northcoast Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I've read a couple threads that say WWS is good for developing some basic skills to become good writers. DS, 8th grader, has used IEW SWI B and has done well with it along with some of the theme books from IEW. This year we are using Starting Points and writing the worldview essay was painful! Can someone explain how WWS will help so that some day he can write an essay? It has become apparent that he can't write if he has to come up with content and that I don't know how to teach a writing a thesis statement, introduction, etc. Not to mention how to grade..... Can someone explain how WWS will get me to a point of writing essays? Am I missing some of the picture? Any recommendations on teaching composition so that when we are ready for writing essays we aren't struggling so much with a thesis, etc? Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathnmusic Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 :bigear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.... Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Have you seen this video by SWB explaining WWS? She also has audio lectures on the PHP website about teaching writing. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/audio-products/audio-lectures.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northcoast Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 Maybe what I'm really asking is how is outlining, writing summaries, and other things done in WWS going to help us come up with original content when the time comes? Is that covered in the lectures for purchase that were linked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.... Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) Maybe what I'm really asking is how is outlining, writing summaries, and other things done in WWS going to help us come up with original content when the time comes? I am not a writing expert, but it is my understanding that these are skills that need to be in place before a student can write essays. I'll try to find a better explanation for you and come back to my spot here. OK, here are a few things: Summarizing - the writing student learns to identify the plot of a story. Learning to identify plot makes it easier for a writer to write their *own* stories later. Outlining - Before a student can write an essay, they need to understand how writing is organized. Obviously, they're learning to identify topic sentence/main idea. Edited November 12, 2012 by starrbuck12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northcoast Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 I listened to SWB cds which I borrowed. Are they are the same as the MP3's?? Maybe I need to buy them and listen again. My notes show the "how to do." Maybe some who have followed SWB's ideas all the way through can chime in on how they saw the whole process working. I think I'm having trouble seeing how certain steps are going to get me to an end result... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.... Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I listened to SWB cds which I borrowed. Are they are the same as the MP3's?? Maybe I need to buy them and listen again. My notes show the "how to do." Maybe some who have followed SWB's ideas all the way through can chime in on how they saw the whole process working. I think I'm having trouble seeing how certain steps are going to get me to an end result... I added a couple of things to my post - stuff that she talks about in the beginning of WWS1. My kids are awake now, so 'puter time is over. :tongue_smilie: I hope you get some good answers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Maybe what I'm really asking is how is outlining, writing summaries, and other things done in WWS going to help us come up with original content when the time comes? Is that covered in the lectures for purchase that were linked? Do you mean that your son doesn't know what to write about if you assign an essay? I'm not sure if that's covered in any writing curriculum I'm aware of. Generally, he should just go with what he knows or what he wants to find out more about. My dd wrote a boatload of papers about different aspects of ballet, such as comparing ballet with modern dance, the pros and cons of starting children on pointe before age 13, the different instructional methods of ballet, analyzing Swan Lake, etc., etc. You can generally take a subject your child is interested in or knows a lot about and manipulate it to write almost any kind of essay. Current events are also a great way to inspire an essay. Have your son glance over the MSN homepage for topics or the web page of a news organization. He can select a news story and write an opinion paper on it. If there is a subject your child wants to learn more about, a research paper is an easy way to do that. Sometimes the topic depends on the required essay length. I'm not sure you can write a 20 page paper on the best age for beginning pointe work...that's more like a 3 page topic. So, as my college student just said last week after watching a Ken Burns epic, "Mom, I think I'll write about Prohibition. I'm pretty sure I can get 10-20 pages out of that." That's how we decide on topics around here. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northcoast Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 Thanks for the replies. It is very helpful to see the why of doing something (not just be told do this way and you'll have a good _______), especially if I have to back up and do something different than we have been doing. I welcome others' input on how WWS has worked for them and why. Even those who haven't used WWS but followed the suggestions on SWB's writing cds, share your experiences of why it worked. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northcoast Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 My son doesn't really know how to come up with a thesis statement, how to write an intro and conclusion. My talking through it didn't seem to help and I felt I didn't explain it well. I know good writing when I see it, but how to teach it??? And to be fair, writing about a Biblical worldview maybe have not been a great first essay topic..... Is there something out there to help us both? Maybe I just need to start with something like WWS, rely on SWB's suggestions for high school, and have faith that it will work so that when my son gets to college he can write (like his dad, whose work didn't make is easy for him to teach us) and not flounder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverMoon Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I've used parts of WWS and my dd was a beta tester for the first level, but it sounds like you're looking for something more like Lively Art of Writing. Lively Art teaches the steps of essay writing in small, manageable bites. It's a one semester course that is very easy to use, just be prepared to use your own writing topics. The topics to write about in the book are outdated for today's tweens/teens, but the writing instruction is solid. The only real requirement for beginning it would be being able to write a decent paragraph. If you search in the high school forum you'll find more threads about it, and schedules and worksheets made by WTM posters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) I've read a couple threads that say WWS is good for developing some basic skills to become good writers. DS, 8th grader, has used IEW SWI B and has done well with it along with some of the theme books from IEW. This year we are using Starting Points and writing the worldview essay was painful! Can someone explain how WWS will help so that some day he can write an essay? It has become apparent that he can't write if he has to come up with content and that I don't know how to teach a writing a thesis statement, introduction, etc. Not to mention how to grade..... Can someone explain how WWS will get me to a point of writing essays? Am I missing some of the picture? Any recommendations on teaching composition so that when we are ready for writing essays we aren't struggling so much with a thesis, etc? Thank you! I have been teaching WWS to a group of Jr. Highers/ high schoolers since last Jan. We are on week 31. I LOVE it. I am also a long-term IEW lover/user/former rep). WWS teaches writing skills in a logical progression, building on skills learned from one lesson to the next. The kids start with narration, one- level outlines, it builds to 2 level outlines, taking notes from source docs. The kids start by writing paragraphs and are soon writing papers. My kids (incl a normal 5th grader) are writing 3 paragraph to 3 page papers each week with NO groans. They GET it. It's not overwhelming, they know they can do it becasue the program eases them into mastery and demands repetition- the skills are introduced and then the kids practice them over and over but the manner in which they use them is engaging, the source docs GREAT. Like IEW- this course will teach the teacher how to teach. You don't have to know how to teach writing before you use the program. Just do what it says. Maybe what I'm really asking is how is outlining, writing summaries, and other things done in WWS going to help us come up with original content when the time comes? Is that covered in the lectures for purchase that were linked? This is NOT a creative writing course. Your kid will not be writing original short stories, novels or poetry with this program. That's an entirely different type of writing. This is a academic writing course. The kids have source documents that they learn to research. They take in the info, take notes, organize the notes, write from the notes and create their own papers from it. I love the entire section on plagerism, footnoting and citation. The kids are footnoting, learning how to use quotes, creating citation pages. Not only that they are learning some basic lit analysis. the BEST tool on the market right now IF you want your kids to be a rocking writer (and I am not endorsed by PHP in any way for writing this- lol! I just LOVE WWE and WWS, along with SOTW and other PHP products- PHP has filled a HUGE gap in the homeschooling market and I am so grateful). All that to say- you should give it a serious try. Get the TM along with the SM - very much worth the money! Edited November 12, 2012 by laughing lioness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northcoast Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 Thank you, laughing lioness! It's great to hear from an IEW user and a WWS user. I thought we were doing great with IEW. I'm glad to hear WWS will help me teach and that kids can write using this. I'm not looking for creative writing but some day this kid will have to write and the source content won't be provided like IEW.....:lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northcoast Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 Thanks, SilverMoon, for the suggestion of the Lively Art of Writing! I'll look into that also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) Sounds like your son is struggling with Invention. I have used IEW and WWS, neither focus on Invention. The best program by far that I have found to teach kids how to come up with something to say is Lost Tools of Writing. I wrote a comparison of numerous curricula here . WWS's goals are to get your student able to 1) be able to develop different types of paragraphs (description, narrative, comparison/contrast etc) 2) Develop research skills including documentation 3) Begin literary analysis Its focus is how to organize different types of paragraphs for their eventual use in a more complex essay. In contrast, Lost Tools of Writing focuses on coming up with something to say. They have a large sample on their website and if you contact the author he will send you additional material (at least he did for me.) Lost Tools of Writing is a curriculum and Lively art of Writing is a small book. Lively Art has a nice chapter on Thesis statements, but does not do as good a job on Invention as Lost Tools of Writing. Ruth in NZ Edited November 13, 2012 by lewelma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
................... Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 IMO if your son can't come up with original content then he needs to do creative writing first. I would try Story Starters by Karen Andreola. Also, is he well read in a variety of genre? Has he read at least a hundred books of fiction, historical fiction, poetry, etc? If he hasn't been exposed to excellent idea obviously it'll be harder for him to come up with excellence and beauty and interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 IMO if your son can't come up with original content then he needs to do creative writing first. Or just get older...coming up with original content can be very intimidating to young children. You are asking them to do more than just write, you are asking them to come up with an idea, develop an idea, organize an idea. These are higher level thinking skills. Hence the "What I did on my summer vacation..." freak out by many eled kids. Also, is he well read in a variety of genre? Has he read at least a hundred books of fiction, historical fiction, poetry, etc? If he hasn't been exposed to excellent idea obviously it'll be harder for him to come up with excellence and beauty and interest. :iagree:Writer's are readers. It's that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northcoast Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 We are Sonlight readers although I know that is not the total WTM way. If my son had his way, all of his reading would be JRR Tolkien. He reads those books over and over again. Thanks everyone for all ideas/curriculum to pursue! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) This year we are using Starting Points and writing the worldview essay was painful! Can someone explain how WWS will help so that some day he can write an essay? It has become apparent that he can't write if he has to come up with content and that I don't know how to teach a writing a thesis statement, introduction, etc. Not to mention how to grade..... Can someone explain how WWS will get me to a point of writing essays? WWS 1 will help the student to come up with original content. :D The part about coming up with original content comes at the end, with the final project at the end of the book, after some basic topoi (biographical sketch, personal description, place description, scientific description, chrono. narr. of past events, chrono. narr. of sci. discovery, and a few more) are taught throughout the book. The final project instructions will walk the student how to come up with content. By then, it should be fairly easy to come up with content, because he will have gone through the process of learning how to read, summarize, outline-to-see-how-topoi-are-used/written-in-paragraphs, take notes, put those notes in order depending on the topos used, and put all that together into compositions. Basically, all he has to do is think about what he wants to write about (within some guidelines - biog. sketch within a chrono. narr. of past event? sci. description within a chrono. narr. of sci. discovery? and several other topoi combination possibilities), and then think about how to put it together with the skills he has learned from WWS. I, who have never learned how to think/write this way, think that the way WWS teaches brilliantly freeing. And yes, it introduces writing introductions. And yes, it gives you all you need to be able to evaluate finished pieces. The TM holds your hand all the way through, and the student book tells the student exactly how to think his/her way through each instruction, in a way that will cause the student to apply the skills to future writing. The student has to do things such as, after learning about a particular topos, writing down (on a chart to keep in the reference section of his notebook) the pattern of the topos - in other words, the pattern of how to write another topos on another topic. The student will refer to these charts while coming up with topics to write about in the final project. WWS also teaches about writing conclusions. I'm not sure if WWS will talk about writing thesis statements (so far I haven't seen that), but in a minute I'm going to hunt for the scope and sequence for WWS and link it for you. That will probably be really helpful. (I also suspect that even if WWS doesn't talk about thesis statements, that the future Writing With Style will) But, from everything you wrote in this thread, I think WWS will be a pleasant surprise for both you and your son. Also, in case you are panicking about maybe not getting to thesis statements anytime soon or not digging into persuasive essays anytime soon, I read somewhere on this forum where SWB mentioned that all the foundational stuff for WWS may be covered in just three levels instead of four (although a fourth level will be written for those who are just reaching it in 8th grade), so ideally your 8th grader would maybe still have time to get to all that after doing WWS (depending on when WWS 2 and 3 get published). Hmmm...let me see if I can find some other reassuring links for you. Back in a few minutes... Edited November 14, 2012 by Colleen in NS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) See this link (posted over a year ago, so changes may have happened since it was written) for SWB's link to the WWS 1-4 scope and sequence: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showpost.php?p=3186313&postcount=131 (also see posts 132 and 133 in that same thread, for her confirmation that WWS teaches skills for expository essays and not persuasive essays - just like I thought. I think the persuasive essay skills will come in Writing With Style) Edited November 13, 2012 by Colleen in NS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) And a few more hopefully helpful posts (written more recently than the above linked S&S): http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showpost.php?p=4214942&postcount=32 http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showpost.php?p=4214900&postcount=271 http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showpost.php?p=4214953&postcount=273 I'm just noticing these were all written within 20 minutes of each other. :D OK, hope something here helps. Edited November 13, 2012 by Colleen in NS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) Can someone explain how WWS will help so that some day he can write an essay? Maybe what I'm really asking is how is outlining, writing summaries, and other things done in WWS going to help us come up with original content when the time comes? I listened to SWB cds which I borrowed. Are they are the same as the MP3's?? Maybe I need to buy them and listen again. My notes show the "how to do." Maybe some who have followed SWB's ideas all the way through can chime in on how they saw the whole process working. I think I'm having trouble seeing how certain steps are going to get me to an end result... I had some more thoughts as I was looking through WWS 2. WWS is the detailed fleshing out of all that is in the WTM book and in the audio lectures that were linked. It tells you exactly what to do, and shows you thinking processes you will need for later writing. For example, outlining. Outlining is a great tool for notetaking, for understanding what a passage is saying. It's also a great tool for examining a passage for *how* it is written - what topoi are used. WWS helps the student to do this close examination, and then uses that examination to teach the student how to use the particular topos. While I understood from the lectures that outlining was good for examining passages, I would not have known how to teach the technique from this examination. WWS helps. More about coming up with content. I think in the high school writing lecture, SWB gives lists of questions to ask oneself about specific content areas. For example, she lists some general questions you can ask yourself about science, to generate some topics (and start looking for content in books) to write about. Same for history and literature. And now that I think about it, WWS (with its topoi charts) gets more specific with these topic/idea-generating questions, in different content areas. lol, I really think WWS will get you where you want to go. You can get samples from the Peace Hill Press website. I bet if you e-mail them with questions, they will help you, too. Edited November 14, 2012 by Colleen in NS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocoholic Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Have you seen this video by SWB explaining WWS? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNs2ImH27E0 She also has audio lectures on the PHP website about teaching writing. http://www.welltrain...o-lectures.html Can you please tell me how you found that video? I've searched You Tube. I'm looking for one that explains WWE by SWB. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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