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Seasoned middle/Highschooler: need Spelling advice from those who've BTDT (xposted)


Johanna
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I am torn at this time over what approach to take for spelling. I see that many go the "spelling rule" route and teach 70+ spelling rules (ie: SWR, AAS) for success.

Here is my question: if you went that approach, how successfully did your dc ACTUALLY utilize those rules when it got down to the meat of it.

It just seems so tedious to learn ALL the rules, because when I think about how I spell....I picture the word in my mind after breaking it down into more manageable parts.

I cant imagine retrieving an answer from all these "rules" floating around in my head. I can see learning a "specific" rule when I have a "specific" problem (kinda on an "as needed" basis) but, it feels so tedious to spend so much time mastering ALLLL these rules. Which I know can take soooo much time KWIM???

 

When I see how dc learn and get ready to spell in spelling bees and such, it seems that it is "root words" and "derivitives" that help them the most. (Anyone watch the movie: "akeela and the Bee");)

 

Are the rules just for "super spelling strugglers" to give them a way to attack the problem when they cant internalize the words for themselves??

 

I guess I need to see if it really is worth the time to learn ALL these rules, and spend sooo much time on it. If i go down that road, then i dont want to turn around and jump ship. But, I am not convinced I want to take that route. I just havent seen tangible fruit of it's effectiveness long term ...my oldest is 8.5(which is why i am asking you all)

 

ANy insight to help me wade through this would be sooooo helpful!!

Thanks a bunch!

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I am torn at this time over what approach to take for spelling. I see that many go the "spelling rule" route and teach 70+ spelling rules (ie: SWR, AAS) for success.

Here is my question: if you went that approach, how successfully did your dc ACTUALLY utilize those rules when it got down to the meat of it.

It just seems so tedious to learn ALL the rules, because when I think about how I spell....I picture the word in my mind after breaking it down into more manageable parts.

I cant imagine retrieving an answer from all these "rules" floating around in my head. I can see learning a "specific" rule when I have a "specific" problem (kinda on an "as needed" basis) but, it feels so tedious to spend so much time mastering ALLLL these rules. Which I know can take soooo much time KWIM???

 

When I see how dc learn and get ready to spell in spelling bees and such, it seems that it is "root words" and "derivitives" that help them the most. (Anyone watch the movie: "akeela and the Bee");)

 

Are the rules just for "super spelling strugglers" to give them a way to attack the problem when they cant internalize the words for themselves??

 

I guess I need to see if it really is worth the time to learn ALL these rules, and spend sooo much time on it. If i go down that road, then i dont want to turn around and jump ship. But, I am not convinced I want to take that route. I just havent seen tangible fruit of it's effectiveness long term ...my oldest is 8.5(which is why i am asking you all)

 

ANy insight to help me wade through this would be sooooo helpful!!

Thanks a bunch!

 

I use Writing Road to Reading, which in my understanding, is what SWR is based from. In WRTR, there are only 29 spelling rules. There are 70 phonograms (letters and letter combinations) for which to memorize the sounds. I'm not positive, but I think SWR pretty much has the same items.

 

You start off by memorizing the phonogram sounds, which, with flashcards, doesn't take that long, if you see, hear, say, and write them a little bit every day. Then you start working through the spelling lists, using the memorized sounds to coach a child through the spelling of the word in the notebook. THEN you apply the rules, as they occur in the words. You don't have to memorize all 29 rules at once. You will get them memorized as you analyze words every day in the spelling notebook.

 

I know you asked about older kids, and my oldest is only 10, but as we worked through the WRTR spelling list, he did get everything memorized, the way I described. And as for me (I am older than high school :)), **I** was finally able to learn to spell (and read words I'd previously skip over if I'd never seen them before and memorized as whole words) at age 34 or so. :) This was once I memorized the phonogram sounds and started working through the spelling notebook myself. It didn't take long for me to start recognizing rule patterns in the words. After awhile I found myself analyzing words for sounds and rules all the time. I do think it's worthwhile to pursue, because it's a set of tools you can use for the rest of your life. The rules won't be floating around arbitrarily in your head, they will have been applied to spelling words, and internalized. Once that happens, you can go on using them.

 

Root words do help in spelling derivatives, but it helps first if you know how to spell the root words. WRTR does this in the lists. For example, today in my daughter's spelling list, the words "plant" and "planted" were bracketed together. My first question to her was, "What is the root word of planted?" She thought, and said, "plant." So then we started off with spelling plant first, then planted.

 

hth

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You don't have to memorize all 29 rules at once. You will get them memorized as you analyze words every day in the spelling notebook.

 

I know you asked about older kids, and my oldest is only 10, but as we worked through the WRTR spelling list, he did get everything memorized, the way I described. And as for me (I am older than high school :)), **I** was finally able to learn to spell (and read words I'd previously skip over if I'd never seen them before and memorized as whole words) at age 34 or so. :) This was once I memorized the phonogram sounds and started working through the spelling notebook myself. It didn't take long for me to start recognizing rule patterns in the words. After awhile I found myself analyzing words for sounds and rules all the time. I do think it's worthwhile to pursue, because it's a set of tools you can use for the rest of your life. The rules won't be floating around arbitrarily in your head, they will have been applied to spelling words, and internalized. Once that happens, you can go on using them.

 

Root words do help in spelling derivatives, but it helps first if you know how to spell the root words. WRTR does this in the lists. For example, today in my daughter's spelling list, the words "plant" and "planted" were bracketed together. My first question to her was, "What is the root word of planted?" She thought, and said, "plant." So then we started off with spelling plant first, then planted.

 

hth

 

THis is a good point. I guess once, the rules get practiced and applied to your spelling words....then they arent just these "abstract" rules floating in your head. But, now they have "meaning". I guess that is the difference between natural spellers vs non- natural. My dd internalizes the patterns in words and then figures out the rules. Where as a "non- natural " speller would not be able to internalize with out a "systmatic approach" ie: rules. So, they would need to start by learning the rules??

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Johanna, I can't remember what all you've used (you should put that in your sig!). As Colleen said, there are a lot less rules and whatnot that you're making it out to be. Also, a lot of what is covered in those super-thorough spelling programs as phonograms and rules are things most people cover in a phonics program. It's just with a super-thorough program, you get all that integrated, where there is just one set of consistent rules and names for everything, both for the phonics stage and the spelling stage. I always thought it was weird to teach phonics one way and spelling another, when they're both the same thing.

 

Now you asked if it carries over. Have you done a program like this yet and has it carried over for your dd? Every kid is different. Some kids are going to spell easily no matter what, and some kids are going to struggle, no matter what. It would be in error to take the example of someone who's dc struggles to carry things over (NOT a natural speller) and assume the problem is the spelling program. Reality is, they would have struggled anyway, and that extra-effort spelling program is probably heading some things off at that pass that would have been even WORSE! Don't assume that your dc struggling with something is because you didn't find the magic program, or the reverse, that the magic program would have made them a whiz at it. Some kids just have a hard time and need more effort. ;)

 

This is my personal opinion, but I think it's also really easy to blame the spelling program when really the parent just isn't having the kid flat WRITE enough and USE the words enough. I did that myself, so I can say that. I think our kids need to be writing way more than we tend to have them. It's just too easy to make everything oral, when they'd be writing those things in school. Then we wonder why the spelling doesn't stick.

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Any time you make knowledge more explicit, by learning a clear set of rules, the dc will understand it better and be able to apply it to new situations better than when they merely infer the patterns. Explicit teaching allows them to progress more quickly than they naturally would on their own.

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Johanna,

 

I have two dss that are atrocious spellers. I used WRTR (the original program which SWR is based off of) with my oldest for K-5th. I then tried Spelling Power, traditional spelling list textbooks (ACE), PZ, and How to Teach Spelling.

 

THe only program that helped my oldest was How to Teach Spelling. It is an OG based spelling program (meaning it teaches the 72 base phonograms and rules) with spiral dictation. He graduated still being a poor speller.

 

With my 2nd ds (who seems to process info much like oldest ds.....very math and science oriented/advanced and weaker in the LA areas), I have discovered that the morpheme/phoneme/spiral dictation approach has a much higher success rate and transference across other assignments. His spelling improved dramatically this yr with much greater retention and more spelling awareness than ever before (he was in 6th this past yr)

 

The problem with the strictly WRTR approach is that huge numbers of words don't fit a rule. When you have kids that KNOW the rules and expect to apply them just like in math and science and they have poor visualization skills for spelling.........you end up with words that are spelled phonetically, break no rules, and are simply wrong.

 

I wrote a post about this a couple of days ago. (I am copying and pasting it below b/c I don't have any idea how to link just it and not the entire thread, sorry)

 

Older kids who struggle with spelling are typically kids who don't visualize/recall spelling patterns easily.

 

I disagree with the idea that simply re-teaching phonics/rules will improve spelling b/c the majority of higher level spelling words do not follow a rule. It requires memorization of umpteen rule breakers (even with "little" words).

 

For example, ow is usually used before a final d, l, or n. gown, growl, crowd, etc

However, what about loud, cloud, foul, etc.

 

How about deciding how to spell /shun/ at the end of a word. Yes, you can easily teach not to use shun, and that tion, cion, and sion say /shun/ at the end of a word, but deciding to spell decision, nation, conclusion, suspicion, etc. takes memorization beyond the /shun/ rule. You have to know which one!!

 

A better approach is a combination of phoneme, morpheme, dictation approach. There are several different programs.......Apples and Pears (not the same as Apples), Spelling through Morphographs (geared specifically for 4-12 graders, but expensive!!), and Spelling Mastery (grade level geared, expensive, but not nearly as much as Spelling through Morphographs)

 

I used Apples and Pears this past yr with my 6th grade ds and it improved his spelling dramatically. It really made him spelling conscious. I was planning on Spelling through Morphographs for next yr b/c I found the student books really cheap. But I haven't found the teacher books for under $250, so I am going back to Apples and Pears b/c after reviewing the Spelling through Morphograph materials, they are very comparable yet no where equivalent in price!!

 

http://www.prometheantrust.org/usshop.htm (scroll down the page to find it. There is an online placement test and the entire program is viewable online so you can decide what you think of the approach without buying blind)

 

 

HTH

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Momof7,

Thanks:-). Everything that you said is exactly why i am having the hesitations to go to "rule-based" way (ie: AAS). Those examples that you sited were right on with proving my point that much of "spelling" is actually memorization and practice.

OhE,

Thanks for your response! I know that phonics is basically "rules" as well....but, it feels more like "patterns" in the early stage then "rules" KWIM???

I am just so torn as to what approach to start my ds2nd off with. I dabbled a bit with SWR with dd(rising 4th) but, I am seeing that she is a natural speller who just memorizes and applies with exposure (which is why i am leaning towards "dictation" ...I also have the calvert cdrom to have her do on her own).

 

I definitely will not go teh SWR approach again...but, not sure about diving into AAS either??

maybe it will have to be a matter of testing it out and time will tell sorta thing?? as it was with my dd.

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THis is a good point. I guess once, the rules get practiced and applied to your spelling words....then they arent just these "abstract" rules floating in your head. But, now they have "meaning". I guess that is the difference between natural spellers vs non- natural. My dd internalizes the patterns in words and then figures out the rules. Where as a "non- natural " speller would not be able to internalize with out a "systmatic approach" ie: rules. So, they would need to start by learning the rules??

 

I only have my son and daughter to closely compare on this (I tutored 11 other kids with WRTR over the course of two years, but that is not the same as working at it every day), but here goes...

 

ds is a "natural speller," having memorized the phonograms by age 4 (on his own) and started reading just before age 5. So when he started the spelling notebook at age 5, he found it easy to write the words down, because he had already seen so many of them from reading. And the phonograms and learning and applying the rules came easily to him. BUT, I still kept him going with the notebook, so he could practice the sounds and rules on higher level words. When things got challenging, he balked (he couldn't rely on words he had memorized how to spell). But I made him keep with it, so he could learn and analyze those more complicated rules. I stopped doing formal spelling with him sometime in 4th grade, but as time goes on, I will have him analyze more words in his spelling notebook. Esp. as he comes to higher level words in reading over the years. Or whenever I see from his writing that he doesn't know the spelling of a word. I'll have him get out his notebook and analyze it the same way we did in his earlier years. It's what I do for myself now, instead of skipping over words!

 

dd...I would not say she is a "natural speller" - she had to work harder at memorizing the phonograms, and work harder at sounding out words when she was learning to read. And she learned to read around age 6.5. By 7 she was fairly comfortable, but she still will try to skip words when reading aloud, or make up her own word if she doesn't want to sound it out (and I make her sound it out when she does this). The whole process just took longer than it took ds. But I did it the same way - had her memorize phonogram sounds first, then started the spelling notebook and learning the rules as they came up in the words. She has started back at square one in the notebook several times, and that is OK, because she is getting the practice with sounds and rules on the easy words. I'm building her success by doing this. She is spelling more and more of those easy words correctly now.

 

I would think that learning rules first would be more difficult, because there is nothing to apply them to yet. The phonograms seem to be more immediately useful to the child.

 

I agree with OhElizabeth about the need to teach the child the skills they will need, at whatever pace is needed, and in the detail that is needed. And I think this applies to natural and non-natural spellers. It can be hard mental work for the Mom at first, but I have found it to be worth it. Phew! When I was learning how to use WRTR (with my Mom's help - she was a Spalding teacher), I spent hours at a time, for days at a time, going through the book, underlining things, writing notes, dreaming about phonograms, going through the analyzing process myself. Then I crazily plunged into tutoring another boy for $, and learned more as I did that. Now? It's a breeze for me, and I'm glad I laid those foundations in my kids.

 

hth

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Those examples that you sited were right on with proving my point that much of "spelling" is actually memorization and practice.

 

Sigh, I had a response all typed out, and my computer ate it. I'll try again.

 

I see I posted after you decided not to go with SWR, but I'll just mention one more angle to spelling.

 

WRTR (and I assume others like it) give a foundation in sound and rule patterns from which to work. After that, you can take a new word that there is difficulty with in spelling, find the right spelling, and analyze that word in the spelling notebook (or in your mind). Find and mark the sound and rule patterns you see in it, then memorize the rest of the parts that don't seem to have a rule (such as which /shun/ sound to use, or whether to use /ou/ or /ow/ in cloud). I have found this process to be very helpful to me, and my "natural and non-natural speller" children, in memorizing the parts of the word that don't fall into a pattern. For us, it's the analyzing that helps cement the spelling. But we needed the foundation first.

 

Good luck in your quest.

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Any time you make knowledge more explicit, by learning a clear set of rules, the dc will understand it better and be able to apply it to new situations better than when they merely infer the patterns. Explicit teaching allows them to progress more quickly than they naturally would on their own.

 

I can't get the "I agree" icon to work (computer probs today), but...I agree! :)

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Colleen,

 

I am not disagreeing that the premise of WRTR helps spelling (most certainly it does with reading) However, the morpheme approach combined with a phoneme approach really is more successful. It breaks words down systematically to roots in addition to acknowledging phonemes. For kids that can't make the transition from the basic phongram/rule approach, it is simply better IMHO.

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momof7,

I like what i see from apples and pears for my dd8 (i like where it is going).

However, is this program just for "struggling" spellers?? She seems to be well advanced from book 1, but i dont want her to miss anything vital?

Where should I start her? Is there a diagnositic test?

thanks!

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For kids that can't make the transition from the basic phongram/rule approach, it is simply better IMHO.

 

When I read Johanna's original post with the mention of SWR, and some of her followup comments, it didn't sound to me like she was having this difficulty. So I thought some of my experience with WRTR might be useful to her.

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It breaks words down systematically to roots in addition to acknowledging phonemes.

 

Is the above quote basically what you mean by morphemic (new word for me - had to look it up in the dictionary and encyclopedia) approach?

 

I looked at the Apples and Pears link you provided (couldn't get the other site to come up, but I'm having comp. probs. today). It looks to me like it's a different approach to the same phonogram/rule based spelling as is in WRTR, with a morphemic approach added.

 

If I am understanding all this correctly, then I'm thinking that we already combine a morphemic/phonemic approach here, with WRTR (we just use it for spelling and learning to read), English grammar study via R&S, Latin grammar study via LC moving to Henle, and Greek/Latin roots study VfCR. And if I'm understanding this correctly, then I'm also thinking it's a case of "same skills, different programs or approaches or combinations."

 

So (my completely new, untested speculations and conclusions to follow) one could either use a spelling program that combines the two approaches, or one could use a sound/rule based spelling program in combination with some type of grammar and word study over the years. I didn't have these labels before today for these ideas, but I could see that if I had WRTR as a base, then it would be useful for more advanced spelling, as we study future grammar, Latin, Greek/Latin roots, and lit. reading.

 

Throwing this post out there in hopes of not making a complete fool of myself, LOL!! I like learning new things/making new connections in my mind, and posting is sometimes my way of processing and tweaking new ideas....

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Colleen,

I see where you are getting at, and it seems to make sense (to me anyways). Its like the Apples and Pears is a soup that combines it all...where as you are using the "salad" approach and combining them with seperate resources.

 

Now i am making no sense:001_huh:

LOL!

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Colleen,

I see where you are getting at, and it seems to make sense (to me anyways). Its like the Apples and Pears is a soup that combines it all...where as you are using the "salad" approach and combining them with seperate resources.

 

Now i am making no sense:001_huh:

LOL!

 

Yes! Glad I didn't make a fool of myself, LOL. I like the soup vs. salad explanation. I was just following the WTM recs and it seems to be the salad. :)

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It looks to me like it's a different approach to the same phonogram/rule based spelling as is in WRTR, with a morphemic approach added.

 

If I am understanding all this correctly, then I'm thinking that we already combine a morphemic/phonemic approach here, with WRTR (we just use it for spelling and learning to read), English grammar study via R&S, Latin grammar study via LC moving to Henle, and Greek/Latin roots study VfCR. And if I'm understanding this correctly, then I'm also thinking it's a case of "same skills, different programs or approaches or combinations."

 

 

Yep, exactly!! :)

 

I think that the OG approach is valuable. But I think it is a limited tool. Incorporating the morpheme/whole word/spiral dictation pieces increases the tools at their disposal.

 

You know, I didn't pick up on the fact that Johanna's child isn't older until later in the thread. I guess I didn't read the age well enough and made the assumption based on the question being addressed in connection with older kids.

 

At 8 1/2 it is probably hard to say whether or not OG based instruction is enough. For many kids it is.......especially those that imprint visually. (several of my kids are fairly natural spellers and could get away with basic OG instruction, though I am not teaching it that way anymore.)

 

But kids that are still struggling with spelling at ages 10+ (by 10 their brains are processing written info with brain maturity), my experience is definitely that the 3 pronged approach is more successful in transferring spelling into other areas. I think research with struggling spellers supports that view. It is why you see it marketed for kids with spelling difficulties.

 

If you can get to SRA's direct instruction website and find the Spelling Mastery page, I just found that they have a link to research that explains why the phoneme/morpheme/whole word/spiral dictation route is the most successful. Obviously their article is promoting their products. However, there are others like Apples and Pears that are based on the same research/principle.

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yes, momof7. My dd is 8.5 (she is my natural speller) but, I am also asking about my up and coming 2nd grade ds (7)...because I dont know which route to take with him.

I feel that my dd will be just fine with anything. But, it is my ds7 that worries me. I feel that i need to pick a route and just stick to it (whatever it may be).

It is the jumping around that would mess him up, I believe. So, I am trying to see if AAS is something that i am going to want to stick out for the long haul. Or do I want to just do the regualar "spelling lists" that are grouped by patterns???

For some reason, AAS just seems so foreign to me, because I never learned phonograms/spelling rules. I learned to spell from memory. So, its hard for me to imagine utilizing those tools. Maybe I would have been better off learning in the OG way?? OR the "three pronged way" you were describing. It is hard to believe in a method when you cant see the fruit from it yet, KWIM?

thanks for your insights, they have been helpful!

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Johanna,

 

Learning the phonograms and basic spelling rules at age 7 is actually a very good idea. The early basic spelling words do conform in general to rules. They are also incredibly valuable in for higher level reading skills (English is majority phonetically based for reading). All of my kids learn the phonograms and that the rules are general guidelines when they are in K+ b/c I teach reading via your basic OG POV.

 

It is once you start hitting about 4th/5th grade level words that trying to rely on rules leads to confusion if they can't visually imprint which choice is the correct one. It is at this point that I see the major weakness in the approach. FWIW......I am starting the 3 prong approach in 3rd now.

 

HTH.

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Johanna,

 

Learning the phonograms and basic spelling rules at age 7 is actually a very good idea. The early basic spelling words do conform in general to rules. They are also incredibly valuable in for higher level reading skills (English is majority phonetically based for reading). All of my kids learn the phonograms and that the rules are general guidelines when they are in K+ b/c I teach reading via your basic OG POV.

 

It is once you start hitting about 4th/5th grade level words that trying to rely on rules leads to confusion if they can't visually imprint which choice is the correct one. It is at this point that I see the major weakness in the approach. FWIW......I am starting the 3 prong approach in 3rd now.

 

HTH.

 

THis was very good for me to hear, and gave me the push that I need to go ahead with AAS and see where he (ds7) ends up in the next two years with it. Then i can reevaluate when he is in 4th grade to see if he needs the other methods. THe phonograms will also push his reading skills along (double benefits)

As far as dd8, I am still perpelexed as where to go. She had the phonogram foundation (swr in 2nd), and can spell well above grade level. But, I know that she still needs skills to keep excelling or she will hit a wall. When i did the diagnostic test for Apples and pears, she was confidently able to spell level C words.

I wonder if megawords would be a good route to go?? Or I may just do Sentence dictation and have a Good encoder book on hand for troublesome words. Then there is moving on to latin and greek roots as an option.

Oh these decisions!

I cant thank you enough for your help!

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I wonder if megawords would be a good route to go?? Or I may just do Sentence dictation

 

I am glad that you asked about Megawords. I have been following this thread and trying to make sense of all of it. I think I am more confused that when I started. Right now we are mainly using Hannah Wilson's Word Attack. I plan on using Megawords when my dd is a little older. I am just not sure if I am doing enough right now. I like the rules and dictation in WA, but my dd seems to need more practice. We are going through the beginning dictation sentences again. I think it is helping, but it is a slow process. I sometimes wonder if we are doing enough practice.

 

Jan

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But, it is my ds7 that worries me. I feel that i need to pick a route and just stick to it (whatever it may be).

 

I never learned phonograms/spelling rules. I learned to spell from memory. So, its hard for me to imagine utilizing those tools. Maybe I would have been better off learning in the OG way?? OR the "three pronged way" you were describing. It is hard to believe in a method when you cant see the fruit from it yet, KWIM?

 

"Will you have the soup or salad, Ma'am?" :D

 

I think the soup-like "three pronged way" includes something along the "OG way" - I don't think you have to choose either/or.

 

Ingredients are flexible and can be mixed the way you want. Whether you choose soup or salad, just make sure you mix the right ingredients, starting with basic phonogram/rule patterns training (as you can see, I'm convinced this is a basic ingredient :lol:). You can add in the other ingredients as you see the need (copywork/dictation, grammar, Latin if desired, vocab. roots - middle grades, later writing skills - and I'm pretty convinced about these ingredients, too, when added in over time - they all serve to reinforce each other for a pleasant dining experience).

 

I had the same experience of never having learned phonograms/spelling rules, and of learning spelling by memory. It's a good thing I was a visual learner, I guess, or I'd have struggled early on. But by high school, that one ability didn't do me any good anymore, without the other skills (soup/salad ingredients). I struggled through English classes, lit., foreign language, etc..

 

Then I started learning the basic spelling patterns through using the WRTR notebook, and started teaching my kids writing techniques from WTM, and grammar. I found I was starting to analyze things more and think more clearly, about many things, not just how to spell words. I want to pass those abilities on to my kids, by teaching them these skills. I now see all these soup/salad ingredients as very useful tools for future study and future life and future thinking for myself.

 

You see, we all know soup or salad is good for us. :lol: You just have to decide which dish is easier for you to learn, prepare, and serve, and which ingredients would be healthiest for your kids.

 

EDIT: and now I see you've decided on the soup. Enjoy! This stuff has all been a huge learning curve for me, too, over the past 5 years.

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LOL! I think that we are going to go with the main course for him ds7(OG way via AAS). But, as he gets a bit older and is a stronger reader, I will add some salad ingredients (will anyone know what we are talking about ;))LOL!

 

And for dd8.5.....hmmmm....the jury is still out. I think I may go Megawords route and add in and "encoder/decoder book" to pick up when we get to troublesome word. So, that I can teach her to analyze those hard words.

We are going to do latin and greek roots starting in 5th grade (but, going to dabble a bit with roots via the newest edition of "wordly wise")

 

How does that sound?? Feedback??

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LOL! I think that we are going to go with the main course for him ds7(OG way via AAS). But, as he gets a bit older and is a stronger reader, I will add some salad ingredients (will anyone know what we are talking about ;))LOL!

 

And for dd8.5.....hmmmm....the jury is still out. I think I may go Megawords route and add in and "encoder/decoder book" to pick up when we get to troublesome word. So, that I can teach her to analyze those hard words.

We are going to do latin and greek roots starting in 5th grade (but, going to dabble a bit with roots via the newest edition of "wordly wise")

 

How does that sound?? Feedback??

 

I know, I hope I haven't confused people more with all the talk of soup and salad. Anyway, your main course, with adding more ingredients (skills, in case anyone is confused) sounds like it will be great!

 

I don't specifically know about Megawords, but from what you say, it sounds like you are including most of the skills along the way for your dd. I think you mentioned previously that she did SWR, so some method of analyzing later words sounds good to me. That's what my ds10 does here. He's done formal spelling lessons, but will keep using the notebook to analyze difficult-to-him words.

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I have been following this thread and trying to make sense of all of it. I think I am more confused that when I started.

 

Is there anything I posted that made you more confused? I don't know anything specifically about the programs you mentioned, but if I can clarify anything I posted, please let me know.

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Is there anything I posted that made you more confused? I don't know anything specifically about the programs you mentioned, but if I can clarify anything I posted, please let me know.

 

I am still confused with what exactly is a morpheme, and if I have those things covered in other ways. I know a morpheme includes prefixes, and suffixes, but I am not sure what else. We are covering prefixes and suffixes in grammar and will cover them more more in Megawords when we get to 4th.

 

I think I just need to think on this for awhile and let it just marinate in my brain for a few days.

 

Jan

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I am still confused with what exactly is a morpheme, and if I have those things covered in other ways.

 

My dictionary says that a morpheme is an element of a word that cannot be divided into smaller, meaningful parts (like the suffix "ly" means something, but just the letter "y" doesn't). So I'm guessing that the study of morphemes includes prefixes, suffixes, root words, derivatives, and inflections/how the same word changes according to how it's used, like sit/sitting/sat).

 

After I figured out what this meant, I realized I am already including these items - I just didn't have those labels for what we do. We do spelling by analyzing sounds/rules, English grammar, Latin, and vocab roots study (just started vocab. in 5th grade).

 

hth

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My dictionary says that a morpheme is an element of a word that cannot be divided into smaller, meaningful parts (like the suffix "ly" means something, but just the letter "y" doesn't). So I'm guessing that the study of morphemes includes prefixes, suffixes, root words, derivatives, and inflections/how the same word changes according to how it's used, like sit/sitting/sat).

hth

 

That does help. Several of those are things that we will cover in grammar. I think the biggest thing we will want to add is root words. I am not sure if we will study Latin or just root words, but that is a whole other topic.

Jan

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Gosh, I am not a seasoned homeschooler at all, but I do have an English degree and spelling/writing has always been my "thing," so to speak.

 

I don't know the rules of spelling...other than to say "i before e except after c." That is about it. I spell from memory and dictation. If the word is not spelled the way it sounds, chances are, I have memorized it and just regurgitate it.

 

The one spelling program I have found that really works for my son, who is in 4th grade this year and is a terrible speller, is spelling power. I don't know why it works...but it does!

 

Other than to say, "I don't think you should sit and teach your child every spelling rule," I am not sure how much I have helped. LOL Oh well, the thought that counts, right? ;)

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Gosh, I am not a seasoned homeschooler at all, but I do have an English degree and spelling/writing has always been my "thing," so to speak.

 

I don't know the rules of spelling...other than to say "i before e except after c." That is about it. I spell from memory and dictation. If the word is not spelled the way it sounds, chances are, I have memorized it and just regurgitate it.

 

The one spelling program I have found that really works for my son, who is in 4th grade this year and is a terrible speller, is spelling power. I don't know why it works...but it does!

 

Other than to say, "I don't think you should sit and teach your child every spelling rule," I am not sure how much I have helped. LOL Oh well, the thought that counts, right? ;)

 

 

Thanks, you sound just like me. That was the only spelling rule that i ever memorized and I was always mad when it didnt really work for every instance.:confused:

 

Its funny that you mentioned SWO, because this is another one that i was looking at for my 8.5yo natural speller. Either that or just plain ol' studied dictation!

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