Normal range of bathroom needs

[Mom-ninja.]

What is the normal range of time to go between bowel movements for an 8 yr old boy?

 

What physical problems can manifest by holding it for as long as one possibly can?

[TranquilMind]

What is the normal range of time to go between bowel movements for an 8 yr old boy?

 

What physical problems can manifest by holding it for as long as one possibly can?

 

I don't know, but if he isn't going every day or at least every 2, then giving him a lot more raw fruits and veggies and fiber will help. Mine used to do this. I actually bought a ToTo toilet so it wouldn't clog up so much. You just can't go three days and then flush, if you know what I mean.

 

Anyway, as he got older and ate more raw food, this problem resolved itself.

 

Anyway, I hope you get an answer that helps.

[Tammi K]

I have no idea what a 'normal' range would be because I never pay attention to when my children go. I never could understand why the doctor would ask me that question when they had their physicals. Ask them!

 

But, to your second question: constipation, impaction, distended colon, just to name a few.

[ondreeuh]

Google "toxic megacolon" and "encopresis."

 

A half-dose of Miralax daily works for one of my kids. The other takes magnesium (400 or 500 mg).

[Mom-ninja.]

I don't know, but if he isn't going every day or at least every 2, then giving him a lot more raw fruits and veggies and fiber will help. Mine used to do this. I actually bought a ToTo toilet so it wouldn't clog up so much. You just can't go three days and then flush, if you know what I mean.

 

Anyway, as he got older and ate more raw food, this problem resolved itself.

 

Anyway, I hope you get an answer that helps.

 

What is a ToTo toilet?

 

Did your ds purposely not go and adding fiber made it harder for him to hold it as long?

 

If he was purposely holding it, why?

 

But, to your second question: constipation, impaction, distended colon, just to name a few.

 

I wonder when these issues could present themselves.

[TranquilMind]

Kleine Hexe: What is a ToTo toilet?

 

The brand with the largest trap in the bottom. ;)

 

 

Did your ds purposely not go and adding fiber made it harder for him to hold it as long?

 

If he was purposely holding it, why?

 

I don't think he was consciously doing it, but there were just so much more interesting things to do than have a bowel movement. And all that wiping just took up time he could be spending on Legos. It's not uncommon. So I just gave him lots more raw food snacks and told him over and over that he'd be healthier and feel better if he went every day, He finally did.

[Mom-ninja.]

Google "toxic megacolon" and "encopresis."

 

A half-dose of Miralax daily works for one of my kids. The other takes magnesium (400 or 500 mg).

 

Do you give because they have a hard time going or because they refuse to go?

 

 

My ds refuses. If you try to force him he screams. And screams. And screams. Dh and I have tried everything. We've taken him to a child psychiatrist as our Dr. referred us.

 

He goes about every 4th day.

 

His reason? He is afraid of the toilet. He has serious toilet phobia. Phobia as in it is completely irrational.

[ondreeuh]

No, mine weren't doing it on purpose, but were/are constipated. It's not so much an issue of how often you go, but the consistency. "Rocks" are bad even if they are done every day. Smooth logs are good even if they are every 2-3 days.

 

You really need to be careful about constipation making your son's issue worse. If you need to do suppositories or enemas, then do it because holding it in just makes it bigger and more painful. When the colon gets used to being stretched, then your son can lose sensation and then have fecal incontinence.

 

I assume you've been told about a Miralax protocol to get him cleaned out. Some people do enemas to get the backed up stuff passed. Once he is clear you need to maintain stool softeners (Miralax does seem to be the favorite) for months to "train" your son to go regularly. If the stools are soft they should not hurt and your son may get over his fear. But letting it progress will only make things much worse.

 

Have you tried removing milk from his diet? Letting him play a video game while on the pot? If it were my son, I would haul a tv into the bathroom to make the experience as pleasant as possible (and bribe heavily!).

[Mom-ninja.]

We have done everything. Everything. I've bribed. I let him play the DS while on the toilet, and he almost never gets to play the DS. We've tried TV.

 

Doesn't make a difference. He refuses to sit on the toilet. He cries. He screams. He goes into a panic. He begs me to let him use a bucket.

 

His stools are not hard, but when he finally can't hold it any longer there is so much that I have to plunger the toilet every single time. He goes about every 4th day sometimes every 5th day. And when he does go he doesn't sit on the toilet. He stands over it just as little as possible. Sometimes he misses the toilet. The toilet is gross because he'll get poop on the seat and the front and he doesn't clean it properly. You see even cleaning the toilet puts him in fear/panic mode. For awhile he was going to the bathroom outside in the woods behind our house until I found out.

 

I'm afraid he's going to cause damage to his colon. Let alone that his phobia is not getting better. It started when he was 3 and he's now 8. He has not really moved forward at all.

 

I've tried everything people have suggested and nothing has helped.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Kleine Hexe

[~*Beatrix*~]

He needs therapy at this point, to help him get over his fear. It sounds really extreme, and it sounds like you really have tried bribing, etc., with him. It's really posing a kind of health problem at this point.

 

Poor kiddo, poor mama :(

[Amy in NH]

He needs therapy at this point, to help him get over his fear. It sounds really extreme, and it sounds like you really have tried bribing, etc., with him. It's really posing a kind of health problem at this point.

 

Poor kiddo, poor mama :(

 

:iagree:

 

Can you get a child's potty seat to put on the bucket?

 

I'm not sure how you'd dispose of it afterward, though...

[TranquilMind]

He goes about every 4th day.

 

His reason? He is afraid of the toilet. He has serious toilet phobia. Phobia as in it is completely irrational.

 

Did he ever fall in? I did, at about 2.5 years old. I can still remember that fear I felt clearly over 50 years later, and my little legs (I was skinny!) sticking out the top!

 

I did get over it and began to utilize the facilities, however. ;) I'm sure your son will too. Can you stand with him or give him a little prize when he is done to encourage it? I wonder if there are any books for kids on this that he could read?

[TranquilMind]

We have done everything. Everything. I've bribed. I let him play the DS while on the toilet, and he almost never gets to play the DS. We've tried TV.

 

Doesn't make a difference. He refuses to sit on the toilet. He cries. He screams. He goes into a panic. He begs me to let him use a bucket.

 

His stools are not hard, but when he finally can't hold it any longer there is so much that I have to plunger the toilet every single time. He goes about every 4th day sometimes every 5th day. And when he does go he doesn't sit on the toilet. He stands over it just as little as possible. Sometimes he misses the toilet. The toilet is gross because he'll get poop on the seat and the front and he doesn't clean it properly. You see even cleaning the toilet puts him in fear/panic mode. For awhile he was going to the bathroom outside in the woods behind our house until I found out.

 

I'm afraid he's going to cause damage to his colon. Let alone that his phobia is not getting better. It started when he was 3 and he's now 8. He has not really moved forward at all.

 

I've tried everything people have suggested and nothing has helped.

Hmmm. Is there a way that you could let him use a toilet chair like elderly people use with a container underneath, and then empty it into the toilet? I know that's a little gross, but it might help him transition more quickly and he might realize that the toilet won't hurt him, and that he could save a step by just moving to the toilet in the first place.

[kitten18]

He needs therapy at this point, to help him get over his fear. It sounds really extreme, and it sounds like you really have tried bribing, etc., with him. It's really posing a kind of health problem at this point.

 

Poor kiddo, poor mama :(

:iagree:

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[VeganCupcake]

My DD sometimes refuses to go because it starts to hurt to go when you hold it too long. We use Miralax to keep bowel movements soft and regular.

 

There are emergency-preparedness-type toilet seats that fit on 5 gallon buckets. Can you do something like that? Then dump the waste in the toilet, rinse out the bucket, and disinfect it with something? I think that's what I would do in the short term, to try to get him going more frequently.

[Farrar]

My kids have done this while we're traveling - it's not purposefully holding, but they get all anxious and they're out of their comfort zone. We had a scary, scary episode where one ds was completely impacted, ran a fever... Oh, I still shudder thinking about it. People on this board with their good advice, and my sainted father who we were staying with helped me through it.

 

Now, when we travel, 2 fiber gummy squares a day is non-negotiable. More than 2 days with nothing means no bread, no dairy and no sweets at all. This has really helped us when we're on the road. And I always travel with a full of kit of medicines for it, including Miralax.

 

But agreed with others that this clearly needs therapy at this point. The consequences down the line could be serious.

[Mom-ninja.]

Two years ago I took him a child psychiatrist after talking to his doctor. That was infuriating.

 

Long story short:

 

1. Ds lied about being afraid of the toilet. He's ashamed and lies about it. I sat there telling ds to admit he was afraid and he flat out kept lieing. The Dr. said he'd heard enough and had a good idea of what was going on.

 

2. He took us into the bathroom at the office and asked ds to flush. Ds did. Apparently this "proved" that ds does not have a toilet phobia. It was so very obvious to me that ds was faking and trying to play it cool.

 

3. The psych then told me that problems such as this are "common in homeschool families because Mom doesn't want to cut the apron strings." He went on to say that if ds went to school he would be forced to face uncomfortable situations and learn to overcome them without mom's interference.

 

4. He told me that his behavior is my fault for "not having consequences and following through."

 

5. Then he said I should go to behavioral therapy with ds and that I should take the parenting classes. He followed that with, "But if you don't want to wait that long for results I can prescribe meds for him to relax his inhibitions towards listening."

 

Yeah. Ask me how long I ranted to my dh. Oh, man I was (am) ticked.

 

Thing is he was the only child psych covered by our insurance. So, we went back to trying to figure things out on our own. I thought we were making progress until I found out he was using the bathroom in the woods. Now, I found out how long he's been holding off going.

[Soror]

Poor kid and poor mom. :( I agree he needs some counselling/therapy at this point!

[JumpyTheFrog]

If you don't want to try the bucket suggested by others, have you thought about building an outhouse for him? I'm sure Mother Earth News or similar magazines must have plans for a modern no-stink outhouse, since some people compost their waste. I feel kind of silly suggesting this, but since he seems like he is willing to use the woods...and since your bathroom is getting very, um, yucky, maybe it would make your life easier until somebody finds a way to help him get over his fear.

[Laura Corin]

I know an adult who 'goes' once a week. It's what he has always done - no problems.

 

Laura

[fairfarmhand]

If you don't want to try the bucket suggested by others, have you thought about building an outhouse for him? I'm sure Mother Earth News or similar magazines must have plans for a modern no-stink outhouse, since some people compost their waste. I feel kind of silly suggesting this, but since he seems like he is willing to use the woods...and since your bathroom is getting very, um, yucky, maybe it would make your life easier until somebody finds a way to help him get over his fear.

interesting thought. might be a short term solution.

[Farrar]

That's so insulting. Can you check again with your insurance company? It might be worth it to travel farther to someone a few times to get help or since it's two years later, there might be another doctor or someone else in that practice. I think you should tell them the stuff you've posted here. It's clearly not normal behavior and it's downright rude to imply it's the result of helicopter parenting. Good grief.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Two years ago I took him a child psychiatrist after talking to his doctor. That was infuriating.

 

Long story short:

 

1. Ds lied about being afraid of the toilet. He's ashamed and lies about it. I sat there telling ds to admit he was afraid and he flat out kept lieing. The Dr. said he'd heard enough and had a good idea of what was going on.

 

2. He took us into the bathroom at the office and asked ds to flush. Ds did. Apparently this "proved" that ds does not have a toilet phobia. It was so very obvious to me that ds was faking and trying to play it cool.

 

3. The psych then told me that problems such as this are "common in homeschool families because Mom doesn't want to cut the apron strings." He went on to say that if ds went to school he would be forced to face uncomfortable situations and learn to overcome them without mom's interference.

 

4. He told me that his behavior is my fault for "not having consequences and following through."

 

5. Then he said I should go to behavioral therapy with ds and that I should take the parenting classes. He followed that with, "But if you don't want to wait that long for results I can prescribe meds for him to relax his inhibitions towards listening."

 

Yeah. Ask me how long I ranted to my dh. Oh, man I was (am) ticked.

 

Thing is he was the only child psych covered by our insurance. So, we went back to trying to figure things out on our own. I thought we were making progress until I found out he was using the bathroom in the woods. Now, I found out how long he's been holding off going.

 

I am so sorry about your experience. That is terrible and the psychologist needs to reported to the proper licensing agency. Not all psychologists are like that. We have had bad ones and good ones. The good ones have been such a blessing. If the only way you can find a good one it to pay out of pocket, then do so (and you may be able to petition insurance to cover it if you explain how, due to terrible incompetence, they should not be paying for the services of that particular psychologist!!)) The alternative is not pretty. BTDT. I would never wish encopresis on anyone - it was a nightmare for my family. At 19, ds is appears to finally be free of the emotional trauma that enco. caused him.

 

ETA:

A good child psychologist will have an open mind about homeschooling. A good psychologist will listen to the parents and know that they are the best source of information on the child's behavior. A good one will treat the parents as part of the team when it comes to recovery, while respecting the privacy and confidentiality of the patient.

Edited November 6, 2012 by dirty ethel rackham

[Mom-ninja.]

That's so insulting. Can you check again with your insurance company? It might be worth it to travel farther to someone a few times to get help or since it's two years later, there might be another doctor or someone else in that practice. I think you should tell them the stuff you've posted here. It's clearly not normal behavior and it's downright rude to imply it's the result of helicopter parenting. Good grief.

 

Dh started a new job last month and we will have new insurance. Just need to wait until it kicks in come Jan. Although I don't know what the coverage will be for a psychologist/psychiatrist.

 

I'll discuss some of the suggestions with dh and ds until then.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Kleine Hexe

[swellmomma]

What is the normal range of time to go between bowel movements for an 8 yr old boy?

 

What physical problems can manifest by holding it for as long as one possibly can?

 

My ds9 suffers from encoperesis. I am not sure of normal ranges, but the side effects of holding it are not fun. We finally learned that ds's issues were caused by dairy. Before we figured that out, he would often go a full month in between bowel movements. extreme pain, tearing, fever, loss of appetite, bloating, abdomenal distention, nausea, sometimes vomitting, risk of rupturing his bowels, constant smell from oozing, which led to bullying and depression. He would get so uncomfortable he would actually ask for an enema. For a child to ask for one shows how uncomfortable he was.

 

Dairy free he goes 3-4 days in between now, and no oozing or other symptoms. We are switching to gluten free for him shortly to see if we can get him down to 1-2 days between.

 

When he started going, he dropped almost 20 lbs and 3 pants sizes! That's how much he had trapped in his little body

 

ETA: constipation is a vicious cycle. He is scared to go so he gets backed up, which causes more pain and discomfort. That in turn creates more fear of going and over and over you go.

 

WHile right now it appears to be solely due to fear I would treat it as an inability rather than a refusal to go because until they are very soft stools he will not be able to overcome his fear.

Edited November 6, 2012 by swellmomma

[Joules]

I'm not much for meds, but if you could find a decent psychiatrist with a brain and a heart, I might consider it to reduce anxiety. You are dealing with a really tough phobia.

 

I really like the idea of the elderly toliet. Here's the one we had for Mom. It's called three-in-one because it can be used several ways. At first, you can use it away from the toilet and empty the bucket. Then later you can remove the bucket and the seat and frame will slide over your regular toilet. Maybe he could progress to that. It does make you feel less like you are going to fall in, I think.

[Snow]

My ds9 suffers from encoperesis. I am not sure of normal ranges, but the side effects of holding it are not fun. We finally learned that ds's issues were caused by dairy. Before we figured that out, he would often go a full month in between bowel movements. extreme pain, tearing, fever, loss of appetite, bloating, abdomenal distention, nausea, sometimes vomitting, risk of rupturing his bowels, constant smell from oozing, which led to bullying and depression. He would get so uncomfortable he would actually ask for an enema. For a child to ask for one shows how uncomfortable he was.

 

Dairy free he goes 3-4 days in between now, and no oozing or other symptoms. We are switching to gluten free for him shortly to see if we can get him down to 1-2 days between.

 

When he started going, he dropped almost 20 lbs and 3 pants sizes! That's how much he had trapped in his little body

 

ETA: constipation is a vicious cycle. He is scared to go so he gets backed up, which causes more pain and discomfort. That in turn creates more fear of going and over and over you go.

 

WHile right now it appears to be solely due to fear I would treat it as an inability rather than a refusal to go because until they are very soft stools he will not be able to overcome his fear.

 

Thanks for sharing this. Both you and the op are not alone. My son holds it in for 1-2 weeks or so at a time. He doesn't usually get to the point where he asks for help/ medicine but eventually will accept it if I offer him the pedialax chewable tablets. Is a tough problem all the way around. Good to hear that ruling out dairy helps because I don't think it's an entirely psychological problem...like you said it's a cycle. He's prone to anxiety but not overtly afraid of the toilet but the more the stool builds up from diet or whatever, the more the anxiety, the less he goes.

Edited November 6, 2012 by NaturalKate

[Snow]

Just found this site with more info. Hope this is getting too far on the op's questions but wanted to provide just in case. Her daughters problems were gluten-related.

 

http://www.momsguidetoencopresis.com/

[Mom-ninja.]

Just found this site with more info. Hope this is getting too far on the op's questions but wanted to provide just in case. Her daughters problems were gluten-related.

 

http://www.momsguidetoencopresis.com/

 

 

Thanks. We are already a gf family.

[Cera]

I think the idea of a bedside commode is a good one. It would allow him to get used to going on a "toilet" without triggering whatever fear he has (hopefully). It can't be any worse to deal with than what you described and might be a good starting point for him. I would definitely also get him into therapy.

[Tiramisu]

I'd like to give that psychiatrist a little counselling. :glare:

 

One thing about the fiber. Fiber is always recommended for constipation but don't forget the water/liquid you need to go with it. Fiber can actually constipate if there's not enough liquid around.

 

With miralax, liquid is not absorbed by the body, so you also need more liquid in the diet so you don't have to deal with dehydration.

 

Our biggest problem around here is not fiber, it's getting someone to drink enough.

 

There's a massage that OhElizabeth has mention with regard to constipation and opening up the valve between the small intestine and the colon. I think she once said there is a youtube video that shows how to do it.

 

Back to your original question, I've been told that anywhere from three bm's a day to one every three days is normal, but our ped GI recommends aiming for one per day.

 

P.S. You're doing a great job! Poop problems are very frustrating.

[KungFuPanda]

:iagree:

 

Can you get a child's potty seat to put on the bucket?

 

I'm not sure how you'd dispose of it afterward, though...

 

:iagree:

 

First off, which son is this? The 3 year old?

 

Can you just let him use the bucket mentioned above or a potty seat? Maybe a camping toilet? Line them with bags for easier clean-up. Put the thing in his room or the garage if that makes him happy. I'd be afraid to go after 3 days too. It probably IS traumatic and uncomfortable.

 

I'd say find some form of a potty that doesn't scare him, and give him miralax and fresh fruit smoothies everyday. Once he's regular, make HIM clean the potty. That may be incentive enough to go on the regular potty (once its no longer painful.)

[ondreeuh]

Honestly? If it were my kid, I would give him the bucket. There are communities in Alaska without plumbing and everyone relies on "honeybuckets" so it's not even THAT extreme. Get some bags, poo-powder, and a lid, and let him do his thing. My daughter uses "wag bags" when camping in leave-no-trace areas, and those would work too, especially when you are out of the house).

 

I agree with working on getting rid of the toilet phobia, but I would do what I could to make sure he was pooping regularly in the meantime.

[Mom-ninja.]

Thanks everyone. Ds likes the idea of the 3 in 1 toilet posted by Joules. So we ordered it. That will give us time until we can try to find another psych.

[funschooler5]

I haven't read the whole thread, so this may have already been mentioned but I wanted to add that you might want to make sure he's drinking enough water. I went through this with one of my kids, and we added more fiber to his diet, and it made it worse because we didn't up his water intake. Fiber is good, just be sure to add liquids!

[weddell]

I know this isn't really an answer to your questions but here is a really good book about some of the symptoms of constipation in children. They can poop everyday and STILL be constipated. I wouldn't be surprised if constipation issues were part of the original problem (although you are clearly beyond just needing to solve that part of the problem).

 

http://www.amazon.com/Its-Accident-Breakthrough-Solutions-Constipation/dp/076277360X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352360909&sr=8-1&keywords=It%27s+no+accident

[Jpoy85]

I have no idea what a 'normal' range would be because I never pay attention to when my children go. I never could understand why the doctor would ask me that question when they had their physicals. Ask them!

 

I dont understand this either! Especially by time you get to #2, 3, etc as far as children. Who keeps track? Who has time?!

[skeeterbug]

I'm afraid he's going to cause damage to his colon. Let alone that his phobia is not getting better. It started when he was 3 and he's now 8. He has not really moved forward at all.

 

My first thought was, What happened when he was three? A good therapist will hopefully explore that with you.

 

:grouphug: It would make my relationship with my 8yo so hard if this was happening in our house. I hope you find a solution soon.

[Snow]

I dont understand this either! Especially by time you get to #2, 3, etc as far as children. Who keeps track? Who has time?!

 

Did you actually read this thread?

 

Who keeps track and makes time?! People who know their children are hurting with a serious medical problem. So not helpful. :mad:

[swellmomma]

Did you actually read this thread?

 

Who keeps track and makes time?! People who know their children are hurting with a serious medical problem. So not helpful. :mad:

 

exactly! WHen you have a child with chronic medical issues, pain etc you keep track. For a parent of a diabetic they keep track of the blood sugars of their child, and adjust diet and meds as needed. For a parent of a child with chronic constipation or encopresis they keep track of the bowel habits, and adjust diet and meds accordingly.

[Unicorn.]

I was going to suggest a composting toilet.

http://www.cabelas.com/showers-toilets-accessories-sun-mar-composting-toilet.shtml?WT.tsrc=CSE&WT.mc_id=GoogleProductAds&WT.z_mc_id1=50020031&rid=40&mr:trackingCode=62D01BCD-958E-DF11-A0C8-002219318F67&mr:referralID=NA&mr:adType=pla&mr:ad=21046041071&mr:keyword=&mr:match=&mr:filter=22549717391