Punishment or Rewards

[Joan in GE]

Joan, so what I am taking from this is that it really has little to do with praise and everything to do with those convictions.

.....

Isn't the continuous praise still a relatively new thing in American culture?

......

While growing up, it was my job to paint the white fence around the yard and upper pasture. It was hard work, but every time we came up to the driveway, there was a certain sense of satisfaction in seeing that gleaming white fence.

 

Hmmm, when I was thinking of that anecdote, I didn't want it to appear that we just shouldn't praise because this family had a rich family life in other ways....I know two other families with 13, one from generations ago where I don't think they got praise - think alcoholic parents - and the children aren't anything like the one I mentioned...Then I know another one with younger children who do a lot of work with animals and I think the mom will sometimes praise but I'm not around them very much so can't say - but those children certainly have the satisfaction of seeing the results of their labor....It is very motivating if they value the results.

 

I'll take this one step further. I would differentiate *responsibility* from *work*. We work because we live, breathe, and want to eat. Everyone has work. Responsibility is connected to capability and maturity.

...

2nd btw, hehe, cell phones, gas, etc. in our culture have become sort of social rights rather than work tools.

 

That's a good distinction about capacity for a responsibility...."Rights" - a very loaded concept!!!

 

We both miss playing now. If our parents had allowed to to drop the instrument and thereby own the process, would we now be playing in civic orchestras, etc.? Who knows, but both of us rate "kid enjoying the process" as top priority in our kids' musical experience!

 

I think getting the kid to own the process is HUGE!!!!!!

 

If it's any consolation, my parents bought the instrument - figured out a way to get us lessons and from there on it was on us to do with it as we would. I too quit the clarinet of my own accord and regret it....

 

I agree with much of this. I don't praise my dc for learning and rarely--only for things they do an unusually good job on or if they have obviously been working hard to overcome a character flaw or ethical issue (eg learning not to lie). I don't think we should never give praise, but our society greatly overdoes it.

 

Very important to notice progress and attempts on change!

 

Punishment rarely works for him,

 

Janice - just thinking about this part of her quote makes me think of my dc....We did so much punishment for our oldest and I cannot say it worked at one level. At another, we don't have a control group/situation so did it keep him from worse? ...For the next ones, the idea of punishment (and watching their older bro) was enough to deter them...Plus they already had stronger morals, etc....(though they had 'push-ups' for minor infractions as does dd still)....

 

Joan

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I'd like to add another thought to the discussion-goodness knows I haven't figured out what really works and still deal with this regularly.

 

One thing I have noticed is that I can reach a point with the "punishment" aspect where a type of law of diminishing returns kicks in. The punishment can become so regular or prolonged that the child stops caring about doing whatever they were punished over-in our case this is usually education related but can also be chore related. For example, child is kept from social activities due to failure to complete school work, child continues to fail to complete school work and remains "grounded", child eventually stops trying to complete school work becuase it is viewed as a lost cause and the child believes freedom will never be granted. My lesson from this is that while helping a child reach a maturity and responsibility level to overcome this type of behavior, I need to keep punishments specific enough that the child doesn't lapse into this type of attitude. An attitude I want to avoid as it only perpetuates the bad behavior.

 

On the reward end I have learned that if the reward (or sometimes natural consequence of completing the work) is free time (time to be spent in an activity chosen by the child) I need to be flexible about when the child uses this free time. They can't always enjoy time with friends, watch a tv show or sporting event, engage in a hobby, etc. at the same hour of the day that they may finish the work during. Therefore we often discuss free time-hey you finished your work today, if you wanted to do X with your free time and you can't do that at this hour I guess you better finish some of tomorrow's work so you can choose a different time then or choose time over the weekend. I've not perfected this either but have often been met with the attitude that there is no point in finishing because the free time gained won't gain the activity desired. Again, this attitude runs counter to what we are trying to accomplish and until the child reaches a level of maturity where they don't respond this way, overtly or not, I need to be aware of how to keep things moving in a positive direction while encouraging the maturity and responsibility aspects and gaining the desired outcomes for all involved.

 

I'm not suggesting that one be a pushover in these situations but understand the mindset of a child with whom both the stick and carrot are failing may help you to understand why one or the other is failing and adjust the system accordingly. I also find that teens (some-not necessarily all) can still have difficulty linking present action to future reward when the reward is far away. Understanding that academic success in 8th and 9th grade sets up a chain that will lead to desired employment or university admissions outcomes can still be difficult to grasp. If you are trying to get them to take ownership of a process that they can't quite grasp it is going to take a while for that ownership to kick in. It seems as if it may kick in one subject or activity at a time and I have no idea how to effectivly move that success into other areas.

 

Wish I had sucess stories for the op but those are two of my biggest failing points and I hope they will help shed light somehow. In our case failure breeds failure so perhaps avoiding failure is a form of sucess.

[Storm Bay]

I'd like to add another thought to the discussion-goodness knows I haven't figured out what really works and still deal with this regularly.

 

One thing I have noticed is that I can reach a point with the "punishment" aspect where a type of law of diminishing returns kicks in. The punishment can become so regular or prolonged that the child stops caring about doing whatever they were punished over-in our case this is usually education related but can also be chore related. For example, child is kept from social activities due to failure to complete school work, child continues to fail to complete school work and remains "grounded", child eventually stops trying to complete school work becuase it is viewed as a lost cause and the child believes freedom will never be granted. My lesson from this is that while helping a child reach a maturity and responsibility level to overcome this type of behavior, I need to keep punishments specific enough that the child doesn't lapse into this type of attitude. An attitude I want to avoid as it only perpetuates the bad behavior.

 

On the reward end I have learned that if the reward (or sometimes natural consequence of completing the work) is free time (time to be spent in an activity chosen by the child) I need to be flexible about when the child uses this free time. They can't always enjoy time with friends, watch a tv show or sporting event, engage in a hobby, etc. at the same hour of the day that they may finish the work during. Therefore we often discuss free time-hey you finished your work today, if you wanted to do X with your free time and you can't do that at this hour I guess you better finish some of tomorrow's work so you can choose a different time then or choose time over the weekend. I've not perfected this either but have often been met with the attitude that there is no point in finishing because the free time gained won't gain the activity desired. Again, this attitude runs counter to what we are trying to accomplish and until the child reaches a level of maturity where they don't respond this way, overtly or not, I need to be aware of how to keep things moving in a positive direction while encouraging the maturity and responsibility aspects and gaining the desired outcomes for all involved.

 

I'm not suggesting that one be a pushover in these situations but understand the mindset of a child with whom both the stick and carrot are failing may help you to understand why one or the other is failing and adjust the system accordingly. I also find that teens (some-not necessarily all) can still have difficulty linking present action to future reward when the reward is far away. Understanding that academic success in 8th and 9th grade sets up a chain that will lead to desired employment or university admissions outcomes can still be difficult to grasp. If you are trying to get them to take ownership of a process that they can't quite grasp it is going to take a while for that ownership to kick in. It seems as if it may kick in one subject or activity at a time and I have no idea how to effectivly move that success into other areas.

 

Wish I had sucess stories for the op but those are two of my biggest failing points and I hope they will help shed light somehow. In our case failure breeds failure so perhaps avoiding failure is a form of sucess.

 

This is well said. I have had this happen with my eldest many times, and it's hard to know how to handle it when there seems to be nothing left. I do find ways, but I've had to let some things slide that she's going to have to deal with when she leaves home. Learning to choose your battles wisely also helps.

 

My middle daughter went on all the college tours with us and to the information sessions, so while she still doesn't like to do everything she should, she is much better about it now because it helped her see why her grades and educational decisions now are important.

[TengoFive]

I have struggled with getting my oldest self-motivated. She is finally, mostly, there. What started the change in her was the new co-op we started going to for biology. She knows the schedule and knows when a test is coming up and does not want to fail in front of her peers. That got her going on science. Then she realized that having a scheduled test really helped motivate her, as she wants to perform well and have a measurable quantity. So, I started making sure her curriculum included tests. I have also started recording even daily grades for her, and that has motivated her as well. She sees her friends in public schools getting GPAs and wanted one as well. So, I guess she needs that number to work for. She's very goal-oriented though, so that may make a difference.

[Storm Bay]

I have struggled with getting my oldest self-motivated. She is finally, mostly, there. What started the change in her was the new co-op we started going to for biology. She knows the schedule and knows when a test is coming up and does not want to fail in front of her peers. That got her going on science. Then she realized that having a scheduled test really helped motivate her, as she wants to perform well and have a measurable quantity. So, I started making sure her curriculum included tests. I have also started recording even daily grades for her, and that has motivated her as well. She sees her friends in public schools getting GPAs and wanted one as well. So, I guess she needs that number to work for. She's very goal-oriented though, so that may make a difference.

 

Yes, my eldest is now in ps and works just hard enough to have an A average (she can do better, but that's her) and so now almost always gets her assignments in on time, etc. I see this as a glimpse of her grown up self and think that she'll do more of this as she grows up. How much, I don't know.

[regentrude]

On the reward end I have learned that if the reward (or sometimes natural consequence of completing the work) is free time (time to be spent in an activity chosen by the child) I need to be flexible about when the child uses this free time. They can't always enjoy time with friends, watch a tv show or sporting event, engage in a hobby, etc. at the same hour of the day that they may finish the work during. Therefore we often discuss free time-hey you finished your work today, if you wanted to do X with your free time and you can't do that at this hour I guess you better finish some of tomorrow's work so you can choose a different time then or choose time over the weekend.

 

This works well for my DS. He has to do a certain amount of school each day. If he does extra, he is allowed to credit that time towards a different day. For example, yesterday his out-of-town friend came over, spent the night, and will stay until noon; this means no school gets done today - but he can make it up by working extra this week, or by working on the weekend.

If he has plans that would fall into normal school time, he is very motivated to work extra so that he is free.

 

The punishment can become so regular or prolonged that the child stops caring about doing whatever they were punished over-in our case this is usually education related but can also be chore related. For example, child is kept from social activities due to failure to complete school work, child continues to fail to complete school work and remains "grounded", child eventually stops trying to complete school work because it is viewed as a lost cause and the child believes freedom will never be granted.

 

This is what happens with one of DS's friends who attends ps. Whenever his grades fall, he is grounded. Over the past years, I swear this kid has been grounded more often than not. This, to me, seems to indicate that the punishment is not effective.

[Elinor Everywhere]

I have been a miserable failure in so many ways in this area. I lean to the stick; my dh leans to the carrot.

 

The single most helpful advice I ever got was to do both. Here is an example:

 

Dh's way: I'll pay you $5 to catch the bus every day.

My way: If you don't catch the school bus every day, it will cost you $10 to pay for gas and trouble to get you to school.

 

Neither had any effect. THIS worked:

 

If you catch the bus, we pay you $5. If we drive you to school, you pay us $10.

 

Stick AND carrot.

 

Hmmm, this is interesting. I have never paid for grades before, but I am considering it this year (for several reasons that aren't germane to this topic). At first I was thinking that if my son gets all A's I would pay him $35 ($5 for each A). That's the carrot. But I know my son, and he will say, "Well, I don't want to work hard enough to get my English "B" up to an "A", so I'm only out 5 bucks." And the B in English would remain.

 

But with the stick & carrot approach, would I then say:

 

$5 for each A. But if you get a B, you owe ME $5. Thus, out of 7 classes, if 5 are A's and 2 are B's, he would only get $15.

 

But $15 might not even be worth it, you know? His first quarter (at ps) he received all A's, but this quarter he has gotten lazier as he's gotten used to the whole "school thing".

 

He is a kid who cannot be told "no EC" because he doesn't do any. He can't be removed from FB because he's not on. He can't be told he won't see his friends because he doesn't have any. He can't be told "no video games" because he's already there for other offenses, and he barely played to begin with (but he LOVES to play).

 

Hey.......now there's a thought. A good carrot for him might be: you get all A's, you get x amount of Wii time every week. Ooo, I love thinking out loud! :laugh:

[LaughingCat]

Perhaps I being too literal here, but have you ever sat down and said "It's time for me to stop having to remind you to get this done - how do you think you can remind yourself?" rather than thinking that by not reminding them they will realize they need to jump into the "gap"? I don't have older kids yet but I know I needed that kind of kick in the pants myself because I was oblivious (still true sometimes in fact :smilielol5: )

 

Of course, from my own self-experience again, that also means realizing that perhaps their first "method" won't actually work and they'll fall back into old habits (i.e. letting you do the reminding) so you might end up having the conversation multiple times.