standardized testing or the legal right to demand anything from all private or homeschools. Educational neglect is another form of child neglect. We don't allow social workers to demand entry into every home in America to make sure all kids are being treated well. When there's credible evidence of a crime possibly being committed we allow investigations.

 

 

There is no way for the state to "go in and follow due process" in places with zero oversight. What would they use as the benchmark? They can't say, "Well, this seventeen-year-old can't read so we're going to do something," if there isn't a law requiring a certain reading level by a given age. In order for the state to intervene in cases of educational neglect, there has to be a law defining what that is, and that law, by its very definition, would be a form of regulation of homeschooling. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. You can't say, "I want no oversight of me, but the state can step in when those other homeschoolers don't do it right." It doesn't work like that.

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But this doesn't exactly bolster our argument, does it? Saying, "Well, if the public schools can give kids a sh*t education, then by God I'll give my kids a sh*t education too," isn't really making our case. The only thing that protects us is for us to prove our kids do better.

I'm all for mandatory testing. I don't think it's too much to ask of homeschoolers that our kids, assuming there aren't any LDs, can meet rock bottom standards of education, and if you think your kids should be able to remain illiterate until they're fifteen, well, maybe you shouldn't be homeschooling. I've never thought that homeschooling means we have a license to choose to neglect our kids' educations. Children have a right to be decently educated, regardless of what parents think, and that goes for kids in public, private, and homeschools.

 

But that is not at all what I have stated.

 

Of course, I think most home schoolers, just as most private schools, would like to honestly claim they out perform the public schools, not use them as a base goal of equality. It is not a question of the public schools can give a turd education so home schoolers can too. It is a question of the public schools are giving a turd education and thus have no just authority whatsoever to any claims of knowing diddly about how to regulate home schools or even private schools.

 

I don't think education is a right. I think it is a social good, but not a right. No one has the right to demand someone teach them something. For example, I would like to learn .. so many things, but .. Oh say...quilting. Might it be a social good to pass those skills onto others for their benefit and for the benefit of however they might also pass it too? Absolutely. But I still have no right to learn it. If education is a right, then what did I do to lose my right? How do you even begin to define a decent education? Basic 3 Rs?

 

I do the ACT in high school with satisfactory to excellent results pending which of the four boys I might reference. It's not much of a reflection of their education in my opinion. And mostly I find it a waste of time that I must endure to play the college game for their sakes.

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This topic is so hard for me. On the one hand, it's terrifying to hear about children learning man never went to the moon, the sun is the center of the universe, Warren Jeffs is president. But to counteract that we would have, what, mandatory history studies, laid out by the state? Mandatory science? No thanks- that's exactly why I home school! As hard as it is for me to accept, I stand behind the rights of the parents to teach their children...gulp...nothing but Warren Jeffs proverbs, should they so desire. I abhor it, but I think a parents right to educate their child as they see fit is an unalienable right. The flds have about a hundred zillion other things they can and SHOULD be taken to task for (welfare fraud! Kidnapping! Child labor!) that changing home school laws to prosecute them is just throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

The majority of home school parents-like the majority of public schools- are doing a good job. Those that aren't, aren't. We can try to fix that via support available to graduated students who need remedial help, extended high school age allowance, vocational training- both failed ps students and hs students could benefit from that, and there are far more failed ps students. But blanket regulations of home schools for a small problem? I just can't get behind that.

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I don't want my state "demanding" to see the curriculum I use, but perhaps there needs to be more regulation?

 

My State does this - I have no problem with it. They come into my home once a year - take a look at what I am using - discuss how the kids are doing and leave. It's not really a big deal. I have chosen all my own curriculum and most of what I am using is American and yet the govt. has had no issue with what I am doing. Government regualtions don't have to be ultra controlling.

 

I agree though that more regulations won't help much in preventing neglect. I am happy to show what I am doing and enrol my kids with the State because I have nothing to hide and I know I am doing it properly and my kids are being educated. Even though it's the law here that you have to register with the State I know many homeschoolers who don't and fly under the radar. Those who are neglectful will do the same thing same thing.

 

Our education moderators understand that there are all types of homeschooling philosophies - they underestand that some might start educating at 4 and others at an older age. In all the time they have been doing it (15 years) only one application to homeschool was rejected and that was because the family was keeping their kids home to work in their shop for long hours and it went against child labour laws. So even though I have to show my curriculum I don't find it invasive or controlling at all.

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I don't think education is a right. I think it is a social good, but not a right. No one has the right to demand someone teach them something. For example, I would like to learn .. so many things, but .. Oh say...quilting. Might it be a social good to pass those skills onto others for their benefit and for the benefit of however they might also pass it too? Absolutely. But I still have no right to learn it. If education is a right, then what did I do to lose my right? How do you even begin to define a decent education? Basic 3 Rs?

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there, because I do think a basic education is a right that all children have. You can't engage in the political process, or understand your rights as a citizen, if you can't read. You can't function in our society without the rudimentary math skills necessary to understand a paycheck or do your taxes. I do believe that children have the right to learn enough to function in society. If we say that those basic skills are a mere privilege, what's to stop those in power from simply taking that privilege away from the people who disagree with them? We need to protect that right, and if that means telling homeschooling parents, "Look, you have to teach your children to read, add, etc.," then so be it.

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There is no way for the state to "go in and follow due process" in places with zero oversight. What would they use as the benchmark? They can't say, "Well, this seventeen-year-old can't read so we're going to do something," if there isn't a law requiring a certain reading level by a given age. In order for the state to intervene in cases of educational neglect, there has to be a law defining what that is, and that law, by its very definition, would be a form of regulation of homeschooling. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. You can't say, "I want no oversight of me, but the state can step in when those other homeschoolers don't do it right." It doesn't work like that.

 

What do they use now? What about kids who aren't reading at grade level in ps? What about the kids who score below grade level on standardized test right now in ps? They haven't figured out how to solve that problem yet with all the kids they already have access too. What makes you think they can solve it with homeschoolers? I have three close friends and family who are ps school teachers (gifted, mainstream, and ESL.) The last two complain constantly that the ps kids they get are well below the benchmarks for what they were supposed to have accomplished in their previous grade levels.

 

My husband's maternal aunt teaches 8th grade English. What that means is she is teaching them to read. Not Literature. Words and sentences at a basic comprehension level. No, it's not the ESL or special needs kids. It's a mainstream class. It's a problem that regulation and standardization have yet to solve with all the taxpayer funding and complete government control.

 

There has always been and will always be this problem because neglectful parents simply don't care or they have a very different idea about what their children need. As I pointed out, they will simply move away and never bother enrolling their kids in the new ps or registering them as homeschoolers if the state requires it.

 

Ps teachers constantly complain that apathetic parents are the root of poor performance problems with ps students. Don't believe me? Ask them. Read articles written by teachers dealing with low performing students. It's usually the main theme. Imagine how hard it would be with combative parents like people who used to claim to be hs but really weren't schooling their kids at all who were forced into the ps system. There's a big difference between theory and reality. Reality is usually far more complicated and harder to fix. Schools have been unable to fix this so far. Adding regulations to for won't fix it either.

 

In states where there's little or no regulation like here in AZ, there are cases of educational neglect that have been investigated.

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What do they use now? What about kids who aren't reading at grade level in ps? What about the kids who score below grade level on standardized test right now in ps? They haven't figured out how to solve that problem yet with all the kids they already have access too. What makes you think they can solve it with homeschoolers? I have three close friends and family who are ps school teachers (gifted, mainstream, and ESL.) The last two complain constantly that the ps kids they get are well below the benchmarks for what they were supposed to have accomplished in their previous grade levels.

 

My husband's maternal aunt teaches 8th grade English. What that means is she is teaching them to read. Not Literature. Words and sentences at a basic comprehension level. No, it's not the ESL or special needs kids. It's a mainstream class. It's a problem that regulation and standardization have yet to solve with all the taxpayer funding and complete government control.

 

There has always been and will always be this problem because neglectful parents simply don't care or they have a very different idea about what their children need. As I pointed out, they will simply move away and never bother enrolling their kids in the new ps or registering them as homeschoolers if the state requires it.

 

Ps teachers constantly complain that apathetic parents are the root of poor performance problems with ps students. Don't believe me? Ask them. Read articles written by teachers dealing with low performing students. It's usually the main theme. Imagine how hard it would be with combative parents like people who used to claim to be hs but really weren't schooling their kids at all who were forced into the ps system. There's a big difference between theory and reality. Reality is usually far more complicated and harder to fix. Schools have been unable to fix this so far. Adding regulations to for won't fix it either.

 

In states where there's little or no regulation like here in AZ, there are cases of educational neglect that have been investigated.

 

As I've said before, I don't buy into the whole "homeschoolers get to do whatever we want with no regulations at all because public schools suck" argument.

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I'm watching the episode right now. It is very upsetting, because other than the absolute extremes (such as teaching that Warren Jeffs is the president of the U.S.!) I know too many homeschooling families raising children in nearly this much ignorance and isolation.

 

Today at a family gathering, an older woman in the family who was formerly pro-homeschooling told me that she is now against it, because out of the many hs'ing families she knows, only two are succeeding by their own standards. She lives in an area with very poor public schools, yet all the ps kids of her acquaintance can read and too many of the hs'ers can't.

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I'm all for mandatory testing. I don't think it's too much to ask of homeschoolers that our kids, assuming there aren't any LDs, can meet rock bottom standards of education, and if you think your kids should be able to remain illiterate until they're fifteen, well, maybe you shouldn't be homeschooling. I've never thought that homeschooling means we have a license to choose to neglect our kids' educations. Children have a right to be decently educated, regardless of what parents think, and that goes for kids in public, private, and homeschools.
I don't think education is a right. I think it is a social good, but not a right. No one has the right to demand someone teach them something. For example, I would like to learn .. so many things, but .. Oh say...quilting. Might it be a social good to pass those skills onto others for their benefit and for the benefit of however they might also pass it too? Absolutely. But I still have no right to learn it.

 

I agree with the first post above and strongly disagree with the second. I'm also all for mandatory testing, to protect kids from being undereducated like described in this video. I do believe basic education is a right, and not just a social good. How can you believe in the unalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...if you don't believe that being taught how to read or write is a right? Comparing it to quilting is a silly example, and a straw man argument. No one believes that your every desire to learn a hobby, like quilting, is a right. But the opportunity to a basic education should be given to every child. It's the law as well that every child be given a basic education, whether public schooled or homeschooled or whatever.

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We have a close friend of the family who was illiterate until he was 20, and yet he graduated public high school. Obviously regulations aren't going to help since public schools are highly regulated and we still have kids coming out who are functionally illiterate, can't point out Egypt on a map, and don't understand factions well enough to halve a recipe. Heck - have you read Liping Ma's book?! Our TEACHERS don't understand elementary mathematics. Regulations won't fix that.

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That family member also mentioned her concern about the hs'ed girls who are under-educated because they are being prepared to be "good wives and mothers," so they spend long hours at domestic chores and don't get a basic education. I, too, have seen this dark side of homeschooling. Again, similar to the FLDS.

 

Yes, absolutely. There are homeschoolers teaching their kids that slavery was biblical, that women are less than men, that all sorts of things are true. And yet- I cannot get behind a movement to make that illegal. It bothers me, I find it abhorrent, but yet how do we fix it?Forced state curricula? Doesn't that seem a vast over reaching by the government to you? it does me- and I am very liberal! But this is a fundamental parents rights issue, and though it totally grosses me out it would be so abused, I just can't see the state telling parents they have no right to educate their children as they see fit- even if that education consists of "girls don't need math" or "Warren Jeffs is the president". Short of compulsory education for everyone, no exceptions, it isnt viable to police this sort of fringe teaching. And it would do more harm than good. as I get older and home school longer, I have come to believe it is important to preserve the rights of parents to educate their children poorly. Yes, poorly, if they so believe it in their childrens best interest. I just don't think the state or society can interfere here. With abuse, with neglect, absolutely. But with education or religious upbringing- the state has no right.

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Yes, absolutely. There are homeschoolers teaching their kids that slavery was biblical, that women are less than men, that all sorts of things are true. And yet- I cannot get behind a movement to make that illegal. It bothers me, I find it abhorrent, but yet how do we fix it?Forced state curricula? Doesn't that seem a vast over reaching by the government to you? it does me- and I am very liberal! But this is a fundamental parents rights issue, and though it totally grosses me out it would be so abused, I just can't see the state telling parents they have no right to educate their children as they see fit- even if that education consists of "girls don't need math" or "Warren Jeffs is the president". Short of compulsory education for everyone, no exceptions, it isnt viable to police this sort of fringe teaching. And it would do more harm than good. as I get older and home school longer, I have come to believe it is important to preserve the rights of parents to educate their children poorly. Yes, poorly, if they so believe it in their childrens best interest. I just don't think the state or society can interfere here. With abuse, with neglect, absolutely. But with education or religious upbringing- the state has no right.

 

I'm still thinking it through. Right now, I'm beginning to believe that mandatory testing could be a good thing as long as there are options. A family should be able to choose whether to use the CAT, Stanford, or other reputable test. I'm not sure that I think required testing will lead to the government barging in our homes demanding to see textbooks and work samples.

 

Thanks to this 20/20 episode (which I just now finished watching) I have finally figured out my problem with the argument that public schools also suck. My problem with that argument is that the children will have to be adults in the world that fits the public school outcome. They will not grow into a world that fits mama and daddy's paradigm unless they are literally in a cult situation where even the lives of the adults are regulated. The FLDS is an example of what that might look like. But most homeschoolers are not in an actual cult. Some are in a cult-like paradigm, surrounded by others who are "like-minded" and suffering from limited access to other worldviews, but there's nobody waiting to marry them or offer them a job. Not necessarily. The careers and marriages may be the ideal but they are not guaranteed. Each young person will still have to make their way and function as adults in this society, and they are not prepared.

 

I mean, even in the worst public school a kid can develop some street smarts and survival tactics. He's not in a never-never land where everyone reinforces to him that he's better educated just because he doesn't go to school. Or a girl is not fooled into believing that boys with the earning potential to support a large family are going to be beating down her door to propose marriage just because she didn't go to school and majored in floor mopping.

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We are also talking about a cult here. In a cult the children Always suffer. Religious Fundamentalism is causing this and regardless of what homeschooling laws are in place, parents whose children aren't learning, still won't learn. The FD's won't allow it.

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I don't have a problem with General Oversite. Those who are educating their children shouldn't either. Things like: Are my kids literate, able to write a coherent sentence and able to do math close to grade level? I'm talking about end of elementary and middle school testing to make sure a 13 yr old is not functioning as a 6 yr old.

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It would be a really, really good thing if the homeschoolers of Utah (and the entire U.S.A.) could rise up and say, "You claim that nothing can be done about the FLDS schools because of Utah's homeschooling laws, but what they are doing is not homeschooling. They have a private school on their compound, which is not homeschooling. And homeschoolers don't neglect literacy, science, or history, either."

 

The first is true, in my opinion, but the second isn't. We all know homeschoolers who neglect literacy or science. We all know homeschoolers who teach only revisionist history and keep their children from learning about historical events with which they disagree or that might be in conflict with their agenda. We can't say that most homeschoolers have more in common with the best schools in the country than with the FLDS cult compound private school.

 

We can't police our own, any more than we can fix or control failing public schools. But maybe we can finally make that break and divorce ourselves entirely from the types of failures we're discussing here. It doesn't seem enough now to say as we used to say, "But my homeschool is nothing like that. We're succeeding." It might be time to organize.

 

I am ready to find a way to distance ourselves from the failing homeschools. As conventions become more about lifestyle than academics, ever-poorer hs curriculum floods the market, and the reputation of homeschooling begins to fall, now seems the time to begin creating an alternate homeschooling culture. We need inclusive, academics-focused support groups and organizations, conventions, magazines, and websites. We must do this before we go down with a ship we never meant to be on. (It's late. I'll fix that grammar tomorrow.)

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It would be a really, really good thing if the homeschoolers of Utah (and the entire U.S.A.) could rise up and say, "You claim that nothing can be done about the FLDS schools because of Utah's homeschooling laws, but what they are doing is not homeschooling. They have a private school on their compound, which is not homeschooling. And homeschoolers don't neglect literacy, science, or history, either."

The first is true, in my opinion, but the second isn't. We all know homeschoolers who neglect literacy or science. We all know homeschoolers who teach only revisionist history and keep their children from learning about historical events with which they disagree or that might be in conflict with their agenda. We can't say that most homeschoolers have more in common with the best schools in the country than with the FLDS cult compound private school.

We can't police our own, any more than we can fix or control failing public schools. But maybe we can finally make that break and divorce ourselves entirely from the types of failures we're discussing here. It doesn't seem enough now to say as we used to say, "But my homeschool is nothing like that. We're succeeding." It might be time to organize.

I am ready to find a way to distance ourselves from the failing homeschools. As conventions become more about lifestyle than academics, ever-poorer hs curriculum floods the market, and the reputation of homeschooling begins to fall, now seems the time to begin creating an alternate homeschooling culture. We need inclusive, academics-focused support groups and organizations, conventions, magazines, and websites. We must do this before we go down with a ship we never meant to be on. (It's late. I'll fix that grammar tomorrow.)

 

Yes, but how? That is what I cannot figure out. A student can pass the cat test and still be taught Warren Jeffs is the president, or girls are bad at math. Save a state enforced curricula, there is no way to prevent this sort of thing from happening. And the cat test may catch kids who are taught slowly and gently and dont read until 8 as failures, when in fact they have caring parents who choose to focus on different things, and I feel that is the parents right. there simply is no line that doesn't allow for kids to fall through the cracks- much like public school. I have come to believe no oversight is better than more, in the long run and for most children. It's a tough question, for sure!

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Regarding mandatory testing...what about my dd who is an amazing artist, but would fail any grade level math test put in front of her right now. What about my son who is a whiz at math but not reading well yet. I don't want to teach my children according to someone else's ideas of what they should know at such and such age/grade. That's why I pulled them out of public school! I don't want to teach to the test!

 

And what's going to happen if my dd had to be tested to prove that I was giving her a basic education but she failed the test because she is still struggling...making huge improvements from where she was but still not up to "standards"? Then what? Who is going to force me to put her into the public school system that failed her to begin with?

 

 

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I saw the 20/20 segment and I cringed when they talked about homeschooling. It is so sad that children are being taught Warren Jeffs is president, and that they can't read. I agreee with a previous poster, that's not homeschooling. They run a private school, which certainly should be held to some sort of standard.

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Argh. Just lost a whole fat post. It was a good one, too.

 

What would more regulation look like? It'd look like a lot more work for us. We'd have more record keeping to do such as attendance. We might have to get lunches approved by a nutritionist. There would be lots of expensive testing. Parents would have to have a specific education in order to be allowed to homeschool their children. We would be told what to teach, how to teach, and to what extent to teach. There would be no flexibility to follow rabbit trails or take summer vacation in January. There would be committees that approved or denied our curriculum choices. Unannounced home visits/examinations. We might loose our abilities to selectively vaccinate. If our children weren't performing at grade level we might loose them to foster care. In short, we'd loose a lot of freedom.

 

What can we as homeschoolers do to regulate others? The same thing we do to regulate our neighbors. If something bad or illegal is going on, we report it. We get to know people in our communities. We help where we can, and lobby when needed.

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But this doesn't exactly bolster our argument, does it? Saying, "Well, if the public schools can give kids a sh*t education, then by God I'll give my kids a sh*t education too," isn't really making our case. The only thing that protects us is for us to prove our kids do better. I'm all for mandatory testing. I don't think it's too much to ask of homeschoolers that our kids, assuming there aren't any LDs, can meet rock bottom standards of education, and if you think your kids should be able to remain illiterate until they're fifteen, well, maybe you shouldn't be homeschooling. I've never thought that homeschooling means we have a license to choose to neglect our kids' educations. Children have a right to be decently educated, regardless of what parents think, and that goes for kids in public, private, and homeschools.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there, because I do think a basic education is a right that all children have. You can't engage in the political process, or understand your rights as a citizen, if you can't read. You can't function in our society without the rudimentary math skills necessary to understand a paycheck or do your taxes. I do believe that children have the right to learn enough to function in society. If we say that those basic skills are a mere privilege, what's to stop those in power from simply taking that privilege away from the people who disagree with them? We need to protect that right, and if that means telling homeschooling parents, "Look, you have to teach your children to read, add, etc.," then so be it.

 

:iagree: It bugs me when there is no regulation at all even though we, personally, never needed it and I would be willing to bet that 99.99% of the posters on this board would never need it. However, those of us on this board are not always typical and I want the rights of the students elsewhere to be able to get an education.

 

I work in a lower level ps in the high school and have since '99. While we have high school kids who can't read well, I can't name even one who can't read at all ASSUMING there is nothing LD or otherwise physically wrong with them. Reading at a 4th grade level is better than not reading at all. At the very least, the students would have a chance in ps that they obviously aren't getting in "non" homeschooling homeschools (and I'm not lumping unschoolers in there).

 

I like how our state tests in 3rd, 5th, and 8th and I'd vote for it to be similar anywhere. I also like that our state requires an annual assessment. They do NOT require all homeschoolers to test above average or any specific curriculum, but they do their best to assist kids who might be falling through the cracks. Some of those have been admitted to our ps, and you know what? They are doing better. Some end up with parents putting forth more effort. I'm sure they are doing better too. For those of us who didn't need it? It's a minor inconvenience to try to ensure better skills (maybe not the greatest skills) for all. I do care about kids who would otherwise fall through the cracks. I can't "wince and let them go." I may not be able to "fix" everything, but that doesn't mean the state shouldn't do "something" to try.

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What an interesting topic and discussion.

 

I am no longer homeschooling, but I want to say that I think a society should at least try to offer the opportunity for some sort of basic education, as a compassionate society. As homeschoolers in VA, we chose the testing option. My kids had to take a standardized test (there were options) and pass at least in the 25th percentile, or be put on probation for year, then we could try again. I don't know what happens if the child can't pass the test at that level. I think they go year by year. They also offer free testing for LDs and free remediation at the schools. I found that to be acceptable.

 

Part of the issue that no one seems to address is that which Mergath and Martha touched on--

 

Are parents the "owners" of their children, and as such, do they have the right to do whatever they want with them, until the children are adults? Perhaps that's best as another thread, but I think it is a fundamental question when it comes to many aspects of parenthood--what are the basic rights of parents towards their kids, and what might be some basic rights of the child. It sure gets complicated.

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We live in New Jersey, a state that seems to be without a homeschool law. In any case, we don't "do" anything, we just homeschool. No notice of intent (NOI), no waiver of liability, no testing, no certified teacher evaulation, no portfolios, no attendance, no book/reading logs -- in short, nothing goes from our home to any government agency. So far, we haven't had any trouble with the school district. Our children have never been enrolled in any school, so I'm thinking the school district doesn't even know we exist. I do keep great records, and we do homeschool excellently. And, we're modest. ;)

 

The question of state/government oversight of our homeschooling has been the big debate at our house, because we are considering a move out of New Jersey (crazy taxes). Where could we go and have such GREAT homeschool laws? We do view NO REGULATION as great for homeschoolers. There are no hoops to jump through in New Jersey.

 

Pennsylvania is the next state over. Terrible, terrible, horrible, awful, and draconian homeschool so-called laws. At least, it feels that way to a NJ person, to go from "Captain of the Ship" to "Vassal of the Commonwealth." We're still thinking through our convictions.

 

I have come to think that the state CAN ask for these two items:

  • Notice of Intent to Homeschool -- This simply lets the state know that "We, the parent(s) of ____, intend to homeschool this child in the year ____."
  • Waiver of Liability -- This simply states that "We, the parent(s) of ____, release the school district from being responsible for the education of ______ during the time that we homeschool him/her."

IMO, those two statements are all a school district can request, in order to legally cover itself. I probably would have no objection to submitting an NOI and a Waiver of Liability. I do have objections to submitting more.

 

BEYOND THAT, any other regulation is intrusive, including mandatory testing (whether or not scores are submitted), mandatory medical/dental/vaccination reports (why is that the state's business?), certified teacher evaluations (certified by whom? the state? blech.), portfolio evaluations (confiscation of private property), attendance/hours/days reports (this is so ridiculous for homeschoolers), reading logs (violates the privacy of the home), curriculum summaries/evaluations (violates the privacy of parenting), or any other requirement.

 

I have often wondered why people in highly regulatory states don't fight to change their homeschool laws. Do you truly LIKE letting the state/school district into your home? If not, why not lobby to change the laws?

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We do have to test yearly in this state. I really don't have a problem with that as I am allowed to chose which test and the setting, etc. My kids have never had an issue with performing at grade level despite their LD's. They are also in the 'system' so to speak already - getting cognitive therapy and community support workers, etc so I have plenty of oversight already.

 

I will point out that the 20/20 special focused on a cult. No amount of oversight for all homeschoolers is going to counteract that. In our state they would not legally meet the definition of homsechoolers - they are a private school. They would be subject to other regulations.

 

I will also point out that my father dropped out of public school in the third grade - could not read or write - and managed to do very well for himself. I now suspect he had dyslexia. We pulled my oldest child and his brothers out six years ago because the public school here refused to recognize his dyslexia. He would have been pushed through regardless and graduated illiterate or almost there. And no, he wouldn't have learned any basic survival skills - he's also autistic.

 

I don't think homeschoolers are given carte blanche because public schools suck but based on our own experience I will say that with full confidence my kids are doing better at home than at our local public school. They spent more time out of classroom because of administrative failures to abide by IEPS and BIPS than being instructed. My oldest is now almost fully remediated in reading and is learning carpentry in addition to a full course load - albeit modified. Not something he could have gotten at our local public school.

 

I do not feel as if I should have to give up my rights to homeschool my kids because of a cult. Nor should I have to give up my religious freedom to worship as I chose because of a cult. They should have NEVER labeled this cult as homeschooling in the first place.

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I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there, because I do think a basic education is a right that all children have. You can't engage in the political process, or understand your rights as a citizen, if you can't read. You can't function in our society without the rudimentary math skills necessary to understand a paycheck or do your taxes. I do believe that children have the right to learn enough to function in society. If we say that those basic skills are a mere privilege, what's to stop those in power from simply taking that privilege away from the people who disagree with them? We need to protect that right, and if that means telling homeschooling parents, "Look, you have to teach your children to read, add, etc.," then so be it.

 

 

And yet for most of history, citizenry managed it rather well. In some cases, better than now. Let's remember that our early nation had very little formal education and yet they were very active.

 

My parents had no more than a 6th and 8th grade education and they did very well for themselves and were always very able to participate in political discourse.

 

For the record, I'm not saying a 6th grade education is necessarily enough and I give my kids far more than that. But the notion that you can't figure out how to pay your bills and who you want to vote for without 13 years of education is what I dispute.

 

And again, if testing equaled education, public schools would be way better than they are. I have no idea why everyone thinks the things that aren't working in publics schools are a solution to what is probably less than 5% of negligent home schoolers. That makes absolutely no sense to me. My four oldest have done average to excellent on their ACTs. Honestly? I think that is less a statement of how well I have educated them than how poorly the testing pool seems to be doing. We do it for the sake of playing the college game, but I don't feel the test is an accurate reflection of their education at all.

 

I agree with the first post above and strongly disagree with the second. I'm also all for mandatory testing, to protect kids from being undereducated like described in this video. I do believe basic education is a right, and not just a social good. How can you believe in the unalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...if you don't believe that being taught how to read or write is a right? Comparing it to quilting is a silly example, and a straw man argument. No one believes that your every desire to learn a hobby, like quilting, is a right. But the opportunity to a basic education should be given to every child. It's the law as well that every child be given a basic education, whether public schooled or homeschooled or whatever.

 

 

No it isn't silly. What defines a basic education? Learning facts with no relevance to daily life or learning a marketable life skill? Do the arts have no value? Is only learning to read and do basic arithmetic a basic education? Because if so, according to that standard, I can quit home schooling all except my youngest 2.

 

As for lifestyles, that's not part of a basic education by any definition. They have the right to teach their kid any religious or political or whatever view they want. Wrong headed though it might be. It's not like everyone on this board would feel okay with the public schools dictating what are acceptable points of view to be encouraged by parents.

 

Obviously I'm adamently anti regulation. :)

 

For many reasons, but if for no other reason than that the regulating agencies being suggested have shown themselves to be grossly incompetent at what they currently regulate. I see no evidence they would do any better regulating home schoolers in a positive manner.

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I do not feel as if I should have to give up my rights to homeschool my kids because of a cult. Nor should I have to give up my religious freedom to worship as I chose because of a cult. They should have NEVER labeled this cult as homeschooling in the first place.

 

 

Hear! Hear!

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In Texas all that is required is a withdrawl letter, if your child is already enrolled in school. Other than that there are no regulations that are overseen and that is a good thing IMO. I can never get behind the theory of "if it helps just one" that it is somehow worth it to give up my rights and the rights of my children. If the state/govt can't successfully monitor the public school system then they don't need to be burdened with trying to monitor homeschoolers.

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I live in a state with pretty much no oversight. I actually like it that way after hearing about putting portfolios and such together for kids. And I LOATHE standardized tests and having to teach to them. My kids took them for the first time this past year and they rocked through them at the 99th%, however, it is so ridiculous when I think of all the teachers we've known and the schools out there who have to teach to the test or not get funding. Some kids just can't get a "passing grade" whether homeschooled or not. So I think free GOOD sp ed assessments should be necessary and taken into consideration both in hs and ps. My 8 yo is dyslexic and had some testing done. We're really working hard with her, but they told us flat out that she would not be getting this kind of one on one help and intensive phonics in the school. They ONLY do sight reading. If I had her standardized tested to keep hs'ing her, she might fail right now even though the schools say she's getting more and better than they will give.

 

Which is the long way to say I agree with Tibbie and Mergath. With stipulations. Because in some ways I also agree with Martha. Testing obviously isn't helping in the schools. I would have no problem having my kids test annually to prove I'm not negligent, provided the state pays or I get to pick which test. But I'm not ok with the schools dictating what and when I should teach.

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My question for those who are for regulation; where does it begin and where does it end? If testing is your answer, history proves that testing does absolutely nothing for education. Just read a basic history of education and you will see that the more regulation the worse education gets. Putting children into standardized boxes is something that I am fundamentally against. I believe it destroys the love of and drive to learn. Yes, people do things I am against in all areas of life, but that is what freedom looks like.

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And yet for most of history, citizenry managed it rather well. In some cases, better than now. Let's remember that our early nation had very little formal education and yet they were very active.

 

My parents had no more than a 6th and 8th grade education and they did very well for themselves and were always very able to participate in political discourse.

 

For the record, I'm not saying a 6th grade education is necessarily enough and I give my kids far more than that. But the notion that you can't figure out how to pay your bills and who you want to vote for without 13 years of education is what I dispute.

 

And again, if testing equaled education, public schools would be way better than they are. I have no idea why everyone thinks the things that aren't working in publics schools are a solution to what is probably less than 5% of negligent home schoolers. That makes absolutely no sense to me. My four oldest have done average to excellent on their ACTs. Honestly? I think that is less a statement of how well I have educated them than how poorly the testing pool seems to be doing. We do it for the sake of playing the college game, but I don't feel the test is an accurate reflection of their education at all.

 

It's not like I'm marching around yelling,"Organic chemistry for all!" But I do think that all children have the right to learn basic reading, writing, and math skills at a bare minimum, regardless of whether or not the parents approve. Historically, lower classes with extremely low literacy levels haven't done too well for themselves. Literacy and liberty tend to go hand-in-hand. There was a reason the vast majority of slaves in the US weren't taught to read or write.

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I just watched this piece.

 

I really wondered if the oldest son didn't have some sort of dyslexia? It just struck me because the girls were actually attending high school and the one that pulled out her high school report card showed As and Bs in a traditional school setting.

 

They also mentioned that grade school boys were pulled out of school to do manual labor but there was nothing really said about how many years the son actually put in before leaving the FLDS compared to the girls' years in school at the FLDS compound.

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