butterflymommy Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 I am not posting this to be political... I am just sad after reading it and puzzled (which I will explain). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar This is a very tragic incident where a young pregnant woman died in an Irish hospital. She entered the hospital 17 weeks miscarrying but the baby was still alive. According to reports the hospital would not perform an abortion because the baby still had a detectable heartbeat. Drs did say that the fetus was not viable. 3 days later the deceased fetus was removed (I don't know if she was in the hospital during those 3 days), and 4 days later she died of septicemia. Here is what I don't understand: abortion to save the mother's life (including if she is suicidal) is legal in Ireland, and the hospital where she sought treatment had performed terminations for life saving reasons before. So why was she denied a termination? Is it possible she died from a botched d&c and/ or infection from a d&c? Which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with not being given an abortion in the first place? There just aren't enough details of what has happening when decisions for her care were made. Or if she even requested an abortion from the start (she was happy & excited to be pregnant according to reports)? I had a miscarriage at 17 weeks and my first instinct was to refuse a d&c in the off chance they were mistaken. If the heart was still beating I would have fought tooth and nail to refuse a d&c even against medical advice. I'm wondering if she received poor treatment because she was an immigrant (though upper middle class from the sound of it). I just can't imagine what she went through over that week. :crying: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 I think they are using this poor woman and her family as a way to force legal abortion in Ireland and as a slap at the Catholic Church. It has happened throughout history that women lose their babies at any point of a pregnancy. I'd venture to say that most of the time this happens spontaneously without the need for medical abortion. Also we've all heard stories (even recently here on the forum from a mom we all know) of women told that their baby is non viable and told to have a D&C yet the baby is now a healthy happy child. It is tragic what happened to this woman. But is there really any evidence other than speculation of non-medical people that she would have lived even if medical personnel had killed her unborn child? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6packofun Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 So it had to be a procedure that killed the baby and removed it in order to save the mother rather than a delivery that allowed it to be born and then die according to fate/God/whatever? I think terms are very important here. How does one miscarry a baby that is alive? Is that preterm labor that couldn't be stopped? What an odd way to say it. I think that unless we know the exact medical conditions it's hard to say that this is one of those cases where an abortion is truly the ONLY way to save a mother. Btw, there's this from Great Britain: "The Department of Health shows that of the over 6 million abortions committed in England and Wales since legalization in 1967, 0.006 percent were performed with the intention of saving the life of the mother or preventing serious injury. A total of 143 abortions have been obtained under the legal grounds allowing abortion “where the termination is immediately necessary to save the life of the pregnant woman or to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman.†" http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201213/ldhansrd/text/120719w0001.htm#12071972000444 And that's if one accepts all of those "mental health" conditions as so grave that a baby could not be saved and adopted by others, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 (edited) http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-20436714 She went to the hospital because she was having back pain. She was leaking amniotic fluid and they told her she was miscarrying. They did say since the baby had a heartbeat that they could not perform an abortion but that she would likely miscarry naturally. There is no question that this woman wanted her baby, but if they cannot stop her from miscarrying why can't they help her through that process? I don't think it is about legal abortion. This is about letting a woman die over a baby that could not be saved. There is real carelessness towards women's health in this situation. People might refuse to believe that there are really situations in which a woman's life is in danger. That is just not realistic and IMO it is murder when the woman dies. I believe these Doctors should face real consequences for ignoring a woman dying in agony. She died a week after she first went to the hospital. That is horrific. This situation is extremely rare, but it should never happen. Ireland has exceptions for a woman's health, but these Doctors did not feel empowered to make that decision. Something needs to be repaired in that decision-making process. IMO this isn't about the laws in place but the protocols in following those laws. This woman very much wanted her baby. It is terribly sad. Edited November 22, 2012 by Sis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterflymommy Posted November 22, 2012 Author Share Posted November 22, 2012 I guess we don't know enough details. It seems most likely to me that something went wrong (infection, uterine perforation) during the surgery to remove the fetus since it was after that, that she died. The hospital had to have been negligent one way or the other. Makes me afraid to seek medical assistance if I ever miscarry again, even though I trust my OBs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-20436714 She went to the hospital because she was having back pain. She was leaking amniotic fluid and they told her she was miscarrying. They did say since the baby had a heartbeat that they could not perform an abortion but that she would likely miscarry naturally. There is no question that this woman wanted her baby, but if they cannot stop her from miscarrying why can't they help her through that process? I don't think it is about legal abortion. This is about letting a woman die over a baby that could not be saved. There is real carelessness towards women's health in this situation. People might refuse to believe that there are really situations in which a woman's life is in danger. That is just not realistic and IMO it is murder when the woman dies. I believe these Doctors should face real consequences for ignoring a woman dying in agony. She died a week after she first went to the hospital. That is horrific. This situation is extremely rare, but it should never happen. Ireland has exceptions for a woman's health, but these Doctors did not feel empowered to make that decision. Something needs to be repaired in that decision-making process. IMO this isn't about the laws in place but the protocols in following those laws. This woman very much wanted her baby. It is terribly sad. I haven't seen anything that says she was not helped through the process delivering the baby. How and why she developed septicemia a week later should be addressed. Or am I missing something. Granted all of the details haven't been given to the media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 I guess we don't know enough details. It seems most likely to me that something went wrong (infection, uterine perforation) during the surgery to remove the fetus since it was after that, that she died. The hospital had to have been negligent one way or the other. Makes me afraid to seek medical assistance if I ever miscarry again, even though I trust my OBs. Okay, so did she not deliver? Did they do a D&C or D&E? I'm not sure how waiting for the baby to die naturally as opposed to aborting on demand of the mother caused her death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 I haven't seen anything that says she was not helped through the process delivering the baby. How and why she developed septicemia a week later should be addressed. Or am I missing something. Granted all of the details haven't been given to the media. I meant she wasn't given anything to deliver the baby while the heartbeat was still present. There are drugs that would have sped up the process. I would have refused a D&C as well, at least initially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 I meant she wasn't given anything to deliver the baby while the heartbeat was still present. There are drugs that would have sped up the process. I would have refused a D&C as well, at least initially. Okay. I see. I wondered why they didn't try to stop the labor or otherwise attempt to save the baby. Babies have survived at 20 weeks. Personally if it had been me I'd have been asking for a way to keep the baby in instead of asking for it to be aborted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 (edited) Okay. I see. I wondered why they didn't try to stop the labor or otherwise attempt to save the baby. Babies have survived at 20 weeks. Personally if it had been me I'd have been asking for a way to keep the baby in instead of asking for it to be aborted. It seems that she was in a great deal of pain. Without knowing more as to what was going on there it is hard to say. She could already have had the infection that lead to her death, the results of the inquiry will likely lead to more information. Edited November 22, 2012 by Sis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeneralMom Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 I could be wrong, but I thought the original story I read said that she was in absoulte agony and spiked a realy high fever so she was given antibiotics. I thought she was in the hospital for days waiting for the heartbeat to stop and then as soon as it did, they gave her a D&C but she died the a few days after that so it wasn't caused by the surgery but rather something that happened right before she started miscarrying or during the miscarriage. I cannot even imagine the pain she must have been in. For her to die of scepticemia and multiple organ failure whatever it was must have been bad. As a practising dentist, she had the medical knowledge to know and understand what was happening to her body, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Okay. I see. I wondered why they didn't try to stop the labor or otherwise attempt to save the baby. Babies have survived at 20 weeks. Personally if it had been me I'd have been asking for a way to keep the baby in instead of asking for it to be aborted. The record for survival that I can find is 21 weeks 5 days. Even a day at that age matters tremendously. Survival under 23 weeks is very very unusual. It’s a terrible, tragic story. Like most stories of this kind though there are very few actual facts out there. Right now the only person saying much is the husband who understandably is angry and grieving and blaming the hospital. It may be the hospital’s and doctor’s fault. It also may be that all the facts have not been made public. Perhaps she was denied an abortion when she first presented as she was not in danger (according to Ireland’s laws) and then became very sick too fast for an abortion to help her. It’s been a long time since I’ve done and OB rotation but in medicine in general things can sometimes go badly fast. It’s very easy later to look back and say if “they had done x then y wouldn’t have happened†but sometimes at the moment there isn’t a way to see if x is going to make the difference or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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