XP: Stealth Dyslexia...diagnosis?

[LisaKinVA]

Any advice for diagnosis and treatment? I have a 9yo who exhibits signs...and it's possible my 6yo also may have this. Ideas from those who have btdt?

 

Thanks!

[Mukmuk]

My son is stealth dyslexic (dx'd). Because even regular dyslexia can be different for each child, the symptoms can vary widely. In my son's case, the difference between his Verbal Comprehension (Wisc) and Language output (achievement test) is super massive. The difference needs to be 1.5 standard deviations, about 23.5 points.

 

My son has no problems with phonics, spelling, reading and comprehension. If anything, these range from being above grade level to top of the range. A lot of his problems are visual, ie, he skips words. His comprehension, apparently, is from pure inference. He also has dysgraphia and related working memory issues, compounded by CAPD. Because he was so resistent to writing, his sentence formation was very poor at the time of testing (he was on the cusp of 9). We're awaiting vision therapy yet again (taking a break now) and fitting him with Irlen lenses for the interim. In the meanwhile, even though he has no spelling issues (he reads a lot and remembers each word like a picture), he was put on a spelling program. This has helped tonnes in just getting him in the frame of mind to think of words as a breakdown of smaller components, and he's much more willing to write; typing also helps! He's also doing Reading Assistant (from Scilearn) to get his eyes to move across the page smoothly. For working memory, Cogmed was superb.

 

Are these your son's issues? You might want to to look at these slides from the Eides about stealth dyslexia in gifted kids.

[FairProspects]

Are these your son's issues? You might want to to look at these slides from the Eides about stealth dyslexia in gifted kids.

 

How have I never seen these slides? I am loving them!

 

I don't know if ds is considered stealth dyslexic because he was caught and diagnosed so young, but when he was in PS K, he was in the top reading group and no one ever suggested evals so I suspect is would fit in that category.

[FairProspects]

My son is stealth dyslexic (dx'd). Because even regular dyslexia can be different for each child, the symptoms can vary widely. In my son's case, the difference between his Verbal Comprehension (Wisc) and Language output (achievement test) is super massive. The difference needs to be 1.5 standard deviations, about 23.5 points.

 

Can I be nosy and ask you how big the super massive spread is? I've never found anyone on the board or in IRL whose dc have a spread as big as ds does so I'm very curious.

[Mukmuk]

I want to add that even though DS has no issues with reading, his processing style is very much like that described in The Dyslexic Advantage. He has amazing insights and visualization skills, and is very much a big picture guy. Details are not his thing, although he loves math.

 

Fair Prospects, the link I attached has these wonderful slides by the Eides on the right side-bar. I particularly love this.

 

Enjoy!

[Mukmuk]

I was reading another thread an realized that what I wrote here sounds like stealth dyslexia is 100% a vision problem. I need to clarify this:

 

- my son still reverses letters at this age (9.75).

- in writing out the alphabet (part of the Wiat, I believe), he had several letters missing, and "j" was written the same way as "g", ie, it was another "g" where "j" should have been.

- we've gone on holiday for 2 weeks and when he came back, he forgot how to write his name. That just happened a 2 months ago (I've always had him write his name on every piece of work).

 

I think the lines of distinction between dyslexia and dysgraphia blur in my son's case. But clearly, it's not just visual. There's something neurological going on. His vision issues are also very persistent. We've gone though 3 years of vision therapy by now, with various professionals. It just keeps reverting to baseline after several months (I can tell when he starts walking into things). By now, my goal is just personal safety and some basic ball ability for sports. And oh, bicycling.

[Corraleno]

Can I be nosy and ask you how big the super massive spread is? I've never found anyone on the board or in IRL whose dc have a spread as big as ds does so I'm very curious.

I'm not Mukmuk, but I can tell you what my DS's spread was:

Reading Comprehension 75th%

Written Language 10th%

There was a 4 grade level difference in the "grade equivalent" scores for those two things. And he was only 7th% in the Writing Samples section.

 

Jackie

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[Heathermomster]

Any advice for diagnosis and treatment? I have a 9yo who exhibits signs...and it's possible my 6yo also may have this. Ideas from those who have btdt?

 

Thanks!

 

A gifted dyslexic can be overlooked during basic dyslexic screenings. These kids tend to rely heavily on their memory. By about 4th grade, they are overwhelmed and their coping strategies break down. A NP that specializes or is familiar with gifted children, may benefit you. Thorough testing would indicate strengths and weakness and provide a clearer picture.

 

My son worked with a Wilson tutor for reading and now uses all the typical accommodations allowed for dyslexics. Teaching to their learning style and embracing strengths makes a huge difference.

[TippyCanoe]

nm

[Guest BluePoppy]

I am very glad to have found this forum & posts on stealth dyslexia. I have been baffled & frustrated for the last 2 years with my DD8 who is clearly very bright, yet struggles with spelling, math facts & writing coherent sentences.  I appreciate everyone's sharing. :)

[Guest BluePoppy]

My son is stealth dyslexic (dx'd). Because even regular dyslexia can be different for each child, the symptoms can vary widely. In my son's case, the difference between his Verbal Comprehension (Wisc) and Language output (achievement test) is super massive. The difference needs to be 1.5 standard deviations, about 23.5 points.

 

My son has no problems with phonics, spelling, reading and comprehension. If anything, these range from being above grade level to top of the range. A lot of his problems are visual, ie, he skips words. His comprehension, apparently, is from pure inference. He also has dysgraphia and related working memory issues, compounded by CAPD. Because he was so resistent to writing, his sentence formation was very poor at the time of testing (he was on the cusp of 9). We're awaiting vision therapy yet again (taking a break now) and fitting him with Irlen lenses for the interim. In the meanwhile, even though he has no spelling issues (he reads a lot and remembers each word like a picture), he was put on a spelling program. This has helped tonnes in just getting him in the frame of mind to think of words as a breakdown of smaller components, and he's much more willing to write; typing also helps! He's also doing Reading Assistant (from Scilearn) to get his eyes to move across the page smoothly. For working memory, Cogmed was superb.

 

Are these your son's issues? You might want to to look at these slides from the Eides about stealth dyslexia in gifted kids.

 

Can you share how your son was dx'd?  I have previously seen the Eides' slideshow. This is part of what convinced me this is what I am dealing with in my DD.

 

I have lots of confirmation from multiple sources (not official testing though) that my DD is gifted. From what I have read about stealth dyslexia thus far, it is difficult to get tested for specifically. Her reading & comprehension skills are outstanding (thought she skips words) & her grasp of in depth science & history/social concepts amazing. However, spelling, sentence writing & math are a struggle.

 

Thank you for any feedback you may give, including curriculum ideas to help her. :)

[EKS]

Someone asked about score spread:  My son had stealth dyslexia but not in the way you might think.  He was not in the top reading group, but all of his testing at age 7 averaged out to average, so no one (except me) thought there was a problem.  After homeschooling for several years, his highest WISC IV index score was at the 99th percentile, while the lowest one was at the 1st percentile.

[OneStepAtATime]

Both of my kids are stealth dyslexics and they presented with VERY DIFFERENT weaknesses and strengths when they were in a brick and mortar school.  They are also both gifted range.  Not one person ever mentioned to me anything about dyslexia because they could function, and my son was actually at the top of his class through 1st grade.  My daughter made it to 5th before we finally had her assessed outside the school system and it finally all gelled.  It was the best thing we ever did and I kick myself we didn't get an assessement sooner.  Dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia, ADHD, ADD etc. are all things that can be tricky to diagnose because every child is different within those diagnoseses (how do you pluralize this word?).

 

See if your insurance will cover assessment through a Neuro-psychologist and see if you can find one that specializes in 2e kids.  If you haven't already, then read up, get informed in more depth.  It will help you to better assess whether the people you talk to about assessment are really knowledgeable and it will help you better understand everything that your child may be going through just to learn.  There are a lot of professionals, by the way, who are not actually that up on the latest scientific research on dyslexia, no matter how impressive their degree.  You want someone who genuinely is keeping up with the lastest scientific research and will not only assess but will take the time to give you an in depth explanation of the results, not just a paper with a bunch of numbers.  You also want someone who is going to assess not just for current weaknesses that might affect performance in a classroom setting (some only really approach it from that lens).  You want someone who will look at where the weaknesses are overall, but also (and this is critical) you want them to show you strengths, too.  

 

My kids have very different strengths and weaknesses withing the dyslexia diagnosis.  Finding out their strengths was a tremendous help in assisting them with their weaknesses and some of their strengths were not readily apparent and had remained untapped until the evaluation.  The evaluation for each child took literally all day, several hours, but the evaluator was so good that they both came out feeling good about themselves and were not worn out.  I came back on a separate day each time for the evaluator to explain the results and she took nearly three hours with one and over three hours with the other explanation as we walked through all the results.  She was incredibly informative, gave us some great jumping off points for where to go from there, etc.  

 

I will mention though, that even with all of that wonderful data, though, she did not catch my daughter's dyscalculia or my son's dysgraphia because they were not far enough outside the norms yet and these were not her areas of expertise.  We had to go further afield for those assessments.  I wouldn't trade that evaluation for the world, though, because we finally had some amazing and helpful answers as to WHY the kids struggled in certain areas yet seemed so incredibly bright.  It really opened my mind to the realization that our definition of intelligence is SO NARROW and is more and more defined by the limited lens of "intelligence" in the public school system.

 

One of the most intelligent people I know is my own husband, but he nearly didn't even graduate high school.  Why?  Because he is dyslexic, dysgraphic and probably dyscalculic.  He is also a brilliant engineer, computer specialist and pilot.  In school, his intelligence was only defined through a very narrow window.  "If you are highly intelligent you must be able to read and write early."  It simply isn't true.  That doesn't reflect the bigger picture of us as a human race.  My husband is highly respected in his field, has been employed successfully and continually in that field since high school and I doubt most of his colleagues even have a clue that school was difficult for him.  In fact most assume he has at least a Masters and maybe a PhD.  He has neither.  He never needed them for gaining knowledge or for getting great jobs and continually moving up the ladder in his company.  Was he lucky?  Yes.  But he also was encouraged by his parents to find his real strengths growing up.  They didn't pay attention to what the school was saying and encouraged all of his outside interests, including electronics, science, computers, mechanical engineering, life sciences, flight, etc. This led him down a far more productive path than the school system was trying to push him towards, while also conversely telling him he was not intelligent enough to succeed.

 

Anyway, I digress....

Reading suggestions while deciding if and when to get an assessment, in case you haven't read these:

1. The Mislabeled Child and The Dyslexic Advantage by Brock and Fernette Eide (as mentioned by others)
2. Overcoming Dyslexia by Sally Shaywitz (sp?)
3. Homeschooling Your Struggling Learner by Kathy Kuhl
4. Smart but Scattered by Peg Dawson and Richard Guare (not specific to dyslexics but I found helpful for shoring up executive functions and sequencing issues and getting myself better organized for all the remediation and accomodations we had to implement while still keeping things challenging)

Books that might be of interest later, if you want to keep reading:

1. Teaching Students with Dyslexia and Dysgraphia by Virginia Berninger and Beverly J. Wolf (but this is really for classroom teachers and may be of limited use at this juncture)
2. The Dyslexia Empowerment Plan by Ben Foss (I had issues with parts of this book but it IS very informative

There are others, but the first list should help.  Good luck!

[OneStepAtATime]

another stupid double post...sorry everyone, my mouse is secretly double clicking everything.  Need a new mouse.  Maybe for Christmas...

[Guest BluePoppy]

Thank you so much, OneStep!  The very next thing I will do is check my insurance for neuro-psychologists as you suggested.

 

Funny what lead me to this epiphany with DD. My SIL teaches at the top performing school in one of the best school districts in our state. She has an MA in education & her school integrates GATE & average (is that the right term?) students, so she has had a lot of training on teaching gifted students. She suggested I reaserch some on how to best teach gifted students. I had a few books in my Amazon Wish List & The Mislabeled Child was one of them. I looked at the Amazon preview & googled "gifted child problem spelling math". Which lead me to 'stealth dyslexia' and that lead me to the Eide's slide show presentation. Half way through the slide show I called my SIL nearly in tears.

 

Now I'm trying to figure out where to go from here. She has been homeschooled since Kinder (BJU), which was a breeze, but we hit the sticking point in 1st (ABeka) with spelling & math. Because of this, we're still working through 2nd grade material, while she should be at the 3rd grade level. 

 

Side note: On the Eide's slideshow, does anyone know how to read slide 42?
http://www.slideshare.net/drseide/stealth-dyslexia-in-gifted-children-1565818

[Mukmuk]

Can you share how your son was dx'd? I have previously seen the Eides' slideshow. This is part of what convinced me this is what I am dealing with in my DD.

 

I have lots of confirmation from multiple sources (not official testing though) that my DD is gifted. From what I have read about stealth dyslexia thus far, it is difficult to get tested for specifically. Her reading & comprehension skills are outstanding (thought she skips words) & her grasp of in depth science & history/social concepts amazing. However, spelling, sentence writing & math are a struggle.

 

Thank you for any feedback you may give, including curriculum ideas to help her. :)

Hi Blue Poppy,

 

So sorry I missed this as we were fighting a different monster, urgh. It's largely over now!!

 

Ds was dx'd by the Eides. He was evaluated over 2 days, for about 4-5 hours on the 1st day, and about 2-3 hours on the following day. I just pulled out his report to read and the basis for the Stealth Dyslexia dx rests primarily on the difference between his Verbal Comprehension and reading and writing achievement scores (roughly 70 points).

 

From reading the other posts, it's clear that each child with stealth dyslexia can present very differently because of different compensation strategies. According to the Eides, spelling is *the* defining standard for the dyslexia dx. Yet, ds has stellar spelling achievement scores, because of his memory of shapes. I remember the Eides having a discussion about this, because it doesn't fit into their findings either. Till today, I see evidence of this "shape" memory.

 

It's been nearly 2 years since the evaluation and perhaps, I can help by telling you how my kid has developed since, to give you a fast forward. We haven't done any evaluations since then, but this is what I see:

 

In terms of reading, I was completely bowled over that he was dx'd with dyslexia in the 1st place, since he was reading from an early age. But it's the individual word reading that he stumbled at. He used to read a book several times over (best value for money reading, I used to call it), but that seems to have been reduced. He reads a lot more now, and his tastes have become varied. He used to love math and science books only, and while these are still the mainstay, he's liking fiction a lot more.

 

Math - I was very confused whether he was dyscalculic because he'd comprehend concepts easily but forget them just as easily over a matter of days/weeks. I think he didn't get this dx because the difference between his math problem solving and math facts, while huge at 33 points, paled in comparison with the difference in his verbal comprehension vs reading & writing achievement scores. All that changed at 9 (after the evaluation), and he continues to do well with more abstract ideas. The Eides think that he will flourish particularly at calculus and beyond. We haven't got to calculus yet, but I can tell you that from algebra and onwards, things are a lot smoother!

 

The Eides summarised his weakness to be that of procedural learning. He finds it hard to develop automaticity in any skill. Or rather, he needs to develop it according to his own strengths. One example is how he reads music notes. Ds has no interest/ has difficulty, in naming notes. I've taught him the mnemonics so many times, but his instinct is not to follow procedure. Instead, each note has a different sound to him that he can sing or play rightaway. So his sight playing is great. In math too, he notices different patterns or uses different methods to reach the same conclusions. This can't always work, so he spends a lot of time thinking through the basic ideas. It always befuddled dh and I as to why he wouldn't use what we see as the "easier", more straightforward method to arrive at the answer. But he doesn't always see things the same way.

 

Because of their different brain pathways, what seems logical and straightforward to the general population may not be so for these kids and vice versa. It's been a huge learning experience for me for sure. My motto these days is, whatever works :).

 

I so agree with Onestep's idea that the concept of intelligence is too narrow. And I love her book list too. Here's a few more that may be useful:

 

- The Dyslexic Advantage by Brock and Fernette Eide

- In the MInd's Eye, by Thomas West.

 

Good luck!

[Guest BluePoppy]

Thank you so much for your feedback, Mukmuk!  I was looking for neuropsychologists in CA that were familiar with SD.  I came across Dr. Dan Peters who was giving a SD talk at the annual NAGC Conference that day (last weekend). He is from a clinic about 2-1/2 hrs from me & after a little more research, decided I would be contacting him about evaluating my DD.  

On a separate issue, I went to Drs Eide website to see if there was a way to contact them to ask about audio for their SD slideshow. Their homepage notes that they are not taking any new patients due to a year+ waiting list, but they recommended two other doctors. One of them being Dr Peters!  I was soooo thrilled. Then I emailed my question. I was stunned to get a very personal and detailed response to my questions from Dr. Brock Eide in just 20 minutes.   And we now have an initial consultation appointment with Dr Peters at the end of the month. 

What tests did Drs Eide do for your son?  The lady I talked to mentioned the WISC IV and Woodcock-Johnson ($675 each!! :ohmy: ) and she said there will likely be a couple others.

[zoobie]

My oldest has stealth dyslexia. I just call it dyslexia though. ;) She has a great memory and is "gifted," so her reading comprehension has always been above average. Her spelling was atrocious! I thought something was wrong back when she was 5 and not reading fluently because she'd known all her letter sounds from before 2. She could not blend at all. Her teachers all thought we were overachiever-pushy parents. We had her evaluated by an clinical psychologist who specializes in educational testing. She observed her in class (obviously she was not homeschooled then), and we spread the tests out over two days. It was not cheap. After the diagnosis, we found a great tutor who has trained in several OG methods and used to work at one of the dyslexia schools here. I think it's important to go back to square one even if the kid can "read" because as the material gets more difficult, looking for context clues and trying to retrieve the word images from memory will slow them down. (Layperson translation there--I'm sure those are not the technical terms. :) ) The first year we focused most on remediation. I didn't push writing (she also has mild dysgraphia) and read aloud to her. She has been able to verbalize what makes reading easier. She prefers white paper and a plain, dark print. Books printed on that cream-gray paper with the slightly blurry (generally cheaper books like Scholastic) print or a "fancy" font are more difficult. The regular Kindle's background was too dark for her. She prefers the Kindle for iPad app, and she can manipulate the font size and type. The book size isn't overwhelming on the Kindle. She now loves to read! Spelling will always be a struggle, but it's SO much better. We can tell what she's written instead of having to make her translate.

 

Good luck on your journey!

[Mukmuk]

Blue Poppy, 

 

Hope Dr Peters works out! The Eides have been nothing but wonderful to us too!

 

The tests my son did were the Wisc IV, the WJ III and the Wiat. He also did some neuropsych tests to determine neuro-psychomotor ability, and they found him to be apraxic. He had no separate test for phonemes, presumably because these checked out fine on the achievement tests. Ds had previous Auditory processing and visual processing reports that the Eides went through with a fine tooth comb. They were able to pick out from the reports (that the audiologist did not!) that ds had some low level hearing loss (the frequencies most used in speech). They also noticed that despite speaking clearly and having a good grasp of phonemes, he couldn't hear the difference in various sound pairs. So again, there must be some compensation mechanism here which, while fairly effective, was very tiring. These finding were crucial for the range of therapies they prescribed to us.

[Guest BluePoppy]

Thank you both so much for the feedback of your experiences!  All the information I've gathered from this forum has probably helped put my mind at ease more than anything else I've read. Experiences of other HS parents who have traveled this road. 

Zoobie, the reinforcement that my decision to go remedial for now is huge!  I've taken her back to 2nd on language/phonics & mid 1st in math.  We just skip over the material that is overly remedial for her like letter sounds & most blends, aside from speed drills.  She *should* be in 3rd.  I'm just wondering if she will "catch up" at some point or this is a permanent reset point. 

 

Mukmuk, the test information is great.  You also reminded me that I want to get DDs eyes tested before her evaluations with Dr Peters.

[zoobie]

Thank you both so much for the feedback of your experiences! All the information I've gathered from this forum has probably helped put my mind at ease more than anything else I've read. Experiences of other HS parents who have traveled this road.

 

Zoobie, the reinforcement that my decision to go remedial for now is huge! I've taken her back to 2nd on language/phonics & mid 1st in math. We just skip over the material that is overly remedial for her like letter sounds & most blends, aside from speed drills. She *should* be in 3rd. I'm just wondering if she will "catch up" at some point or this is a permanent reset point.

 

Mukmuk, the test information is great. You also reminded me that I want to get DDs eyes tested before her evaluations with Dr Peters.

The tutor started from scratch with phonics. Unless your DD has had explicit phonics instruction, she may know the basic 26 letter sounds but not the many, many phonemes. I certainly didn't, and I'm still trying to learn them to be able to teach her better. Last year the tutor came for an hour 3x/wk. I wanted her to work really hard during that hour, and didn't schedule stuff before or right after. It honestly was a fairly "light" year other than the tutoring. [i also had a newborn and was homeschooling for the first time! It was survival mode some days.]

 

I used MCT grammar because it was read-aloud/together, and I didn't push it. DD liked grammar from Montessori and asked for it. She did not have any math complications and loves it, but I put her at year 3 Math Mammoth because learning how to use a different math setup AND write out work was very different from Montessori manipulative math. I let her work at her own pace and she finished 3 in less than a year. I thought she would like Beast Academy, but she hates the comic book format and font. For Science, I pulled units from Evan Moor Daily Science (there's a love/hate thread in the K-8 forum right now) and supplemented with documentaries. It worked well, and I'm continuing that this year but with extra books too. Last year I was NOT pushing reading and wanted the simple, clear cut format. I used EM Daily Geography too. History got a little lost in the shuffle. I read "good" books aloud, and after about 6 months of tutoring, she started reading more and more on her own for fun. I let her pick WHATEVER she wanted to read! This year I have assigned reading for 30 min/day and choose that book.

 

Starting from scratch did not represent a three-year setback at all for my DD. We haven't redone the full battery of testing, but per state law, we did a standardized test (ITBS) at the end of the year and her tutor redid screening tests after a year, and we are more than satisfied with the results. Her spelling still sucks :) so that's what the tutor is focusing on this year. "Grade level work" isn't our goal. I want her to work at her level. That was the scariest, most heart-wrenching, but most reassuring part of the testing results for us. The number of where she should be performing and where she was. Scores in some subtests in single digits and teens. Our psych said that if her issues were well-remediated, someone new retesting her before high school might never know there had been issues with reading in 3rd. But failing to remediate, even though she could technically read and perform on average/composite "at grade level" (her good comprehension, etc. scores pulled up the frighteningly low scores in other subtests), the effects would be catastrophic for her academically over time. Her overall scores also meant our school district wouldn't do anything for her except maybe give her access to the "reading resource room." So it's all on us! No pressure, right? ;)

 

Oh, and speed drills in math--that may be something she will struggle with. When we introduce a new math skill, I pull out the hundred multiplication chart and give it to her. Otherwise her working memory is focused on retrieval and not learning the new stuff. Memorizing times tables can be really tough for dyslexics. Since DD's diagnosis, my dad has realized he has it too. He thought he wasn't smart enough for college and went to technical school. Very engineering-minded. He's been successful and is happy, but he said he wonders if he could have been an engineer instead of a technician. He also remembered my grandfather bonking him on the head with a pencil to get him to memorize his times tables. He much prefers my hundred chart method. ;) Anyway, there are posts here on times tables, etc. help!