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Joan in GE

Health - Nutrition - Have you seen the Swiss Food Pyramid?

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Working on nutrition right now, I was surprised to see so many of the old 'food pyramid' images which have carbos as the base...

 

I thought that people might be interested in the Swiss one - it is from 2007 - but may not have circulated in the US yet....

 

It reflects research about the need for liquids and fruits and vegetables more than the ones with carbos on the bottom...

 

ETA - this one comes up quicker (at least on my old laptop) and has requirements if you are an athlete Basic and Sports Swiss pyramid

 

Swiss food pyramid

 

Here's an article about it in English

 

Personally I think it makes a huge difference in perception of what we should be eating...

 

Here's the new US food pyramid ETD -part about milk

 

Due to my husband's work, we have had the idea of needing 5 - 9 servings of fruits and vegetables drilled into us for years - but that is quite hard to eat - esp if you are eating all those carbos. (Ok I realize that some fr/veg have lots of carbos too)...But it seems to be a daily concern to get enough fruits and veggies. With the Swiss pyramid - it can help perceptions of importance...

 

FWIW,

Joan

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The new US food pyramid seems to put way too much emphasis on milk when there are other ways of getting calcium and protein.

 

 

 

:confused:

The Swiss pyramid recommends 3 servings of dairy, with 200ml milk or 200g of yoghurt counting as one serving. So, lets say I consume that in milk, 600ml. Plus the one protein serving that can be dairy (or alternatively meat), makes 800ml. Yoghurt is a bit denser, so make it 700ml.

 

The US pyramid has 3 cups of dairy, 708ml.

 

Where is the difference?

 

What bugs me more is that the US pyramid recommends skim or low fat dairy. I bet the Swiss eat actual real cheese with all the fat, much more satisfying.

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:confused:Where is the difference?

 

regentrude - you are right from the specifics on the bottom...I was going more on the picture itself as that is what people tend to remember.

 

But I see that I overvalued the Swiss one because in the details, they do say dairy and don't go into alternative forms either....I guess it's all those Swiss cows out there.:) Have to support the dairy industry.

 

So I modify my statement because the Swiss one also distorts the need for 'milk' from cows...(as opposed to human milk - not recommending that for adults, or almond milk, etc)

 

Joan

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But I see that I overvalued the Swiss one because in the details, they do say dairy and don't go into alternative forms either....I guess it's all those Swiss cows out there.:) Have to support the dairy industry.

 

So I modify my statement because the Swiss one also distorts the need for 'milk' from cows...(as opposed to human milk - not recommending that for adults, or almond milk, etc)

 

Joan

 

But how can the Swiss NOT promote dairy? Their cheese is outstanding and local - whereas they grow very little soy and almonds. For centuries, dairy has been a main source of protein in Switzerland; I am not sure why they should encourage the consumption of imported alternatives that are not part of their traditional diet.

 

And they DO mention tofu (and quorn and seitan) as a protein alternative.

 

It raises a rather philosophical question: why change what worked well for centuries - until recently, when people started becoming more sedentary? Why not eat and be active like our great-grandparents? I highly doubt the Swiss mountain farmer who raises his cows on the Alm has any obesity problems.

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But how can the Swiss NOT promote dairy? Their cheese is outstanding and local - whereas they grow very little soy and almonds. For centuries, dairy has been a main source of protein in Switzerland; I am not sure why they should encourage the consumption of imported alternatives that are not part of their traditional diet.

 

regentrude - it's a good point about not growing almonds and doing locavore eating, but I'm sure you have seen some of the research about the problems of milk digestion and there are whole groups of people against milk (from cows) consumption...probably that's been a topic on the General Board - just guessing there since I don't have time to read it usually but it seems like everything under the sun is discussed there....

 

Personally my health is better when I decrease my milk consumption...I can get headaches from some types of milk (depending on the processing or storage - haven't figured it out yet), aged cheeses, and tend to break out when I drink too much of it...

 

And then the whole milk/calcium-magnesium/bones issue still doesn't seem to be completely sorted out....

 

Then we could get into all the issues of land use/cow vs other forms of protein, etc....antibiotics and hormones in milk, etc, etc....and yet another area - heavy metals in milk fat....though Switzerland is better than France on that issue...

 

All that to say that I have my skepticism about the milk industry...

 

It raises a rather philosophical question: why change what worked well for centuries - until recently, when people started becoming more sedentary? Why not eat and be active like our great-grandparents? I highly doubt the Swiss mountain farmer who raises his cows on the Alm has any obesity problems.

 

Now this is a good point about exercise - they have an exercise pyramid too. :-)

 

Just looked for that but couldn't find it. Instead I found the German food pyramid.

 

Joan

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I like the picture of the cup of coffee on the bottom level, but sad they did not see fit to put chocolate a little "lower" ;). But in seriousness, I do appreciate that they put liquids on the bottom. I do think they may be off with the grains at the "lower" level than the fruit and veggies.

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Due to my husband's work, we have had the idea of needing 5 - 9 servings of fruits and vegetables drilled into us for years - but that is quite hard to eat - esp if you are eating all those carbos. (Ok I realize that some fr/veg have lots of carbos too)...But it seems to be a daily concern to get enough fruits and veggies.

 

Isn't a "serving" of fruits/vegetables something like half a cup?

 

Now, we're vegans (for ethical reasons), meaning fruits, vegetables and grains aren't competing with meat or dairy to find space in our diets. But even my veggie-averse kids rarely have trouble meeting the daily minimum of five servings. My son comes close to finishing his with his breakfast smoothie.

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Isn't a "serving" of fruits/vegetables something like half a cup?

 

Yes and no - it depends on the F or V....one apple, one orange, 1 cup of lettuce or spinach...I don't know what it is for all of them...In general 1/2 c. I have tried keeping track and maybe I was underestimating how much I would eat because I was not taking the measuring cup out - but I almost never made 9 servings (for adults)....

 

So what do you put in your breakfast smoothie?

 

Joan

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So what do you put in your breakfast smoothie?

 

1/2 banana, frozen

1/2 banana, fresh (The combo of fresh and frozen makes for a nice consistency.)

1 cup frozen, unsweetened strawberries

1 cup orange juice

1/2 scoop strawberry-flavored Spirutein powder

1/2 scoop Soy-free Veg powder

 

According to www.cookinglight.com, one banana is a serving, the cup of strawberries is two servings. That site didn't list juice, but a few other sites I found while Googling show a "serving" as a half cup of juice. So, using those estimates, the smoothie alone is five servings of fruit.

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1/2 banana, frozen

1/2 banana, fresh (The combo of fresh and frozen makes for a nice consistency.)

1 cup frozen, unsweetened strawberries

1 cup orange juice

1/2 scoop strawberry-flavored Spirutein powder

1/2 scoop Soy-free Veg powder

 

According to www.cookinglight.com, one banana is a serving, the cup of strawberries is two servings. That site didn't list juice, but a few other sites I found while Googling show a "serving" as a half cup of juice. So, using those estimates, the smoothie alone is five servings of fruit.

 

I was just curious about what you put in it in general....someone told me they put in Kale but I forgot to get the recipe... What is 'veg powder' - wouldn't that get any veggie credit vitamin wise?

 

Now this is a good point about exercise - they have an exercise pyramid too. :-)

 

Just looked for that but couldn't find it. Instead I found the German food pyramid.

 

I found the exercise pyramid regentrude...I too think we should get more exercise and whenever I don't have to take the kids somewhere or buy large quantities of food, I try to bike or walk. (I realize that is pretty unrealistic in the US with the vast distances unless you live in the city and is one reason why I don't want to move back)

 

Joan

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I was just curious about what you put in it in general....someone told me they put in Kale but I forgot to get the recipe... What is 'veg powder' - wouldn't that get any veggie credit vitamin wise?

 

 

"Soy-Free Veg" is a brand name. It's a protein/supplement powder made primarily with (as I recall) pea and brown rice proteins. It also has the equivalent of a multi-vitamin in each scoop.

 

I use half and half of that and the Spirutein, because I'm trying to cut back on the soy in my son's diet. He much prefers the flavor of the Spirutein brand, though. So, this is the current compromise.

 

I don't think either of them "counts" as a veggie, since they're pretty far from their original condition. I mean, corn meal started life as corn, but by the time you make it into cornbread, it's a grain.

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Working on nutrition right now, I was surprised to see so many of the old 'food pyramid' images which have carbos as the base...

 

I thought that people might be interested in the Swiss one - it is from 2007 - but may not have circulated in the US yet....

 

It reflects research about the need for liquids and fruits and vegetables more than the ones with carbos on the bottom...

 

ETA - this one comes up quicker (at least on my old laptop) and has requirements if you are an athlete Basic and Sports Swiss pyramid

 

Swiss food pyramid

 

 

 

 

FWIW,

Joan

 

Darn it.... I thought this would be all about various types of chocolate....

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sad they did not see fit to put chocolate a little "lower" ;).

 

I thought this would be all about various types of chocolate....

 

Yes, I guess it is disappointing with the current news about the benefits of dark chocolate....you can be like the Swiss and put a bar of chocolate on fresh bread for the 4pm snack.:001_smile:

 

"Soy-Free Veg" is a brand name.

Oh - I was mislead by the 'veg' part....thinking it would be something like 'barley green' which looks like powdered grass....

 

corn meal started life as corn, but by the time you make it into cornbread, it's a grain.
I actually think of corn as a grain - way too many carbs in it....and potatoes...

 

this is the Belgian Piramide

 

loesje - I like that they put exercise on the bottom and liquids in there... Thanks for sharing...

 

I see they put Ca enriched products with the milk....

 

Could you find it for me in French if not too much trouble? The family will find it easier to read. (putting the Flemish into Google translate is tricky getting all mixed up with all those consonants)

 

You might like the "Healthy Eating Plate" from Harvard...It's really pretty good.

 

I like that they show half of the plate for fruits and veggies....I just realized that they say to 'limit' milk to 1-2 glasses a day - interesting...

 

My ds3 has taken these messages to heart and is just so healthy...dd and I have much more trouble...so these are messages to myself...:)

 

Joan

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I guess it's all those Swiss cows out there.:) Have to support the dairy industry.

Eh, that's better than the sugar industry, which won't let the FDA discourage sugar consumption (and for that matter, there was an interesting article in the NY Times recently about how estimates are made of American sugar consumption, but a lot of it is unclear).

 

I also like that fats are separate from greasy, unhealthy fatty/sugary/alcoholic snacks. I find it really annoying that the whole American dietary advice is about avoiding fat whatever you do, no matter who you are, as the assumption is that we are all quite obese and need to lose weight. I have one extremely slim child and a very slim husband, and, honestly, it irritates me that everything -- from dietary posters to the nurses and doctors -- only ask about weight reduction, calorie reduction, and limiting fats, such as choosing skim milk. The assumption is that everyone eats sausages, eggs, and biscuits for breakfast, and the only advice the doctor will give is to drink skim milk with it.

 

The doctor's office is also a bit snippy about limiting juice, which I do anyway.

 

I also like that not only exercise, but relaxation is prescribed.

 

And I adore the Belgian triangles!

 

Here is an article that has links to many models, including China (perhaps my favorite), Japan, Spain, and compares the advice given among European countries or how they prepared their model

http://intraspec.ca/food-pyramids.php

 

Here is the Turkish model

http://www.beslenme.saglik.gov.tr/index.php?lang=tr&page=188

The Swedish model, which keeps it simple with only three divisions (vegetables, starch, meat) in this model

http://www.slv.se/sv/grupp1/Mat-och-naring/Matcirkeln-och-tallriksmoddellen/Tallriksmodellen/

and a bit more complex in this one

http://www.slv.se/sv/grupp1/Mat-och-naring/Matcirkeln-och-tallriksmoddellen/Matcirkeln/

And India

http://www.ninindia.org/DietaryguidelinesforIndians-Finaldraft.pdf

 

These found thanks to Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nutrition_guides

 

Here's one for traditional African foods

http://oldwayspt.org/programs/african-heritage-health/diet-pyramid

that emphasizes greens (its own category) and is altogether a different approach, although in a pyramid shape - I think it may be one of my favorites

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I started this thread pretty satisfied with the Swiss one but now find I'm going to have to invent my own - some combination of the best of all of these. :-)

 

Here's one for traditional African foods

http://oldwayspt.org/programs/african-heritage-health/diet-pyramid

that emphasizes greens (its own category) and is altogether a different approach, although in a pyramid shape - I think it may be one of my favorites

 

It is one of my favorites now too! And so pretty!

 

 

Here is an article that has links to many models, including China (perhaps my favorite), Japan, Spain, and compares the advice given among European countries or how they prepared their model

http://intraspec.ca/food-pyramids.php

That is a great link! I see I'm behind the times for the US, they'd already replaced the one I thought was the new one with the Harvard plate..

 

The Japanese one is very creative!

 

I think they might have partly been trying to solve the cultural problem of perception of the best thing being at the top of the pyramid - and didn't want to put unhealthy fats and sweets up there...

 

 

Eh, that's better than the sugar industry, which won't let the FDA discourage sugar consumption

 

There was a similar issue at WHO.....

 

This is the huge problem of industry affecting health advice. This thread is really making me think about nutrition advice even more than I had.

 

Maybe the African one is what it should be...

 

This will be very educational for the nutritional part of our health class - showing how advice can be affected by financial interests....

 

Yes, even soy can have financial interests....there are serious questions about hormonal effects....

 

Your comment about fats has been making me think as well....

 

I find it really annoying that the whole American dietary advice is about avoiding fat whatever you do, no matter who you are,

 

For years people were told to limit fats....think about it - this added a whole layer of processing - taking the natural fat out of food - and gave even more work to the food processing industry. Instead we can limit calories, which is a main part of the problem....All and all it ends up meaning we eat foods that are more and more processed....

 

My poor mother - when she was very malnourished due to illness, had SUCH trouble finding yogurt with fat in it to help boost her caloric intake....They wanted her to drink all those special fortified drinks - which end up causing other digestive problems and cost a bundle....

 

 

Can you enlarge the one at this site?

http://www.mlsante.be/alimentation/info/healthy-food/pyramid/-/ml/22501/Gi4f/28277/de-actieve-voedingsdriehoek

 

Calcium enriched soya is pretty common here, as we have a factory in Flanders, producing it. I don't think we have not-enriched Soya, maybe in special natural-food-shops. The enriched soyaproducts are regular supermarkt items here, besides Calcium they add also Vitamine B.

 

Recently our piramide is discussed, and one suggested a food 'sandglass' the upper-piramide contains food you have to 'avoid' and the lower contains food you have to replace. If interested I can translate that one in English but as it hasn't that much pictures it takes more time ;)

Here you have a video with subtitles in French about it:

http://www.rtbf.be/video/detail_koppen-sous-titre-francais?id=1771357

The item about the book starts at 6:41

 

I found another one online - thanks to yours....many seem to have slightly different names so you have to search with the name given in that country...

 

We're going to watch this for a portion of the class.

 

I'm now going to call this 'chapter' - "The Politics of Nutrition"....

 

Some countries are better than others about not letting politics influence health advice. In general my perception is that the EU is better than the US about that...though I know some countries here are worse than others....Eg I was told that Germans will not import some veggies from France due to a difference in standards about pesticides I believe....We bought these leeks in France one time that literally tasted like chemicals....but they 'looked' gorgeous - enormous and green..

 

Joan

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Maybe the African one is what it should be...

I tend to think it was made by someone independently, rather than as a government or industry effort. I think that puts a different spin on it. Their stated purpose is "Oldways guides people to good health through heritage, using practical and positive programs grounded in science tradition and real foods. Let the old ways be your guide to good health."

 

But it's the only one I saw where the larger context (of the week) was given, e.g. fish several times per week, rather than only the day.

 

And you've got to love a pyramid with pie at the top! ;)

 

I have seen the WHO guide on complimentary nutrition for partially breastfed babies, and it's an interesting read, too. I don't have the link off the top of my head, but I do enjoy seeing how different cultures approach food.

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I tend to think it was made by someone independently, rather than as a government or industry effort. I think that puts a different spin on it. Their stated purpose is "Oldways guides people to good health through heritage, using practical and positive programs grounded in science tradition and real foods. Let the old ways be your guide to good health."

 

But it's the only one I saw where the larger context (of the week) was given, e.g. fish several times per week, rather than only the day.

 

And you've got to love a pyramid with pie at the top! ;)

 

I have seen the WHO guide on complimentary nutrition for partially breastfed babies, and it's an interesting read, too. I don't have the link off the top of my head, but I do enjoy seeing how different cultures approach food.

 

I think you're right about the independent effort probably being more reliable....and the week idea is helpful...

 

The last I heard, WHO had very strong position about breastfeeding - don't know about the complimentary foods paper....

 

For the moment we are watching Food Inc and I planned to read a translation of 'In defense of Food' of Michael Pollan.

Other documentaries I 'planned' are:

Tapped,

Vanishing of the Bees,

Supersize Me

Our Daily Bread

 

But I think they are all well-known...

 

This is a great idea for the Politics of Nutrition....We're not making a whole course of nutrition either - one of many topics. Dd had read Fast Food Nation for Human Geo....but these are good to tie into 'nutrition' per se. And I just found some of them listed at the local library.:001_smile:

 

This reminds me of the 'food labeling' issue.

 

I found it so confusing when we went home in the summer....Yes, things are labeled by serving size in the US, but it seems to make it more complicated to compare as the serving sizes seem to be able to change. Sometimes it's with milk, sometimes in tiny servings...

 

Here in CH at least, it is normally 100 gms - it makes it so easy to compare calories and nutrients...

 

Thanks!

Joan

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I found it so confusing when we went home in the summer....Yes, things are labeled by serving size in the US, but it seems to make it more complicated to compare as the serving sizes seem to be able to change. Sometimes it's with milk, sometimes in tiny servings...

Here in CH at least, it is normally 100 gms - it makes it so easy to compare calories and nutrients...

 

That is something that irritates me as well... who is to decide what is a "serving size"? I'd much prefer a standard 100 g - I can calculate myself how much is in my serving if I should be so inclined; it would be easier to compare between foods. But I guess they have decided that the average person can not be expected to figure this out and needs officially dictated serving sizes...

 

We once bought a package containing 9 slim jims. The package told us that it contains 8 serving sizes and told us the nutritional info for 1 1/8 slim jim. This is idiotic.

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That is something that irritates me as well... who is to decide what is a "serving size"? I'd much prefer a standard 100 g - I can calculate myself how much is in my serving if I should be so inclined; it would be easier to compare between foods. But I guess they have decided that the average person can not be expected to figure this out and needs officially dictated serving sizes...

 

We once bought a package containing 9 slim jims. The package told us that it contains 8 serving sizes and told us the nutritional info for 1 1/8 slim jim. This is idiotic.

 

I agree we should be deciding our own serving sizes.

 

And I realized in the veggie discussion with Jenny in FL that I tend to take bigger servings of veggies and am actually eating more than I realize. But 1/2 c veggies seems so small for some types - clearly oversimplified for veggies that are mostly water and hardly any nutrients.....

 

I am a bit more suspicious than you, regentrude....With dh's work we've seen inside workings too closely - not the details of labeling but other 'decisions'....But this has reminded me that we did have a contact with a person who was making labeling decisions - at the time I'd just presumed that he would make the best decisions...I'm going to have to track him down....(ETA that my dh says he's retired but that it would be hopeless as FDA is in the hands of industry and will stay that way with the current House and Senate)...

 

The system has become so complicated that even people with university degrees throw up their hands because it would be so time-consuming to compare everything. Imagine the people who have even less perseverance - it could make them feel stupid. After all, the gov is supposed to be helping them make wise choices with labeling yet it is having the opposite effect.

 

The Slim Jim story is a perfect example of an idea that sounded good in some form not being thought through.

 

But you know, regentrude, it might partly be because people in Europe tend to cook by weighing instead of with measuring cups....

 

So then people in the US don't have a habit of knowing what 100 g is....(Personally I hate cooking with weighing and don't use European cookbooks if I can help it.) But we have a digital scales and I do weigh servings of nuts etc....and have become used to the 100 g idea...

 

That reminds me of the Chinese pyramid, Stripe. What is 300 g of milk? 100 g of cheese - ok - but milk? Do they sell milk by weight there (I can't remember noticing)? And a fair number of Chinese are lactose intolerant...I was wondering why they didn't put Calcium alternatives in that section....

 

Thanks for the discussions everyone - this is very interesting...

 

Joan

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I am a bit more suspicious than you, regentrued....With dh's work we've seen inside workings too closely - not the details of labeling but other 'decisions'.......

 

The system has become so complicated that even people with university degrees throw up their hands because it would be so time-consuming to compare everything. Imagine the people who have even less perseverance - it could make them feel stupid. After all, the gov is supposed to be helping them make wise choices with labeling yet it is having the opposite effect.

LOL, I am actually not even suspicious, because I tend to not pay any attention to these government recommendations. I find the whole notion useless.

 

And the bolded is something I do not agree with. Are there really people who are so clueless that they wait for the government to tell them what they should eat? I find the thought disturbing. I have not met anybody who does not basically know how they *should* eat healthy; many people just choose not to.

 

ETA: I also think the whole nutrition information is highly overrated, because there are so many different ways to eat healthy and balanced. If only a precise adherence to one pyramid was healthy, humankind would never have survived because we never before had the abundance of food to tailor our nutrition precisely. I tend to ignore the recent findings and keep eating the way my grandmothers did... whatever they did let them survive healthy into their nineties... good enough for me (plus, they lived through stretches of less than optimal nutrition, as did all Germans who had to live through the aftermath of two World Wars and the resulting famine periods. I have not seen any data that showed this to have had a significant health impact in the long term -German senior citizens are not less healthy than American seniors.)

 

 

But you know, regentrude, it might partly be because people in Europe tend to cook by weighing instead of with measuring cups....

So then people in the US don't have a habit of knowing what 100 g is....

I would not see any difference if they gave the standard as a volume, say 4 oz. The problem is not weighing vs measuring cup, it is the strange notion that somebody should decide what appropriate "serving sizes" are - doesn't that totally depend on the context of your meal, what dishes are served together, what else you eat that day?

How is it useful, for example, that somebody tells me one serving of pasta is 3/4 of a cup, with 8 such servings in one box? If it is a side dish with meat, that may suffice - but if it is our main dish and we went hiking, we each will have four of these servings as our meal, and my teenage son will easily eat all 8 servings because he is growing. It is completely useless to label "serving".

 

That reminds me of the Chinese pyramid, Stripe. What is 300 g of milk? 100 g of cheese - ok - but milk? Do they sell milk by weight there (I can't remember noticing)?

I would assume most people know that milk has pretty much the same density as water, so grams and milliliters are the same. So 300 g of milk is 300 ml (one cup is about 240 ml.)

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This conversation is facinating to me. Thanks for all the great links. I think I'll go get s snack ... an apple.

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The last I heard, WHO had very strong position about breastfeeding - don't know about the complimentary foods paper....

 

The paper itself is not about breast milk, but about foods for children aged 6-24 mo who were breastfeeding AND eating table foods (so-called complementary feeding). So it has information about how to meet the child's total nutritional needs, ensuring sufficient iron, protein, and vitamin A in particular, with an emphasis on selecting/adapting local foods for optimum nutritional value, rather than suggesting "ideal foods" in a vacuum. According to their statistics, 30% of children under five are stunted by poor nutrition, and less than a third of partially breastfed children over 6 mo have adequate nutrition, so they believe it can save the lives of 1.5 million children.

 

Here it is

http://www.who.int/nutrition/publications/infantfeeding/WHO_NHD_00.1/en/index.html

 

But even something like an apple -- I know I sometimes cut a "monster sized" apple and share it with my kids, and we all have plenty of apple! Just one apple. Fruits and vegetables are quite enormous nowadays.

 

By the way, Marion Nestle (unrelated to the Nestle corporation, and pronounced differently) is an interesting person to read about food marketing.

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I tend to not pay any attention to these government recommendations. I find the whole notion useless.

 

You make me laugh, regentrude; in some ways I agree with you...but in others not.

 

And the bolded is something I do not agree with. Are there really people who are so clueless that they wait for the government to tell them what they should eat?

 

No, no - you missed my point....The labeling started with calories, salt content, etc...People do need to know salt content - well we used to think they did, and certainly there are some people whose BP (blood pressure) is affected by salt intake....So I wasn't trying to say the gov was telling them what to eat....

 

so 'wise choices' such as ones with less salt if they need that....or less calories if they need that....If they need to look for food that has less salt, they can look at the label. Don't you find that helpful (presuming that it was by standard weight)?

 

ETA: I also think the whole nutrition information is highly overrated, because there are so many different ways to eat healthy and balanced.

 

I don't believe that diet can always save. (But I'm interested in the pyramids, etc. because I really feel better, sleep better, have better skin, and think more clearly when I'm eating better (providing there aren't other huge stressors). And yes there are people who have extremely unhealthy diets who live long.

 

German senior citizens are not less healthy than American seniors.

 

It's hard to say. Sometimes they look at the number of centenarians. In that respect the US is better than Germany, but France is better than the US, and Japan is better than the US...Scroll down to the table of Centenarian populations...but I don't know if that is really a good measure of quality of life for the elderly of a country. They have tried to use it to promote the Japanese diet...

 

Just heard some interesting statistics about 'arsenic' in rice. As you know the Japanese eat enormous amounts of rice and therefore higher levels of arsenic. Yet they have the highest percent of people over 100 yo in the world....So there are questions about bioavailability of it, etc...The world in which we live is exceedingly complex which makes it a lot easier to just choose to eat the way our grandparents did presuming that diet is still available.

 

A Swiss friend talked about how eating bread with a hard crust had helped her grandmother still have her original teeth in her old age. But in the US it can be hard to find bread with such a hard crust....

 

I would not see any difference if they gave the standard as a volume, say 4 oz. The problem is not weighing vs measuring cup, it is the strange notion that somebody should decide what appropriate "serving sizes" are - doesn't that totally depend on the context of your meal, what dishes are served together, what else you eat that day?

 

I unintentionally distracted you with the 100 g vs 4 oz....

 

My point was that people have the habit of measuring with cups, not weighing their food. My hypothesis is that since the gov was trying to do things in a way that people typically do, ie measure with cups, that they ended up using the same approach with labeling....

 

Now I agree that it is pretty useless and am just as frustrated with you - there are lots of reasons I don't want to move back to the US. But I tend to try to figure out why people do things the way they do...

 

How is it useful, for example, that somebody tells me one serving of pasta is 3/4 of a cup, with 8 such servings in one box? If it is a side dish with meat, that may suffice - but if it is our main dish and we went hiking, we each will have four of these servings as our meal, and my teenage son will easily eat all 8 servings because he is growing. It is completely useless to label "serving".

 

Good point.

 

I would assume most people know that milk has pretty much the same density as water, so grams and milliliters are the same. So 300 g of milk is 300 ml (one cup is about 240 ml.)

 

Even though I'm somewhat educated and have just been going over conversions with dd - it didn't occur to me. :) But then I grew up with oz, lbs, etc....

 

This conversation is fascinating to me. Thanks for all the great links. I think I'll go get a snack ... an apple.

 

Sounds like a healthy choice. :001_smile:

 

Here it is

http://www.who.int/nutrition/publications/infantfeeding/WHO_NHD_00.1/en/index.html

 

By the way, Marion Nestle (unrelated to the Nestle corporation, and pronounced differently) is an interesting person to read about food marketing.

 

That looks like a useful publication - esp for people in the field...

 

How funny - Marion Nestle just came up in a conversation last night -let's see, was it related to Coke bribes? Maybe I'll remember by tomorrow....I hadn't heard of her before...

 

Good night!

Joan

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so 'wise choices' such as ones with less salt if they need that....or less calories if they need that....If they need to look for food that has less salt, they can look at the label. Don't you find that helpful (presuming that it was by standard weight)?

 

OK, so maybe it is helpful to some (I know that if I had to be that concerned about what I consume, I'd cook from scratch and not add salt.)

I am all for labeling the contents of packaged foods! I want to be able to know exactly what substances are added to my foods, so I can eliminate things like MSG or HFCS (*and I believe they should label GMO's as well; it should eb the consumer's choice to eat it or not, but withholding information can not be the way to go)

 

What bugs me about the labeling is when they go beyond just stating facts and try to assign "values" to foods - I am completely against the proposal of color coding, because that's just dumb. Nor should they decide what constitutes a serving.

 

(But I'm interested in the pyramids, etc. because I really feel better, sleep better, have better skin, and think more clearly when I'm eating better (providing there aren't other huge stressors).

 

Oh, absolutely. But the point is that I know when I eat well and I know when I have not - without looking up food on a pyramid or counting calories. I'm pretty sure you do too - the feeling of well being when eating properly is a pretty good clue.

 

 

 

Sometimes they look at the number of centenarians. In that respect the US is better than Germany, but France is better than the US, and Japan is better than the US...Scroll down to the table of Centenarian populations...but I don't know if that is really a good measure of quality of life for the elderly of a country. They have tried to use it to promote the Japanese diet...

But these stats are completely skewed through history! I will never know to what age my grandfather and great-grandfather would have lived before dying of natural causes - because they got killed in the wars. The men who would be centenarians in Germany now would have been born in 1912 and would have been in 27 at the beginning of WWII- a large number would have been shot. In my home town 35,000 people died in a single night from bombings. How can you compare percentages of old people in such a country with a country that did not have the war on its own soil?

 

Even though I'm somewhat educated and have just been going over conversions with dd - it didn't occur to me. :) But then I grew up with oz, lbs, etc....

I grew up with a measuring cup that was labeled in milliliters and simultaneously had labeling scales for grams of sugar, flour, rice. Very handy.

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A Swiss friend talked about how eating bread with a hard crust had helped her grandmother still have her original teeth in her old age. But in the US it can be hard to find bread with such a hard crust....

 

 

Squat toilet use has been associated with a reduction in hip fracture, or at least I thought I'd read this somewhere. I wonder if it doesn't do more to promote building bone mass in the pelvic/hip area than drinking milk for many people. For some cultures, it's really rare. But in the US, hip fracture is very common.

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Squat toilet use has been associated with a reduction in hip fracture, or at least I thought I'd read this somewhere. I wonder if it doesn't do more to promote building bone mass in the pelvic/hip area than drinking milk for many people. For some cultures, it's really rare. But in the US, hip fracture is very common.

 

Any load bearing exercise can help with bone strength. I would suspect it is the general scarcity of such exercise that causes the high rate in hip fracture in the US - not just the toilet.

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I know I sometimes cut a "monster sized" apple and share it with my kids, and we all have plenty of apple! Just one apple. Fruits and vegetables are quite enormous nowadays.

 

It is interesting comparing Swiss and French supermarkets....while genetics can of course play a part in the size of fruits and veggies.....I think these days that fertilizers are playing a very large part....You go over to France and the celery root is twice the size of celery root here. Not everything is larger but there are enough veggies that are larger that we are very suspicious and the children don't even want to buy veggies there...

 

(*and I believe they should label GMO's as well)

 

We're very sorry to hear that the initiative lost in CA.... I heard that the amount spent by Monsanto was $30 million compared to the $7 million the 'against' side could spend.

 

Don't you find that suspicious - regentrude?

 

What bugs me about the labeling is when they go beyond just stating facts and try to assign "values" to foods - I am completely against the proposal of color coding, because that's just dumb. Nor should they decide what constitutes a serving.

 

I agree....

 

Oh, absolutely. But the point is that I know when I eat well and I know when I have not - without looking up food on a pyramid or counting calories. I'm pretty sure you do too - the feeling of well being when eating properly is a pretty good clue.

 

My problem is AGING.... I can eat far less than I used to.... I was sold on the US pyramid in college instead of being like you - listening to the inside and going out....I still have a sweet tooth and while aged cheeses give me a headache, candy doesn't....Some dietary insufficiencies take much more time to manifest themselves with obvious symptoms....I found that I was very unaware of the links between diet and how I felt up until the age of 35 -40....Then I slowly became more aware bit by bit....I think it started with recognizing a difference in PMS symptoms depending on diet....

 

But these stats are completely skewed through history!

 

At first glance it seems like you would have a point. The thing is that the Japanese were also in WWII. But an even more important point is gender....

 

I sing in homes for the elderly and of the average 30 people that will listen, maybe 3-4 are men. Occasionally one or two more...But I'm sure you get my point...there probably are not that many centenarian 'men' no matter the country. At some point I'll try to make sure there is not some fluke in the Japanese population.....

 

I grew up with a measuring cup that was labeled in milliliters and simultaneously had labeling scales for grams of sugar, flour, rice. Very handy.

 

We had one of these which eventually ended up in the sandbox because it was never used...it was interesting to see the difference among measures of rice, flour, etc. There is still the concept there though of 'weight'...

 

Squat toilet use has been associated with a reduction in hip fracture, or at least I thought I'd read this somewhere. I wonder if it doesn't do more to promote building bone mass in the pelvic/hip area than drinking milk for many people. For some cultures, it's really rare. But in the US, hip fracture is very common.

 

Any load bearing exercise can help with bone strength. I would suspect it is the general scarcity of such exercise that causes the high rate in hip fracture in the US - not just the toilet.

 

Well you two really got me wondering. I've used a number of squat toilets in my developing country travels (and have my worst toilet experience ever story) but also in FRANCE! So I was thinking I could at least have some reason to appreciate the experience...:)

 

And while it seems like there is the Ca problem (increased hip fractures with increased milk consumption link potential)....I found it is also not just a question of load bearing....so it could be due to a number of things...

 

Because hip fractures tend to happen when people fall (though they can also happen spontaneously - that would be due to osteop. or lack of load bearing - and actually cause the person to fall when their hip breaks spontaneously), it is thought that 'squatting' can keep a person more agile so that they do not lose their balance and fall...

 

But reading about it made me realize that if I want to travel when elderly, I better practice squatting...because it does take practice to be able to keep your balance and flexibility and not fall over into the toilet!

 

Joan

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When I lived in the Pacific Islands, I was introduced to the Pacific 3 food groups.

 

Healthy Foods

---Fruit

---Vegetables

 

Energy Foods

---Starchy Vegetables

---Breads & Cereals

 

Body Building Foods

---Meat

---Poultry

---Fish

---Dairy

 

I found that the 3 food groups were more meaningful to me than the 4 food groups used in the States at that time. Having a balance of all 3 food groups at each meal seems to work for my family. I do like the look of the Swiss Food Pyramid that Joan in Geneva has introduced us to in this thread. I like how water & exercise is given importance, something that most other food guidelines don't seem to stress or make clear.

 

Thanks for sharing.

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Thanks Deb :-)

 

My dh just forwarded me an article which is related to this thread....

 

how Alzheimer's could be the most catastrophic impact of 'Junk Food' from the UK.

 

I'm very curious if this has been well publicized in the US? Can anyone say?

 

It links an article from the New Scientist in September about 'brain diabetes' or type 3 diabetes which is what some are renaming Alzheimer's...because it's related to how the body is handling insulin....

 

Is the threat of Alzheimer's enough to frighten us humans out of bad eating habits?

 

Joan

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Is the threat of Alzheimer's enough to frighten us humans out of bad eating habits?

 

 

For a lot of people, I think not. The reality of obesity, diabetes, and the like haven't scared many people into changing their ways. A lot of people - like my grandma! - claim they would rather have a shorter life lived by their own rules than a long, miserable one.

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Is the threat of Alzheimer's enough to frighten us humans out of bad eating habits?

 

 

No.

There are well established consequences of a poor diet, such as diabetes and heart disease which, IMO, pose much more tangible threats than the hypothesized Alzheimer connection (a study with 28 subjects???) - and those don't seem to scare many people, even though it is pretty clear that large numbers of people die because of such lifestyle choices.

OTOH, I have seen Alzheimer's in family members with otherwise good health, healthy weight, exercise and good nutrition.

 

So, when I decide to eat healthy, Alzheimer is very far from my mind.

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No.

There are well established consequences of a poor diet, such as diabetes and heart disease which, IMO, pose much more tangible threats than the hypothesized Alzheimer connection (a study with 28 subjects???) - and those don't seem to scare many people, even though it is pretty clear that large numbers of people die because of such lifestyle choices.

OTOH, I have seen Alzheimer's in family members with otherwise good health, healthy weight, exercise and good nutrition.

 

So, when I decide to eat healthy, Alzheimer is very far from my mind.

 

I used to work with nursing home patients and have the opposite opinion. :lol: Alzheimer's is a concern of mine. I have no family history, but it's still something I want to avoid.

 

I've taken nutrition courses and was Pre-med, and I'm teaching nutrition to my oldest kids right now. My dh is a type 1 diabetic. I can guarantee you nothing is a big enough threat to make Americans change their ways soon. It seems to be culturally ingrained selective hearing. :lol: I have family who have had strokes (young, too!) and worse and it's directly related to weight/smoking/poor diet. They won't change. They buy into the junk science that just using Mrs.Dash instead of salt and Splenda in their tea will cure all their ills. :001_huh:

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I used to work with nursing home patients and have the opposite opinion. :lol: Alzheimer's is a concern of mine.

 

Exactly. I'd rather lose my 'toes' than my 'mind' (ETA - what I mean by that is that diabetes didn't really 'scare' me but Alzheimer's does)....I forget if losing the toes is a possibility with both I and II diabetes? - you probably know. I mean it symbolically anyway....I'll end up in a nursing home much quicker if I can't think.

 

Every month we're singing in them and I talk with the ladies who can't think clearly - I was crying about them the other day even....Is there any part of their brain that is still 'with it'? yet they are still alive and needy.

 

pose much more tangible threats than the hypothesized Alzheimer connection (a study with 28 subjects???)

 

That was just the first study in 2005 - there were actually 54 corpses though:) OK, I know that is still extremely small. But I don't have the 'rights' to access all these medical journals with more info....Perhaps you do, regentrude, since you work in a field of science? Some day when I have more time I can hike over to WHO and take a look since their library has access to all those medical journals...

 

But in reading through the articles that I could access, the ones about the sugar industry stand out and are going to go into our 'Politics of Nutrition' study....Today dd watched Food, Inc....I biked down to the library yesterday and got it out just like that - faster than Amazon - esp over here.:)

 

Joan

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I used to work with nursing home patients and have the opposite opinion. Alzheimer's is a concern of mine. I have no family history, but it's still something I want to avoid.

 

I think you misunderstood my previous post. It is not that I do not think Alzheimer is horrible and want to avoid it - but the reason I eat healthy and exercise is not the threat of dementia a few decades down the road, but rather that it enables me to lead the active lifestyle I want to lead now. (Actually, I should not even claim that; the reason I eat well is that this is how I grew up and that's how my family always ate. So, maybe it's simply culture.)

 

And, seeing family members with Alzheimer's who did not eat junk food, but cooked healthy meals from scratch every day and ate little processed foods, does not impress the diet-dementia connection on me. I am much more worried about DH's genetic heritage and family disposition; there is really not much he can improve about his lifestyle.

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Hi, all, I've been reading this thread off and on and haven't really had time to respond. I'd like to pull out a series of quotes that I found interesting because of something my family is dealing with right now.

 

And the bolded is something I do not agree with. Are there really people who are so clueless that they wait for the government to tell them what they should eat? I find the thought disturbing. I have not met anybody who does not basically know how they *should* eat healthy; many people just choose not to.

 

 

People do need to know salt content - well we used to think they did, and certainly there are some people whose BP (blood pressure) is affected by salt intake....So I wasn't trying to say the gov was telling them what to eat....

 

so 'wise choices' such as ones with less salt if they need that....or less calories if they need that....If they need to look for food that has less salt, they can look at the label. Don't you find that helpful (presuming that it was by standard weight)?

 

 

am all for labeling the contents of packaged foods! I want to be able to know exactly what substances are added to my foods, so I can eliminate things like MSG or HFCS (*and I believe they should label GMO's as well; it should eb the consumer's choice to eat it or not, but withholding information can not be the way to go)

 

Here's what's got me thinking and how my mind is slowly tying this all together. My dh has spent the last month or so learning that he has serious heart failure. And they have zero idea what is happening to him. About a year ago he had blood clots and was hospitalized for that and has taken blood thinners since. They think maybe the blood clots damaged his heart (and they have no idea what caused them) or he has sarcoidosis of the heart (but they're not sure because there are no good test available) OR maybe it's in inherited disease of some sort (based on their description this wouldn't be something like obvious but something that skips around hitting only a few family members at most in a generation). His arteries are fine so it's not diet caused or the typical kind of heart disease most folks have.

 

BUT they think lowering sodium intake is a good idea on a lot of fronts. Sodium causes the body to retain water which is part of a vicious cycle in heart disease.

 

So I've spent a bit of time figuring this out in the last few weeks and I'm blessed to have a lot of resources to do this with: I'm a stay at home mom and I have older kids so I can go to the grocery store and spend hours looking at stuff and be okay. And if I need to cook something, I'm home. We have financial means to buy more expensive stuff. Even better I've always been a foody (not a crunchy: a true Julia Child foody) so I am used to the idea of real food and I've cooked a lot of weird things that no one much makes on their own over the years: sausages, condiments (mustard, pickles, etc), yogurt, cheese, bread, etc.

 

Even so this has been massively challenging because so much easy to use food has inordinate amounts of sodium in it. Things that I know aren't originally made with sodium have a bunch (yogurt).

 

We are in a fairly nice sized city with several chains of grocery stores all around plus three specialty stores: Whole Foods, Earth Fare, and The Fresh Market. You'd think Whole Foods would save me, but it's been a huge let down. Thus far they have very few low sodium items that I've checked on. No low sodium yogurts, no low sodium canned beans, etc. I still haven't shopped everything I need to at them but we'll see.

 

Let's not even talk about low sodium bread or cheese or luncheon meats. I maybe able to get some mail order but imagine how much cheese costs when you mail order it.

 

I can't imagine what someone who is a typical resident of my area would do if they were faced with this. Probably make "poor choices" not because they didn't want to change but because the amount of energy they have and the ability to buy items is limited.

 

I found this comment on one no sodium cookbook that kind of sums this up:

http://www.amazon.com/The-No-Salt-Cookbook-Eliminate-Sacrificing/product-reviews/1580625258/ref=cm_cr_dp_qt_hist_one?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0

 

Oddly at some point during this time period while I was driving about town I heard an interview on NPR in which the person interviewed talked about making it easier for people to make the right choices. I agree! I could never find the interview itself on their website but I think I found the paper they were talking about: http://211.144.68.84:9998/91keshi/Public/File/41/337-6101/pdf/1492.full.pdf

 

I found a less scientific take here: http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2010/01/yorks-ban-salt-patients-healthier.html

 

Now, here's the thing I'm not sure the government should tell business what to do or people what to eat, but I am mighty frustrated that there is so much sodium in our food and that there is no way to get food without sodium in it unless you make everything yourself. Sodium is not good for anyone so can't we regulate like we do other poisons in food? Grrr. There needs to be a middle ground.

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I am sorry to hear about your DH's health issues, but I really was struck by this remark:

 

Sodium is not good for anyone so can't we regulate like we do other poisons in food? Grrr.

 

The bolded is just incorrect - in fact, sodium is vitally necessary for any human and a lack of sodium will lead to death. So no, you can not regulate it like poison, because it is an element necessary for the proper functioning of your body.

 

ETA: I do not believe "low sodium yoghurt" is at all possible, because milk without any added salt already has 130mg naturally occurring sodium per cup. the 160g sodium in a cup of plain yoghurt are not added, but come from the milk.

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And the addition of iodine into table salt has eliminated diseases such as goiter. I know it's become popular to poopoo iodized salt, but it's really addressed that problem in many populations. My husband has known people with goiter and so takes his iodine intake very seriously.

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I am sorry to hear about your DH's health issues, but I really was struck by this remark:

 

 

 

The bolded is just incorrect - in fact, sodium is vitally necessary for any human and a lack of sodium will lead to death. So no, you can not regulate it like poison, because it is an element necessary for the proper functioning of your body.

 

ETA: I do not believe "low sodium yoghurt" is at all possible, because milk without any added salt already has 130mg naturally occurring sodium per cup. the 160g sodium in a cup of plain yoghurt are not added, but come from the milk.

 

Okay, you are right but in my research I've found 500 mg is probably the amount most people need (younger and more athletic people need more). Six times that does is I believe the average amount consumed by Americans.

 

I can tell you on the yogurt front that I have found yogurt as low as 20 mg a cup with some going up over 100. Having made yogurt, I know you don't add salt to it. Don't know what happens in the 20 mg yogurt to the rest of sodium in milk.

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And the addition of iodine into table salt has eliminated diseases such as goiter. I know it's become popular to poopoo iodized salt, but it's really addressed that problem in many populations. My husband has known people with goiter and so takes his iodine intake very seriously.

 

True but most sodium doesn't come from table salt or have iodine with it.

 

If your read the link you'll see most of it is hidden in many processed foods that don't even taste like salt.

 

The real point here is it would be better to get your sodium added to your diet by you not by some company elsewhere.

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I am sorry to hear about your DH's health issues, but I really was struck by this remark:

 

Sodium is not good for anyone so can't we regulate like we do other poisons in food? Grrr.

 

The bolded is just incorrect

 

I just got home and have to get to bed....

 

I think her statement just is not written clearly - probably due to the stress she is under with her husband's health. If she really thought it was a only poison (toxin), she would propose regulating it which she is not. But she seems to be recognizing that we need some, just not as much as is in the typical diet...

 

Candid I'll write more about your post tomorrow.... (ETA - I see you have been busy posting while I'm writing :-))

 

Joan

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The real point here is it would be better to get your sodium added to your diet by you not by some company elsewhere.

 

Completely agree. Which is why a diet with as many fresh ingredients and as few processed foods as possible is probably best. Let's cook from scratch... like our grandparents.

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If your read the link you'll see most of it is hidden in many processed foods that don't even taste like salt.

 

The real point here is it would be better to get your sodium added to your diet by you not by some company elsewhere.

I'm aware of that, but I cook a lot of food at home, myself, including most of my baked goods, so a lot of the sodium I eat is added by me. I don't eat a lot of canned goods, nor prepared sauces or frozen dinners. I don't use many condiments on everything. I usually either make my own plain yogurt or buy plain yogurt. The plain yogurt I have in my frig right now has 170 mg (7% RDA) in it, but doesn't have sodium or salt on the ingredient list.

 

Also the more salty foods one eats, the more used to it one becomes. I have found it helpful to slowly reduce, to allow my tastebuds to adjust. But I don't fret a lot about home cooked meals.

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I would not see any difference if they gave the standard as a volume, say 4 oz. The problem is not weighing vs measuring cup, it is the strange notion that somebody should decide what appropriate "serving sizes" are - doesn't that totally depend on the context of your meal, what dishes are served together, what else you eat that day?

 

Serving sizes are a useful concept for diabetics. Most people start off thinking a serving is how much you want to eat of something, and get a heck of a shock when they find out what a punnet of strawberries has done to their blood sugar levels. It gives a sort of shared vocabulary for people in those situations and their caregivers.

 

Rosie

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Back to Marion Nestle, she was very dubious of the USDA's claim of how inexpensive it would be to fulfill their recommended servings of fruits and vegetables, so she tried it for herself. I remember she talked about green beans. I don't know what else factored in. Anyhow, she discovered that a) it matched with her cost, and b) the "serving size" for green beans was quite small, so what a typical adult might expect to eat would actually be more than one "serving" of green beans.

 

You can see this section in her book "What to Eat" here.

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I just got home and have to get to bed....

 

I think her statement just is not written clearly - probably due to the stress she is under with her husband's health. If she really thought it was a only poison (toxin), she would propose regulating it which she is not. But she seems to be recognizing that we need some, just not as much as is in the typical diet...

 

Candid I'll write more about your post tomorrow.... (ETA - I see you have been busy posting while I'm writing :-))

 

Joan

 

First, I look forward to a post from you!

 

But, I am not willing to accept my poorly worded statement was due to stress. Truth was it was due to not spending enough time thinking and crafting what I was writing! Forgive me.:D

 

Further, I'm not really a science person but a lit and history person so sometimes the vocabulary nuances are just not in me: in this case the toxin vs. poison part. However, I should do better and will strive to.

 

Let me suggest for comparison another metal that we both need and yet in large doses is toxic: Iron. You can buy iron supplements, but they do have a cap due to their fatal toxicity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_poisoning

 

Suppose iron tasted really good (it doesn't, thankfully) would manufactures be allowed to load food up with it to just under the daily limit and then say, "But my product is under the daily max?" Probably not.

 

So why not sodium as well? Part of the answer to that is that iron is so immediately toxic and deadly that the connection is obvious. Sodium is less immediately toxic and there are some folks who eat a high sodium diet and have no problems with it (although the CDC's 6 out of 10 was pretty surprising to me).

 

I'm not naive enough to believe that manufacture's wouldn't do this. You have but to look at the melamine in food products coming from China to see what an unregulated food industry is willing to do: http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=why-is-melamine-in-baby-formula-you-2008-09-24

 

One of the things I point out in my first post is how hard I've had to work to cut this stuff out. I certainly can't shop at one store anymore and I'm actually creating a database so I can remember where certain items are. Is this realistic to expect of folks? I don't think so. Which I believe is the point of the more scholarly of the two first articles I posted. The easier you make healthy eating the more likely it is that everyone will do it.

 

The other part is cost, some items would be immediately out of reach for folks who don't have time to deal with them like cheese. Even bread would be problematic for someone who comes home after a long day of work. There are both sodium free baking powders and baking sodas but in the case of soda I can only find it on the internet so it would be a huge reach for someone who is poorer than I am. I can't imagine yeast bread if I came home after long hours on my feet and had to make it. It wouldn't get made.

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Back to Marion Nestle, she was very dubious of the USDA's claim of how inexpensive it would be to fulfill their recommended servings of fruits and vegetables, so she tried it for herself. I remember she talked about green beans. I don't know what else factored in. Anyhow, she discovered that a) it matched with her cost, and b) the "serving size" for green beans was quite small, so what a typical adult might expect to eat would actually be more than one "serving" of green beans.

 

You can see this section in her book "What to Eat" here.

 

I've got this on my to be read shelf! Have you read the whole book? Is it interesting? Well written?

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