Health - Nutrition - Have you seen the Swiss Food Pyramid?

[regentrude]

Even bread would be problematic for someone who comes home after a long day of work. There are both sodium free baking powders and baking sodas but in the case of soda I can only find it on the internet so it would be a huge reach for someone who is poorer than I am. I can't imagine yeast bread if I came home after long hours on my feet and had to make it. It wouldn't get made.

 

Actually, yeast bread is not difficult; it just requires a little bit of planning since there is no "instant gratification" because of the rising time. I bake all our family's bread with yeast, and I often do that on weekends and then freeze it, since I, too, work. It is doable in the evening, too, since the actual work time is only ten minutes for assembly and kneading, then 30 minutes rising and 30 minutes baking. It won't be ready for dinner that night, but for breakfast the next morning. If you want a sodium free bread, doing it with yeast is very easy. Some people do the 5 minute artisan bread which requires no kneading; you store the dough in the fridge.( I have not tried this.)

Another even cheaper way to make sodium free bread is to rely on natural fermentation and set up a sourdough starter with flour and water which you let sit for two days until it has fermented and is ready to bake. Rye flour works best. I just need to remember to get it set up on Thursday so it's ready on the weekend; this needs a much longer rise time, and I do indeed not find it feasible to make it during my work week. But it has a very hearty taste and does not require money for yeast, if that should be a factor.

 

 

Sodium is less immediately toxic and there are some folks who eat a high sodium diet and have no problems with it (although the CDC's 6 out of 10 was pretty surprising to me).

And some people actually increase their salt intake on purpose to help with low blood pressure. (I know, I know, low blood pressure is harmless, compared to high bp - but it still is extremely unpleasant.) Edited November 9, 2012 by regentrude

[stripe]

I've got this on my to be read shelf! Have you read the whole book? Is it interesting? Well written?

 

Yes, and, given what you just wrote, I think you'll enjoy reading her complaints about the enriching of products with folic acid, which is unhealthy for some people although helpful for fetal development to avoid spina bifada.

[stripe]

If you want a sodium free bread, doing it with yeast is very easy. Some people do the 5 minute artisan bread which requires no kneading; you store the dough in the fridge.( I have not tried this.)

 

Their method is indeed very easy. However, their recipe as given in the book has a large amount of salt. Too salty for me, anyway. There is a discussion about salt here

http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/2008/02/10/qa-salt

 

I think the complete omission of salt will allow the yeast to overdevelop, so I am not sure if simply leaving it out would work well.

[regentrude]

I think the complete omission of salt will allow the yeast to overdevelop, so I am not sure if simply leaving it out would work well.

 

I will try that out in my bread - so far, I am using very little salt in my yeast bread (1/2 tea spoon for two pounds of flour). I have, however, baked a lot with yeast for sweet goods with recipes containing no salt at all; there has never been a problem with the yeast not working properly. So I am not sure why it should not work without salt.

[stripe]

Are you using a small amount of yeast in a slow-rising bread or the quicker rising variety? I wonder if that makes any difference.

 

I have heard large amounts of sugar can "exhaust" yeast. Aside from the somehwat intriguing characterizations of yeast, I am not sure I've paid any attention to this factor, either.

[Mom22ns]

I've got this on my to be read shelf! Have you read the whole book? Is it interesting? Well written?

 

I really liked it. I had ds read it during health class last year.

[Candid]

I will try that out in my bread - so far, I am using very little salt in my yeast bread (1/2 tea spoon for two pounds of flour). I have, however, baked a lot with yeast for sweet goods with recipes containing no salt at all; there has never been a problem with the yeast not working properly. So I am not sure why it should not work without salt.

 

In the NO Salt baking book I am using I have noticed that he often use orange juice instead of water or if using water he adds in a tablespoon or two of vinegar. I have been experimenting with substituting a tablespoon of vinegar for a tablespoon of water. Thus far in my short amount of time doing this I have learned that white bread flour will need more vinegar than whole wheat or whole wheat mixes, but I'm not very close to an easy formula by any means.

[regentrude]

Are you using a small amount of yeast in a slow-rising bread or the quicker rising variety? I wonder if that makes any difference.

 

 

I use the normal dry bread yeast, not the quick rise. I use the amount recommended on the jar (2 1/4 teaspoon per pound of flour).

I find that it rises still rather fast; I need only 30 minutes for the first rise, then do a short second rise of the formed breads while the oven preheats.

 

Re:salt: come to think of, I don't even have to try it out without salt, because there were several times when I completely forgot to add salt to my dough. There was no difference in shape or texture of the finished bread, so I do not believe the presence of salt is required for the yeast to work fine.

[regentrude]

In the NO Salt baking book I am using I have noticed that he often use orange juice instead of water or if using water he adds in a tablespoon or two of vinegar. I have been experimenting with substituting a tablespoon of vinegar for a tablespoon of water. Thus far in my short amount of time doing this I have learned that white bread flour will need more vinegar than whole wheat or whole wheat mixes, but I'm not very close to an easy formula by any means.

 

What is the purpose of the acid in the process? I'm intrigued... I use just water, and, as I just explained in my response to stripe, I forgot to add salt on several occasions and it did not make any difference for shape/texture.

The vital factor for the texture is, in my experience, the kneading process... ever since I have been kneading better, I get a much nicer, fluffier bread, without any change to the recipe.

(FWIW: I do not use bread flour, just all purpose flour and whole wheat; contrary to some recommendations, I do not find it necessary to add extra gluten to achieve the desired texture- it made no difference when I did, as long as I am kneading well.)

[Joan in GE]

I'm having trouble keeping up with all of you...Just as I'm about finished and ready to submit, there are more posts:)

 

Truth was it was due to not spending enough time thinking and crafting what I was writing! Forgive me.:D

Of course. I appreciate honesty.

 

Further, I'm not really a science person but a lit and history person so sometimes the vocabulary nuances are just not in me: in this case the toxin vs. poison part.

It takes years of exposure and study in a field to really understand them - but personal need can speed up the process I think....:001_smile:

 

Candid - the sodium issue is a good one to raise. All your posting has helped me see, because I'd forgotten about all the sodium that is in foods where you wouldn't expect it. (I'm sorry for your family that it is due to your dh's health that you are having to become an instant expert).

 

I have a salt monitor right on my face - the periorbital area!

 

While there are other things that can cause eye puffiness - I've become much more sensitive to salt at some point in the past several years (around the turn of my half century) and can wake up with my eyes hurting they are so puffy, while my BP is very low and unaffected (so I don't tend to think of it as a health issue per se for me)

 

I've been making an effort to cut out/down on salt. Already we do mostly 'from scratch' cooking for dinner - occasionally using bacon or bouillon and other things that are not so major but still add up. When we travel - forget it - eating at restaurants - every morning I wake with very puffy eyes (I'm suspicious of other additives too, just haven't been able to weed through them)

 

Okay, you are right but in my research I've found 500 mg is probably the amount most people need (younger and more athletic people need more).

Esp after approx age 50....what happens to our bodies I wonder that changes our needs so sharply? Even though I'm exercising more, it doesn't seem to change this much...

 

I'm tacking on down here an article at the CDC's website on sodium intake:

http://www.cdc.gov/features/vitalsigns/sodium/

 

This page gives their guidelines: http://www.cdc.gov/vitalsigns/Sodium/index.html

 

These are good links! I was horrified to see that they are adding sodium to raw chicken! Here I thought I was using sodium free componants...

 

I can tell you on the yogurt front that I have found yogurt as low as 20 mg a cup with some going up over 100.

The plain yogurt I have in my frig right now has 170 mg (7% RDA) in it, but doesn't have sodium or salt on the ingredient list.

 

Interesting to see the difference....

 

Let's cook from scratch... like our grandparents.

The problem is that in our grandparents day, they were not 'stepping on' the food, as dh likes to say, adding sodium to the raw materials.....Ok, this is not completely true; there has been cheating in food for centuries...still they have ways of 'adulterating' food these days that we wouldn't guess without help...

 

Also the more salty foods one eats, the more used to it one becomes. I have found it helpful to slowly reduce, to allow my tastebuds to adjust.

 

Good point....Now an egg can taste salty enough to me without added salt...

 

Some of you might be interested in 'food composition tables'...this page has links for one from 2006 - there may be newer versions...

 

Most people start off thinking a serving is how much you want to eat of something, and get a heck of a shock when they find out what a punnet of strawberries has done to their blood sugar levels.

"I believe in homeschooling because I don't think people should be mass produced." - Someone with a Great Mind

 

The perfect quote as we're talking about mass-produced food...

 

As for serving sizes - it's true that I slipped into the larger serving size thinking even though I should know much better....which leads to Marion...

 

Back to Marion Nestle.... she discovered that ...b) the "serving size" for green beans was quite small, so what a typical adult might expect to eat would actually be more than one "serving" of green beans....her book "What to Eat" here.

 

I really liked it. I had ds read it during health class last year.

Good idea...

 

Thanks for the book proposal....It reminds me of one that I bought by Kessler (but that seems to have disappeared somewhere in this house)...The End of Overeating...I'm going to have to dig it out...

 

Dd just finished "Food, Inc"...she says it's a lot like Fast Food Nation but the visuals are of course more powerful...

 

Have you seen

? a 4 min YouTube vid that would appeal to teen boys...I'd seen it years ago when streaming didn't work well and just refound it...

 

Suppose iron tasted really good - would manufactures be allowed to load food up with it to just under the daily limit and then say, "But my product is under the daily max?" Probably not.

Good point.

 

there are some folks who eat a high sodium diet and have no problems with it (although the CDC's 6 out of 10 was pretty surprising to me).

Yes, this (not from their site just from following the issue over the years) is why I didn't make a big issue about it many posts ago....but for some people, as you are pointing out, it is a huge issue....

 

You have but to look at the melamine in food products coming from China to see what an unregulated food industry is willing to do: http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=why-is-melamine-in-baby-formula-you-2008-09-24

 

Yes, China is quite out of control....You know they have to have thousands and thousands of food inspectors - imagine managing them. They are poor and so ripe for bribery...I think China should be broken up into smaller countries.:) But look how things happen even in the US - with a much better system. My dh thinks there should be an 'International Food Safety Agency':001_smile: But it is impossible to test everything. If the manufacturers don't have good morals to begin with, it is much harder to regulate them effectively....Here's a new case with Nest.. (the food company) that only regentrude can read easily (in German)... Even well established companies can make mistakes...

 

It is impossible to rely completely on the system for protection...

 

One of the things I point out in my first post is how hard I've had to work to cut this stuff out.....The easier you make healthy eating the more likely it is that everyone will do it.

 

You would be interested in the average Swiss food store....the ratio of unprocessed to highly processed foods is much smaller than in the US ....You should see how small the frozen food and ready to eat food sections are....and somehow the raw ingredients taste better....

 

The other part is cost, some items would be immediately out of reach for folks who don't have time to deal with them like cheese.

 

It can be very hard to change food traditions.....

 

Actually, yeast bread is not difficult;

 

Their method is indeed very easy. However, their recipe as given in the book has a large amount of salt. Too salty for me, anyway. There is a discussion about salt here

http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/2008/02/10/qa-salt

 

 

In the NO Salt baking book I am using I have noticed that he often use orange juice instead of water or if using water he adds in a tablespoon or two of vinegar.

 

I'm glad you three are discussing this. Please keep us posted about your solutions...

 

With my eyes the way they are at 50+, it is not going to be long before I have to make my own....

 

Joan

[stripe]

I use the normal dry bread yeast, not the quick rise. I use the amount recommended on the jar (2 1/4 teaspoon per pound of flour).

I find that it rises still rather fast; I need only 30 minutes for the first rise, then do a short second rise of the formed breads while the oven preheats.

Sorry, my terminology was not very specific. I meant a regular direct rise method (which it what it sounds like you use), that you can mix up and bake in under 3 hours or so, versus the 1/2 tsp yeast or whatever for the entire batch, rising for 24 hours or something, slow method.

 

Re:salt: come to think of, I don't even have to try it out without salt, because there were several times when I completely forgot to add salt to my dough. There was no difference in shape or texture of the finished bread, so I do not believe the presence of salt is required for the yeast to work fine.

I have had breads where I forgot and it tasted a bit flat, but I didn't notice that the yeast went crazy or anything, myself. But I've read the business about salt inhibiting yeast many times. Maybe it's time for a science experiment!

 

 

My rising times are maybe double what you experience. About an hour for the first rise and perhaps 40 min for the second.

 

The slow rise breads, esp when coupled with a wetter texture, also allow the baker to forgo a lot of the kneading; the gluten develops on its own. I usually make the more direct rise, or occasionally the sort with a starter that I add in when I bake the next day, but I have started mixing the flour (or most of it) with the liquid and any sugar, and letting it sit for 15-20 min, and then adding the yeast, any fat, and salt in and kneading. Supposedly it comes out better and with less kneading work overall.

 

I think the added acid (vinegar or whatever) is supposed to help the yeast work better. I've seen some bakers who make their own dough enhancers that contain things like lecithin as well as ascorbic acid, and in some cases powdered ginger, whose effectiveness is not uniformly endorsed (and consists of maybe 1/4 tsp per loaf). So some people grind up vitamin C tablets.

 

Also King Arthur Flour advocates using orange juice with whole wheat to counteract the tannic qualities of whole wheat.

 

Incidentally I have a container of Stonyfield strawberry yogurt in my frig, and it has 105 mg or something of sodium, so that is less than what the plain yogurt (not Stonyfield) has. Not sure where it's coming from, though.

[Candid]

Their method is indeed very easy. However, their recipe as given in the book has a large amount of salt. Too salty for me, anyway. There is a discussion about salt here

http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/2008/02/10/qa-salt

 

I'll check this out, . . . eventually.

 

I think the complete omission of salt will allow the yeast to overdevelop, so I am not sure if simply leaving it out would work well.

 

Yes, I have heard this over and over in my years cooking. Salt retards yeast growth. The yeast grows wildly without a retardant of some sort and the strands that make for good bread with air pockets eventually collapse and tangle up making for a less well textured bread (don't quote me on this, I know I've heard it, but have no clue as to where).

 

It makes sense since salt is also used as a preservative that it kills microbes. See my previous remarks on vinegar as a possible alternative.

[Joan in GE]

Incidentally I have a container of Stonyfield strawberry yogurt in my frig, and it has 105 mg or something of sodium, so that is less than what the plain yogurt (not Stonyfield) has. Not sure where it's coming from, though.

 

Maybe it is that strawberries have less sodium and therefore change the proportions?...About the plain yogurts dh said possibly silage could vary but he wasn't sure....

 

Just looked at some actifidus (bifidus) 'yogurt' here - for 125 grams there are .05g = 50 mg...

 

Joan

[Joan in GE]

Salt retards yeast growth.

 

Ah yes, I'd meant to add that salt is a preservative so it would be hard to take out of certain foods...

 

Joan

[regentrude]

Yes, I have heard this over and over in my years cooking. Salt retards yeast growth. The yeast grows wildly without a retardant of some sort and the strands that make for good bread with air pockets eventually collapse and tangle up making for a less well textured bread (don't quote me on this, I know I've heard it, but have no clue as to where). .

 

If that is the case, I guess maybe I keep the yeast in check by limiting the rise time: I shape after 30 minutes (the dough has doubled by then) and then baking after a very short 2nd rise - and the baking then kills the yeast.

Maybe if I left the dough rise for two hours or longer, something would happen... hm. All I know is that it seems to work without salt or acid...

[Candid]

Maybe it is that strawberries have less sodium and therefore change the proportions?...About the plain yogurts dh said possibly silage could vary but he wasn't sure....

 

Just looked at some actifidus (bifidus) 'yogurt' here - for 125 grams there are .05g = 50 mg...

 

Joan

 

I looked up milk itself yesterday. Skim milk has 128 mg while whole has 98 mg.

 

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/7578/2

 

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/69/2

 

I have a total huh? Reaction to that. I guess there is less in the fat part which might make sense the less fat part can carry more sodium in the solution. Which means higher in fat yogurt might be lower than zero fat yogurt.

 

I am also wonder if it depends on the cows or what they eat (like mercury in fish).

[Candid]

The problem is that in our grandparents day, they were not 'stepping on' the food, as dh likes to say, adding sodium to the raw materials.....Ok, this is not completely true; there has been cheating in food for centuries...still they have ways of 'adulterating' food these days that we wouldn't guess without help...

 

From Chaucer's Cook's Tale prologue:

 

For many a pastee hastow laten blood,

 

Which some folks take to mean he put blood in his pastee (probably his own).

[stripe]

These are good links! I was horrified to see that they are adding sodium to raw chicken! Here I thought I was using sodium free componants...

 

The problem is that in our grandparents day, they were not 'stepping on' the food, as dh likes to say, adding sodium to the raw materials.....Ok, this is not completely true; there has been cheating in food for centuries...still they have ways of 'adulterating' food these days that we wouldn't guess without help...

One form of salting meat that has been long practiced is when Jews add salt to draw out the blood (e.g. here). Historically, this was done at home (even a passing reference in All of a Kind Family) but certainly now it's done at the butcher's. This was for regular meat that would be eaten, not as some sort of meat jerky or other preserved product.

 

That being said, I think companies have been adding salt to meat like chicken for a while in order to make it heavier. ;)

"According to USDA, 30 percent of poultry, 15 percent of beef, and 90 percent of pork contain added solutions."

 

The meat industry insists they are adding flavor and preventing dried out meat. So nice of them, right?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2011/07/22/138606851/got-enhanced-meat-usda-rule-may-make-it-easier-to-tell

http://cspinet.org/new/201107211.html

[Joan in GE]

And some people actually increase their salt intake on purpose to help with low blood pressure. (I know, I know, low blood pressure is harmless, compared to high bp - but it still is extremely unpleasant.)

 

A runner friend broke his jaw when he fell over due to fainting from low BP...another friend also faints and could end up with such....'licorice root' has natural compounds that raise BP (so bad to eat if you have high BP) Licorice candy also has a lot of salt...this is well known in the Netherlands where people eat a lot of licorice.....

 

I looked up milk itself yesterday. Skim milk has 128 mg while whole has 98 mg....Which means higher in fat yogurt might be lower than zero fat yogurt.

 

I am also wonder if it depends on the cows or what they eat (like mercury in fish).

 

You might find it a lot easier to compare sodium on these pages....its all in columns...look at page 113 and 111 for different milks...the page in between has other nutrients such as Omega 3, starch, fiber, carbs, etc....(presuming you know to scroll the cursor over the bottom part of the page for the page selection to appear)

 

I'm also guessing that some yogurts have added milk solids which would change the numbers....

 

Which some folks take to mean he put blood in his pastee (probably his own).

 

I don't normally have a queasy stomach and even ate some worms in my bulghur tonight (have to admit that ds1 is working on a project of using insects for food) but I wouldn't want those pastees....

 

That being said, I think companies have been adding salt to meat like chicken for a while in order to make it heavier. ;)

"According to USDA, 30 percent of poultry, 15 percent of beef, and 90 percent of pork contain added solutions."

 

It was always obvious to me with fish and scallops. It should have been obvious with meats but somehow I thought that was just juices before....now I'll be checking meat/poultry. I wonder if they do it here....

 

Joan

[stripe]

I don't normally have a queasy stomach and even ate some worms in my bulghur tonight

Wow! This is an adventurous group!

[Joan in GE]

Wow! This is an adventurous group!

 

When I poured the bulghur into the pot, the worms weren't so visible...they were kind of hidden in little clumps - so I thought there were some.

 

But then when it was finished cooking, they'd come up to the top and were very visible. Dd was not so enamored and refused to eat this 'free protein':001_smile: But I was remembering the Frugal thread...why throw out food?

 

Candid - I was thinking about your post where you said you hadn't been careful about your writing, thinking, "oh she is quite candid" - then I remembered that's your Board name....funny....

 

Joan

Edited November 10, 2012 by Joan in Geneva

[Joan in GE]

Even so this has been massively challenging because so much easy to use food has inordinate amounts of sodium in it. Things that I know aren't originally made with sodium have a bunch....

 

I've been looking at labels every day now and have even more compassion for your situation than before!

 

With just 100g of candy (15 candies) and 100g of bread (a few slices) I'm already at 850 - 1070 mg of salt!!! (depending on the type of bread and candies)........I'd thought hard candies were innocuous.:001_huh:

 

I'm really glad you raised this issue - Thank you!

 

Joan

Edited November 12, 2012 by Joan in Geneva

[stripe]

I bought some vitamin C tablets this morning, and guess what, they have sodium added in, too!

 

Bread is one of those unpleasant salty surprises. Things like pickles or cheese taste salty, but bread doesn't.

[Candid]

I've been looking at labels every day now and have even more compassion for your situation than before!

 

With just 100g of candy (15 candies) and 100g of bread (a few slices) I'm already at 850 - 1070 mg of salt!!! (depending on the type of bread and candies)....way over the 500 mg/day for 50+'s....I'd thought hard candies were innocuous.:001_huh:

 

I'm really glad you raised this issue - Thank you!

 

Joan

 

For some reason, here in the South, it's the canned beans that really bug me. They are such a staple of the diet, it is a shame to have them already sodiumed up so much when they could be close to zero which leave room for folks to season them themselves. Beans are pretty bland, but if you are going to make them part of a dish like chili they don't really need to be anything but themselves. They are easy enough to cook up on your own, but they take a lot of pre-planning due to the amount of time involved.

 

It's amusing me that I feel this way because my mom was not from the south so I don't have a full southern appreciation of all beans (black eyed peas always make me shiver).

[Candid]

I bought some vitamin C tablets this morning, and guess what, they have sodium added in, too!

 

On this sort of front, I'll never forget one of those elementary aged science experiments where we tested various substances for their pH. The antacid tested neutral which was puzzling to me until I looked on the label and sure enough they had added acid. I wondered what was the point?

 

Bread is one of those unpleasant salty surprises. Things like pickles or cheese taste salty, but bread doesn't.

[Joan in GE]

For some reason, here in the South, it's the canned beans that really bug me....It's amusing me that I feel this way because my mom was not from the south so I don't have a full southern appreciation of all beans (black eyed peas always make me shiver).

 

Maybe it's the last straw?

 

Just went looking for a snack - opened the cupboard and it's like the word 'sodium' is on everything...I'm going to try to have a day where my intake is below the 500mg level (ETA - it now seems it should be 1,500mg - still much lower than normal intake) ....I wonder if it is reasonably possible...

 

Joan

Edited November 12, 2012 by Joan in Geneva

[regentrude]

Maybe it's the last straw?

 

Just went looking for a snack - opened the cupboard and it's like the word 'sodium' is on everything...I'm going to try to have a day where my intake is below the 500mg level....I wonder if it is reasonably possible...

 

Joan

 

I just noticed something interesting about the different cereals I have in my kitchen:

Corn Flakes: 160 mg

Crispy Oats: 210 mg

Crunchy Cranberry Almond: 340 mg

Premium Fruit Muesli: 0mg. This one is imported from Germany.

 

I have always thought prepared foods here taste saltier than back home; at least for cereal, this impression seems to be actually correct.

[Candid]

Maybe it's the last straw?

 

Just went looking for a snack - opened the cupboard and it's like the word 'sodium' is on everything...I'm going to try to have a day where my intake is below the 500mg level....I wonder if it is reasonably possible...

 

Joan

 

Yes, and I worked with homeless adults back before children. I think about them and their diet.

 

I think about the grandmother I am friends with who is raising her grandson and trying to save for her own retirement, working a full time exhausting job.

 

You can do it but it requires vigilance, a lot of home cooking, and a database (could be on paper) of where you can get certain items (this way you can do strategic shopping and menu planning). If you are just doing it to see, you can easily do it by skipping breads for a day and cooking from scratch for the day and skipping things like luncheon meat, cheese bacon and sausage.

 

For everyday those things you won't have at all will need some fine tuning. Mail order some products but just use them for the crowning touch and only for my dh. Some things like sausage are pretty easy to make: it is just the right ratio of fat to lean and spices. Salt was added as a preservative so you can just scrap it. My favorite, Italian, is really just fennel and meat so super easy to make. I've made it using casings back when I was younger, but that is a lot more trouble and I doubt I will do it again.

 

But all of this is both exhausting and frustrating which is what prompted my first post. I can't imagine doing it while holding a full time job, but maybe home schooling is a full time job, but if so it has more flexibility.

[Joan in GE]

Yes, and I worked with homeless adults back before children. I think about them and their diet.

 

We also have this in common :001_smile:....

 

I think about the grandmother I am friends with who is raising her grandson and trying to save for her own retirement, working a full time exhausting job.

 

It can be exhausting trying to change one's own life, let alone imagine how others could change theirs...

 

 

You can do it but it requires vigilance, a lot of home cooking, and a database (could be on paper) of where you can get certain items (this way you can do strategic shopping and menu planning). If you are just doing it to see, you can easily do it by skipping breads for a day and cooking from scratch for the day and skipping things like luncheon meat, cheese bacon and sausage.

 

I'm trying this today but want to have it more a part of my life because I see ladies with 'permanent' bags under their eyes - and while it is a little vanity that makes me concerned, those bags also make people look unhappy and sometimes angry - even if they are not....

 

I just found this My Plate - Food and Calorie Counter (it also keeps track of sodium)...

 

But all of this is both exhausting and frustrating which is what prompted my first post. I can't imagine doing it while holding a full time job, but maybe home schooling is a full time job, but if so it has more flexibility.

 

I can see better now....

 

Okay, you are right but in my research I've found 500 mg is probably the amount most people need (younger and more athletic people need more). Six times that does is I believe the average amount consumed by Americans.

 

Candid - now I have a question....I'd gotten the 500 mg in my head - I think from your post...But now that I'm rereading the Dietary Guidelines...it seems to be 1500mg for 51+...so was yours a misprint? or did you have some other document that shows 500mg?

 

It still means that most diets are way too high and mine definitely was, but there is a little more wiggle room than I was thinking yesterday..

 

I just noticed something interesting about the different cereals I have in my kitchen:

Corn Flakes: 160 mg

Crispy Oats: 210 mg

Crunchy Cranberry Almond: 340 mg

Premium Fruit Muesli: 0mg. This one is imported from Germany.

 

I have always thought prepared foods here taste saltier than back home; at least for cereal, this impression seems to be actually correct.

 

I noticed last visit to the US how sweet foods tasted...sugar or its replacement even in the rolls from Subway, for example...

 

With this sodium exploration - I'll probably notice the salty flavor next time...

 

Interesting about the German muesli...

 

It would be interesting to do a salt/sweet comparison among the European countries....I remember eating some Indonesian food in the Netherlands that was sooooo sweet....

 

I've noticed that with two products from France (bought in France - 2 miles away) that there is NO labeling of fat, sodium, calories, etc....I guess it is not mandatory there - that really leaves the consumer in the dark...

 

Ds3 has just started making muesli from scratch for me - soaking it in water overnight in the fridge - the original way with a whole apple (includes seeds)...

 

Bread is one of those unpleasant salty surprises. Things like pickles or cheese taste salty, but bread doesn't.

I certainly agree. Fresh bread is one of the delights of living over here...

 

Joan

Edited November 12, 2012 by Joan in Geneva

[Candid]

I'm trying this today but want to have it more a part of my life because I see ladies with 'permanent' bags under their eyes - and while it is a little vanity that makes me concerned, those bags also make people look unhappy and sometimes angry - even if they are not....

 

I'm not sure sodium intake influences this. Generally I think I am more on the positive side. I'm a little out of kilter on this sodium thing right now and I can get a bit on a crusade when things seem unjust to me; I'm sure I've got some of that going now. In fact, if I am grumpy you might blame that on low sodium intake. :D

 

 

I just found this My Plate - Food and Calorie Counter (it also keeps track of sodium)...

 

As a side note, I notice the livestrong website popping up a lot on my searches as well. I've wondered if they are paying to have their site come up high due to their recent negative association with their founder?

 

 

 

Candid - now I have a question....I'd gotten the 500 mg in my head - I think from your post...But now that I'm rereading the Dietary Guidelines...it seems to be 1500mg for 51+...so was yours a misprint? or did you have some other document that shows 500mg?

 

I had to go back and read my post, but to make sure I was on firm ground, thankfully, yes. The minimum is probably around 500 mg. Here's a USDA document where they say it is actually 180 mg: http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/publications/dietaryguidelines/2010/meeting2/commentattachments/aha-220e.pdf They note that no one can get all their other daily needs at that level. I tend to agree with that, but I think the number they fall back to, 1500 mg, which is the heart diet/ older Americans number, is probably too high as a minimum.

 

What I've been doing is shooting for the 500 mg with the realism that a 1000 mg is more like it. That gives me and my husband some wiggle room. If I am cooking low and he goes out to eat then he can get something to eat without fear of totally maxing out. Or for when I accidentally add something that has more sodium than I expect (the tubed basil when I couldn't find fresh proved to have 160 mg per teaspoon!).

 

It also means that I can use something like soy sauce in a dish because the rest of the day has been low enough to accommodate that usage if I think it will improve flavor with not just sodium but other flavors.

 

 

My inspiration is this guy: http://www.megaheart.com/pdf/meredith-approved-small.pdf

 

Also, and here's a shocking piece of information, there's sodium in drinking water: http://water.epa.gov/scitech/drinkingwater/dws/ccl/sodium.cfm If I am reading the chart right, my local water has about 15 mg per liter.

[Storm Bay]

What I like about the Swiss chart is that it emphasizes fruit and veggies over grains. I agree that we need to choose our own serving sizes and amounts, because we all have different caloric needs. As a tall, moderately active woman, I need more calories than most women in order to maintain my weight, but not as many as I used to! My 17 yo dd needs fewer even when she's more active than I am as she's average height and more of a normal metabolism.

 

I have to be dairy free, so naturally I don't include that, but dairy product consumption is highly controversial in general. Some countries have a high instance of lactose intolerance, so I wonder if those show more naturally lactose free cheese & little to no milk, or no dairy at all.

 

I like seeing the different pyramids, and it's interesting to observe how they differ and how they reflect that country's agricultural interests.

[Joan in GE]

In fact, if I am grumpy you might blame that on low sodium intake. :D

 

I saw on a chocolate bar today that there was no sodium - at least for that brand...:) Seriously, I think you have a lot of responsibility - and no/few options. It's not like you can just abandon the project tomorrow because you're tired of it...And you weren't asking for the job either....It takes time to adjust....

 

As a side note, I notice the livestrong website popping up a lot on my searches as well. I've wondered if they are paying to have their site come up high due to their recent negative association with their founder?

I've been researching health nutrition exercise questions for years and in the last one-two years theirs has tended to come up a lot....I've been surprised by the vast number of topics they deal with. But I usually check with a few other sites - sometimes the advice has seemed to lean on medicinal therapies a bit heavily (not always though)...

 

I had to go back and read my post, but to make sure I was on firm ground, thankfully, yes. The minimum is probably around 500 mg. Here's a USDA document where they say it is actually 180 mg: http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/publications/dietaryguidelines/2010/meeting2/commentattachments/aha-220e.pdf They note that no one can get all their other daily needs at that level. I tend to agree with that, but I think the number they fall back to, 1500 mg, which is the heart diet/ older Americans number, is probably too high as a minimum.

 

What I've been doing is shooting for the 500 mg with the realism that a 1000 mg is more like it.

 

That document and the other one about Gazzaniga/Fowler are helpful...

 

In summary we could say the minimum of 180 is not really feasible because of nutrient needs where sodium is in a product naturally or necessary for health...and with exercise, more salt is needed due to sweating...

 

The 500 mg is what Gazzaniga/Fowler aim for - but it is for people with congestive heart failure or other circulatory problems....right?

 

Then the AHA recommends 1,500 mg max for the general population just because 68% need that level instead of the higher level previously recommended...

 

So your idea of aiming for 1,000 isn't bad for your husband....

 

It might be low for me due to exercise needs....it seems like they need to titrate the level a bit more for the general population...

 

That 77% of sodium intake is from processed foods is very revealing....

 

Salt is once again becoming like 'gold' - not in how much you pay for it but in how much you cherish getting to use it.....We happen to live not far from a castle that charged a 'salt tax' in the days when it was more dear....I guess these salt-related health problems weren't a problem in their day....

 

About beans and sodium - now I'm investigating my cupboard while cooking... I was surprised how high the level is! no wonder you are irritated. What about cooking them in a crock pot? or cooking large batches and freezing? One type had half the RDA in a small portion of beans.....I keep being surprised again and again...

 

I need more calories than most women in order to maintain my weight, but not as many as I used to!

 

That is one way in which these pyramids are lacking - when they tell how many servings one should eat/day...It doesn't seem that there is enough guidance for different ages and body sizes...But maybe the emphasis on proportions is supposed to solve that problem...They used to recommend 8-9 servings of carbs/day across the board - can you imagine?

 

Joan

[regentrude]

They used to recommend 8-9 servings of carbs/day across the board - can you imagine?

 

I am sure that much of this has to do with culture and reflects traditional diet.

I still recall my grandmother reminding us that it is the bread that is supposed to fill us, not the meat and cheese - so , if you're hungry, get another slice of bread or more potatoes.

For centuries, carbs were the staples and pretty much the only thing consistently available to the majority of people - the idea of cutting out carbs and eating heavy on fat and protein instead would have been ludicrous because people could not have afforded such a way of eating. But then, obesity and insulin resistance were not widespread issues either.

Edited November 12, 2012 by regentrude

[Joan in GE]

For centuries, carbs were the staples and pretty much the only thing consistently available to the majority of people - the idea of cutting out carbs and eating heavy on fat and protein instead would have been ludicrous because people could not have afforded such a way of eating. But then, obesity and insulin resistance were not widespread issues either.

 

At first I thought there should be two pyramids - one for those burning a lot of calories and one for those not...

 

But now I see that we need the pyramid with a sliding energy bar:001_smile: (ETA - I see they do this for Swiss athletes - but it seems like it should be done for the greater population as well to reflect energy use).

 

Meaning if you are burning a lot of calories, are young and growing, or just have a high metabolism, then the carb bar should have more servings...

 

And if you are basically sedentary, only getting a little exercise, or have slow metabolism then the carb bar should be much smaller...

 

And if you are doing exercise where you have a lot of muscle development, you would need more protein - so that could expand as well...

 

You reminded me of when one of my ds's was a bike messenger doing average 80 km/day....He would have this mountain of carbs on his plate that would have fed me for two to three days.....I was a little jealous....

 

People used to be much more active before all the modern appliances...In European cities, many times people still are more active. I haven't spent much time in US cities to know if the same holds true...and can't generalize for European countryside...

 

Candid - I did my first day with almost no added sodium - and I think it's going to turn into a way of life.....I'm really glad you brought up the sodium issue - it is much more of a problem than I realized....

 

Joan

Edited November 13, 2012 by Joan in Geneva

[stripe]

I just saw a package of dates in my cupboard with the "sodium free" label prominently dislayed.

 

I cannot get on the anti-carb bandwagon, especially given how most of the world eats. The idea that eating large quantities of dairy and meat is advisable for either health or sustainability reasons strikes me as .... unwise and certainly unattainable. One out of every five people has no access to a toilet, even a public or shared toilet. No toilet. They must simply urinate and defecate outdoors.

[Storm Bay]

I am sure that much of this has to do with culture and reflects traditional diet.

I still recall my grandmother reminding us that it is the bread that is supposed to fill us, not the meat and cheese - so , if you're hungry, get another slice of bread or more potatoes.

For centuries, carbs were the staples and pretty much the only thing consistently available to the majority of people - the idea of cutting out carbs and eating heavy on fat and protein instead would have been ludicrous because people could not have afforded such a way of eating. But then, obesity and insulin resistance were not widespread issues either.

 

Right. It's not healthy carbs alone that cause obesity and insulin resistance. Obesity greatly increases the risk of developing diabetes. Farmers doing manual labour all day long could eat great quantities and stay at a healthy weight (I'm thinking of Farmer Boy by Laura Ingalls Wilder, but also of what I saw visiting my dad's cousin who was a farmer back in the 1970s and all they ate.) My sister was shocked at how the New Zealanders ate where she lived (about 10 years ago), and yet they had far less obesity than the US and less than Canada now has due to their active lifestyles. Not that eating those kinds of foods was good for them, just that the impact was less.

[Rosie_0801]

Ok, this might be a stupid question, but what do no carb people fuel their brain with? As far as I know, brains run on glucose and glucose does not come from protein or fat. Last time I tried to ask this on the general board I got snapped at.

 

Rosie

[regentrude]

Ok, this might be a stupid question, but what do no carb people fuel their brain with? As far as I know, brains run on glucose and glucose does not come from protein or fat.

 

The body can convert protein and fat into glucose. (The liver plays an important role in this)

That's how storing fat works anyway: excess glucose is stored in form of fat, to be converted later into glucose when needed.

Edited November 13, 2012 by regentrude

[Rosie_0801]

The body can convert protein and fat into glucose. (The liver plays an important role in this)

That's how storing fat works anyway: excess glucose is stored in form of fat, to be converted later into glucose when needed.

Ah yeah. I used to know most of that. :rolleyes: I didn't know about protein though. Livers can keep doing that for decades without burning out? It sounds like extra work for the body and I'm not understanding why it is worth taking that detour.

 

Rosie

[regentrude]

Livers can keep doing that for decades without burning out? It sounds like extra work for the body and I'm not understanding why it is worth taking that detour.

 

 

I do not know a lot of biochemistry. From what I understand, the extra work for the body may be exactly the point of the weight loss behind a high fat/high protein diet. If you eat carbs, it is easiest for the body to get the glucose from carbs, so that's the default mechanism that happens first. But it is my understanding that people adopting these ways of eating are not interested in the most effective way of their bodies functioning, but in weight loss .

 

I do not know what the long term effects of a carb free diet are and whether these are well studied, seeing that these new diets are rather recent. It would be interesting to see what the negative effects of ten years of eating like this are.

[Rosie_0801]

I do not know what the long term effects of a carb free diet are and whether these are well studied, seeing that these new diets are rather recent. It would be interesting to see what the negative effects of ten years of eating like this are.

 

My mother used to know a woman who didn't eat at all. She drank supplements and appetite suppressants. Apparently she looked great, but 30 years later I have to wonder about the long term effects of her experiment...

 

I don't have a good science background, so it is only in the last year I've been able to understand any of the biochemistry I've read in the books for laymen I can get at the library.

 

Rosie

Edited November 14, 2012 by Rosie_0801

[Joan in GE]

I cannot get on the anti-carb bandwagon, especially given how most of the world eats.

 

I'm not anti-carb.:)

 

My point is just that if carbs are for energy, and I need 800 carb cals for the energy I'm expending today, then I should eat 800 carb cals...And if I'm hiking up the Mont Blanc and need 2000 carb cals, then I should eat them. But the gov should not be telling me to eat 8-9 servings of carbs when they have no idea how much energy I am expending....

(that's clearly oversimplified but I hope you can get my meaning)

 

And about 'most of the world' - I think that most of them are expending a lot more energy in daily life and need the carbs...

 

But it was you who brought up the African Heritage diet - which actually is not that high in carbs (from the picture anyway) and so is probably for a Western sedentary type of lifestyle...I've been trying to cook that way actually for the past couple of days and find that the whole focus of the meal is different....(and it helps with the low sodium goal as well)

 

HTMS (hope this makes sense),

Joan

[Storm Bay]

Ok, this might be a stupid question, but what do no carb people fuel their brain with? As far as I know, brains run on glucose and glucose does not come from protein or fat. Last time I tried to ask this on the general board I got snapped at.

 

Rosie

 

The body can convert protein and fat into glucose. (The liver plays an important role in this)

That's how storing fat works anyway: excess glucose is stored in form of fat, to be converted later into glucose when needed.

 

Correct on both points. However, this is an inefficient way to live on a day to day basis, and I think we need to see what the long term effects are. My opinion, which takes this out of the realm of science but is based on my years of observation, is that there isn't one diet out there that is going to be healthy for everybody. My bias is that we have allergies & food sensitivies in our house, and I do know people who have to be on low protein diets (how would they live without carbs? On fat and almost no protein???), etc. Personally, I think it's easy to be "blown about by every wind of diet" and that most people do best with a mix of carbs, fat & protein. However, there are people with medical issues that make that difficult.

[Joan in GE]

Candid - I've been doing 'LoSo' since posting that I was starting with the exception of yesterday when we had a dinner party....Besides my eyes not being puffy in the AM (yay) except this AM, I've also found that I have less desire for sweets (another yay). So I googled that and see that it is not uncommon to want to eat sweet after salty...It will be interesting to see how this continues....All in all I think I'm eating in a more healthy manner... Joan

[Candid]

I've also found that I have less desire for sweets (another yay). So I googled that and see that it is not uncommon to want to eat sweet after salty..

 

Hmmm, that's an interesting positive side effect. I'm not sure I'm having it. Although maybe it is the fats I am craving (yes, I'm reading The End of Over Eating).

[stripe]

Hey, I thought of you ladies when I saw this...

 

Frugality rules at German dinner parties

 

When I first came to live in Berlin, I was invited to a dinner party, a media dinner party. A German director and his wife invited me over and I looked forward to it with great anticipation.

Usually dinner parties are not my cup of tea, as it were, but this would be a chance to see how Germans did these things. A correspondent from The Economist had also been invited.

And it was good, very enjoyable - though not nearly as grand a meal as I had anticipated.

The table was laid in the couple's flat. We chatted a little, anticipation mounting.

And then his wife proudly produced the food - boiled potatoes, boiled green vegetables and ham, boiled ham.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20355476

[Joan in GE]

Funny - stripe...

 

Candid - let me know what you think of the book...

[Joan in GE]

I just saw a package of dates in my cupboard with the "sodium free" label prominently dislayed.

 

I just bought some to make almond milk with dates....but thinking of your post made me wonder if sometimes they 'add' sodium to dates???? or is the label just a gimmick?

[stripe]

I just bought some to make almond milk with dates....but thinking of your post made me wonder if sometimes they 'add' sodium to dates???? or is the label just a gimmick?

 

I think it was a bit of a gimmick - it also noted that they were fat free. ;)

[Candid]

I think it was a bit of a gimmick - it also noted that they were fat free. ;)

I think it was a bit of a gimmick - it also noted that they were fat free. ;)

 

:iagree: